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10th February 2013, 08:16 PM | #401 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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I have been using Windows extensively since 3.1. I have lots of books and have had many an assorted discussion on various features and options and stuff that every version of Windows, since 3.1, has ever had.
But, I didn't need any of that to use the core features. There is a difference between: 1. Delivering an intuitive interface for the main features; while providing additional tools for less common ones that might require some reading. VS. 2. Making an interface that is completely foreign to much of the existing user base, and not-at-all optimized for a large percentage of machines it will run on, even for basic things the OS is supposed to let the person do. All you do is insult my intelligence. This is NOT ABOUT ME. Please stop arguing the arguer. If you can't defend Windows 8 on its own merits, then you have nothing to say here. Go home. |
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10th February 2013, 08:40 PM | #402 |
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I have never heard of anyone getting a performance boost by installing Win 7 to replace XP on the same computer. Win 7 uses more CPU time and RAM than XP.
The performance improvement in Win 8 vs. Win 7 is quite real. It's not just faster boot, which I don't really notice or care about. What I'm seeing is that Windows 8 loads applications faster, it releases memory faster, and operations involving big files or many files don't bog down the system even though the hdd may be thrashing. After I got my laptop all set up, I did some stress-testing with a video editor, stringing together big video files with different containers and codecs, and doing things that will crash a flaky program or even a good one if the hardware and OS can't keep up. I'm very pleased with the results, and this is a budget machine, with an i5 CPU and a 5,400 rpm dog of a hdd. If MS had implemented the mobile UI as an option instead of forcing it onto every desktop, and retained the start button on the desktop UI, the world would be raving about this release. But, they did what they did, and the reviews are mostly negative. |
10th February 2013, 09:37 PM | #403 |
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Icerat: A general truth is that end users do not read manuals or KB articles.
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10th February 2013, 11:35 PM | #404 |
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?
That's quite common practice, as is out and out lying about such sell outs. I can remember a PR guy I worked with who got a story into the press about a game selling out and all he did was to ensure one local store had only a couple of copies and sent some of his team to buy them. His journalist mate then rang up the shop and asked had they sold out, the shop said yes and sure enough the story ran the next day in a national newspaper as "unprecedented demand has resulted in shops running out of stock".
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10th February 2013, 11:40 PM | #405 |
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?
Which is why when you first start a new installation of the Win8 it has a quick demo/tutorial about the new bits.
Mind you those that think the start button is somehow intuitive and obvious should go and read the many complaints about that when it was first introduced. It's not that long ago that the mac fanboys v windows fanboys would always have a "and you have to press" Start" to shutdown". |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th February 2013, 12:26 AM | #406 |
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This cartoon might be relevant: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=211
It occurs to me that the whole "Surface Pro Sold Out" story is fishy for one good reason: Where were the lines? When Apple puts out a new product, there are LOOOOOOONG LINES for it! Really, really, hideously looooong lines. That is true, if they actually sold out of the devices or not. I recall about 3 or so years ago, there were actually some significant lines for Android phones. Some of them, like the first Incredible, were actually sold out so quickly, folks like me had to backorder them. And, yet, not much in the realm of lines for Microsoft's Surface devices. One, I might add, that is actually too easily forgettable. And, it's also insufficient in pointing out exactly where things are. And, of course, only the person who first started the OS will actually see it. So, it's kinda useless. As many complaints as it might have had... there were tons more from people who used Windows 3.1: There was no place to get back to the Program Manager once you were in a program. Some people, ironically, thought you can only run one application at time, if it opened in a maximized form. Then there were the many who thought their applications "disappeared" if they accidentally hit the minimize button or something. No one is born knowing to click a Start button to get to things. But, it sure beat the alternatives in its day, anyway! As far as tradeoffs go, it's not too shabby a one to have to put up with. |
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11th February 2013, 01:05 AM | #407 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th February 2013, 03:05 AM | #408 |
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SInce when was a right click to a shortcut menu a "core feature"?
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So what? That doesn't mean they're not useful for finding out about additional non-core features. |
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11th February 2013, 03:07 AM | #409 |
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11th February 2013, 03:10 AM | #410 |
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11th February 2013, 04:24 AM | #411 |
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?
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11th February 2013, 10:01 AM | #412 |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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11th February 2013, 11:47 AM | #413 |
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I stand corrected on this one point.
I am puzzled as to why they placed access to core features in a right-click menu. That's all. Now, you are contradicting yourself: 1. I said: "Core features are hard to figure out, at first" 2. You said "RTFM! Like I did!" 3. I reply "I should not need to do so for core features" 4. You reply "You don't need to. The interface is inuitive" 5. Now, I am saying "But, you just told me to RTFM!" Make up your mind! A useful feature like the Quick Access menu should NOT be relegated to a right-click menu in the corner, with no visible means to know it is even there. A better-designed OS would have a visible button, that one could left-click to open. It's like someone spending many days climbing to the top of a mountain, only to find out that they could have taken the tram system up there. But, since no one bothered to advertise the tram system, the climber didn't know about it. |
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12th February 2013, 01:12 AM | #414 |
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Because it's a handy shortcut?
