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Old 10th February 2013, 08:16 PM   #401
Wowbagger
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I wonder how many things you've missed out on over the years?
I have been using Windows extensively since 3.1. I have lots of books and have had many an assorted discussion on various features and options and stuff that every version of Windows, since 3.1, has ever had.

But, I didn't need any of that to use the core features.

There is a difference between:

1. Delivering an intuitive interface for the main features; while providing additional tools for less common ones that might require some reading.

VS.

2. Making an interface that is completely foreign to much of the existing user base, and not-at-all optimized for a large percentage of machines it will run on, even for basic things the OS is supposed to let the person do.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Do you know there's an entire industry of books and courses on how to get the most out of particular OSs?
All you do is insult my intelligence.

This is NOT ABOUT ME.

Please stop arguing the arguer.

If you can't defend Windows 8 on its own merits, then you have nothing to say here. Go home.
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Old 10th February 2013, 08:40 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
I have not used Win8 yet, and so far, nothing any of its supporters have said here convinces me that it's worth a look. I am curious though, about the supposed performance improvements. When I first switched from XP to Win7, I was impressed with the faster boot time, until I turned back on all the stuff that I use regularly which was there by default in XP, but removed/turned off + plus hidden in multiple nested menus or new non-intuitive locations in Win7. Then the performance dropped right back to what I'd had with XP in the first place. Are the current performance improvements for real, or did MS just pull another fast one?
I have never heard of anyone getting a performance boost by installing Win 7 to replace XP on the same computer. Win 7 uses more CPU time and RAM than XP.

The performance improvement in Win 8 vs. Win 7 is quite real. It's not just faster boot, which I don't really notice or care about. What I'm seeing is that Windows 8 loads applications faster, it releases memory faster, and operations involving big files or many files don't bog down the system even though the hdd may be thrashing. After I got my laptop all set up, I did some stress-testing with a video editor, stringing together big video files with different containers and codecs, and doing things that will crash a flaky program or even a good one if the hardware and OS can't keep up. I'm very pleased with the results, and this is a budget machine, with an i5 CPU and a 5,400 rpm dog of a hdd.

If MS had implemented the mobile UI as an option instead of forcing it onto every desktop, and retained the start button on the desktop UI, the world would be raving about this release.

But, they did what they did, and the reviews are mostly negative.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:37 PM   #403
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Icerat: A general truth is that end users do not read manuals or KB articles.
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Old 10th February 2013, 11:35 PM   #404
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
This is typical of what I have been seeing in the news coverage:

I went to the Best Buy website a couple of days ago to get phone numbers to my local stores so I could call and see what they might have available and figure out if it was worth my time to camp out.

[ ... ]

I went to the store an hour before opening today and there was one other kid in his car. As I was about to get out and be first in line at 9:30, an email arrived from Brian. He let me know that they only had two 64GB units and zero 128GB units to sell.9:45 and there were already two in line so that store was going to sell out.

[ ... ]

Even though I called Staples a couple days earlier and they had no idea if they would get the Surface Pro, I drove the two miles down the road to visit them. I was first up to the counter when they opened and the manager came to tell me they did not have any. She did say that UPS often comes on launch day and delivers things so she took my name and phone number. She called just a short while ago and told me that one 64GB model came in and it was mine if I wanted it. I thanked her very much for the call and told her to go ahead and sell it to the next person in line as I really needed the 128GB model.


http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-blows...ce-7000011080/

MS of course put out a statement about how they are working hard to meet the incredible demand... blech. I pity them.
That's quite common practice, as is out and out lying about such sell outs. I can remember a PR guy I worked with who got a story into the press about a game selling out and all he did was to ensure one local store had only a couple of copies and sent some of his team to buy them. His journalist mate then rang up the shop and asked had they sold out, the shop said yes and sure enough the story ran the next day in a national newspaper as "unprecedented demand has resulted in shops running out of stock".
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Old 10th February 2013, 11:40 PM   #405
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Icerat: A general truth is that end users do not read manuals or KB articles.
Which is why when you first start a new installation of the Win8 it has a quick demo/tutorial about the new bits.

