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Dave Rogers · 18th July 2012, 01:38 AM

A comment on another thread has prompted me to ask a question that's been floating round the back of my mind for some time.

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

High school is not human society. For all intents and purposes, it is zoo with slightly improved housekeeping, worse food and poor security.

People going through puberty have little or no relationship experience to draw from, basically zero control over their social surroundings, are victims of BRUTAL stigmatization, and their partially formed frontal lobes are marinading in brain chemicals that would OD a Dead Head.

I'm in the UK, and I see two very different models of high school. On the one hand, there's the classic American high school, as presented in all sorts of TV shows, with Glee at the front of the pack but showing up as a standard TV trope as very much the kind of place KingMerv00 describes. Teachers are barely in control, bullies are looked up to, and anyone with any kind of intelligence and sensitivity is brutalised, victimised, ostracised and several other kinds of -ised. And this is seen as normal, inevitable, even necessary as some kind of rite of passage.

On the other hand, there's the reality I've actually experienced in the UK, both in my own schooling and my kids'. Yes, there is bullying, but it's seen not as an inevitable fact of life that kids should just man up and live with, but as wrongdoing to be addressed and corrected; and, for the most part, it is at least addressed. Not all schools succeed - the big warning for me is posters in the hallway saying things like "There is no bullying in this school" (yes, I've actually seen that) - but for the most part schools have a policy for dealing with bullying, and in my experience they implement that policy. When any of my kids have been bullied, the school has taken it seriously, and it's been stopped. And these are not expensive private schools I'm talking about, but perfectly ordinary state schools in a fairly ordinary town. I'm sure there are schools in rougher inner-city areas that are a whole lot worse, but I've never come across the attitude that bullying is an inevitable fact of life and can never be stopped. And the result has been that my kids have been able to settle into high school, live happy lives and concentrate on actually learning useful things.

So I find myself wondering: is the TV trope realistic, and is it more widespread in the UK than I've seen? And if it is that way, should it be that way; do people think this level of abuse is somehow beneficial or necessary? Is there a school of thought that says that the schools I know are letting people down and softening them by protecting them too much?

Wide-ranging discussion and tangential thoughts welcome.

Dave

UNLoVedRebel · 18th July 2012, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

So I find myself wondering: is the TV trope realistic,

Ummm.........no

UNLoVedRebel · 18th July 2012, 02:23 AM

In the U.S., all five year old kids are wise-cracking smartasses with their own punchlines.

Safe-Keeper · 18th July 2012, 02:40 AM

Quote:

I'm in the UK, and I see two very different models of high school. On the one hand, there's the classic American high school, as presented in all sorts of TV shows, with Glee at the front of the pack but showing up as a standard TV trope as very much the kind of place KingMerv00 describes. Teachers are barely in control, bullies are looked up to, and anyone with any kind of intelligence and sensitivity is brutalised, victimised, ostracised and several other kinds of -ised. And this is seen as normal, inevitable, even necessary as some kind of rite of passage.

Umm, no.

wobs · 18th July 2012, 02:48 AM

When I was in school here in the UK in the 80s, I can state with 100% certainty that my school failed to tackle bullying. Leaving school at 16 was one of the happiest days of my life.

The guess that was the price I paid for not conforming to their norms.

UNLoVedRebel · 18th July 2012, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by wobs

The guess that was the price I paid for not conforming to their norms.

You should've grown a mullet like everyone else.

Dancing David · 18th July 2012, 04:44 AM

Um, wow, how can we judge a heterogeneous system on a single metric?

I know that the bully issue is different than when I went to school in the mid 70s, it is less in some school districts than it was then.

However bullying is an unfortunate, and not inevitable part of society. There is much less overt meanness than when I was young, the percentage of adults who view physical violence as a resolution has decreased.

However the subtle bullying still exists and in some ways is amplified by modern technology. Small schools still grind many students into homogeneity, as do small towns. Some parts of society think that ridiculing others is the height of entertainment.

In terms of Glee, if you threw a slushie on someone, you would be suspended.

Cainkane1 · 18th July 2012, 05:14 AM

Well in the USA during the 60's you were on your own. The bullys ran the school actually. I saw teeth knocked out, shiners and fat lips on a daily basis. Kids were robbed of their lunch money and shoved and spit on.

The good old days were not so good.

Tsukasa Buddha · 18th July 2012, 06:15 AM

Glee is not realistic. At all. Ever.

DrDave · 18th July 2012, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Glee is not realistic. At all. Ever.

What? Schools don't break out into spontaneous song and dance routings several times a day. I'm shocked, SHOCKED!

Dave Rogers · 18th July 2012, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Glee is not realistic. At all. Ever.

