The Stoned Ape Theory of Human Evolution - Terrence Mckenna

[Zeuzzz]

The thread has majorly won.

The theory has been battered.

A couple of those against points I wrote tongue in cheek to paraphrase some of the silliest replies here and why they were likely said ... which is why they seemed stupid.

I struggled to find many concrete, theory falsifying, reasons against if I'm honest. Far more in support, speculative as some may still be.

If I could prove each speculative or subjective point what would happen to the theory then?

Would you post that hand clapping smiley?

I thought most models to explain the evolution of the human brain actually support this theory rather than contradict it.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

The thread has majorly won.

The thread hasn't really STARTED yet. You continue to refuse to either show the prove the most fundamental points of your hypothesis, or admit failure. Those are your options, Zeuzzz. Pick one, and we can actually start a discussion.

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A couple of those against points I wrote tongue in cheek to paraphrase some of the silliest replies here

Yeah, but, see, here's the thing: you confused which ones were silly and which weren't.

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I struggled to find many concrete, theory falsifying, reasons against if I'm honest.

This is called shifting the burden of proof. It's not up to us to prove you wrong. The assumption is that there's nothing to talk about, and it's up to you to prove that there is something worth discussing. You've utterly failed to do so. Again, we don't NEED to prove you wrong. YOU need to prove you RIGHT. If you can't do that it doesn't matter what we say, you're still wrong.

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If I could prove each speculative or subjective point what would happen to the theory then?

We're right back where we are: You haven't proven that this event happened, so discussing the impacts of the event are meaningless. That's what I realized when I stopped addressing your "for" column. Every single point in that column may be true--but unless you can prove it ACTUALLY HAPPENED, it's all irrelevant.

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I thought most models to explain the evolution of the human brain actually support this theory rather than contradict it.

Completely irrelevant. By your logic most models to explain the evolutionof the human brain actually support alien intervention--after all, you can't disprove it! That's why I'm harping on this so much: you are committing a basic fallacy, akin to those committed by Creationists, ancient alien believers, and the rest.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

What is the general consensus on what constitutes definite evidence to explain the unprecedented sudden evolution of neurophysiological systems like the neocortex ?

Surely since the time scale is so large and there are so many variables all you really have are a handful of potential falsifiable theories to consider ?

No one is giving much good evidence that there is one theory with enough support to rule out others.

Is the sudden evolution of the human neocortex in the last hundred thousand or so years really the most unprecedented change to a higher animal in the entire fossil record? I know it's rare but I'll be surprised if it's the only example.

Sorry for the three question marks. Hope you don't mind?

A. The neo cortex did not arise 'all of a sudden'.
B. That is no reason to give your idea any merit.
C. the development of human brains is hypothesized to come about as follows
upright gait>narrowing pelvis>>neotany of infants>>>brain developmet of neonates becomes more brain development

Please note
-the upright gait is a fact of development over time
-the narrowing of the pelvis is established in a loose fashion
-the neotany of humans is well established

[Zeuzzz]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Completely irrelevant. By your logic most models to explain the evolutionof the human brain actually support alien intervention--after all, you can't disprove it! That's why I'm harping on this so much: you are committing a basic fallacy, akin to those committed by Creationists, ancient alien believers, and the rest.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

I thought most models to explain the evolution of the human brain actually support this theory rather than contradict it.

Lets take a look at the primary models. Evolution of intelligence wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...ligence#Models

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Social brain hypothesis

The social brain hypothesis was proposed by British anthropologist Robin Dunbar, who argues that human intelligence did not evolve primarily as a means to solve ecological problems, but rather intelligence evolved as a means of surviving and reproducing in large and complex social groups. Some of the behaviors associated with living in large groups include reciprocal altruism, deception and coalition formation. These group dynamics relate to Theory of Mind or the ability to understand the thoughts and emotions of others, though Dunbar himself admits in the same book that it is not the flocking itself that causes intelligence to evolve (as shown by ruminants).[6]

Dunbar argues that when the size of a social group increases, the number of different relationships in the group may increase by orders of magnitude. Chimpanzees live in groups of about 50 individuals whereas humans typically have a social circle of about 150 people, which is now referred to as Dunbar's number. According to the social brain hypothesis, when hominids started living in large groups, selection favored greater intelligence. As evidence, Dunbar cites a relationship between neocortex size and group size of various mammals.[6] However, meerkats have far more social relationships than their small brain capacity would suggest.[7] Another hypothesis is that it is actually intelligence that causes social relationships to become more complex, because intelligent individuals are more difficult to learn to know.[8]

There are also studies that show that Dunbar's number is not the upper limit of the number of social relationships in humans either.[9]

Bolded are the parts I think psychoactive use could have been the missing causative factor. As 4-ho-dmt binds to the prefrontal cortex by releasing serotonin you have increased density, which usually means increased or altered perceptual function, activity and neural connections.