Mind you those that think the start button is somehow intuitive and obvious should go and read the many complaints about that when it was first introduced. It's not that long ago that the mac fanboys v windows fanboys would always have a "and you have to press" Start" to shutdown".
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Old 11th February 2013, 12:26 AM   #406
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This cartoon might be relevant: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=211

It occurs to me that the whole "Surface Pro Sold Out" story is fishy for one good reason: Where were the lines?

When Apple puts out a new product, there are LOOOOOOONG LINES for it! Really, really, hideously looooong lines. That is true, if they actually sold out of the devices or not.

I recall about 3 or so years ago, there were actually some significant lines for Android phones. Some of them, like the first Incredible, were actually sold out so quickly, folks like me had to backorder them.

And, yet, not much in the realm of lines for Microsoft's Surface devices.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which is why when you first start a new installation of the Win8 it has a quick demo/tutorial about the new bits.
One, I might add, that is actually too easily forgettable. And, it's also insufficient in pointing out exactly where things are. And, of course, only the person who first started the OS will actually see it.

So, it's kinda useless.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Mind you those that think the start button is somehow intuitive and obvious should go and read the many complaints about that when it was first introduced.
As many complaints as it might have had... there were tons more from people who used Windows 3.1:
There was no place to get back to the Program Manager once you were in a program. Some people, ironically, thought you can only run one application at time, if it opened in a maximized form.
Then there were the many who thought their applications "disappeared" if they accidentally hit the minimize button or something.

No one is born knowing to click a Start button to get to things. But, it sure beat the alternatives in its day, anyway!

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's not that long ago that the mac fanboys v windows fanboys would always have a "and you have to press" Start" to shutdown".
As far as tradeoffs go, it's not too shabby a one to have to put up with.
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Old 11th February 2013, 01:05 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
...snip...

One, I might add, that is actually too easily forgettable. And, it's also insufficient in pointing out exactly where things are. And, of course, only the person who first started the OS will actually see it.

So, it's kinda useless. ...snip...
It's still better than the crap they used when they introduced the Start button!
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
As many complaints as it might have had... there were tons more from people who used Windows 3.1:
There was no place to get back to the Program Manager once you were in a program. Some people, ironically, thought you can only run one application at time, if it opened in a maximized form.
Then there were the many who thought their applications "disappeared" if they accidentally hit the minimize button or something.

No one is born knowing to click a Start button to get to things. But, it sure beat the alternatives in its day, anyway!
...snip...

You are right - change is hard for us oldsters - when you get back from telling those kids to get of your lawn....
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Old 11th February 2013, 03:05 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
But, I didn't need any of that to use the core features.
SInce when was a right click to a shortcut menu a "core feature"?

Quote:
1. Delivering an intuitive interface for the main features; while providing additional tools for less common ones that might require some reading.
Which is what they did

Quote:
2. Making an interface that is completely foreign to much of the existing user base, and not-at-all optimized for a large percentage of machines it will run on, even for basic things the OS is supposed to let the person do.
Which they didn't

Quote:
If you can't defend Windows 8 on its own merits, then you have nothing to say here. Go home.
You're the one making crap up, wowbagger. You've now arbitrarily decided that a shortcut feature (right clicking) is a sign of bad design even though it's never been visually advertised in earlier versions either.

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Icerat: A general truth is that end users do not read manuals or KB articles.
So what? That doesn't mean they're not useful for finding out about additional non-core features.
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Old 11th February 2013, 03:07 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
If MS had implemented the mobile UI as an option instead of forcing it onto every desktop, and retained the start button on the desktop UI, the world would be raving about this release.
No, they'd be complaining about the lack of innovation.
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Old 11th February 2013, 03:10 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
And, of course, only the person who first started the OS will actually see it.
And, of course, like much of what you claim, that's not true.