I don't suppose it is, but it's a good example of the "bullying will usually be tolerated" trope that seems to be widely used in American TV. And I know these tropes are often totally disconnected from reality, which is why I was asking the question. I've seen some people on this forum seeming to work from the assumption that anybody who's intelligent, cultured, sensitive or in any way different will have been bullied extensively at high school, and I wondered how much that's actually the case.

Dave

Monketey Ghost · 18th July 2012, 06:24 AM

I had a grade-school bully. It was a Catholic school, but at recess there was no authority on the playground. I was pummeled mercilessly; twice, the guy just beat on me until he got tired, with a crowd of every other kid standing around in a circle.

After the last beating, my mom told me to hit him in the face as hard as I could next time, and he would leave me alone. I had been using the "cover-up-and-whine-that-you-didn't-deserve-it" defense.

I didn't even wait for a next time; as soon as I went into class the next day I tackled him off his chair and hit him all Ralphy style. Kid never bothered me again, and in fact I helped him through a troubled time a few years later.

Sir Robin Goodfellow · 18th July 2012, 06:25 AM

From what I experienced, it was the earlier grades were where the Lord of the Flies mentality was the worst, around the ages of twelve and thirteen. There seemed to be more maturity at the high school level. I was ignored for the most part in high school, but I got spit on, had rocks thrown at me, had property destroyed, and the like in the two years prior. This was in Canada, however, I can't speak for my American friends.

But yes, bullying was seen as a normal rite of passage. The cool kids are good at sports, and have lots of friends, why can't you try to be more like them? Words can't hurt you, get over it. Stand up for yourself (but don't actually do anything, not even in self-defence, because you will be punished).

Good times.

wobs · 18th July 2012, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel

You should've grown a mullet like everyone else.

Might have helped, but the advice from adults at the time was "tell them to get lost". Gee thanks, so helpful, why didn't I think of that.

Teacher incompetence in dealing with such issues was mind blowing.

It might be better these days. We visited the school years later as part of its anniversary, and there were posters addressing the issues, looking as if they actually had a system in place.

Tiktaalik · 18th July 2012, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

I don't suppose it is, but it's a good example of the "bullying will usually be tolerated" trope that seems to be widely used in American TV. And I know these tropes are often totally disconnected from reality, which is why I was asking the question. I've seen some people on this forum seeming to work from the assumption that anybody who's intelligent, cultured, sensitive or in any way different will have been bullied extensively at high school, and I wondered how much that's actually the case.

Dave

I've never seen Glee, but your description of the "typical American high school" sounded a lot like the one I went to. Some of the teachers were bullies. Kids were physically harmed on a daily basis by their peers. Poorer kids had their jackets stolen for fun (and never returned) - and it was brutally cold. Teachers formed alliances with certain students, possibly to avoid bullying themselves. School buses were some of the worst places, but you could be beaten up in the hallways, bathrooms, lunchroom, or outside as well. Verbal harassment was constant and terrible - really crass. People with any kind of disability were treated especially badly - I remember a kid with a limp who would be tripped and shoved every time he walked down the hall (he committed suicide, by the way). I had a deaf friend who was similarly tortured, things ripped out of her hands, torn up, thrown in the mud, destroyed. I'm glad to hear not everyone went to places like that, but it does exist.

Pope130 · 18th July 2012, 06:47 AM

My experience in US schools in the '60s and early '70s was much like Sir Robin mentioned above. In grade school there were bullies who picked on those they perceived as weak, in high school the "In crowd" just ignored the weak.

Currently there seems to be less physical violence, but possibly more psychological violence. When I was in high school I can recall only one suicide (a homosexual who was outed). Now, suicide as the result of harassment seems more common. It's possible that it is just more reported though. Suicides in general back then were often publicly reported as accidents.

angrysoba · 18th July 2012, 06:58 AM

There's loads of bullying in Japanese high schools. And a lot of suicides too.

Many students first of all stop going to school and then finally stop leaving the house.

Modified · 18th July 2012, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

and anyone with any kind of intelligence and sensitivity is brutalised, victimised, ostracised and several other kinds of -ised.

Nah, you can be intelligent and sensitive as long as you are very attractive or a male who plays one of the popular sports, and don't associate with non-popular kids.

Like others have said, I found grade school bullying to be much worse than high school. Part of that was probably that my grade school class had 26 students, while my high school class had 450. With less frequent contact, it's harder to bully someone.

Weak Kitten · 18th July 2012, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

There's loads of bullying in Japanese high schools. And a lot of suicides too.

Many students first of all stop going to school and then finally stop leaving the house.

There's a Japanese game called Persona 3 which at first seems to just be standard magical realism fare. Then after a while I realized that the whole thing was an allegory for teen suicide in the Japanese school system. It's mostly symbolic, there are only a few actual deaths, but it's strange how chilling even a stylized fantasy about such things can be.

