IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 1st January 2013, 12:50 PM   #161
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,283
A couple of weeks ago my old laptop (HP running on Win 7) crashed and died and I had to rush out and replace it quickly. Since I had not heard good things about Win 8, I would have been happy to buy a laptop still running Win 7 but none of the local stores gave me that option.

I got a Lenovo G580 running on Win 8. Considering how quickly I had to buy it and how little research I did, I'm happy with my purchase. Win 8 is not as bad as I thought it would be but I dislike the Metro User interface and almost always only use the "desktop application", as Win 8 describes it.

There are probably things I still have to learn about Win 8, and maybe you can help me out, icerat.

For instance, I could not replicate finding the taskbar in the metro interface. When I point in the upper or lower left hand corner it will show me the active application if I were to switch over to the desktop mode (not sure if that is the currently used terminology -- but that is how I understand it) -- but not all of the applications I currently have running. If I'm in the desktop interface or mode, pointing in the lower left hand corner will show me the start screen in miniature -- clicking on it will bring me back to the metro interface.

Could you tell me how I could replicate what you did?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post

<snip>


Not really, they just made it [my edit: taskbar] rectangular and it appears when you point in the corner. Again, no big deal.

My experience is different here also.

Quote:
Sure, and then once you're used to it you discover it's *quicker* to find things. I love the right click system menu. Much quicker.
I assume that you are talking about when you right click on empty screen real estate in the metro interface, a partial list of applications will come up.

That is convenient, but I don't find it as convenient as the original start menu in the Win 7 or older OS. That start menu would allow you to drill to a complete list of applications which were tiered, so you could find a particular application quickly in less screen space. Also it allowed you to quickly go to the Control Panel and change settings or to turn off the machine. (Yes, it's ironic that clicking on the Start Menu was the step to take to turn the machine off.)

So my experience is that I can still do what I need to do in Win 8, but sometimes it takes more navigating and more clicks. And the current OS probably makes it less clear to someone new to computers how the various software is organized.

I'm still configuring my laptop to make it more convenient for me to use. For example, I'm pinning commonly used programs to the taskbar. That is helpful, but its not as clear as how the taskbar worked in Win XP which had a clear distinction between applications which could be launched quickly and applications which were currently running. I have to remember which of my applications that are pinned to my taskbar are running.

I tried setting up a short cut to turn of my laptop quickly, but that didn't work. Instead of turning it off quickly, it hung for minutes. I'm sure that its possible to do, I probably just chose the wrong guy's blog to copy the instructions from.

I will probably install Start8 or Classic Shell mentioned above in this thread to emulate the Start Menu function. This way I'll not only be able to get to any application or the control panel quickly, but I will also be able to shut off my machine with one or two fewer clicks.

Wowbagger, FFed and Darat -- thanks for mentioning those utilities.
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st January 2013, 05:21 PM   #162
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
It is just another piece of psychology Win8 fails to handle well. That, I might add, no other OS on the desktop has to deal with. (Though, it is a known issue on smartphones, with their premium on real estate and such.)
Oh right, so I'm just imagining the way the old start menu used to cover my screen when it got too populated. Fortunately I'm one of those rare people who could apparently remember what it was I was looking for.

Quote:
And, once you do know to click the corner, it STILL does not present everything the Start Menu did. You either have to use the Charms bar or Search for those.
Like what? And not in the right click power menu? (or whatever it's called)

Quote:
The whole concept of "finding where the search results are" is a particularly amusing issue with Win8.
Oh yes, it took me all of, I don't know, doing it maybe once before I understand the results were categorised under "apps", "settings" and "files".

Quote:
But, with fewer on screen prompts. A better operating system would have the best of both worlds: The *quicker* access to things you like, plus the easy-to-find access others might enjoy.
The search function finds things far more easily than the old system of trying to remember what particular menu something was under. Under windows 7 different apps installed things in all sorts of different ways. A lot of stuff I installed set itself up in the menu under the name of the developer. When it's something I use rarely (thus not pinned to the taskbar) it usually takes me quite a while to find.

Much easier now.

I just described most of Windows 7 to you. How about that!

Quote:
It is not the milliseconds to carry out tasks that matters. It's the minutes required to figure out how to use the operating system.
If you don't want to learn something new, don't. Windows 7 EOL isn't for another 7 years.

Quote:
That is no excuse.

Power Users will use them. IT technicians will use them. Developers will often use them. Courses in learning the OS will teach a lot of them.
Rarely used things are EASIER to find in Windows 8 than Windows 7.

We are talking about the difference between a single column of items one can easily scan down vs. a lot of blocks that are often in disjointed shapes.