It shows for the first login of every account.
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Old 11th February 2013, 04:24 AM   #411
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No, they'd be complaining about the lack of innovation.
No. No actually I don't think we would be.
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Old 11th February 2013, 10:01 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
No. No actually I don't think we would be.
Yes. Yes actually I think you would be.
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Old 11th February 2013, 11:47 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It shows for the first login of every account.
I stand corrected on this one point.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
SInce when was a right click to a shortcut menu a "core feature"?
I am puzzled as to why they placed access to core features in a right-click menu. That's all.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Which is what they did
Now, you are contradicting yourself:

1. I said: "Core features are hard to figure out, at first"
2. You said "RTFM! Like I did!"
3. I reply "I should not need to do so for core features"
4. You reply "You don't need to. The interface is inuitive"
5. Now, I am saying "But, you just told me to RTFM!"

Make up your mind!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You're the one making crap up, wowbagger. You've now arbitrarily decided that a shortcut feature (right clicking) is a sign of bad design even though it's never been visually advertised in earlier versions either.
A useful feature like the Quick Access menu should NOT be relegated to a right-click menu in the corner, with no visible means to know it is even there.

A better-designed OS would have a visible button, that one could left-click to open.


It's like someone spending many days climbing to the top of a mountain, only to find out that they could have taken the tram system up there. But, since no one bothered to advertise the tram system, the climber didn't know about it.
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Old 12th February 2013, 01:12 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I am puzzled as to why they placed access to core features in a right-click menu. That's all.
Because it's a handy shortcut?

Quote:
Now, you are contradicting yourself:
1. I said: "Core features are hard to figure out, at first"
2. You said "RTFM! Like I did!"
It's not a core feature. The control panel and all other elements of the quick access menu are available through normal means as well.

Quote:
3. I reply "I should not need to do so for core features"
4. You reply "You don't need to. The interface is inuitive"
5. Now, I am saying "But, you just told me to RTFM!"

Make up your mind!
RTFM to find out about non-core features.

Quote:
A useful feature like the Quick Access menu should NOT be relegated to a right-click menu in the corner, with no visible means to know it is even there.
I find pinning programs to the taskbar even more useful. There's no visible means to know this feature is even there!!!

Quote:
A better-designed OS would have a visible button, that one could left-click to open.
says you.
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Old 12th February 2013, 03:14 AM   #415
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Windows 8 sucks. Even on a virtual Machine. Was there a poll about 8 vs 7/XP already?
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Old 12th February 2013, 07:47 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Because it's a handy shortcut?
Damn straight, it's a handy shortcut! Wow! If only there was a way to advertise its presence to more people, so it would get used more often. Hmmmm.....

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It's not a core feature. The control panel and all other elements of the quick access menu are available through normal means as well.
The folks at the Microsoft Store seem to be more empathetic towards people who complain about the lack of the Start button.

I take that as a sign that even Microsoft is starting to realize that the one-stop-shop approach is not something that should have been de-emphasized so quickly.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I find pinning programs to the taskbar even more useful. There's no visible means to know this feature is even there!!!
What does that have to do with anything?


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
says you.
Says the principles of good OS design, that I already went over, that you can't even address without making assumptions about what kind of baby I am, and how stupid and unintelligent I must be, because I don't know how to read a book to tell me how to use the operating system I've been using since I was child. Because, I can justify my arguments on objective grounds, that would benefit more of its users. But, to you: that must mean my opinions are backwards, uninnovative, technologically repressive, old-fashioned, and silly.

Am I right?

Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Windows 8 sucks. Even on a virtual Machine.
...says the person whose current avatar looks suspiciously like a Windows 8 wait indicator.
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Old 12th February 2013, 09:10 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
What does that have to do with anything?
You're the one obsessed with having visual notification of features, not me. Why isn't it needed for pinning but is needed for the quick access menu?

Quote:
Says the principles of good OS design, that I already went over, that you can't even address without making assumptions about what kind of baby I am, and how stupid and unintelligent I must be, because I don't know how to read a book to tell me how to use the operating system I've been using since I was child. Because, I can justify my arguments on objective grounds, that would benefit more of its users. But, to you: that must mean my opinions are backwards, uninnovative, technologically repressive, old-fashioned, and silly.