DragonLady · 18th July 2012, 08:27 AM

Quote:

I don't suppose it is, but it's a good example of the "bullying will usually be tolerated" trope that seems to be widely used in American TV. And I know these tropes are often totally disconnected from reality, which is why I was asking the question. I've seen some people on this forum seeming to work from the assumption that anybody who's intelligent, cultured, sensitive or in any way different will have been bullied extensively at high school, and I wondered how much that's actually the case.

I attended over 40 different schools growing up. I switched about once every two weeks -different state, different school, different life.

In my experience, about 1/5 of the schools emulated that model. The rest were better; but bullying was always a constant problem.

High school wasn't as bad as grade school, but putting the whole thing behind me was one of the happiest events of my life.

Halfcentaur · 18th July 2012, 08:35 AM

I had an odd high school experience. I was bullied and picked on a lot in elementary and junior high/middle school, but around high school I got more of an identity and made more friends. Bullying did still go on, but not that bad. Mostly you just had to look out for the gangster wannabes in their suburban gangs, playing crips and bloods.

But I dropped out of high school in freshman year for about 4 years.

When I came back to finish school as an 18 year old freshman, it was a radically different place. In my earlier experience, everyone sort of segregated into clicks, the skaters, the stoners, the punks, the jocks, the preps, the gansters, etc. There was spill over between these groups, but still it was very segregated.

But upon my return to school around 1998, those clicks had all dissolved and melted into each other. Everyone was mostly friendly to everybody, people were very out going, there was nobody at all ditching school and hanging out in the streets and forests as they used to surrounding the area, there was not even a smoker's corner any longer. It was like everybody who wasn't wanting to go to school was gone.

I found it very strange. I saw no bullying in the 2 final years of school I attended. Everybody was friendly and clean cut for the most part.

fitzgibbon · 18th July 2012, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

is the TV trope realistic

As others have said and speaking as part of the problem, no trope of any stripe on the idiot box is realistic. Ever.

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 18th July 2012, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

The good old days were not so good.

Aye that. Period sitcoms are written by the bullies

Fitz

Ferguson · 18th July 2012, 08:51 AM

I don't think TV is a good source for actual high school behavior. Protagonists will often play pranks, scams, etc. on the bungling principal, rival students, or on the school grounds just for laughs, that in real life would result in suspension, expulsion, assault charges, trespassing charges, etc...

That said there is (or was in my experience) a lot of focus on the athletes, school pride, dances/homecoming king/queen, etc. that's probably absent from countries which focus a bit more on actually educating their children.

fitzgibbon · 18th July 2012, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Sir Robin Goodfellow

From what I experienced, it was the earlier grades were where the Lord of the Flies mentality was the worst, around the ages of twelve and thirteen. There seemed to be more maturity at the high school level. I was ignored for the most part in high school, but I got spit on, had rocks thrown at me, had property destroyed, and the like in the two years prior. This was in Canada, however, I can't speak for my American friends.

But yes, bullying was seen as a normal rite of passage. The cool kids are good at sports, and have lots of friends, why can't you try to be more like them? Words can't hurt you, get over it. Stand up for yourself (but don't actually do anything, not even in self-defence, because you will be punished).

Good times.

Sounds like you and I were joined at the hip. For me, the 'good times' started from very nearly the beginning. I can't say that I have any fond memories of school save for the girl who was my first (unrequited) crush

Fitz

marksman · 18th July 2012, 11:31 AM

I was bullied mercilessly in school until I basically grew 13 inches taller over one year and stood up for myself. (Well, technically I tried standing up for myself before I grew the added height and got the crap kicked out of me.)

My daughters are in middle school now (a different one) and the atmosphere is completely different. There is little to no bullying of which I am aware. Anti-bullying policies do work if applied rationally.

So I think experiences will differ across the nation. Good policies, conscientious parents, and good administrators can make good schools.

Ziggurat · 18th July 2012, 12:58 PM

Middle school was the worst period when I was in school. But the sort of bullying portrayed on TV was pretty rare. What instead mostly happened was that social pressure stratified kids into popular and unpopular cliques. Teasing and harassment mostly just served to keep kids in their respective circles, but as long as you did that, you were generally OK. There really wasn't a lot of physical violence, because you would get in trouble for it, and as I mentioned, stick with your circle and you avoided most teasing too.

I wasn't bullied, but there was one older kid who really wanted to beat the crap out of me. He had a bad acne problem, and I called him "pizza face" because he was being a jerk. After that, he wanted to punch me every time he saw me in the hallway between classes. But it wasn't that hard to avoid him, and he wasn't willing to go all-out because he would have gotten in trouble. There was also one unpopular kid who got hit by a rock someone threw at him on his way home from school. I never learned exactly what happened to whoever did it, but I know the school administration took it seriously because they interviewed me about it since I had seen him leaving school, so they were doing a real investigation into what happened.