Huh? (1) The blocks are whatever size YOU CHOOSE, not disjointed
(2) Since when was a windows 7 menu "a single column"? Even straight off the start button 2 columns appear, and then you have to work your way in and out of different menus to find what you're looking for. Scrolling with the mouse wheel is FAR more elegant.

Quote:
Since a lot of them use transforming images, it takes a little more effort to figure out which tile actually belongs to what application, sometimes.
I moved from a country where they drive on the left to a country where they drive on the right. It took me time to get used to it.

Quote:
And columns, in All Apps, awkwardly end on the bottom and continue on the top of the next one, which actually detracts from any intended organization on that screen.
You mean as opposed to ... ending on the bottom and continuing on the top of the next one, just like in Windows 7?

Quote:
I will admit grouping on the Start screen is easier in Win8 than the menu in Win7. But, that is hardly a task one needs to deal with too often. And, it is not like Win7 was a total loser: Keeping items pinned to the Start Menu was actually less cluttered, anyway.
And pinning to the taskbar is even better!

Quote:
2. More importantly: I am NOT making a statement about sales. It happens that sales of Win8 seem to be disappointing to Microsoft.
We have no idea. The "poor sales" meme seems mostly to be rumour. Microsoft's reports are upbeat.

Personally I expect they won't be as good as in the past as the desktop is decreasing in importance as people move to tablets, phones, and other appliances.

Microsoft really needs to think about coming up with an OS that can help cross that bridge ....

Oh wait ....

Quote:
But, that's beside the point. I never claimed it would be a flop. I am pointing out design flaws that could impact productivity and usability, independently of whether or not they make any impact on sales.
The only real "design flaw" you've pointed out is that it takes time to get used to if your used to something else.

Well duh.

I have a 2yr and a 7yr old son. They're used to tablets and phones and touchscreens, and the latter has been using W8 on his laptop for some months now.

The 7yr old had zero problems transitioning to W8 from W7 (as a 6yr old) and the 2yr old keeps trying to touch and swipe the non-touch screen on my desktop and getting frustrated when it doesn't work.

Quote:
Even if Windows 8 sold like hotcakes: software and devices flying off the shelves faster than even the iPads, these issues I am pointing out would NOT just go away.
You're right, it will always be difficult to move from driving on the left to driving on the right. It won't go away.

Quote:
That is true. My list is being organized into different categories, with "included apps" being one of them.
The included apps are designed for touch screens, evaluating them on anything else isn't sensible.

Quote:
But, it does remind us about few things:
1. The OS was pushed out the door prematurely.
All software is.

Quote:
2. The more you use it, the more issues unique to it you will find.
I've been using it for many months now, and it's only gotten better as I've found new things.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st January 2013, 05:41 PM   #163
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
[quote=Kaylee;8885449]
Quote:
There are probably things I still have to learn about Win 8, and maybe you can help me out, icerat.

For instance, I could not replicate finding the taskbar in the metro interface.
The taskbar doesn't exist in the metro interface, which is designed for primarily for tablets.

Quote:
When I point in the upper or lower left hand corner it will show me the active application if I were to switch over to the desktop mode (not sure if that is the currently used terminology -- but that is how I understand it) -- but not all of the applications I currently have running. If I'm in the desktop interface or mode, pointing in the lower left hand corner will show me the start screen in miniature -- clicking on it will bring me back to the metro interface.
Pointing to the top or bottom left is equivalent to a "left swipe" on a touch screen and will show you the full screen "metro" apps that are currently running, plus the desktop if you're using it. It doesn't show desktop apps.

The start screen is simply a replacement to the old start menu, just with a different look and approach that is viable with touch interfaces.

Quote:
I assume that you are talking about when you right click on empty screen real estate in the metro interface, a partial list of applications will come up.
No, I rarely use the "metro" apps as I don't have a touch screen. I use the newsreader and weather as I like the apps, but apart from that I live in desktop mode so it's just like Windows 7.

Moving to the bottom left makes the Start screen icon appear. Right click it instead of left click and you get quick access to a "power user" type of menu, with direct links to Control panel, Command Prompt, Device Manager and many others. Similar to some of the stuff that appears by default in the 2nd column of the Windows 7 start menu

Quote:
That is convenient, but I don't find it as convenient as the original start menu in the Win 7 or older OS. That start menu would allow you to drill to a complete list of applications which were tiered, so you could find a particular application quickly in less screen space. Also it allowed you to quickly go to the Control Panel and change settings or to turn off the machine. (Yes, it's ironic that clicking on the Start Menu was the step to take to turn the machine off.)
You should have your apps prioritised -

(1) pinned to taskbar
(2) pinned to start screen, organised in logical groups you choose

If I want a particular app that I don't have pinned, I just hit the windows key and start typing the name, it appears pretty much straight away.