Am I right?
No, you're wrong about the objective grounds part.
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Old 12th February 2013, 11:36 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You're the one obsessed with having visual notification of features, not me. Why isn't it needed for pinning but is needed for the quick access menu?
First of all, you don't need visual queues for every single implementation of a feature. One queue for one implementation is usually sufficient. The ability to pin items to the taskbar is one implementation of program access. The Start Menu is another. The Start Menu has access to LOTS more applications, and yet it is the one left without the queue.

Second of all, the taskbar pinning does have a vague queue of sorts: When Windows is set up, there are a few icons on there by default. It's not much, but it does get the user thinking: "I wonder how I could put other icons on there?"

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No, you're wrong about the objective grounds part.
I already wrote many posts where I cited facts about the OS. Please re-read them. Maybe you missed them, somehow.
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Old 12th February 2013, 11:41 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
...says the person whose current avatar looks suspiciously like a Windows 8 wait indicator.

Hey, the animation is the single one thing I like about Windows 8! ... I mean watching it during the shut down process, that is.
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Old 12th February 2013, 12:30 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
<snip>

The folks at the Microsoft Store seem to be more empathetic towards people who complain about the lack of the Start button.

I take that as a sign that even Microsoft is starting to realize that the one-stop-shop approach is not something that should have been de-emphasized so quickly.

<snip>

I take it as a sign of well trained staff exercising good customer management.

When some self-proclaimed expert in user interface design comes in there whining about trivial crap and pontificating about the "right" way to do things, they're going to nod sympathetically and pretend to commiserate.

Their job is to keep the customer in the store, not to argue with them.
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Old 12th February 2013, 01:09 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I take it as a sign of well trained staff exercising good customer management.

When some self-proclaimed expert in user interface design comes in there whining about trivial crap and pontificating about the "right" way to do things, they're going to nod sympathetically and pretend to commiserate.

Their job is to keep the customer in the store, not to argue with them.
You could be right. But, this attitude is different than the one they had when Windows 8 first launched. Which is why I suspect there could be something more to it. Maybe.

Their responses used to be more along the lines of "Ah, but it's actually better this way because...". Now, they don't even try saying things like that. It's like they're tired of doing it so much.

Then there's quotes like this that I got from them: "Windows 8 is an experiment, and Microsoft is open to feedback."
(might not be an exact quote)

Never heard a line like that, at all, from them, when the OS originally launched.
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Old 12th February 2013, 01:28 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No, they'd be complaining about the lack of innovation.
Bah. MS does not innovate. They look at what succeeds in the marketplace, and then they scramble to catch up. Netscape was a hit, so MS developed IE. Google was a hit, so MS came up with Bing. Now phones and tablets with a tiled interface are cutting into the PC market, so MS has built a tiled interface into Windows.

You apparently see this as innovation. I see it as a dull, plodding strategy driven by fear. But it has been successful for many years, right?
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Old 13th February 2013, 05:55 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Second of all, the taskbar pinning does have a vague queue of sorts: When Windows is set up, there are a few icons on there by default. It's not much, but it does get the user thinking: "I wonder how I could put other icons on there?"
Right clicking is endemic throughout windows, yet you conveniently ignore that fact when ranting against the lack of cues for the quick access menu.

keep digging.
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Old 13th February 2013, 09:11 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Right clicking is endemic throughout windows, yet you conveniently ignore that fact when ranting against the lack of cues for the quick access menu.

keep digging.
I don't think you are comprehending my argument, so I will make it clearer:

In Windows 95 through Windows 7, you can left-click a visible button, which opens up a menu for access to LOTS of things: Programs, documents, settings, shut down, etc.

Windows 8 is objectively worse off, because:

You need to right-click a corner with no visible cue, to get SOME of those items: Mainly settings, but there is also a Run command and such.

But, you must left-click that same mostly-invisible corner for Programs.

Then, to shut down, you go to the Settings section of the Charms bar on the right. It's not even in the same corner.

Yes, those items on the right-click Quick Access menu can be gotten from other places. But, that just multiplies the number of places you need to go, to get to things.