I hated middle school, it was an unpleasant time, but bullying wasn't that much of a problem.

theprestige · 18th July 2012, 01:09 PM

I was a bully magnet for about a year of grade school. Before and after, not so much.

My high school involved no bullying at all, as far as I could tell. The operative rite of passage was becoming a king in a clique of kings. Some cliques were more inclusive than others. Some cliques interacted and overlapped with each other to a greater extent than others.

But no, bullying wasn't really a thing that happened.

The Dark Lord · 18th July 2012, 01:35 PM

I don't recall any bullying going on at all during high school.

OnlyTellsTruths · 18th July 2012, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

I had a grade-school bully. It was a Catholic school, but at recess there was no authority on the playground. I was pummeled mercilessly; twice, the guy just beat on me until he got tired, with a crowd of every other kid standing around in a circle.

After the last beating, my mom told me to hit him in the face as hard as I could next time, and he would leave me alone. I had been using the "cover-up-and-whine-that-you-didn't-deserve-it" defense.

I didn't even wait for a next time; as soon as I went into class the next day I tackled him off his chair and hit him all Ralphy style. Kid never bothered me again, and in fact I helped him through a troubled time a few years later.

That seems like the exact opposite advice to give.... That advice wouldn't even be good if all humans were of comparable strength.

KingMerv00 · 18th July 2012, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

A comment on another thread has prompted me to ask a question...

That's my quote so I want to clarify what I meant. The discussion was about what women are attracted to. Someone mentioned their experience in high school as a bit of anecdotal evidence. My quote was a comment on the fact that high school is in no way a representation of adult relationships. I wasn't directly commenting on bullying per se and I used admittedly over the top language for effect.

I don't recall seeing much physical bullying even though I definitely qualified for the nerd clique (w00t chess club!). On the other hand, mocking and stigmatization was pretty commonplace...God help you if you were gay. (I was/am not for the record.)

Ziggurat · 18th July 2012, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

After the last beating, my mom told me to hit him in the face as hard as I could next time, and he would leave me alone. I had been using the "cover-up-and-whine-that-you-didn't-deserve-it" defense.

Arrested Development
Buster: Mom always taught us to curl up in a ball and remain motionless when confronted. That's what I did in high school when I almost got into a fight.
Michael: I think that was about being attacked by bears.

UNLoVedRebel · 18th July 2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

That's my quote so I want to clarify what I meant. The discussion was about what women are attracted to. Someone mentioned their experience in high school as a bit of anecdotal evidence. My quote was a comment on the fact that high school is in no way a representation of adult relationships. I wasn't directly commenting on bullying per se and I used admittedly over the top language for effect.

I don't recall seeing much physical bullying even though I definitely qualified for the nerd clique (w00t chess club!). On the other hand, mocking and stigmatization was pretty commonplace...God help you if you were gay. (I was/am not for the record.)

If gays had it tough, I can only imagine how Giants' fans had it.

Ziggurat · 18th July 2012, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel

If gays had it tough, I can only imagine how Giants' fans had it.

There are all sorts of politically incorrect and obscene responses one could make to that comment. But I'll just let you imagine them for yourself.

KingMerv00 · 18th July 2012, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel

If gays had it tough, I can only imagine how Giants' fans had it.

We put them in Slytherin House...that's what they named the cobra pit anyway.

Delvo · 18th July 2012, 07:04 PM

Students actually being beaten up is rare, but what isn't and could be called "bullying" is streams of mockery and insults and social ambushes, possibly punctuated by occasional physical intimidation such as invading personal space, grabbing/vandalizing personal property, bumping into the target while walking, or single light strikes. And the prime age for it is what we call "middle school" or "junior high school", which are what comes before "high school". That age range just doesn't get depicted on screen nearly as often because the students can't be portrayed by actors who are young adults. I've only experienced one school that had a serious problem with it.