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Sexual selection

This model is proposed by Geoffrey Miller who argues that human intelligence is unnecessarily sophisticated for the needs of hunter-gatherers to survive. He argues that the manifestations of intelligence such as language, music and art did not evolve because of their utilitarian value to the survival of ancient hominids. Rather, intelligence may have been a fitness indicator. Hominids would have been selected for greater intelligence as a proxy for healthy genes and a positive feedback loop of sexual selection would have led to the evolution of human intelligence in a relatively short period.[10]

A sexual selection theory must explain why both sexes are intelligent.

Both genders ingested similar due to potency and plentiful supply, both were effected the same, each gender started to see similarities instead of differences, boom of mirror neurons, more time for thought and socializing.

And naked mushroom parties may explain why they stopped wearing clothes and evolved furry coats.*

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Sexual selection for intelligence and judging ability can act on indicators of success, such as highly visible displays of wealth ([b]cattle, farmland, servants[b], etc.)

Kind of answers not only the farming issue above but also the fact that all psilocybin containing mushrooms have a rather insatiable preference for growing under cattle dung on farm land, or just general farm land with plenty of manure. They spring up on farms worldwide before anywhere else, and in greater numbers than other areas due to the animal manure.

I expect the whole reason we started farming cows was to in fact grow mushrooms from their manure.*

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Ecological dominance-social competition model

A predominant model describing the evolution of human intelligence is ecological dominance-social competition (EDSC) [13] explained by Mark V. Flinn, David C. Geary and Carol V. Ward based mainly on work by Richard D. Alexander. According to the model, human intelligence was able to evolve to significant levels because of the combination of increasing domination over habitat and increasing importance of social interactions. As a result the primary selective pressure for increasing human intelligence shifted from learning to master the natural world to competition for dominance among members or groups of its own species.

Mental social structures develop, more sociability. Ingesting psychedelics would greatly enhance two things, depending on subjective effects. If the change of mind is fearful then support would be sought from it's group, increasing the social bonds; or the weak would be rejected and taken out the gene pool. If pleasant in high doses then it would likely result in prolonged play time, developing social enjoyment, laughing and culture; or could just make them lazy confused targets for predators.*

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Intelligence as a disease resistance sign

Thus, widespread, virulent, and archaic infections are greatly involved in natural selection for cognitive abilities. People infected with parasites may have brain damage and obvious maladaptive behavior in addition to visible signs of disease. Smarter people can more skillfully learn to distinguish safe non-polluted water and food from unsafe kinds and learn to distinguish mosquito infested areas from safe areas. Smarter people can more skillfully find and develop safe food sources and living environments. Given this situation, preference for smarter child-bearing/rearing partners increases the chance that their descendants will inherit the best resistance alleles, not only for immune system resistance to disease, but also smarter brains for learning skills in avoiding disease and selecting nutritious food. When people search for mates based on their success, wealth, reputation, disease-free body appearance, or psychological traits such as benevolence or confidence; the effect is to select for superior intelligence that results in superior disease resistance.

The more adventurous the nutritional diet and the cleverer the person the higher the survival chances. Psychedelics would be a type of medicine, to them, that only the cleverest would be able to obtain, along with the more essential nutrients.

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Nutritional status

Higher cognitive functioning develops better in an environment with adequate nutrition,[19] and diets deficient in iron, zinc, protein, iodine, B vitamins, omega 3 fatty acids, magnesium and other nutrients can result in lower intelligence[20][21] either in the mother during pregnancy or in the child during development. While these inputs did not have an effect on the evolution of intelligence they do govern its expression. A higher intelligence could be a signal that an individual comes from and lives in a physical and social environment where nutrition levels are high, whereas a lower intelligence could imply a child (and/or the child's mother) comes from a physical and social environment where nutritional levels are low.

Nutritional and dietary variety = win, sticking to usual ape diets = loose.