To further clarify the point, let's reverse the POV of my statements. Do you think anyone, in all honesty, would say something like this:

"Hey, I've got a brilliant, innovative idea! The Start Menu was one of the most popular, and well-known, and well-used features of Windows. Let's take that thing OFF of there, and completely replace it with a mish-mash of other interfaces that only really make sense in the context of a few models of newer computers, with touch screens!!"

The Start Button could have been kept in addition to the Modern UI stuff. But, their motivations to ditch it entirely seems to be ill-advised.
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Old 13th February 2013, 09:29 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I don't think you are comprehending my argument, so I will make it clearer:

In Windows 95 through Windows 7, you can left-click a visible button, which opens up a menu for access to LOTS of things: Programs, documents, settings, shut down, etc.

Windows 8 is objectively worse off, because:

You need to right-click a corner with no visible cue, to get SOME of those items: Mainly settings, but there is also a Run command and such.

But, you must left-click that same mostly-invisible corner for Programs.

Then, to shut down, you go to the Settings section of the Charms bar on the right. It's not even in the same corner.

Yes, those items on the right-click Quick Access menu can be gotten from other places. But, that just multiplies the number of places you need to go, to get to things.

To further clarify the point, let's reverse the POV of my statements. Do you think anyone, in all honesty, would say something like this:

"Hey, I've got a brilliant, innovative idea! The Start Menu was one of the most popular, and well-known, and well-used features of Windows. Let's take that thing OFF of there, and completely replace it with a mish-mash of other interfaces that only really make sense in the context of a few models of newer computers, with touch screens!!"

The Start Button could have been kept in addition to the Modern UI stuff. But, their motivations to ditch it entirely seems to be ill-advised.
You'd think they'd have learnt from the fuss over Office when they took a UI that every body at least new, even if it wasn't exactly loved and then changed it all. I admit somethings have been made a little easier, but I'm still cursing some of the changes because I have to waste time looking for things I used to do easily!
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Old 13th February 2013, 10:26 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
You need to right-click a corner with no visible cue, to get SOME of those items: Mainly settings, but there is also a Run command and such.
No visible cue? My windows 8 shows a mini-start screen when I point in the bottom left corner. You sure you've used it?

Quote:
Then, to shut down, you go to the Settings section of the Charms bar on the right. It's not even in the same corner.
Why would you do that? If on a laptop, close the screen. On a desktop, press the power button. Both are far quicker than the start/shutdown method you prefer.

You spent pages earlier talking about how there were too many clicks involved in certain things, yet here you promoting "move mouse, click, move mouse, click, confirm" as being better than "press button"

Why is that?

Quote:
Yes, those items on the right-click Quick Access menu can be gotten from other places. But, that just multiplies the number of places you need to go, to get to things.
So having multiple different ways to access something is bad now? A few pages back it was good.

Quote:
The Start Button could have been kept in addition to the Modern UI stuff. But, their motivations to ditch it entirely seems to be ill-advised.
It's no big deal. I already looked up the stats on "start8" type downloads and licences - a tiny percentage, and I'd venture a lot of people uninstalled or never installed too.

Really, it's not that hard. Point in the same place you always did, get a visual notification (should make you happy) and you get a start menu.

It's just not that hard.

And my screen no longer has the wasted space of a start button which is almost never used.

It's just not that big a deal
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Old 13th February 2013, 11:53 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No visible cue? My windows 8 shows a mini-start screen when I point in the bottom left corner. You sure you've used it?
It doesn't show up until you move the mouse to the corner.

If you have multiple monitors, with one below or to the left of the corner, it won't show up unless the pointer is on the exact pixel.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Why would you do that? If on a laptop, close the screen. On a desktop, press the power button. Both are far quicker than the start/shutdown method you prefer.
Many computers only have soft power buttons. A few might have hard switches in the back, to reach for. (But, you'd want to close the OS properly, anyway, before hitting that switch)

Some computers are locked in cabinets and stuff.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You spent pages earlier talking about how there were too many clicks involved in certain things, yet here you promoting "move mouse, click, move mouse, click, confirm" as being better than "press button"
Windows 7: 1. Click Start. 2. Click Shutdown.

Windows 8: 1. Open Charms bar. 2. Click settings 3. Click Shutdown.