Otherwise, hit windows key (or left click on the start screen icon), then right click and select "all apps" and you'll find them all sorted in groups the same as they were in Windows 7. I pretty much never go there

Quote:
So my experience is that I can still do what I need to do in Win 8, but sometimes it takes more navigating and more clicks. And the current OS probably makes it less clear to someone new to computers how the various software is organized.
This is one place they failed. Windows 8 is great for neophytes, but they really should have had some sort of tutorial for people upgrading from Windows 7. It took me a while to discover the right click "power user" menu, I should have been told straight away.

As for turning on and off, bottom right corner, settings, power. It's obvious to me though that it's been designed with "always on" in mind, ie you go in to sleep or hibernation rather than turning off completely. So with a laptop, you just close the screen and it should shut down, or just press the power button briefly.

I realised a couple of years ago that I'd gotten so tied in to using a mouse that I'd forgotten how a lot of things are much quicker without it, like hitting the windows key for menu, rather than point and click, or hitting the power button to sleep or turn off, rather than go through a menu.

Quote:
I'm still configuring my laptop to make it more convenient for me to use. For example, I'm pinning commonly used programs to the taskbar. That is helpful, but its not as clear as how the taskbar worked in Win XP which had a clear distinction between applications which could be launched quickly and applications which were currently running. I have to remember which of my applications that are pinned to my taskbar are running.
If it's running it's "embossed", if it's not it's "flat".

Quote:
I tried setting up a short cut to turn of my laptop quickly, but that didn't work. Instead of turning it off quickly, it hung for minutes. I'm sure that its possible to do, I probably just chose the wrong guy's blog to copy the instructions from.
Right click in the bottom left corner and select "power options". There'll be options there about what to do when you close the lid or press the on off switch (much the same as there was in windows 7).
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st January 2013, 07:26 PM   #164
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Like what? And not in the right click power menu? (or whatever it's called)
It's the context menu...or at least that is what is was called in the past. Don't know if W8 terminology has changed.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I have a 2yr and a 7yr old son. They're used to tablets and phones and touchscreens, and the latter has been using W8 on his laptop for some months now.
Kids - especially the 2yo - should be using screens, tablets, etc. very, very little at that age. I sure hope you limit their "tech time".
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 12:41 PM   #165
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
<snip>

For instance, I could not replicate finding the taskbar in the metro interface. When I point in the upper or lower left hand corner it will show me the active application if I were to switch over to the desktop mode (not sure if that is the currently used terminology -- but that is how I understand it) -- but not all of the applications I currently have running. If I'm in the desktop interface or mode, pointing in the lower left hand corner will show me the start screen in miniature -- clicking on it will bring me back to the metro interface.

<snip>

Not sure if I am answering the right question, so please be patient.

When I float my cursor in the upper left corner I get a thumbnail of the screen of the last currently running app I used. If I have more than one going then sliding the cursor down the left side of the screen from inside that thumbnail gives me a column of thumbnails of all the others.

These will be all the tasks I have running currently. Like a task bar.

Clicking on any of them brings that one up to the forefront. Right clicking brings up menu options to close that one or snap it to one side of the screen or the other.

Aside from not living at the bottom of the screen all the time, that's pretty much what my XP task bar did. (Ok, not the snapping thing. )

Last edited by quadraginta; 2nd January 2013 at 12:43 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 12:52 PM   #166
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Oh right, so I'm just imagining the way the old start menu used to cover my screen when it got too populated. Fortunately I'm one of those rare people who could apparently remember what it was I was looking for.
I just think that a supposedly world-class purveyor of operating systems would have had that covered. That's all.

Most others do.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Like what? And not in the right click power menu? (or whatever it's called)
That and Control Panel, Administrative Tools, "Run…", Help and Support, document related folders, etc.

Plus, on on-screen indication of where one can Search for other things.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Oh yes, it took me all of, I don't know, doing it maybe once before I understand the results were categorised under "apps", "settings" and "files".
Which is ridiculous and counter-intuitive.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Huh? (1) The blocks are whatever size YOU CHOOSE, not disjointed
(2) Since when was a windows 7 menu "a single column"? Even straight off the start button 2 columns appear, and then you have to work your way in and out of different menus to find what you're looking for. Scrolling with the mouse wheel is FAR more elegant.
By default, the blocks are different shapes with different things on them. They throw this at you, without taking into consideration that, maybe, it's a mess to look at, for lots of people.

Windows 7 Start Menu remains a single column of programs, even after you click on a folder.

Folders might be confusing, you are right. But, that is why the Search box is there. Yes, you can also Search in Windows 8, but if you just want to see what is installed: You have to deal with the blocks.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I moved from a country where they drive on the left to a country where they drive on the right. It took me time to get used to it.
I hope you realize this is NOT merely about getting used to something. Once you DO get used to it, many people are left worse off!