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Previc[22] emphasizes the contribution of nutritional factors, especially meat and shellfish consumption, to elevations of dopaminergic activity in the brain, which may have been responsible for the evolution of human intelligence since dopamine is crucial to working memory, cognitive shifting, abstract, distant concepts, and other hallmarks of advanced intelligence.

That statement seems dubious. Just read some of his chapters here. Seems like he's got just as much of a fetish about dopamine as the pharmaceutical companies did about serotonin for decades ... pseudo-pharmacology.

'Blocking serotonin re-uptake must be the cure for depression and anxiety, thus more is better' ... < pretty doubtful nowadays.

Same in this case, but maybe worse, as excess dopamine is not simply going to increase intelligence motor ability or perception, it will alter huge amounts of cognitive function, many detrimentally too. Linked to all sorts of mental diseases and motor control conditions. It's more about homeostasis of the levels of it than 'more is better', and how well connected the most advantageous behaviors reward pathways are to it's endogenous amino acids ligands and precursors.

Every perceptual altering drug effects dopaminergic systems. So when he titles chapter seven as "The transition to the dopaminergic society" he's not wrong, and I agree to an extent. But assigning dopamine some sort of magical intelligence boosting property, without addressing what is actually altering the equilibrium of dopamine systems, which ones and how, seems like a cop out.

"This chapter will focus on two major historical epochs – the transition from the hunter-gatherer societies to the ancient civilizations and the dramatic expansion of the dopaminergic consciousness and lifestyle in the twentieth century. In so doing, this chapter will highlight the role of influential individuals in history who have manifested dopaminergic traits and behaviors and played important roles in shaping our modern dopaminergic world."

Consciousness does not rely exclusively on dopamine any more than it does GABA, there are hundreds of others and many are more numerous like serotonin, glutamate or glycine.

We always had dopamine, like we had blood. We just started using it differently than other primates, for some reason.

I could similarly suggest the primary reason for the development of the human brain was psilocin increasing the concentration of dopamine in the basal ganglia (which it does) throughout the species, resulting in higher dopamine and better brains. Which is just as silly a notion as his.

Dammit I'll have to buy that book now.

* Before someone comments seriously, yes, I'm mocking the theory where it fell down

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Bolded are the parts I think psychoactive use could have been the missing causative factor.

Your opinion is irrelevant because that's all it is--a mere opinion.

Also, you have to figure out how those traits arose in other taxa that didn't eat mushrooms. In the case of reciprocal altruism, for example, it's present in vampire bats.

Finally, I'd suggest that stopping your research at a Wiki page is a primary cause of your problems in regards to archaeology and evolutionary biology.

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Both genders ingested similar due to potency and plentiful supply, both were effected the same, each gender started to see similarities instead of differences, boom of mirror neurons, more time for thought and socializing.

It's telling that you completely skipped the more likely explanation: that selection for a trait in one sex caused that trait to be present in both. We're the same species, after all, and unless you're willing to argue that intelligence is carried on the Y chromosome or is recessive the trait will cross sexes.

Doesn't matter, though. You have to PROVE IT HAPPENED FIRST. All of that is for emphasis, because you are yet again ignoring that fact.

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I expect the whole reason we started farming cows was to in fact grow mushrooms from their manure.*

That's just stupid. I'm sorry, there's no other word for it. Humans have a long and--which destroys your argument--demonstrable history of eating large herd animals. It's no stretch to go from hunting to nomadic herding to animal husbandry. We see all of that in history and in modern societies. Name a single society that grows cows only for their dung.

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Mental social structures develop, more sociability. Ingesting psychedelics would greatly enhance two things,

More speculation, more ignoring the fact that you haven't demonstrated that anyone ate this stuff in the past.

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The more adventurous the nutritional diet and the cleverer the person the higher the survival chances.

You're not even trying anymore. Adventurous eaters DIED. Simple as that. Not everything is good to eat, after all, and ignoring the whole notion of foods good to eat and foods not good to eat usually leads to death. There's a reason we avoid certain things, and it's not always (or even usually, in my experience) cultural.

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That statement seems dubious.

I'm sorry, but I can't take anything you say after this serious. Your entire argument is completely unsupported and you're still militantly avoiding offering any substantiating evidence, yet you have the audacity to call someone else's claims dubious?! Clean your own house before complaining that other people are unkempt.

