Sexual harassment at TAM?! - Page 93

cornsail · 9th August 2012, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

For myself I tend moderate center-right. I tend social liberal, but I don't get all upset about abortion or GLBT, etc.; and fiscally I've just thown my hands up at the whole thing and have resigned myself to hoping we don't have a Depession in my lifetime. Oddly enough, on the Internet I tend to argue most with far right Conservatives because of the environment I live in. Perhaps if I lived in Seattle, Boston or San Francisco and were surrounded by more liberals than conservatives, as I am in Dallas, I'd be more inclinded to argue with them.

This gets back to something I was going to mention a long time ago on this thread - we're not all the same and it's a mistake for any of us to think that other skeptics are going to feel like we do about every subject. Whenever someone in this thread has prefaced a comment with "I just thought other skeptics..." or some other permutation of that mentality, I just have to shake my head.

We're not all the same.

Yeah I just meant on average. Center-rights skeptics certainly aren't rare.

Doubt · 9th August 2012, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by cornsail

Yeah I just meant on average. Center-rights skeptics certainly aren't rare.

Fewer than what you would find in a sample of the general US population. Libertarians seem to be more common among skeptics than the general population. However not by much. I suspect a lot of skeptics that might have started off as main stream conservatives end up as libertarians.

At either TAM 7 or 8, Shermer tried to sell the audience on libertarianism. He asked for a show of hands of those that were libertarian or libertarian leaning. Not many hands went up. His sales pitch seemed to be a failure as well.

The Central Scrutinizer · 9th August 2012, 02:16 PM

Mods, can you change the title of this thread to "Sexual harassment at TAM 2012?!", to differentiate it from the new one we'll need for the next TAM?

Verklagekasper · 10th August 2012, 04:10 AM

Perhaps the thread should just be renamed into "The war against TAM", telling by Pharyngula's "On strategy" section:

Quote:

The Revolution Will Not Be Polite: The Issue of Nice vs. Good by Rachael at the Social Justice League is an article explaining that "niceness" is not a virtue in itself, and explaining the unwillingness of many social justice activists to respond well to calls for politeness.

Quote:

[Activist Modus Operandi] Methods of Communication by Kinsey Hope at Genderbitch discusses four different styles of activist communication (Nuker, Appeaser, Emoter, and Logic Bomber) and describes some advantages and pitfalls of each.

The latter is an awkward documentation of internet guerilla fantasies. Nonetheless, it got nothing but praise and made it into PZ Myer's strategy list. Go figure:

Quote:

Have Nukers, Appeasers, Logic Bombers and Emoters present within your activist network, working for the needs of your group. Make sure you have at least some switchers around and people who walk middle lines. Having someone for every context is always a good idea and will maximize your success.
...
Jabbing at people because you think their Nuking is violent and wrong or because you think their Appeasement is an utter useless waste is not acceptable. The infighting divides us and it’s part of why we’re staying conquered.
...
Tag Team: Using multiple methods of communication in your AMO or having different AMO Communicators to back you up when you’re in the field or on the front lines maximizes your potential. If you do a little bit of Nuking and the person is getting pissy and whiny or seems to be withdrawing, call in an Appeaser to put it in gentle terms. If you’re getting ignored completely as an Appeaser, call in an air strike from the Nukers to get the attention centered on your movement’s needs. Logic Bombers and Emoters working together are especially invincible, because what works better than rational arguments mixed with things that tug your heartstrings? Remember, the stakes are intensely high. It is worth it to manipulate the majority, because chances are that’s the only way we’re going to get what we need.
...
And that concludes this bit of meta activism. Understanding how our (and their) methods work is the best way to maximize our power, reach and effect. Never forget that.

Kevin_Lowe · 11th August 2012, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

I wasn't talking about "politically to the left of the middle." I am a politically to the left of the middle. I was talking about agenda-driven politically correct leftists like Myers and Watson (and some of the other FT bloggers) who would dictate what the acceptably "correct" form of atheism/skepticism is.

If you've been involved in any kind of progressive political activism, you may have met people like this and you would know why this attitude is poison.

Nice try, but what you actually said was "It seems that the Atheist community is resolutely in the left/socialist camp though". Pretending now that you were just attacking three particular bloggers, who aren't representative of the atheist community, isn't going to fly.

Walter Ego · 11th August 2012, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe

Nice try, but what you actually said was "It seems that the Atheist community is resolutely in the left/socialist camp though". Pretending now that you were just attacking three particular bloggers, who aren't representative of the atheist community, isn't going to fly.

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Originally Posted by WillyWonka

I would rather like to see the skeptics community as apolitical. It seems that the Atheist community is resolutely in the left/socialist camp though.

I did say WW may have gotten that idea from people like PZ Myers, RW and some of the Freethought bloggers. I never said that PZ and his gang of four or five are representative of the "atheist community" (whatever that may be.)

Kevin_Lowe · 12th August 2012, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

I think you have me confused with someone else.

I did say WW may have gotten that idea from people like PZ Myers, RW and some of the Freethought bloggers. I never said that PZ and his gang of four or five are representative of the "atheist community" (whatever that may be.)

Ah, my apologies. I did indeed lose track of who said what.

