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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:39 AM   #1
Dcdrac
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Windows 8 another Vista?

It is beginnig to look like a rerun of Vista, slow take up, Compatability issues, PC manufactuers not keen.

Last edited by Dcdrac; 3rd December 2012 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:56 AM   #2
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Not exactly like Vista. But, there are some similarities.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:15 PM   #3
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Interesting anecdote: There's a game called "Hellgate London" that went kaput and then was resurrected by some other company. The game is pretty poorly optimized, and even high end machines tend to have issues. Users who upgrade to windows 8 report the game operating flawlessly and with high framerates even on elderly machines.

No first hand evidence yet, but I'll be upgrading to 8 in a week or so. I do some tech work, so I want some first hand experience with the OS.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:11 PM   #4
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"Plays 5 year old out of print game flawlessly" is hardly a slogan the marketing department can use effectively.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:19 PM   #5
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There isn't the same performance problem that Vista had. On my system at least, Windows 8 seems much more responsive than Windows 7. This is different than the XP-to-Vista update, where nice fast XP systems ended up crawling under Vista.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:35 PM   #6
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I actually really like 8. Definitely faster than 7, especially on lower end and/or older machines. Metro takes some getting used to, and I find I don't miss the start button much at all. Even if you do miss the start button there are plenty of shells out there that will bring it back. The only comparability issue I had was with an old tv tuner on one of my htpc's.

Don't upgrade before researching if your graphics card is compatible. Also, don't do it the weekend before a big work/school project is due since it may take a day or two to get used to the new interface.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:15 PM   #7
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Start8, from StarDock, seems to be the best add-in for Windows 8, for those who want the Start Menu back.
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Old 4th December 2012, 02:49 AM   #8
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We evalauted for corporate use in my team, Onsite IT support Unit, and did not feel that changing over from Windows 7 to 8 would be of nay real benefit at this time.
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Old 4th December 2012, 04:22 AM   #9
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Won't be upgrading, Metro UI looks ugly and garish. Also heard metro programs don't have a windowed mode is that wrong? I heard you can split the screen in half instead but thats not really that handy.

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Old 4th December 2012, 04:38 AM   #10
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Old 4th December 2012, 04:42 AM   #11
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rumours of Windows 9 already circulating
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Old 4th December 2012, 05:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
It is beginnig to look like a rerun of Vista, slow take up, Compatability issues, PC manufactuers not keen.
The issues I've seen are UI related, not performance, so not completely analogous. I don't see any urgency to upgrade, certainly.
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Old 4th December 2012, 05:09 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
It is beginnig to look like a rerun of Vista, slow take up, Compatability issues, PC manufactuers not keen.
The roll out was slow to uptake for Windows 7 as well, so that is no real indicator.

Vista had much larger internal bugs and errors.
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Old 4th December 2012, 10:36 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The issues I've seen are UI related, not performance, so not completely analogous. I don't see any urgency to upgrade, certainly.
I haven't used it yet, so I'm just going on what I've read. The interface looks like it might be decent for smartphones/tablets, but looks horrible for a PC with mouse, keyboard, and one or more big displays. I don't know why they couldn't have included a "classic mode" with the (IMO quite good) interface that has been fairly consistent clear back to 95 and NT 4.0.