A kidnapping victim can get used to hanging around with their captors. Does that mean the captors are just as good, or even an improvement, over their previous friends and family?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You mean as opposed to ... ending on the bottom and continuing on the top of the next one, just like in Windows 7?
The file lists in Windows 7, including the Start Menu, go down a single column. In the few places there is more than one column, categories are NOT broken up between two or more columns.

In Windows 8 Modern UI (this does not apply to the Desktop), columns just keep on continuing onward, regardless of where category breaks are.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Microsoft really needs to think about coming up with an OS that can help cross that bridge ....
Yes. How about an OS that can function as a world class champion in ALL environments it is expected to be installed on? Not forsaking features for one class of devices for the sake of pushing another.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The only real "design flaw" you've pointed out is that it takes time to get used to if your used to something else.
Once you DO get used to it, many (but not all) find themselves worse off.

Worse off because:
* You still have to be wary of control issues, such as sudden task swapping on tablet devices
* the pointless inconsistencies are still pointless
* lack of on-screen prompts will not be there to help you if you do forget where to go, or someone else needs to use the machine
*context amnesia
* Items once confined to a corner menu are now scattered in several places, which wastes time and energy, even after you get used to it.
* Etc.

And, other operating systems are ahead of the game: Android, iOS, Blackberry 10, Ubuntu Linux, and even Windows 7 with a 3rd party tablet UI stuck onto it, etc. The time you wasted getting used to Win8 in the first place, you could have already gotten more done with any of those other alternatives.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The included apps are designed for touch screens, evaluating them on anything else isn't sensible.
My issues with the included apps are largely independent of the device, such as:
* Photos app requiring a MICROSOFT account before browsing FACEBOOK photos. How does THAT make sense?! (and, there is no built-in Desktop equivalent for this, anymore, like there used to be)
* The Store not letting me install anything, and not telling me why.
* The general low information density of each one.
* Etc.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
All software is.
Usually not core components of operating systems.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 01:44 PM   #167
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Kids - especially the 2yo - should be using screens, tablets, etc. very, very little at that age. I sure hope you limit their "tech time".
If I don't, constant reruns of "The wheels on the bus go round and round" on youtube would drive me insane
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 02:08 PM   #168
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
By default, the blocks are different shapes with different things on them. They throw this at you, without taking into consideration that, maybe, it's a mess to look at, for lots of people.
Which is why you customise it however you want!

Quote:
Windows 7 Start Menu remains a single column of programs, even after you click on a folder.
Uhuh. Just one column



Quote:
Folders might be confusing, you are right. But, that is why the Search box is there. Yes, you can also Search in Windows 8, but if you just want to see what is installed: You have to deal with the blocks.
Yeah, we know you don't like blocks. Big deal. I like them, you don't.

Quote:
I hope you realize this is NOT merely about getting used to something. Once you DO get used to it, many people are left worse off!
Sure, some might be. Many? who knows. But guess what - many people might be better off! I feel better off.

Quote:
The file lists in Windows 7, including the Start Menu, go down a single column. In the few places there is more than one column, categories are NOT broken up between two or more columns.
They were in Windows XP. They changed. People survived.

Quote:
In Windows 8 Modern UI (this does not apply to the Desktop), columns just keep on continuing onward, regardless of where category breaks are.
I don't even understand what you're talking about here, which says to me you don't either.

Quote:
* You still have to be wary of control issues, such as sudden task swapping on tablet devices
No more than on any other tablet OS.

[quote] The time you wasted getting used to Win8 in the first place, you could have already gotten more done with any of those other alternatives.

Right, so the half hour it took to get more productive with Windows 8 could have been spent being less productive for half an hour somewhere else. I hope you don't run a business.

My issues with the included apps are largely independent of the device, such as:
Quote:
* Photos app requiring a MICROSOFT account before browsing FACEBOOK photos. How does THAT make sense?! (and, there is no built-in Desktop equivalent for this, anymore, like there used to be)
Quote:
* The Store not letting me install anything, and not telling me why.
I bought a high end android tablet a couple of weeks ago. I ran one of the include apps today. It failed and wouldn't tell me why, just said it failed.

Oh look. I just ran Google Play on it. You know, the Android Store. It says "no connection. Retry".

I have both wifi and 4G connections active and can use them no problems at all with other apps.

Stupid Android OS!

Quote:
Usually not core components of operating systems.
Really? I guess all those early service packs and updates on every new OS are just in my imagination then....
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 03:49 PM   #169
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Uhuh. Just one column.
Two. One contains icons the other text.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 04:00 PM   #170
boooeee
Dart Fener
 
boooeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,671
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Kids - especially the 2yo - should be using screens, tablets, etc. very, very little at that age. I sure hope you limit their "tech time".