9th August 2012, 07:26 AM	#3682
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,447	Originally Posted by cornsail Yeah I just meant on average. Center-rights skeptics certainly aren't rare. Fewer than what you would find in a sample of the general US population. Libertarians seem to be more common among skeptics than the general population. However not by much. I suspect a lot of skeptics that might have started off as main stream conservatives end up as libertarians. At either TAM 7 or 8, Shermer tried to sell the audience on libertarianism. He asked for a show of hands of those that were libertarian or libertarian leaning. Not many hands went up. His sales pitch seemed to be a failure as well.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,447	__________________ Doubt world tour locations: Mostly home for now. No international travel scheduled other than the Galapagos trip in March. Disclaimer: Not a high energy scientist!

9th August 2012, 02:16 PM	#3683
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,277	Mods, can you change the title of this thread to "Sexual harassment at TAM 2012?!", to differentiate it from the new one we'll need for the next TAM?
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

11th August 2012, 04:06 AM	#3685
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,283	Originally Posted by Walter Ego I wasn't talking about "politically to the left of the middle." I am a politically to the left of the middle. I was talking about agenda-driven politically correct leftists like Myers and Watson (and some of the other FT bloggers) who would dictate what the acceptably "correct" form of atheism/skepticism is. If you've been involved in any kind of progressive political activism, you may have met people like this and you would know why this attitude is poison. Nice try, but what you actually said was "It seems that the Atheist community is resolutely in the left/socialist camp though". Pretending now that you were just attacking three particular bloggers, who aren't representative of the atheist community, isn't going to fly.
	__________________ Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander

11th August 2012, 09:26 PM	#3686
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe Nice try, but what you actually said was "It seems that the Atheist community is resolutely in the left/socialist camp though". Pretending now that you were just attacking three particular bloggers, who aren't representative of the atheist community, isn't going to fly. I think you have me confused with someone else. Originally Posted by WillyWonka I would rather like to see the skeptics community as apolitical. It seems that the Atheist community is resolutely in the left/socialist camp though. I did say WW may have gotten that idea from people like PZ Myers, RW and some of the Freethought bloggers. I never said that PZ and his gang of four or five are representative of the "atheist community" (whatever that may be.)
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 11th August 2012 at 09:30 PM.

12th August 2012, 06:20 AM	#3687
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,283	Originally Posted by Walter Ego I think you have me confused with someone else. I did say WW may have gotten that idea from people like PZ Myers, RW and some of the Freethought bloggers. I never said that PZ and his gang of four or five are representative of the "atheist community" (whatever that may be.) Ah, my apologies. I did indeed lose track of who said what.
	__________________ Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander

9th August 2012, 06:24 AM	#3681
cornsail Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ohio Posts: 2,693	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner For myself I tend moderate center-right. I tend social liberal, but I don't get all upset about abortion or GLBT, etc.; and fiscally I've just thown my hands up at the whole thing and have resigned myself to hoping we don't have a Depession in my lifetime. Oddly enough, on the Internet I tend to argue most with far right Conservatives because of the environment I live in. Perhaps if I lived in Seattle, Boston or San Francisco and were surrounded by more liberals than conservatives, as I am in Dallas, I'd be more inclinded to argue with them. This gets back to something I was going to mention a long time ago on this thread - we're not all the same and it's a mistake for any of us to think that other skeptics are going to feel like we do about every subject. Whenever someone in this thread has prefaced a comment with "I just thought other skeptics..." or some other permutation of that mentality, I just have to shake my head. We're not all the same. Yeah I just meant on average. Center-rights skeptics certainly aren't rare.

10th August 2012, 04:10 AM	#3684
Verklagekasper Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 365	Perhaps the thread should just be renamed into "The war against TAM", telling by Pharyngula's "On strategy" section: Quote: The Revolution Will Not Be Polite: The Issue of Nice vs. Good by Rachael at the Social Justice League is an article explaining that "niceness" is not a virtue in itself, and explaining the unwillingness of many social justice activists to respond well to calls for politeness. Quote: [Activist Modus Operandi] Methods of Communication by Kinsey Hope at Genderbitch discusses four different styles of activist communication (Nuker, Appeaser, Emoter, and Logic Bomber) and describes some advantages and pitfalls of each. The latter is an awkward documentation of internet guerilla fantasies. Nonetheless, it got nothing but praise and made it into PZ Myer's strategy list. Go figure: Quote: Have Nukers, Appeasers, Logic Bombers and Emoters present within your activist network, working for the needs of your group. Make sure you have at least some switchers around and people who walk middle lines. Having someone for every context is always a good idea and will maximize your success. ... Jabbing at people because you think their Nuking is violent and wrong or because you think their Appeasement is an utter useless waste is not acceptable. The infighting divides us and it’s part of why we’re staying conquered. ... Tag Team: Using multiple methods of communication in your AMO or having different AMO Communicators to back you up when you’re in the field or on the front lines maximizes your potential. If you do a little bit of Nuking and the person is getting pissy and whiny or seems to be withdrawing, call in an Appeaser to put it in gentle terms. If you’re getting ignored completely as an Appeaser, call in an air strike from the Nukers to get the attention centered on your movement’s needs. Logic Bombers and Emoters working together are especially invincible, because what works better than rational arguments mixed with things that tug your heartstrings? Remember, the stakes are intensely high. It is worth it to manipulate the majority, because chances are that’s the only way we’re going to get what we need. ... And that concludes this bit of meta activism. Understanding how our (and their) methods work is the best way to maximize our power, reach and effect. Never forget that.