Apparently they did a good job with the "guts", so it's not quite another Vista, but I think they screwed up with the user interface.
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Old 4th December 2012, 12:33 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I don't know why they couldn't have included a "classic mode" with the (IMO quite good) interface that has been fairly consistent clear back to 95 and NT 4.0.
You install a third party application to give you a start menu and taskbar, and that's basically what you have.
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Old 4th December 2012, 06:20 PM   #16
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I've not tried it (couldn't get Virtual Box to work on the trial version) but it seems like a rather messy "portal" compromise. MS felt left out of the touch sensitive boom but awkwardly didn't separate it from the PC version. So we have a touch sensitive phone/pad friendly gateway but past that, few former PC progs built or even potentially suitable for touch.
OK for a phone or pad but completely impractical to use a 22 inch plus screen for touch anyway for any length of time. Pads are for consuming content, Pcs still best for creating content.
They should have had Windows Touch 1 for phones and pads
plus Windows 7 plus for Pcs
as there are some changes made in Win8 that probably are an improvement like start up time or memory use.
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Old 5th December 2012, 05:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
I've not tried it (couldn't get Virtual Box to work on the trial version) but it seems like a rather messy "portal" compromise. MS felt left out of the touch sensitive boom but awkwardly didn't separate it from the PC version. So we have a touch sensitive phone/pad friendly gateway but past that, few former PC progs built or even potentially suitable for touch.
OK for a phone or pad but completely impractical to use a 22 inch plus screen for touch anyway for any length of time. Pads are for consuming content, Pcs still best for creating content.
They should have had Windows Touch 1 for phones and pads
plus Windows 7 plus for Pcs
as there are some changes made in Win8 that probably are an improvement like start up time or memory use.
That appears to be a problem with the MS company think system. Everything must work the same. They spent many years trying to squeeze windows onto all devices and now want pcs to operate the same as tablets.
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Old 5th December 2012, 05:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Won't be upgrading, Metro UI looks ugly and garish. Also heard metro programs don't have a windowed mode is that wrong? I heard you can split the screen in half instead but thats not really that handy.
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I haven't used it yet, so I'm just going on what I've read. The interface looks like it might be decent for smartphones/tablets, but looks horrible for a PC with mouse, keyboard, and one or more big displays. I don't know why they couldn't have included a "classic mode" with the (IMO quite good) interface that has been fairly consistent clear back to 95 and NT 4.0.

Apparently they did a good job with the "guts", so it's not quite another Vista, but I think they screwed up with the user interface.
Originally Posted by Modified View Post
You install a third party application to give you a start menu and taskbar, and that's basically what you have.
Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
I've not tried it (couldn't get Virtual Box to work on the trial version) but it seems like a rather messy "portal" compromise. MS felt left out of the touch sensitive boom but awkwardly didn't separate it from the PC version. So we have a touch sensitive phone/pad friendly gateway but past that, few former PC progs built or even potentially suitable for touch.
OK for a phone or pad but completely impractical to use a 22 inch plus screen for touch anyway for any length of time. Pads are for consuming content, Pcs still best for creating content.
They should have had Windows Touch 1 for phones and pads
plus Windows 7 plus for Pcs
as there are some changes made in Win8 that probably are an improvement like start up time or memory use.
For crying out loud people, except for the start button being replaced with a start screen, the desktop mode is virtually EXACTLY THE DAMN SAME as Windows 7. Same taskbar, same apps, same icons, same desktop etc etc

This is why people like Sinofsky deserve to have been fired. It's the marketers who have somehow allowed the tech press to post completely ignorant BS about their products and utterly mislead the public. It's not just Windows 8 software either, same is happening with the Surface.

Microsoft has completely lost control of the conversation and have utterly failed to communicate the realities of this software and hardware. As such it is another Vista, ala Project Mojave -

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Old 5th December 2012, 05:27 AM   #19
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Is their mission to make PCs harder to operate so they can sell more tablets or something?
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Old 5th December 2012, 06:57 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
For crying out loud people, except for the start button being replaced with a start screen, the desktop mode is virtually EXACTLY THE DAMN SAME as Windows 7. Same taskbar, same apps, same icons, same desktop etc etc
Well, for a start, that's a significant change to the UI, especially for the average user. Secondly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can't set the system to start in desktop mode, it always comes up with the tablet mode start screen.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:43 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
For crying out loud people, except for the start button being replaced with a start screen, the desktop mode is virtually EXACTLY THE DAMN SAME as Windows 7. Same taskbar, same apps, same icons, same desktop etc etc
It's worse than that: Microsoft wants to expect Windows users to use the Modern UI instead of the Desktop for all or most new applications.

Two things are keeping that from happening too rapidly: 1. Their own designs of key applications rely on the Desktop paradigm, for now: Microsoft Office, and lots and lots of Windows utilities that they couldn't convert over in time.
2. User's resistence to the change.

I will grant that, from a developer's perspective, there are a few advantages to the Modern UI: Better stateless apps being one of them.

But, it's hard to sell users on an interface that is deemed too crappy for too many computer users (even if a few actually like it), based on developer's needs.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Microsoft has completely lost control of the conversation and have utterly failed to communicate the realities of this software and hardware.
Seems like an arrogant statement to me.

"Our users are pointing out real flaws in our design. We must COMMUNICATE this NEW REALITY we are forcing upon them better!"

One way you can tell that Android and iOS are designed better: You DON'T have too many people poking fun at how bad the UI is for either one!