18th July 2012, 01:38 AM	#1
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,907	High school bullying in the US A comment on another thread has prompted me to ask a question that's been floating round the back of my mind for some time. Originally Posted by KingMerv00 High school is not human society. For all intents and purposes, it is zoo with slightly improved housekeeping, worse food and poor security. People going through puberty have little or no relationship experience to draw from, basically zero control over their social surroundings, are victims of BRUTAL stigmatization, and their partially formed frontal lobes are marinading in brain chemicals that would OD a Dead Head. I'm in the UK, and I see two very different models of high school. On the one hand, there's the classic American high school, as presented in all sorts of TV shows, with Glee at the front of the pack but showing up as a standard TV trope as very much the kind of place KingMerv00 describes. Teachers are barely in control, bullies are looked up to, and anyone with any kind of intelligence and sensitivity is brutalised, victimised, ostracised and several other kinds of -ised. And this is seen as normal, inevitable, even necessary as some kind of rite of passage. On the other hand, there's the reality I've actually experienced in the UK, both in my own schooling and my kids'. Yes, there is bullying, but it's seen not as an inevitable fact of life that kids should just man up and live with, but as wrongdoing to be addressed and corrected; and, for the most part, it is at least addressed. Not all schools succeed - the big warning for me is posters in the hallway saying things like "There is no bullying in this school" (yes, I've actually seen that) - but for the most part schools have a policy for dealing with bullying, and in my experience they implement that policy. When any of my kids have been bullied, the school has taken it seriously, and it's been stopped. And these are not expensive private schools I'm talking about, but perfectly ordinary state schools in a fairly ordinary town. I'm sure there are schools in rougher inner-city areas that are a whole lot worse, but I've never come across the attitude that bullying is an inevitable fact of life and can never be stopped. And the result has been that my kids have been able to settle into high school, live happy lives and concentrate on actually learning useful things. So I find myself wondering: is the TV trope realistic, and is it more widespread in the UK than I've seen? And if it is that way, should it be that way; do people think this level of abuse is somehow beneficial or necessary? Is there a school of thought that says that the schools I know are letting people down and softening them by protecting them too much? Wide-ranging discussion and tangential thoughts welcome. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

18th July 2012, 02:21 AM	#2
UNLoVedRebel Hard Knocks Doctorate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 5,515	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers So I find myself wondering: is the TV trope realistic, Ummm.........no
	__________________ "All the Officialiers here typically have rancid alien avatars or else some kind of violent military-type avatar. Once again affirming my contention that 9/11 Officialiers are the most violent, murderous, group of people in the United States. Both statistically confirmed, but also anecdotally affirmed in almost every case of active pro-Officialers." - FloydGoethe

18th July 2012, 02:23 AM	#3
UNLoVedRebel Hard Knocks Doctorate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 5,515	In the U.S., all five year old kids are wise-cracking smartasses with their own punchlines.
	__________________ "All the Officialiers here typically have rancid alien avatars or else some kind of violent military-type avatar. Once again affirming my contention that 9/11 Officialiers are the most violent, murderous, group of people in the United States. Both statistically confirmed, but also anecdotally affirmed in almost every case of active pro-Officialers." - FloydGoethe

18th July 2012, 02:48 AM	#5
wobs Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 248	When I was in school here in the UK in the 80s, I can state with 100% certainty that my school failed to tackle bullying. Leaving school at 16 was one of the happiest days of my life. The guess that was the price I paid for not conforming to their norms.
wobs Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 248	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."

18th July 2012, 02:57 AM	#6
UNLoVedRebel Hard Knocks Doctorate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 5,515	Originally Posted by wobs The guess that was the price I paid for not conforming to their norms. You should've grown a mullet like everyone else.
	__________________ "All the Officialiers here typically have rancid alien avatars or else some kind of violent military-type avatar. Once again affirming my contention that 9/11 Officialiers are the most violent, murderous, group of people in the United States. Both statistically confirmed, but also anecdotally affirmed in almost every case of active pro-Officialers." - FloydGoethe

18th July 2012, 02:40 AM	#4
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,176	Quote: I'm in the UK, and I see two very different models of high school. On the one hand, there's the classic American high school, as presented in all sorts of TV shows, with Glee at the front of the pack but showing up as a standard TV trope as very much the kind of place KingMerv00 describes. Teachers are barely in control, bullies are looked up to, and anyone with any kind of intelligence and sensitivity is brutalised, victimised, ostracised and several other kinds of -ised. And this is seen as normal, inevitable, even necessary as some kind of rite of passage. Umm, no.

18th July 2012, 04:44 AM	#7
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,921	Um, wow, how can we judge a heterogeneous system on a single metric? I know that the bully issue is different than when I went to school in the mid 70s, it is less in some school districts than it was then. However bullying is an unfortunate, and not inevitable part of society. There is much less overt meanness than when I was young, the percentage of adults who view physical violence as a resolution has decreased. However the subtle bullying still exists and in some ways is amplified by modern technology. Small schools still grind many students into homogeneity, as do small towns. Some parts of society think that ridiculing others is the height of entertainment. In terms of Glee, if you threw a slushie on someone, you would be suspended.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

18th July 2012, 05:14 AM	#8
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,237	Well in the USA during the 60's you were on your own. The bullys ran the school actually. I saw teeth knocked out, shiners and fat lips on a daily basis. Kids were robbed of their lunch money and shoved and spit on. The good old days were not so good.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

18th July 2012, 06:15 AM	#9
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 10,036	Glee is not realistic. At all. Ever.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

18th July 2012, 06:16 AM	#10
DrDave Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,137	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha Glee is not realistic. At all. Ever. What? Schools don't break out into spontaneous song and dance routings several times a day. I'm shocked, SHOCKED!

