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6th December 2012, 06:06 PM | #41 |
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Well, even my wife (our computer expert and website designer is not happy with the windy8 on my new portable (and, had I known I would have got one with W7. I was seduced by 1TB of onboard storage - I download to portables about a TB every two months but I have to store it up to only 160Gb before it warns me storage is almost full. Once we have the new 'puter fully running
that will be much easier (I hope)... |
6th December 2012, 07:44 PM | #42 | |||
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It's sad that Microsoft did so many things I like (ditching Aero and 3D stuff) but their big challenge to the UI paradigm is so... tablet focused would be the kind phrase, I guess.
The big complaint is that if you want to stay in the desktop you have to go into metro to do everything that used to be right there in the start button. This video is very funny:
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6th December 2012, 10:56 PM | #43 |
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Window mode for metro programs for one. Split screen is not as efficient or productive. Adjustable windows can be very convenient. There were many other ways they could have redesigned the start menu to be more finger friendly. As it is metro icons/widgets are oversized and disruptive.
I agree that there should be an option to easily turn metro on or off. Let us decide how important it is to us. |
7th December 2012, 01:38 AM | #44 |
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My only big issue with The Interface Formerly Known As Metro outside of the massive problems due to it being on a desktop and the massive schizophrenia in switching betwixt it and the traditional desktop is that all the corner and side thingies seem dispersed randomly (and hidden from first observation). Also they tried to kill "folders" and the background filesystem without actually getting rid of them. One of my peeves with the iOS is the lack of proper filesystem access.
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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7th December 2012, 01:56 AM | #45 |
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It's "right there" in the start screen just as much as in the start button. In windows 7 you move to bottom left of the screen and click to get a menu. In windows 8 you move to the bottom left of the screen and click to get a menu.
I don't have a touch screen and I have no problem with this at all. Indeed I find the new start screen a better approach as I don't have the problem of menus being increasingly inaccessible as they get larger. It's also more customizable. It took a couple of weeks to get used to, but now I prefer it.
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Having said that, this is one area MS did screw up. Many of the file associations default to the touch screen apps, which makes no sense for non-touch machines. I don't use the music app, I use windows media player, just like in windows 7. It originally defaulted to the music app if I clicked on an mp3. The Windows 8 default settings assume a touch screen, when many people will first use it on a non-touch machine. This gives bad first impressions until you realise everything you're used to is still there (and often improved) |
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7th December 2012, 02:00 AM | #46 |
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Seriously? You want to use adjustable windows and more than one app visible on a tablet?
I actually find this "criticism" bizarre given the tablet OS competitors don't allow multiple windows at all!
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7th December 2012, 02:43 AM | #47 |
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But look at shut down/restart. First you go to the bottom left and click, then you go to the bottom right and hover to bring up the charms, then you click for Settings, then you click on the Power icon.
I, for one, never would have thought to look under Settings for that. |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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7th December 2012, 04:15 AM | #48 |
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That is a valid point, I know "everyone" according to the tech-heads is meant to be leaving their "device" on all the time but many of us don't and hiding the power off button a few clicks deep is just silly.
Saying that there are plenty of workarounds - for instance I have an icon in my taskbar that shuts down the computer with one click, you can also create a tile for the start menu that will shut down the PC with one click. But that should have been built in. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 04:21 AM | #49 |
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That was never in to be removed! Metro programs are designed to run in a full window or the 2/3 to 1/3 split screen.
That's an aesthetic opinion; my mother for one loves the new start menu, as she has it she used to have to squint to see the little icons and was always clicking on the wrong item with the old start menu. On her Windows 7 I had set her up with large icons on the desktop and created shortcuts for her common programmes, but once she opened an app they would of course be covered over. She loves how you can always get to the large icons without having to "rearrange" (in her view) all your windows. (She's also now decided to use the new "metro" mail app - again she finds it so much easier to use.) There was never an option in Windows from 95 upwards to turn off the start menu so why should it have been added into Windows 8? |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 06:22 AM | #50 |
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Okay, perhaps someone who likes Windows 8 can help me here. I'm running XP (and am planning to upgrade to 7 if too many programs stop being supported in XP). My "All Programs" folder in the Start Menu has 150-200 folders for various program groups, a fair few of which have folders within them which lead to various programs. I have maybe an extra 20 icons on my desktop which lead to programs which are not in my Start Menu or All Programs folder. Under Windows 8 it looks like not only will these programs be listed as large tiles on the desktop, rather than as small amounts of text, but that there will be no folders whatsoever and instead Windows will list every single piece of software on my machine.