Microsoft could have designed a UI just as good as Android's. They deliberately chose not to. They chose the demeaning course of baby blocks.

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Secondly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can't set the system to start in desktop mode, it always comes up with the tablet mode start screen.
The Start8 utility from StarDock allows you to start in Desktop mode.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:07 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post

The Start8 utility from StarDock allows you to start in Desktop mode.
Right, so you have to add on software to get the system to behave as users of previous versions would expect it to. I should have been clearer, but I was talking about the OS out of the box. There is no option to set it to start up in Desktop mode. You can add extra software to do all sorts of things, but then you're dealing with a third party, and no longer have a standard Windows system.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Right, so you have to add on software to get the system to behave as users of previous versions would expect it to. I should have been clearer, but I was talking about the OS out of the box. There is no option to set it to start up in Desktop mode. You can add extra software to do all sorts of things, but then you're dealing with a third party, and no longer have a standard Windows system.
Not necessarily a big deal, but it's not free either:

Purchase Start8 for only $4.99 now!
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:24 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, for a start, that's a significant change to the UI, especially for the average user. Secondly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can't set the system to start in desktop mode, it always comes up with the tablet mode start screen.
Yes, they should have allowed that option, but it's not as major an issues as you might think. The thing is it is very rare to do a cold start. Windows 8 is designed for modern PCs and they're nearly always put in a sleep or hibernate mode, not a cold boot. I have not fully restarted my Win 8 machine outside of maintenance, so I always start in desktop mode where I was.

Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
It's worse than that: Microsoft wants to expect Windows users to use the Modern UI instead of the Desktop for all or most new applications.
Rubbish. Do you have any evidence at all to support that assertion?

Quote:
Microsoft could have designed a UI just as good as Android's. They deliberately chose not to. They chose the demeaning course of baby blocks.
The only "demeaning" going on is from you. As I've stated to you before, I like the start screen and much prefer it to the windows 7 start menu.

You however insist on implying I'm a baby for having such an opinion.
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Old 5th December 2012, 04:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Not necessarily a big deal, but it's not free either:

Purchase Start8 for only $4.99 now!
Wait a few weeks or months, and there will probably be something as good or better for free.
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Old 5th December 2012, 05:14 PM   #26
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Giant, monocolor blocks look amateurish on a phone-sized screen. On a big tablet or desktop it must be truly appalling.

I'm more willing to bet they were afraid of the phone icon "desktop" wars between Apple and Samsung/Android and chose to stay out of it with the most idiotically simple rectangles imaginable.
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Old 5th December 2012, 05:19 PM   #27
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None of this will matter after the 21st anyway.
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Old 5th December 2012, 05:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Wait a few weeks or months, and there will probably be something as good or better for free.
Classic Shell is free and I have been using it on win 7 for a long time. Very good program. I prefer the win98 type start menu to the win7 one.

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
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Old 5th December 2012, 06:18 PM   #29
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The real inspiration behind Windows 8 UI:
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Old 5th December 2012, 06:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Giant, monocolor blocks look amateurish on a phone-sized screen. On a big tablet or desktop it must be truly appalling.

I'm more willing to bet they were afraid of the phone icon "desktop" wars between Apple and Samsung/Android and chose to stay out of it with the most idiotically simple rectangles imaginable.
Or as I like to say: If I wanted a smartphone I would have bought a smart phone.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Right, so you have to add on software to get the system to behave as users of previous versions would expect it to. I should have been clearer, but I was talking about the OS out of the box. There is no option to set it to start up in Desktop mode.
Microsoft was aiming to block 3rd party utilities from starting to the desktop, at one point, too. I think they retracted because IT-oriented customers objected.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, they should have allowed that option, but it's not as major an issues as you might think. The thing is it is very rare to do a cold start.
And, those times it does do a cold start, those who have not used the Modern UI in a while will be at a loss of how to get the desktop back. Certain types of customers need the consistency.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Rubbish. Do you have any evidence at all to support that assertion?
How about the simple fact that it... Starts up in Modern UI mode?! Is that not enough of an indication for you? Well, there are a few more indications:

As a Microsoft platform developer, I have seen a very disturbing push towards Modern UI development, above and beyond anything much else.
(Of course, they did the same thing when the .NET Framework came out, but at least that was an IMPROVEMENT over how UI development was done. The difference, here, is not merely the fact that the UI is a radical departure, but that it is NOT an improvement over conventional Windows UI.)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The only "demeaning" going on is from you. As I've stated to you before, I like the start screen and much prefer it to the windows 7 start menu.
I did not mean to imply anything about you. Not everyone who uses Windows 8 is a baby. Not everyone who watches My Little Pony is a little girl. Sometimes, something can be designed for babies, but well-liked by adults, for some reason. (Though, I suppose using Win8 is not a creepy as adult men buying MLP:FIM dolls.)