Windows 7 is one fewer step for the typical user.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So having multiple different ways to access something is bad now? A few pages back it was good.
Perhaps you're still not getting what I am saying.

I am NOT talking about the number of different ways to access the same thing.
Both Windows 7 and Windows 8 have a few different ways to access different things. That is not the problem.


I am talking about the single, principal way access is granted, for a typical user.

In Windows 95 to 7, the Start Menu had almost everything you needed, IN ADDITION to having other ways to get to those things.

Window 8 forces you to get to those same things in different ways. There is no built-in option to get it all in one place.

Having multiple different ways to access something is a good thing. But, it would be nice if one of those "many ways" was a central hub for the most common or important items.

Do you understand the argument now?
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Old 13th February 2013, 12:24 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
It doesn't show up until you move the mouse to the corner.

If you have multiple monitors, with one below or to the left of the corner, it won't show up unless the pointer is on the exact pixel.
Which I do, and which I have no problem doing.

Quote:
Many computers only have soft power buttons.
Which is what you should be using.

Quote:
Some computers are locked in cabinets and stuff.
Really? Running desktop OS? Give me a break.

Quote:
Windows 7: 1. Click Start. 2. Click Shutdown.
Windows 7 - press power button

Quote:
Windows 8: 1. Open Charms bar. 2. Click settings 3. Click Shutdown.

Windows 7 is one fewer step for the typical user.
Windows 8 - press power button

Quote:
In Windows 95 to 7, the Start Menu had almost everything you needed, IN ADDITION to having other ways to get to those things.
WB, you've been complaining about one of the ADDITIONAL methods.

Quote:
Window 8 forces you to get to those same things in different ways. There is no built-in option to get it all in one place.
Bovine Excrement. All the programs on the Quick Access Menu are right there on the start menu, just like with Windows 7.

Quote:
Having multiple different ways to access something is a good thing. But, it would be nice if one of those "many ways" was a central hub for the most common or important items.
What, like on the start screen?

Quote:
Do you understand the argument now?
Yes, I'm understanding more and more that you're not being honest when claiming regular use of Windows 8. Again and again you make statements about that are patently false.
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Old 13th February 2013, 02:17 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Windows 7 - press power button

Windows 8 - press power button
We are talking about OS design. Not hardware.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
WB, you've been complaining about one of the ADDITIONAL methods.
I am not complaining about it being there. I am saying that this Additional Method could be implemented better.

If I stated "The Quick Access Menu should not exist!", then I would be complaining about it being there.

But, I am NOT saying that! I am saying:

The Quick Access Bar is sooooo handy, they ought to have a little button or something to left-click on, so we can get to it even easier!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Bovine Excrement. All the programs on the Quick Access Menu are right there on the start menu, just like with Windows 7.
Of the items in the Quick Access menu, only the Desktop item in on the Start Screen, by default. Not any of the others.

(Does being wrong about that mean you've never even used Windows 8? )


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, I'm understanding more and more that you're not being honest when claiming regular use of Windows 8. Again and again you make statements about that are patently false.
Very few of my statements have been corrected. The one about the tutorial showing for new accounts was a recent place I was corrected. There might have been one or two others, if you go back in history.

Other than that, where do you get off saying "Again and again you make statements about that are patently false"?

I think anyone who uses Windows 8 (without 3rd party start menu replacements) will experience what I am saying for themselves.





ETA: I did happen to notice there is one small correction I can make about something I wrote, myself:

Windows 7: 1. Click Start. 2. Click Shutdown.

Windows 8: 1. Open Charms bar. 2. Click settings 3. Click Power. 4. Click Shutdown.

I missed a step in the Windows 8 shut down process. Sorry about that.
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Old 13th February 2013, 04:35 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Quote:
Some computers are locked in cabinets and stuff.
Really? Running desktop OS? Give me a break.
Yes! Do you have small children?
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Old 13th February 2013, 08:00 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
<snip>

ETA: I did happen to notice there is one small correction I can make about something I wrote, myself:

Windows 7: 1. Click Start. 2. Click Shutdown.