A bit off topic, but why do you say this?
boooeee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 04:07 PM   #171
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Two. One contains icons the other text.
Say what? If you're counting the icons as a separate column, there's three columns. Icons, text, text (and a picture at the top of the second column of text)
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 04:42 PM   #172
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
<snip>

By default, the blocks are different shapes with different things on them. They throw this at you, without taking into consideration that, maybe, it's a mess to look at, for lots of people.

Windows 7 Start Menu remains a single column of programs, even after you click on a folder.

Folders might be confusing, you are right. But, that is why the Search box is there. Yes, you can also Search in Windows 8, but if you just want to see what is installed: You have to deal with the blocks.

<snip>

Maybe I'm misunderstanding again.

I move my cursor to the right side of the screen, select the search "charm" (magnifying glass) and click on "Apps".

I get to see every program on the computer ... in lists ... by category. No blocks.

It even has oodles of admin tools if you're logged in that way.

The only time I ever use the metro screen is for faster access to things I don't want cluttering up the quick start bar. The ones I'm most liable to use I move over to the left. It's a convenience, not an impediment.

I'm almost (but not quite ) getting soft-hearted about the whole "widget" thing. I can tell my resistance is slipping.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 05:46 PM   #173
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Uhuh. Just one column
The Programs list is in a single column.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Sure, some might be. Many? who knows. But guess what - many people might be better off! I feel better off.
When the OS is objectively worse, in several regards, this is unlikely.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I don't even understand what you're talking about here, which says to me you don't either.
Google "Windows 8 All Apps" for examples. Here is one to look at:

http://static.arstechnica.net/04-20-...s/all-apps.png

Notice how Microsoft Express only has two items in one column, making one think perhaps there are only 2 items in that category? To see the others, you have to awkwardly continue from the top of the next, where 2 more icons for that category are to be found.

It is even worse for Visual Studio 11: The main program isn't even prominently located under its own category!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
They were in Windows XP. They changed. People survived.
Even when multiple columns were used, you didn't have the issue I linked to above, where one category would continue at the top of the next column. Unless it was a really long list. Even then, the next category after did not get planted below it.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No more than on any other tablet OS.
Where screen real estate is a premium, you have a built-in excuse for keeping things off to the sides for swiping.

If Windows 8 is to be installed on machines with larger screens, there ought to have been a better way to handle things for those larger screens.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Right, so the half hour it took to get more productive with Windows 8 could have been spent being less productive for half an hour somewhere else. I hope you don't run a business.
I DO run a business, in fact. But, this NOT about me. I am trying to communicate issues with the OS and its UI, independently of whether or not I can manage to handle them, myself.

If one is going to spend time getting used to something, there should be some gains to be had at the end. With Android, there were plenty of gains. And, as a bonus, not even much of a learning curve. (Not even for .NET developers aiming to make Java-based apps. for it!)

You never see anyone complaining that iOS was as hard to use.

One could even argue, fairly, that Windows 8 Phone works mostly adequately on phones.

But Windows 8 (not Phone) has a steeper learning curve than any of those. And, for too many users, nothing advantageous is going to come out of the new UI.

Did you see the Ubuntu Phone interface, yet? It has all kinds of swipy things around the edges, and it manages to a much more elegant job (not merely aesthetically, but also psychologically) than Window 8. They put a LOT of thought into how to lay things out. (Even if it is not quite perfect, either)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Really? I guess all those early service packs and updates on every new OS are just in my imagination then....
These are not bugs we are talking about. They are design flaws based on deliberate decisions. These are the sorts of things that are unlikely to be addressed with service packs, (not unless the complaints are too furious).


One thing I find really telling is how Windows Server 2012 was designed. Here, too, they were tempted to chuck some old Windows things out the door: The Start Button. And, they gave it the full-screen Start Screen.
But, then they realized the types of users who use Windows Server would be tearing their hair out. So, they increased visibility of access to applications in other ways: The Server Manager presents more modules at once, in a fairly well thought-out dashboard layout, for example.

It feels like they are saying: "Okay, techies, we know the new Start Screen sucks, but our bosses made us do it, and you know how they are. So, we'll try to make it up to you the best we can. Okay?"
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 05:52 PM   #174
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I move my cursor to the right side of the screen, select the search "charm" (magnifying glass) and click on "Apps".

I get to see every program on the computer ... in lists ... by category. No blocks.
There are two different things I was talking about, that might have gotten muddled:

The Start Screen, which is multi-sized blocks, arranged rather awkwardly. Though, you can re-arrange them, at least.