18th July 2012, 06:20 AM	#11
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,907	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha Glee is not realistic. At all. Ever. I don't suppose it is, but it's a good example of the "bullying will usually be tolerated" trope that seems to be widely used in American TV. And I know these tropes are often totally disconnected from reality, which is why I was asking the question. I've seen some people on this forum seeming to work from the assumption that anybody who's intelligent, cultured, sensitive or in any way different will have been bullied extensively at high school, and I wondered how much that's actually the case. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

18th July 2012, 06:24 AM	#12
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,814	I had a grade-school bully. It was a Catholic school, but at recess there was no authority on the playground. I was pummeled mercilessly; twice, the guy just beat on me until he got tired, with a crowd of every other kid standing around in a circle. After the last beating, my mom told me to hit him in the face as hard as I could next time, and he would leave me alone. I had been using the "cover-up-and-whine-that-you-didn't-deserve-it" defense. I didn't even wait for a next time; as soon as I went into class the next day I tackled him off his chair and hit him all Ralphy style. Kid never bothered me again, and in fact I helped him through a troubled time a few years later.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

18th July 2012, 06:25 AM	#13
Sir Robin Goodfellow Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estevan (wear da fox hat) Posts: 2,751	From what I experienced, it was the earlier grades were where the Lord of the Flies mentality was the worst, around the ages of twelve and thirteen. There seemed to be more maturity at the high school level. I was ignored for the most part in high school, but I got spit on, had rocks thrown at me, had property destroyed, and the like in the two years prior. This was in Canada, however, I can't speak for my American friends. But yes, bullying was seen as a normal rite of passage. The cool kids are good at sports, and have lots of friends, why can't you try to be more like them? Words can't hurt you, get over it. Stand up for yourself (but don't actually do anything, not even in self-defence, because you will be punished). Good times.

18th July 2012, 06:32 AM	#14
wobs Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 248	Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel You should've grown a mullet like everyone else. Might have helped, but the advice from adults at the time was "tell them to get lost". Gee thanks, so helpful, why didn't I think of that. Teacher incompetence in dealing with such issues was mind blowing. It might be better these days. We visited the school years later as part of its anniversary, and there were posters addressing the issues, looking as if they actually had a system in place.
wobs Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 248	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."

18th July 2012, 06:41 AM	#15
Tiktaalik Half True Scotsperson Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,033	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I don't suppose it is, but it's a good example of the "bullying will usually be tolerated" trope that seems to be widely used in American TV. And I know these tropes are often totally disconnected from reality, which is why I was asking the question. I've seen some people on this forum seeming to work from the assumption that anybody who's intelligent, cultured, sensitive or in any way different will have been bullied extensively at high school, and I wondered how much that's actually the case. Dave I've never seen Glee, but your description of the "typical American high school" sounded a lot like the one I went to. Some of the teachers were bullies. Kids were physically harmed on a daily basis by their peers. Poorer kids had their jackets stolen for fun (and never returned) - and it was brutally cold. Teachers formed alliances with certain students, possibly to avoid bullying themselves. School buses were some of the worst places, but you could be beaten up in the hallways, bathrooms, lunchroom, or outside as well. Verbal harassment was constant and terrible - really crass. People with any kind of disability were treated especially badly - I remember a kid with a limp who would be tripped and shoved every time he walked down the hall (he committed suicide, by the way). I had a deaf friend who was similarly tortured, things ripped out of her hands, torn up, thrown in the mud, destroyed. I'm glad to hear not everyone went to places like that, but it does exist.

18th July 2012, 06:47 AM	#16
Pope130 Muse Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 972	My experience in US schools in the '60s and early '70s was much like Sir Robin mentioned above. In grade school there were bullies who picked on those they perceived as weak, in high school the "In crowd" just ignored the weak. Currently there seems to be less physical violence, but possibly more psychological violence. When I was in high school I can recall only one suicide (a homosexual who was outed). Now, suicide as the result of harassment seems more common. It's possible that it is just more reported though. Suicides in general back then were often publicly reported as accidents.

18th July 2012, 06:58 AM	#17
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,887	There's loads of bullying in Japanese high schools. And a lot of suicides too. Many students first of all stop going to school and then finally stop leaving the house.

18th July 2012, 07:43 AM	#18
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers and anyone with any kind of intelligence and sensitivity is brutalised, victimised, ostracised and several other kinds of -ised. Nah, you can be intelligent and sensitive as long as you are very attractive or a male who plays one of the popular sports, and don't associate with non-popular kids. Like others have said, I found grade school bullying to be much worse than high school. Part of that was probably that my grade school class had 26 students, while my high school class had 450. With less frequent contact, it's harder to bully someone.