[Zeuzzz]

Had you not noticed I've sort of half given up with that last post?

Only thing I could talk about is my last point ... the others I could too, but I don't have evidence for them, only inferences.

[Zeuzzz]

Just stumbled on this, modern primates seem to be bigger druggies than I expected at first.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...,d.d2k&cad=rja

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Apes may even resort to recreational drugs. They eat the seeds of Kola (cola) trees, thought to be a pick-me-up of the kind found in coffee. Two hallucinogenic plants are ingested by gorillas in Equatorial Guinea and by chimpanzees in the Republic of Guinea: Alchornea floribunda and A. cordifolia (Euphorbiaceae). The apes even resort to eating the root of Tabernanthe iboga, which contains a chemical called ibogaine which has been studied by doctors for use in detox therapies.

Some have said that human medicine is true medicine because we organise and teach it. But Prof Huffmann has seen a young chimp watch its sick mother take medicine, before trying it itself.

For Prof Andrew Whiten, of St Andrews, an expert on ape culture, it is easy to conclude that the animals can learn symptoms, medicines and dosages from their peers. Take the use of Vernonia amygdalina, the constipation-countering shrub mentioned above. Prof Whiten points out that the chimpanzees are meticulous and careful to discard all but the inner pith. The outer parts are so poisonous that they often kill domestic goats unfamiliar with the forest flora - indeed, it is known as "goat killer" by the Temme people of Sierra Leone. Learning how to take this medicine "requires close observation of what mother is doing," he says. Strikingly, self-medication is found in apes across Africa. This, says Prof Whiten, probably means "it is very ancient, culturally important and spread widely".

Given that the common ancestor of chimpanzee and humans lived between seven and six million years ago, the roots of medicine are indeed prehistoric.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...6/ixworld.html

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Apes were first to get high on drugs
By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
(Filed: 26/12/2001)

HUMAN beings were not the first to use recreational drugs. Some apes take stimulants and hallucinogens, sometimes munching roots that now
show promise in treating human addicts, say scientists.

Prof Michael Huffman of the Primate Research Institute, Kyoto University and Don Cousins, author of The Magnificent Gorilla, report
in a forthcoming issue of the journal African Study Monographs that apes may indulge in drugs - from a pick-me-up of the kind found in coffee to hallucinogens.

Earlier work in the journal Bioscience by Prof Huffman suggested that the practice of medicine began with our hairy ancestors: some chimps
swallow bristly, rough leaves to sweep parasites out of the gut, while others suck the bitter pith from the tree Vernonia amygdalina, which contains compounds active against parasites responsible for malaria and dysentery.

Now it seems that apes may use drugs recreationally. African apes eat the seeds of Kola trees which contain caffeine and theobromine and are legendary for their effect in preventing fatigue. They found that two hallucinogenic plants are ingested by gorillas in Equatorial Guinea and chimpanzees in the Republic of Guinea: (Alchornea floribunda and Acordifolia Euphorbiaceae).

A floribunda is used in Gabonese cults where the root has a reputation as an intoxicant and aphrodisiac. It is said to provide a state of
intense excitement followed by a deep, sometimes fatal depression.

Most intriguing, said Prof Huffman, is how local people claim to have discovered the intoxicating effects of the plant by watching animals,
including gorillas, go into a frenzy of fear, as if being chased by invisible objects, after eating the roots.

The apes even resort to a drugs detox. The Tabernanthe iboga root has been exploited by gorillas of Sindara on the Ngounie river, South of
Lambarene.

[cosmicaug]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Ever see how they made garum?

Hey! Don't knock it 'till you try it!

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Hey! Don't knock it 'till you try it!

I tried the quick version (reduce grape juice to 1/10 its original volume, add anchovy paste to taste). Not only that, I fed it to a professor. Got an A, because as he put it anyone crazy enough to pull that stunt either was going to ace the class or fail it, and he went for seconds so he couldn't fail me! Still can't drink grape juice, though.

[DPR]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

We need more pretend poet scientists in that case. And general science communicators.

The amount of people he got interested in science, maths, philosophy and psychopharmacology that never would have been is probably in the tens of thousands. Dennis Mckenna is forever lecturing students in ethnopharmacology that say the only reason they went to uni was due to his impact on them.

He was better at culture and the human condition than science, but he planted some seeds.