Windows 8: 1. Open Charms bar. 2. Click settings 3. Click Power. 4. Click Shutdown.

I missed a step in the Windows 8 shut down process. Sorry about that.

I think you missed more than that. Maybe it's the way you choose to describe it.

Now, I only have XP to compare to, since I jumped from that to Win 8, but I see the progression more like this.

If you start with the cursor in mid-screen

XP: move cursor left to Start button.
W8: move cursor right to cue Charms.

XP: Click Start button:
W8: Click Settings icon:

XP: Click Shut down:
W8: Click Power:

XP: select shutdown preference (Sleep, restart, etc.)
W8: select shutdown preference (Sleep, restart, etc.)
Machine powers down.

XP: Click OK.
Machine powers down.

Of course, if you're in the Win 8 desktop you can press <alt>F4 to get a shutdown dialogue.

Just like XP.
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Old 13th February 2013, 11:17 PM   #432
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Why would you use the power button when you can shutdown from the OS?
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:00 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
The Quick Access Bar is sooooo handy, they ought to have a little button or something to left-click on, so we can get to it even easier!
Oh yes! Cause left clicking is so much easier than right clicking!

Quote:
Of the items in the Quick Access menu, only the Desktop item in on the Start Screen, by default. Not any of the others.
Wrong (again). They're all there, even categorised much the same as in Win 7, under Administrative Tools and Windows System.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:11 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Why would you use the power button when you can shutdown from the OS?
Why would you do it from the OS, when it so much quicker and easier to press the power button?

Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Yes! Do you have small children?
Yes, two. Got a 2 yr old sitting next to me right now.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:44 AM   #435
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Why would you do it from the OS, when it so much quicker and easier to press the power button?



Yes, two. Got a 2 yr old sitting next to me right now.
... Because you can execute an unsafe ahutdown via the power button or safe via OS.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:28 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
... Because you can execute an unsafe ahutdown via the power button or safe via OS.

Not true, virtually all modern Motherboards initiate a safe shutdown via the ACPI standards whenever you press the power button. So it's just the same thing whether you click the turn off icon or press the power button.
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Old 14th February 2013, 09:42 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Oh yes! Cause left clicking is so much easier than right clicking!
Some people don't have or can't use right mouse buttons.

Right-clicking is often reserved for auxiliary functionality. A feature like the Quick Access menu deserves better than that.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Wrong (again). They're all there, even categorised much the same as in Win 7, under Administrative Tools and Windows System.
Some (but not all) are in the All Apps screen. A bunch of them you can only find with the Settings Search screen, if you stick with the MUI.

There might be more places to access some of those options from the Desktop.

The point, though, is that they're certainly not all on the Start Screen, at least not by default.
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:29 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
... Because you can execute an unsafe ahutdown via the power button or safe via OS.
Indeed. Forcing the power off is not a good idea unless the system is completely frozen.

I followed the instructions here:

http://blog.laptopmag.com/how-to-shu...just-one-click

Windows 8, in my estimation, is an outstanding OS - better than Vista or 7. But they have really screwed themselves by tacking on the mobile UI, because for many users, certainly for me, it's not a reasonable interface for the desktop. And that is how it's being judged. But I click through it, it's not really a significant problem, and I am delighted with my new Windows 8 laptop.
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Old 14th February 2013, 12:01 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Why would you do it from the OS, when it so much quicker and easier to press the power button?



Yes, two. Got a 2 yr old sitting next to me right now.
Well, if your 2 year old DOESN'T push every button, pull every cable and pour liquid into every recess s/he sees then you're a lot luckier than I am. I have a 2 and a 3 year old who have destroyed 3 DVD players, a laptop, a game console and a radio just in the past 5 months. My PC is locked in a cabinet.
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Old 14th February 2013, 12:08 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Well, if your 2 year old DOESN'T push every button, pull every cable and pour liquid into every recess s/he sees then you're a lot luckier than I am. I have a 2 and a 3 year old who have destroyed 3 DVD players, a laptop, a game console and a radio just in the past 5 months. My PC is locked in a cabinet.
Maybe you should lock them in a cabinet instead.
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