My question is - how does this make anything more convenient for me? |
7th December 2012, 06:22 AM | #51 |
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7th December 2012, 06:32 AM | #52 |
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The desktop icons don't change at all.
The start screen only has the apps (think "shortcuts") you want listed there, and they can be arranged and grouped as you wish. You can click on "all apps" to list all installed apps, categorized the same as they are in Windows 7's start menu folders (indeed it imports them from the windows 7 menu if you upgrade). You can edit and move them around in file explorer if you wish (again, same as windows 7). So I suppose the "convenience" is that with Windows 7 you could add a few shortcuts at the top of "start" before it became unwieldy, now you can setup and group as many of them as you wish for quick access. Desktop icons and taskbar shortcuts are the same as windows 7, though there's some improvements, such as being able to have separate taskbars on separate monitors. |
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7th December 2012, 06:55 AM | #53 |
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I just clicked on one of the folders I have in my "All Programs" and saw that within all the nested folders in that one folder I had 39 items. Looking at screenshots of the "All Apps" tab, it seems that Windows 8 can list 35 apps on 1 screen. As it lists all applications flat rather than within folders, albeit grouped, that means that that one folder which currently takes up 1/6th of the width of my screen and 1/44th of the height would now take up the whole of my screen, and still have 5 items which aren't listed.
I've got between 150 and 200 of these folders, many of them with a comparable number of items within them - some with fewer, some with many more. That's a lot of scrolling in order to get to the program I'm looking for. I don't see how that's better. As for the comparisons to Windows 7, I have no idea whether that's good or not, as I've not used it. |
7th December 2012, 07:15 AM | #54 |
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Guess it depends on your screen resolution. I can see in one screen view 8.5 columns and 9 rows, so 70+ programs and can easily scroll to see more or zoom out to see just the group headings and alphabetic shortcuts.
I don't recall ever being able to get anything like that many in one view from the old start menu - indeed I always used to have problems with menus going off the screen when they got to big. I've no idea if you can nest folders/groups in the All Apps screen.
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Alternatively, just stick a shortcut to the top folder on your taskbar or desktop and navigate as folders. |
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7th December 2012, 07:29 AM | #55 |
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So far , the only "advantage" 8 appears to have over 7 is that it has a touchscreen interface. However, I notice that many laptop ads do not make it clear whether or not the machine supports this.
As I don't know whether or not a touch screen actually would be advantageous to me, I shall stick with 7 for my upcoming Asus Eee replacement. |
7th December 2012, 08:03 AM | #56 |
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Because there's just the one "All Programs" menu. The fact that the folders are only the size of a piece of text means that you can fit 44 folders vertically and 6 horizontally. That's 264 on screen at the same time, and each of those folders can contain more folders.
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7th December 2012, 09:05 AM | #57 |
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On most setups windows 8 seems to be faster, but apart from that it's not much different if you don't use touch.
I don't mean a shortcut to the program folder structure, I mean a shortcut to the exact same "Start Menu\Programs" menu folder structure used in XP/7. On my screen that gives me 44 text lines and 10 columns |
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7th December 2012, 09:56 AM | #58 |
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7th December 2012, 10:00 AM | #59 |
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Perhaps you are not a typical user.....
It's interesting that you are still on Windows XP, because in Windows 7 I had pretty much stopped ever using the folder hierarchy to find programs. I'd have my most common applications pinned to the taskbar, and others in "fences" on my desktop; the rest I would run direct by typing into the start menu search box. And not one iota of that have I had to change since I upgraded to Windows 8 - all my old way of working still works - albeit a smoother and with some new graphical effects. However I have in fact made some changes, for instance I can't remember the last time I actually clicked on a desktop icon, I now tend to use the equivalent tiles & groups in the start menu, I find it a hell of lot faster than how I used to work in Windows 7. So I can see how from XP to 8 it could be a big step, but hey you can't stop progress because grandad doesn't like these new-transistor radios with buttons instead of a dial. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 10:01 AM | #60 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 10:04 AM | #61 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 10:07 AM | #62 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 10:39 AM | #63 |
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7th December 2012, 10:44 AM | #64 |
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But apart from improved responsiveness, what are these advantages and added features? ETA- Maybe M$ did a bad job of advertising, maybe I wasn't paying attention. So far I know 8 has a touch interface that matches it's new surface tablet and I know it has big green & purple rectangles where the desktop used to be. Fine, but hardly a reason to change. What does it do that 7 doesn't or what does it do better? |
7th December 2012, 11:15 AM | #65 |
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"Fences" being a 3rd party application. That doesn't speak to the system implemented in the OS being better than the previous one.