The All Apps screen, which is not the same sort of haphazard blocks. But, here I take issue with how the columns are laid out. (See the "Microsoft Express" and "Visual Studio" example in my comments to icerat.)
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 06:09 PM   #175
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
There are two different things I was talking about, that might have gotten muddled:

The Start Screen, which is multi-sized blocks, arranged rather awkwardly. Though, you can re-arrange them, at least.

The All Apps screen, which is not the same sort of haphazard blocks. But, here I take issue with how the columns are laid out. (See the "Microsoft Express" and "Visual Studio" example in my comments to icerat.)

Okay.

I'm not that bothered by how the columns are laid out. They aren't any more or less trouble for me than the "All Programs" screen in XP's Start menu.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 07:06 PM   #176
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I DO run a business, in fact. But, this NOT about me. I am trying to communicate issues with the OS and its UI, independently of whether or not I can manage to handle them, myself.
Except you're not, and can't. Pretty much by definition, judging an interface is ultimately subjective.

Things like whether you prefer scrolling over point and click, or think blocks are "baby like" or like to hit the win-key or not - they're all ultimately subjective.

In this discussion you often make certain claims about how something is harder, or less productive in Windows 8, and I regularly give a contrary opinion, which you usually just ignore or dismiss.

I like Windows 8. I prefer it to Windows 7. Others here and elsewhere have reported similar opinions.

You don't, and that's just fine by me. Just stop with the bogus claims of objectivity.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 07:49 PM   #177
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not that bothered by how the columns are laid out. They aren't any more or less trouble for me than the "All Programs" screen in XP's Start menu.
In XP's Start Menu, there was one column at a time generated, to scan down. Not perfect, but still better than Windows 8.
It is generally easier for a user to scan down the programs, and understand what is under which category, with XP.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Except you're not, and can't. Pretty much by definition, judging an interface is ultimately subjective.
I suspect we can agree that certain things are objectively bad for interfaces. Even if I have to use extreme examples to illustrate the point:

Imagine an Operating System UI that chose what order to place program icons based on some theme for the day, as determined by the OS company, which would appear completely random and arbitrary to the user. And, there was no way to change it. Furthermore, icons would all be grayed out and descriptive labels missing, at first. The icons would only go full color, and have their labels shown after the mouse hovers over each one for 3 seconds.

Imagine an OS that would constantly bombard you with "Are you sure?" prompts, for EVERYTHING you did. Click on any program icon "Are you sure you want to open that program?". Click Search: "Are you sure you are searching for something, now?". Click Help: "Are you sure you need help with something?" Click a specific topic in the Help menu: "Are you sure you need help on that particular topic?". You click Save while writing a letter: "Are you sure you wish to save your work?". And, whenever you highlight some text, and click Bold: "Are you sure that text should be Bold?", etc., etc.

Imagine an OS where there was no program menu to get to, at all. Program icons would move around on the screen, on timed basis. Perhaps once every 30 seconds. And you had to "catch them" before you could click on them.

None of these examples really exist in any major OS. But, can you at least agree that they would be objectively bad?

There is a science to developing a user interface. It not merely an art. There are general principles, such as consistency, control, conveyance, etc. that one of the videos I linked to talked about. There are practical psychology aspects that need to be taken into consideration. There is a truckload of case history for what works and what does not, and why, when it comes to these things.

In short, there are, in fact, ways to screw up an operating system UI, that are objectively bad.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
In this discussion you often make certain claims about how something is harder, or less productive in Windows 8, and I regularly give a contrary opinion, which you usually just ignore or dismiss.
I am trying to lay out specific reasons why. I am not merely dismissing your opinions.

For example, there are very specific reasons why the full-screen Start Screen is a bad idea for desktops. One of them is loss of context, the so-called "refrigerator effect". YOU were the one who dismissed this as simply not important.

The "baby-clocks" wording I sometimes use might be subjective. But, you will notice I am not focusing on that very much. I would rather focus more on the objective objections.


Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I like Windows 8. I prefer it to Windows 7. Others here and elsewhere have reported similar opinions.
I am not trying to take Windows 8 away from you. I am trying to communicate why it is a bad OS, in general. Please understand there is a difference.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You don't, and that's just fine by me. Just stop with the bogus claims of objectivity.
Each and every one of my claims is backed up with independently verifiable evidence. They might not be so important to some people, such as yourself. But, they are NOT bogus.

I can demonstrate, in a court of law (hypothetically speaking), the OS is inconsistent in many places. Maybe, you might say, the OS can afford to be a little inconsistent, and that people will get used to it. But, that does NOT mean the inconsistencies are not there. No other OS has them.

I can also demonstrate, in that same hypothetical court of law, that the Modern UI presents unique control issues. If I scroll horizontally, the pointer will sometimes catch a vertical box, and scroll that instead, in a vertical manner. Perhaps, you might say, people will get used to it, and that it is really no big deal. But, that does NOT make the issue go away. No other OS has this problem built into it.