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12th February 2013, 03:14 AM | #415 |
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Windows 8 sucks. Even on a virtual Machine. Was there a poll about 8 vs 7/XP already?
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12th February 2013, 07:47 AM | #416 |
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Damn straight, it's a handy shortcut! Wow! If only there was a way to advertise its presence to more people, so it would get used more often. Hmmmm.....
The folks at the Microsoft Store seem to be more empathetic towards people who complain about the lack of the Start button. I take that as a sign that even Microsoft is starting to realize that the one-stop-shop approach is not something that should have been de-emphasized so quickly. What does that have to do with anything? Says the principles of good OS design, that I already went over, that you can't even address without making assumptions about what kind of baby I am, and how stupid and unintelligent I must be, because I don't know how to read a book to tell me how to use the operating system I've been using since I was child. Because, I can justify my arguments on objective grounds, that would benefit more of its users. But, to you: that must mean my opinions are backwards, uninnovative, technologically repressive, old-fashioned, and silly. Am I right? ...says the person whose current avatar looks suspiciously like a Windows 8 wait indicator. |
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12th February 2013, 09:10 AM | #417 |
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12th February 2013, 11:36 AM | #418 |
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First of all, you don't need visual queues for every single implementation of a feature. One queue for one implementation is usually sufficient. The ability to pin items to the taskbar is one implementation of program access. The Start Menu is another. The Start Menu has access to LOTS more applications, and yet it is the one left without the queue.
Second of all, the taskbar pinning does have a vague queue of sorts: When Windows is set up, there are a few icons on there by default. It's not much, but it does get the user thinking: "I wonder how I could put other icons on there?" I already wrote many posts where I cited facts about the OS. Please re-read them. Maybe you missed them, somehow. |
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12th February 2013, 11:41 AM | #419 |
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12th February 2013, 12:30 PM | #420 |
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I take it as a sign of well trained staff exercising good customer management. When some self-proclaimed expert in user interface design comes in there whining about trivial crap and pontificating about the "right" way to do things, they're going to nod sympathetically and pretend to commiserate. Their job is to keep the customer in the store, not to argue with them. |
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12th February 2013, 01:09 PM | #421 |
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You could be right. But, this attitude is different than the one they had when Windows 8 first launched. Which is why I suspect there could be something more to it. Maybe.
Their responses used to be more along the lines of "Ah, but it's actually better this way because...". Now, they don't even try saying things like that. It's like they're tired of doing it so much. Then there's quotes like this that I got from them: "Windows 8 is an experiment, and Microsoft is open to feedback." (might not be an exact quote) Never heard a line like that, at all, from them, when the OS originally launched. |
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12th February 2013, 01:28 PM | #422 |
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Bah. MS does not innovate. They look at what succeeds in the marketplace, and then they scramble to catch up. Netscape was a hit, so MS developed IE. Google was a hit, so MS came up with Bing. Now phones and tablets with a tiled interface are cutting into the PC market, so MS has built a tiled interface into Windows.
You apparently see this as innovation. I see it as a dull, plodding strategy driven by fear. But it has been successful for many years, right? |
13th February 2013, 05:55 AM | #423 |
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13th February 2013, 09:11 AM | #424 |
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I don't think you are comprehending my argument, so I will make it clearer:
In Windows 95 through Windows 7, you can left-click a visible button, which opens up a menu for access to LOTS of things: Programs, documents, settings, shut down, etc. Windows 8 is objectively worse off, because: You need to right-click a corner with no visible cue, to get SOME of those items: Mainly settings, but there is also a Run command and such. But, you must left-click that same mostly-invisible corner for Programs. Then, to shut down, you go to the Settings section of the Charms bar on the right. It's not even in the same corner. Yes, those items on the right-click Quick Access menu can be gotten from other places. But, that just multiplies the number of places you need to go, to get to things. To further clarify the point, let's reverse the POV of my statements. Do you think anyone, in all honesty, would say something like this: "Hey, I've got a brilliant, innovative idea! The Start Menu was one of the most popular, and well-known, and well-used features of Windows. Let's take that thing OFF of there, and completely replace it with a mish-mash of other interfaces that only really make sense in the context of a few models of newer computers, with touch screens!!" The Start Button could have been kept in addition to the Modern UI stuff. But, their motivations to ditch it entirely seems to be ill-advised. |
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13th February 2013, 09:29 AM | #425 |
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You'd think they'd have learnt from the fuss over Office when they took a UI that every body at least new, even if it wasn't exactly loved and then changed it all. I admit somethings have been made a little easier, but I'm still cursing some of the changes because I have to waste time looking for things I used to do easily!
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13th February 2013, 10:26 AM | #426 |
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No visible cue? My windows 8 shows a mini-start screen when I point in the bottom left corner. You sure you've used it?
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You spent pages earlier talking about how there were too many clicks involved in certain things, yet here you promoting "move mouse, click, move mouse, click, confirm" as being better than "press button" Why is that?