18th July 2012, 08:19 AM	#19
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,807	Originally Posted by angrysoba There's loads of bullying in Japanese high schools. And a lot of suicides too. Many students first of all stop going to school and then finally stop leaving the house. There's a Japanese game called Persona 3 which at first seems to just be standard magical realism fare. Then after a while I realized that the whole thing was an allegory for teen suicide in the Japanese school system. It's mostly symbolic, there are only a few actual deaths, but it's strange how chilling even a stylized fantasy about such things can be.
	__________________ A quick reminder to all participants that although incomprehensibility is not against the Membership Agreement, incivility is. Please try and remember this, and keep your exchanges polite and respectful. -arthwollipot

18th July 2012, 08:27 AM	#20
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,967	Quote: I don't suppose it is, but it's a good example of the "bullying will usually be tolerated" trope that seems to be widely used in American TV. And I know these tropes are often totally disconnected from reality, which is why I was asking the question. I've seen some people on this forum seeming to work from the assumption that anybody who's intelligent, cultured, sensitive or in any way different will have been bullied extensively at high school, and I wondered how much that's actually the case. I attended over 40 different schools growing up. I switched about once every two weeks -different state, different school, different life. In my experience, about 1/5 of the schools emulated that model. The rest were better; but bullying was always a constant problem. High school wasn't as bad as grade school, but putting the whole thing behind me was one of the happiest events of my life.
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

18th July 2012, 08:35 AM	#21
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,004	I had an odd high school experience. I was bullied and picked on a lot in elementary and junior high/middle school, but around high school I got more of an identity and made more friends. Bullying did still go on, but not that bad. Mostly you just had to look out for the gangster wannabes in their suburban gangs, playing crips and bloods. But I dropped out of high school in freshman year for about 4 years. When I came back to finish school as an 18 year old freshman, it was a radically different place. In my earlier experience, everyone sort of segregated into clicks, the skaters, the stoners, the punks, the jocks, the preps, the gansters, etc. There was spill over between these groups, but still it was very segregated. But upon my return to school around 1998, those clicks had all dissolved and melted into each other. Everyone was mostly friendly to everybody, people were very out going, there was nobody at all ditching school and hanging out in the streets and forests as they used to surrounding the area, there was not even a smoker's corner any longer. It was like everybody who wasn't wanting to go to school was gone. I found it very strange. I saw no bullying in the 2 final years of school I attended. Everybody was friendly and clean cut for the most part.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,004

18th July 2012, 08:46 AM	#22
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers is the TV trope realistic As others have said and speaking as part of the problem, no trope of any stripe on the idiot box is realistic. Ever. Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

18th July 2012, 08:47 AM	#23
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 The good old days were not so good. Aye that. Period sitcoms are written by the bullies Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

18th July 2012, 08:51 AM	#24
Ferguson Muse Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 852	I don't think TV is a good source for actual high school behavior. Protagonists will often play pranks, scams, etc. on the bungling principal, rival students, or on the school grounds just for laughs, that in real life would result in suspension, expulsion, assault charges, trespassing charges, etc... That said there is (or was in my experience) a lot of focus on the athletes, school pride, dances/homecoming king/queen, etc. that's probably absent from countries which focus a bit more on actually educating their children.

18th July 2012, 08:52 AM	#25
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Sir Robin Goodfellow From what I experienced, it was the earlier grades were where the Lord of the Flies mentality was the worst, around the ages of twelve and thirteen. There seemed to be more maturity at the high school level. I was ignored for the most part in high school, but I got spit on, had rocks thrown at me, had property destroyed, and the like in the two years prior. This was in Canada, however, I can't speak for my American friends. But yes, bullying was seen as a normal rite of passage. The cool kids are good at sports, and have lots of friends, why can't you try to be more like them? Words can't hurt you, get over it. Stand up for yourself (but don't actually do anything, not even in self-defence, because you will be punished). Good times. Sounds like you and I were joined at the hip. For me, the 'good times' started from very nearly the beginning. I can't say that I have any fond memories of school save for the girl who was my first (unrequited) crush Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

18th July 2012, 11:31 AM	#26
marksman Reality Checker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 5,003	I was bullied mercilessly in school until I basically grew 13 inches taller over one year and stood up for myself. (Well, technically I tried standing up for myself before I grew the added height and got the crap kicked out of me.) My daughters are in middle school now (a different one) and the atmosphere is completely different. There is little to no bullying of which I am aware. Anti-bullying policies do work if applied rationally. So I think experiences will differ across the nation. Good policies, conscientious parents, and good administrators can make good schools.