I could go on, but I hope you see what I am getting at.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 2nd January 2013 at 07:53 PM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 07:50 PM   #178
Pantaz
Muse
 
Pantaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 982
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
... These are not bugs we are talking about. They are design flaws based on deliberate decisions. ...
I agree. Having shown Win8 (on a desktop PC) to several "average users" (non-techies), they universally express immediate dislike. Now, this doesn't mean they will not be able to use it, or even have excessive difficulty in learning. It does, in my opinion, demonstrate that some/many people will have difficulty simply because the look & feel is so far removed from what they have come to know over years of experience.

The vast majority of users are not "computer savvy", just as the majority of drivers are not "gear heads". They use computers/cars simply as a tool, with no desire to learn the why/how of the inner workings.
Pantaz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 07:54 PM   #179
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by boooeee View Post
A bit off topic, but why do you say this?
As I understand it, there are a couple of problems. First is a shortening of kid's attention span. On screen there is almost always something happening or a user response is expected emphasized sometimes with sound.. Too much of that trains the kid's brains to always be expecting something to happen. But much of learning requires quiet, sustained concentration which can be stunted by excessive gaming, video, etc.

Second, it rather poorly encourages imagination. If, for example, a kid is reading a book, they must imagine the characters, the action, etc. But video and games remove much of that requirement by making too much explicit.

As an aside, that is why I don't generally go to see movies where I've read the book. My imagination is always so different from the screen version and I certainly like my own view better.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 08:09 PM   #180
ShadowSot
Graduate Poster
 
ShadowSot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 1,232
I just hate how the apps work. See, like when using Skype I tend to browse the internet, switch back when I get a message, then continue browsing or reading or whatever.
Moving it to full screen and having to switch windows isn't a big gripe, but with Skype I keep having issues where I don't receive the alert that I've received the message or I had many issues with getting logged out when I switched back to desktop.
That seems to have been (mostly) fixed with an update, but I'm still not getting a notice when people log in.
This caused me trouble with a girl I was seeing, let me tell you.

Lots of my gripes are just small annoyances that sort of accumulate.
__________________
I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life.
- Darryl Worley
The Stupid! It burns!
ShadowSot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 08:43 PM   #181
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not that bothered by how the columns are laid out. They aren't any more or less trouble for me than the "All Programs" screen in XP's Start menu.
In XP's Start Menu, there was one column at a time generated, to scan down. Not perfect, but still better than Windows 8.
It is generally easier for a user to scan down the programs, and understand what is under which category, with XP.

Perhaps for you. I haven't found either one to be noticeably superior to the other. Both are quite manageable in my opinion.

Quote:

<snip>

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I like Windows 8. I prefer it to Windows 7. Others here and elsewhere have reported similar opinions.
I am not trying to take Windows 8 away from you. I am trying to communicate why it is a bad OS, in general. Please understand there is a difference.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You don't, and that's just fine by me. Just stop with the bogus claims of objectivity.
Each and every one of my claims is backed up with independently verifiable evidence. They might not be so important to some people, such as yourself. But, they are NOT bogus.

<snip>

There seems to be some confusion. I am not the author of either of these two statements you have attributed to me, so I am uncertain how to respond.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

Last edited by quadraginta; 2nd January 2013 at 08:50 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 09:01 PM   #182
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,283
Originally Posted by icerat View Post

The taskbar doesn't exist in the metro interface, which is designed for primarily for tablets.



Pointing to the top or bottom left is equivalent to a "left swipe" on a touch screen and will show you the full screen "metro" apps that are currently running, plus the desktop if you're using it. It doesn't show desktop apps.

The start screen is simply a replacement to the old start menu, just with a different look and approach that is viable with touch interfaces.



No, I rarely use the "metro" apps as I don't have a touch screen. I use the newsreader and weather as I like the apps, but apart from that I live in desktop mode so it's just like Windows 7.

Moving to the bottom left makes the Start screen icon appear. Right click it instead of left click and you get quick access to a "power user" type of menu, with direct links to Control panel, Command Prompt, Device Manager and many others. Similar to some of the stuff that appears by default in the 2nd column of the Windows 7 start menu



You should have your apps prioritised -

(1) pinned to taskbar
(2) pinned to start screen, organised in logical groups you choose

If I want a particular app that I don't have pinned, I just hit the windows key and start typing the name, it appears pretty much straight away.

Otherwise, hit windows key (or left click on the start screen icon), then right click and select "all apps" and you'll find them all sorted in groups the same as they were in Windows 7. I pretty much never go there



This is one place they failed. Windows 8 is great for neophytes, but they really should have had some sort of tutorial for people upgrading from Windows 7. It took me a while to discover the right click "power user" menu, I should have been told straight away.