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Really, it's not that hard. Point in the same place you always did, get a visual notification (should make you happy) and you get a start menu. It's just not that hard. And my screen no longer has the wasted space of a start button which is almost never used. It's just not that big a deal |
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13th February 2013, 11:53 AM | #427 |
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It doesn't show up until you move the mouse to the corner.
If you have multiple monitors, with one below or to the left of the corner, it won't show up unless the pointer is on the exact pixel. Many computers only have soft power buttons. A few might have hard switches in the back, to reach for. (But, you'd want to close the OS properly, anyway, before hitting that switch) Some computers are locked in cabinets and stuff. Windows 7: 1. Click Start. 2. Click Shutdown. Windows 8: 1. Open Charms bar. 2. Click settings 3. Click Shutdown. Windows 7 is one fewer step for the typical user. Perhaps you're still not getting what I am saying. I am NOT talking about the number of different ways to access the same thing. Both Windows 7 and Windows 8 have a few different ways to access different things. That is not the problem. I am talking about the single, principal way access is granted, for a typical user. In Windows 95 to 7, the Start Menu had almost everything you needed, IN ADDITION to having other ways to get to those things. Window 8 forces you to get to those same things in different ways. There is no built-in option to get it all in one place. Having multiple different ways to access something is a good thing. But, it would be nice if one of those "many ways" was a central hub for the most common or important items. Do you understand the argument now? |
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13th February 2013, 12:24 PM | #428 |
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Which I do, and which I have no problem doing.
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13th February 2013, 02:17 PM | #429 |
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We are talking about OS design. Not hardware.
I am not complaining about it being there. I am saying that this Additional Method could be implemented better. If I stated "The Quick Access Menu should not exist!", then I would be complaining about it being there. But, I am NOT saying that! I am saying: The Quick Access Bar is sooooo handy, they ought to have a little button or something to left-click on, so we can get to it even easier! Of the items in the Quick Access menu, only the Desktop item in on the Start Screen, by default. Not any of the others. (Does being wrong about that mean you've never even used Windows 8? ) Very few of my statements have been corrected. The one about the tutorial showing for new accounts was a recent place I was corrected. There might have been one or two others, if you go back in history. Other than that, where do you get off saying "Again and again you make statements about that are patently false"? I think anyone who uses Windows 8 (without 3rd party start menu replacements) will experience what I am saying for themselves. ETA: I did happen to notice there is one small correction I can make about something I wrote, myself: Windows 7: 1. Click Start. 2. Click Shutdown. Windows 8: 1. Open Charms bar. 2. Click settings 3. Click Power. 4. Click Shutdown. I missed a step in the Windows 8 shut down process. Sorry about that. |
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13th February 2013, 04:35 PM | #430 |
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13th February 2013, 08:00 PM | #431 |
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I think you missed more than that. Maybe it's the way you choose to describe it. Now, I only have XP to compare to, since I jumped from that to Win 8, but I see the progression more like this. If you start with the cursor in mid-screen XP: move cursor left to Start button. W8: move cursor right to cue Charms. XP: Click Start button: W8: Click Settings icon: XP: Click Shut down: W8: Click Power: XP: select shutdown preference (Sleep, restart, etc.) W8: select shutdown preference (Sleep, restart, etc.) Machine powers down. XP: Click OK. Machine powers down. Of course, if you're in the Win 8 desktop you can press <alt>F4 to get a shutdown dialogue. Just like XP. |
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13th February 2013, 11:17 PM | #432 |
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?
Why would you use the power button when you can shutdown from the OS?
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14th February 2013, 03:00 AM | #433 |
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14th February 2013, 03:11 AM | #434 |
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14th February 2013, 04:44 AM | #435 |
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?
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14th February 2013, 05:28 AM | #436 |
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14th February 2013, 09:42 AM | #437 |
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Some people don't have or can't use right mouse buttons.
Right-clicking is often reserved for auxiliary functionality. A feature like the Quick Access menu deserves better than that. Some (but not all) are in the All Apps screen. A bunch of them you can only find with the Settings Search screen, if you stick with the MUI. There might be more places to access some of those options from the Desktop. The point, though, is that they're certainly not all on the Start Screen, at least not by default. |
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14th February 2013, 10:29 AM | #438 |
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Indeed. Forcing the power off is not a good idea unless the system is completely frozen.
I followed the instructions here: http://blog.laptopmag.com/how-to-shu...just-one-click Windows 8, in my estimation, is an outstanding OS - better than Vista or 7. But they have really screwed themselves by tacking on the mobile UI, because for many users, certainly for me, it's not a reasonable interface for the desktop. And that is how it's being judged. But I click through it, it's not really a significant problem, and I am delighted with my new Windows 8 laptop. |
14th February 2013, 12:01 PM | #439 |
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Well, if your 2 year old DOESN'T push every button, pull every cable and pour liquid into every recess s/he sees then you're a lot luckier than I am. I have a 2 and a 3 year old who have destroyed 3 DVD players, a laptop, a game console and a radio just in the past 5 months. My PC is locked in a cabinet.
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14th February 2013, 12:08 PM | #440 |
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