Terence McKenna bad mouthed scientists and the methods of science all the time. I can't post links yet, but search on youtube for 'Mckenna on science'.

[quarky]

Science is remarkably good at being bad-mouthed.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by quarky

Science is remarkably good at being bad-mouthed.

What what you say about *********** science man

[Libra]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Just stumbled on this, modern primates seem to be bigger druggies than I expected at first.

So what ? The Amazonian people have observed the Jaguar consume the leaves of the Banisteriopsis caapi plant and feel effects of it, presumably the effects of the beta-carboline harmala alkaloids. They believe the consumption of their ayahuasca concoction (utilising the MAOIs in B. caapi to enable oral activity of the DMT in the Psychotria viridis plant) prepares them for the subsequent hunt, something that was apparently taught to them by the Jaguar. On answering the question on how the knowledge came about of adding the P. viridis plant (containing the main ingredient DMT) to the brew, which would be orally inactive in the event of consuming on it's own, they make mention of the "plant spirit" that lead them to it.

All very interesting, but lacks as much logic and reason as what your stoned ape theory does . . .

The entheogenic-inspired discussions regarding the proposed link to various religions, even being the fundamental aspect on which some of these religions are based on, makes for a slightly more balanced topic where sound arguments can be made from both sides.

Even the impact and role of psychoactive substances on the modern man's progress since the agricultural revolution and various cultural influences makes for a more balanced topic.

A discussion in the lines of the acute visionary-states that possibly inspired some of the ancient San rock-art would also be much more balanced.

You might find it much more stimulating to initiate such topics that would allow healthy debate, as opposed to the one-sided nature of the currently discussed topic ?

Just my 5c.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

...Doesn't matter, though. You have to PROVE IT HAPPENED FIRST. All of that is for emphasis, because you are yet again ignoring that fact. ...

Yes. I enjoy reading the material Zeuzzz posts, but Dinwar is right.

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I tried the quick version (reduce grape juice to 1/10 its original volume, add anchovy paste to taste). Not only that, I fed it to a professor. Got an A, because as he put it anyone crazy enough to pull that stunt either was going to ace the class or fail it, and he went for seconds so he couldn't fail me! Still can't drink grape juice, though.

The Barcelona Cathedral (not the Sagrada Familia, but the real one) is actually built on the remains of a Roman garum factory. Visitors can stroll through an excellent guided tour of it.
In the cloister there there is yet another relic of the good old days- a flock of 12 geese! [/derail]

[Dinwar]

Quick semi-related question: I know that fossil pollen is nearly indestructable--you can use the stuff to determine floral composition in Mesozoic rocks. Are fungal spores similar? I've never heard of fossil fungal spores, but then again I've never paid much attention to anything outside the animal kingdom. If they do tend to stick around that might be another way to test this idea--see if there is any evidence of correlation between the range expansions of humans and these fungi.

[cosmicaug]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I tried the quick version (reduce grape juice to 1/10 its original volume, add anchovy paste to taste). Not only that, I fed it to a professor. Got an A, because as he put it anyone crazy enough to pull that stunt either was going to ace the class or fail it, and he went for seconds so he couldn't fail me! Still can't drink grape juice, though.

Grape juice? I just figured the authentic way is done pretty much the same way as fish sauce is made in Southeast Asia (so in my mind, the "quick way" is to head to your nearest Asian grocer --though even major grocery store chains in the US tend to be stocked with the stuff these days). In fact, you can actually visit an archaeological site open to the public in southern Spain called Baelo Claudia and see the stone pits in which garum gaditanum was made for yourself (as I did a few years ago).

I did see one or two alternative recipes mentioned in a discussion of this in a book about the Roman cookery of Apicius (sp?) but it was a gift for someone else so I don't even have it as a reference. Maybe it suggested grape juice but I don't remember it?

[cosmicaug]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Adventurous eaters DIED. Simple as that. Not everything is good to eat, after all, and ignoring the whole notion of foods good to eat and foods not good to eat usually leads to death.

There's a saying: there are old mushroom hunters and there are bold mushroom hunters but there are no old, bold mushroom hunters.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

... In fact, you can actually visit an archaeological site open to the public in southern Spain called Baelo Claudia and see the stone pits in which garum gaditanum was made for yourself (as I did a few years ago).

Thanks, cosmicaug! Baelo Claudia is now on my must-see list for my next trip to that part of the Penninsula.