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That's nice, but I have no idea why you're posting it in response to my post. |
7th December 2012, 12:48 PM | #66 |
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7th December 2012, 01:25 PM | #67 |
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Because new systems mostly come with windows 8 ?
Other than that - you are spot on ... there was no reason to change from XP for almost a decade, really. Windows 7 did bring some useful and beneficial changes, making an upgrade worthwhile. I think the jury is still out windows 8. |
7th December 2012, 01:54 PM | #68 |
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Eh? Fences isn't part of any Windows, it is just as much "lacking" from XP as it is from Windows ME and Windows NT 3.5, so I have no idea what your comment means.
Which aspect? Still no idea what on earth you are going on about - I used Fences in Windows 7 because of a lack of a good built in feature for layouts and controlling the desktop, the same lack which has been in Windows since Windows 2.... (Indeed I can remember using an add-on back in 3.1 days that allowed you to have sub-folders of icons within a single window!) I would have used Fences when I was running XP - if it had been released back then. And again the answer you have been given is that if you don't wish to take advantage of anything new in Windows 8 you can do that and continue to work the way you are doing on Windows XP. In other words it does everything WIndows XP does and more - whether the "more" is something that you find better or even useful is a different matter. But your criticism seems to be "they've added things that I don't want and not going to use so it's bad". It's like the use of Fences - just like in XP and all other versions of Windows there is no single click for power-off in Windows 8 as a default. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 02:49 PM | #69 |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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7th December 2012, 03:15 PM | #70 |
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Which makes it odd that you'd bring it up out of the blue, if it has no relevance to either me or anything I've said.
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7th December 2012, 03:30 PM | #71 |
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I'm using an EEE 1000H with XP and wondering about the same things... like, when it finally wears out, will I be able to replace it with something that is equally functional?
For me, 7 felt like a sideways move in terms of the UI. Now along comes 8 and it appears they have decided to migrate desktop users to a UI that is optimized for phones and tablets. I don't see how that makes sense. But, what I'm hearing is that it is faster and leaner under the hood, and it can be skinned with a desktop UI. Is that a fair assessment? |
7th December 2012, 07:05 PM | #72 |
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The side benefit of the tablet focus is that it led them to improve resource management (and kill Aero). Which I guess means they always thought us desktop users liked hoggy bloat ?
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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7th December 2012, 07:38 PM | #73 |
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It was a counter illustration to your tale.
Yes you were else why would I have said you werent? You seem to have lost track of your own posts, I still be here when you get yourself back on track! |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago Last edited by Darat; 7th December 2012 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Words I missed out the first time around. |
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7th December 2012, 07:43 PM | #74 |
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No. "Desktop" hasn't gone anywhere, it's still there. The major change that most people with a "traditional" PC setup will notice is the change to the start menu. It's now a full screen menu with a new style and way of organisation.
If you want to have a start menu more like Windows 7 there are utilities that re-create such a menu. I'm running one at the moment (Start8 from Stardock) to see if I would rather fall back to using the old style Start menu, so far it looks like I won't be. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 07:43 PM | #75 |
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7th December 2012, 07:56 PM | #76 |
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Quite seriously - what made you laugh?
Here's an example of my main PC's screen captured just a few minutes ago - I've downsized the image for convenience but I think it still shows what it looks like in use. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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7th December 2012, 08:15 PM | #77 |
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8th December 2012, 12:46 AM | #78 |
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You have to think about hybrid machines like the Surface. It's usable as a desktop and a tablet. Desktop interfaces aren't ideal for tablets, nor vice versa. So now you get the choice of both and can flip between them as needed. You might think that's just extra overhead but I'm finding some tablet optimized apps to be favourites to use on the desktop (eg weather, news) so if I was using them on the tablet I continue to use the exact same apps when I'm at my desktop.
It makes sense. Well here's a screenshot of my Windows 8, as I use it most days (though I made the Chrome and media player windows smaller so you could see the desktops. I use two monitors, often watching something on one screen while working on the other. The Win8 screen cap app grabs both. I've seen supposed expert tech reviews of Windows 8 talking about how the windows store is limited and there's no Chrome! The windows store is for tablet apps, not desktop apps. You can use both. |
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8th December 2012, 01:49 AM | #79 |
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8th December 2012, 02:05 AM | #80 |
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I haven't posted a "tale". I've asked a question.
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