Given its stark design with blocks and single color logos, its insistence of hiding lots of features and settings from you at any given time, its inclination for low information density, and the walled-garden approach to RT (which does not apply to PCs); I am forced to conclude that the Modern UI was designed a little more for babies than either iOS (which is saying a LOT) and Android.

Originally Posted by Pantaz View Post
The real inspiration behind Windows 8 UI:
Funny, how every PC maker at the time was trying to make Windows easier to use, with screens like that, and how they were generally disliked even back then.


As a side note I find it curious that there are not more complaints about the awkwardness of horizontal scrolling on a mouse with only a vertical scroll wheel. Perhaps there are bigger fish to fry, or something. But, they could have had the decency to give us the option to vertical scroll the Modern UI when using a desktop PC with a mouse, you know. I'm just sayin'...
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Old 6th December 2012, 01:59 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Is their mission to make PCs harder to operate so they can sell more tablets or something?
The desktop is already starting to die out. won't be long before they are the sole preserve of those which a need to tinker or a genuine need for heavy processing power.
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:06 AM   #33
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http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2...ate-windows-8/

Originally Posted by geni View Post
The desktop is already starting to die out.
But, there was no reason to completely remove desktop features, at this time. Sure, their usefulness might fade over time. But, for now, they remain too useful for too many people. It's not like it was some sort of difficult engineering challenge to keep it on there, either. They deliberately decided to annoy lots of potential users.
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:23 AM   #34
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I needed to do a clean sweep reinstall recently, and tried win8. I couldn't get it to work with my raid drive. It would just error out on start up. It would work fine if I unplugged the raid drive, and only started up from my raptor, but as soon as I plugged it in, I never could get it to start up. So I just wiped and reinstalled win 7.
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Old 6th December 2012, 02:35 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
But, there was no reason to completely remove desktop features, at this time. Sure, their usefulness might fade over time. But, for now, they remain too useful for too many people. It's not like it was some sort of difficult engineering challenge to keep it on there, either. They deliberately decided to annoy lots of potential users.
What significant "desktop features" did they remove? I've not encountered any yet.
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Old 6th December 2012, 04:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
This is why people like Sinofsky deserve to have been fired. It's the marketers who have somehow allowed the tech press to post completely ignorant BS about their products and utterly mislead the public. It's not just Windows 8 software either, same is happening with the Surface.

Microsoft has completely lost control of the conversation and have utterly failed to communicate the realities of this software and hardware. As such it is another Vista, ala Project Mojave
Bogus. Win8 is a steaming turd and I certainly didn't need the press to inform me of this.

I should mention, I'm a professional software developer and I specialize in certain MS products -- the better they do the better I do. If I'm biased, it's in favor of MS.
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Old 6th December 2012, 05:00 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
What significant "desktop features" did they remove? I've not encountered any yet.
That got me thinking and I can't think of any. They expanded on the old start menu, and added some new shortcut features (charm bar etc) and that's it as far as I can see.
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Old 6th December 2012, 05:15 PM   #38
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Could be worse. MS could be pushing a 21st century version of Bob.
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Old 6th December 2012, 05:42 PM   #39
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I've only just recently got my XP machine running the way I like it. At work I was forced to upgrade to Win 7, and it took about 3 months and a dozen or so 3rd party add-ons and registry hacks to make it look and feel like XP. I have a Windows phone and the metro UI drives me up the wall on that.

Just once I'd like to see Microsoft come out with a new version that keeps the previous look/feel/features by default and let's users opt in to whatever changes they want to make on our own time.
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Old 6th December 2012, 05:45 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Bogus. Win8 is a steaming turd and I certainly didn't need the press to inform me of this.
Care to elaborate? As per my previous question (and Darat's confirming response) the desktop environment is virtually identical to Windows 7.

Are you imply windows 7 is a steaming turd or are you talking about something I've missed?
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