18th July 2012, 12:58 PM	#27
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Middle school was the worst period when I was in school. But the sort of bullying portrayed on TV was pretty rare. What instead mostly happened was that social pressure stratified kids into popular and unpopular cliques. Teasing and harassment mostly just served to keep kids in their respective circles, but as long as you did that, you were generally OK. There really wasn't a lot of physical violence, because you would get in trouble for it, and as I mentioned, stick with your circle and you avoided most teasing too. I wasn't bullied, but there was one older kid who really wanted to beat the crap out of me. He had a bad acne problem, and I called him "pizza face" because he was being a jerk. After that, he wanted to punch me every time he saw me in the hallway between classes. But it wasn't that hard to avoid him, and he wasn't willing to go all-out because he would have gotten in trouble. There was also one unpopular kid who got hit by a rock someone threw at him on his way home from school. I never learned exactly what happened to whoever did it, but I know the school administration took it seriously because they interviewed me about it since I had seen him leaving school, so they were doing a real investigation into what happened. I hated middle school, it was an unpleasant time, but bullying wasn't that much of a problem.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th July 2012, 01:09 PM	#28
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,892	I was a bully magnet for about a year of grade school. Before and after, not so much. My high school involved no bullying at all, as far as I could tell. The operative rite of passage was becoming a king in a clique of kings. Some cliques were more inclusive than others. Some cliques interacted and overlapped with each other to a greater extent than others. But no, bullying wasn't really a thing that happened.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,892

18th July 2012, 01:35 PM	#29
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	I don't recall any bullying going on at all during high school.
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860

18th July 2012, 02:30 PM	#30
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,921	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost I had a grade-school bully. It was a Catholic school, but at recess there was no authority on the playground. I was pummeled mercilessly; twice, the guy just beat on me until he got tired, with a crowd of every other kid standing around in a circle. After the last beating, my mom told me to hit him in the face as hard as I could next time, and he would leave me alone. I had been using the "cover-up-and-whine-that-you-didn't-deserve-it" defense. I didn't even wait for a next time; as soon as I went into class the next day I tackled him off his chair and hit him all Ralphy style. Kid never bothered me again, and in fact I helped him through a troubled time a few years later. That seems like the exact opposite advice to give.... That advice wouldn't even be good if all humans were of comparable strength.
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,921	__________________ ________________________ Last edited by OnlyTellsTruths; 18th July 2012 at 02:31 PM.

18th July 2012, 02:51 PM	#31
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers A comment on another thread has prompted me to ask a question... That's my quote so I want to clarify what I meant. The discussion was about what women are attracted to. Someone mentioned their experience in high school as a bit of anecdotal evidence. My quote was a comment on the fact that high school is in no way a representation of adult relationships. I wasn't directly commenting on bullying per se and I used admittedly over the top language for effect. I don't recall seeing much physical bullying even though I definitely qualified for the nerd clique (w00t chess club!). On the other hand, mocking and stigmatization was pretty commonplace...God help you if you were gay. (I was/am not for the record.)
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

18th July 2012, 03:34 PM	#32
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost After the last beating, my mom told me to hit him in the face as hard as I could next time, and he would leave me alone. I had been using the "cover-up-and-whine-that-you-didn't-deserve-it" defense. Arrested Development Buster: Mom always taught us to curl up in a ball and remain motionless when confronted. That's what I did in high school when I almost got into a fight. Michael: I think that was about being attacked by bears.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th July 2012, 03:43 PM	#33
UNLoVedRebel Hard Knocks Doctorate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 5,515	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 That's my quote so I want to clarify what I meant. The discussion was about what women are attracted to. Someone mentioned their experience in high school as a bit of anecdotal evidence. My quote was a comment on the fact that high school is in no way a representation of adult relationships. I wasn't directly commenting on bullying per se and I used admittedly over the top language for effect. I don't recall seeing much physical bullying even though I definitely qualified for the nerd clique (w00t chess club!). On the other hand, mocking and stigmatization was pretty commonplace...God help you if you were gay. (I was/am not for the record.) If gays had it tough, I can only imagine how Giants' fans had it.
	__________________ "All the Officialiers here typically have rancid alien avatars or else some kind of violent military-type avatar. Once again affirming my contention that 9/11 Officialiers are the most violent, murderous, group of people in the United States. Both statistically confirmed, but also anecdotally affirmed in almost every case of active pro-Officialers." - FloydGoethe

18th July 2012, 03:47 PM	#34
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel If gays had it tough, I can only imagine how Giants' fans had it. There are all sorts of politically incorrect and obscene responses one could make to that comment. But I'll just let you imagine them for yourself.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th July 2012, 04:11 PM	#35
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel If gays had it tough, I can only imagine how Giants' fans had it. We put them in Slytherin House...that's what they named the cobra pit anyway.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?