As for turning on and off, bottom right corner, settings, power. It's obvious to me though that it's been designed with "always on" in mind, ie you go in to sleep or hibernation rather than turning off completely. So with a laptop, you just close the screen and it should shut down, or just press the power button briefly.

I realised a couple of years ago that I'd gotten so tied in to using a mouse that I'd forgotten how a lot of things are much quicker without it, like hitting the windows key for menu, rather than point and click, or hitting the power button to sleep or turn off, rather than go through a menu.



If it's running it's "embossed", if it's not it's "flat".



Right click in the bottom left corner and select "power options". There'll be options there about what to do when you close the lid or press the on off switch (much the same as there was in windows 7).

You saved me a lot of time, icerat! Thank you! And I can't believe I didn't notice that the active apps on the taskbar were embossed. Once you mentioned it, the difference was obvious.

I don't know why MS prefers that we always keep our machines in sleep mode rather than powering them down occasionally, but I prefer to shut mine down at the end of the day. I reprogrammed my power switch to do that immediately. It was very easy -- thanks for explaining how to do that also.

In hindsight, I think this is one upgrade that demands that the user RTFM. In the past I haven't found MS manuals that helpful, but their current version has a quick intro to Win 8 at the beginning of the "Windows Help and Support" document that is surprisingly helpful.

I still don't care for Win 8's layout but that doesn't surprise me. It does not appear to be MS strong point IMHO. Just one example -- the Excel menu.

I can't blame MS for wanting to make the user interface more similar among the various platforms that their OS runs on -- but I think that a few exceptions for the PC platform would have been OK ... esp a tiered instead of a flat approach towards the listing of the applications.

But after reading your quoted post and also quadraginta's I now believe that the many of the professional reviewers have been unjustly too harsh in their assessment of Win 8. It seems to me that they should have taken time out to RTFM. I doubt that most of them did so. I tend to skip that step myself, but sometimes it's worth it ...

Last edited by Kaylee; 2nd January 2013 at 09:03 PM.
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 09:10 PM   #183
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,283
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not sure if I am answering the right question, so please be patient.

When I float my cursor in the upper left corner I get a thumbnail of the screen of the last currently running app I used. If I have more than one going then sliding the cursor down the left side of the screen from inside that thumbnail gives me a column of thumbnails of all the others.

These will be all the tasks I have running currently. Like a task bar.

Clicking on any of them brings that one up to the forefront. Right clicking brings up menu options to close that one or snap it to one side of the screen or the other.

Aside from not living at the bottom of the screen all the time, that's pretty much what my XP task bar did. (Ok, not the snapping thing. )
I'll try playing around with it later, that does sound similar to the XP task bar. But here I do agree with Wowbagger and some of the other posters in this thread that on a PC it is better to have the taskbar in sight. IIRC, it was an option to set up the taskbar to be hidden most of the time in XP. Perhaps a future Win 8 upgrade will allow the user to choose to have the "task bar" visible most of the time in the metro interface.
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:18 PM   #184
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There seems to be some confusion. I am not the author of either of these two statements you have attributed to me, so I am uncertain how to respond.
Whoops! That was supposed to be responses for icerat. Sorry.

Too late to edit the post now.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:05 AM   #185
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
I just hate how the apps work. See, like when using Skype I tend to browse the internet, switch back when I get a message, then continue browsing or reading or whatever.
Moving it to full screen and having to switch windows isn't a big gripe, but with Skype I keep having issues where I don't receive the alert that I've received the message or I had many issues with getting logged out when I switched back to desktop.
That seems to have been (mostly) fixed with an update, but I'm still not getting a notice when people log in.
This caused me trouble with a girl I was seeing, let me tell you.

Lots of my gripes are just small annoyances that sort of accumulate.
Since none of these issues exist on the Windows 8 desktop I assume you're using Windows 8 on a tablet? Unlike with other tablet OS, you can swipe the App to just take up a quarter of the screen on the side with your browser taking up the rest of the screen, no need to switch
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:08 AM   #186
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
But after reading your quoted post and also quadraginta's I now believe that the many of the professional reviewers have been unjustly too harsh in their assessment of Win 8. It seems to me that they should have taken time out to RTFM. I doubt that most of them did so. I tend to skip that step myself, but sometimes it's worth it ...
Not entirely there fault. I downloaded upgrades to two systems and downloaded a fresh install for another and Microsoft at no time (that I saw) provided an FM or link to one. There clearly should have been a "welcome to windows 8" type of app with the differences. During the install itself there were a few tips, but who sits staring at the screen during an install?
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:10 AM   #187
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Pantaz View Post
I agree. Having shown Win8 (on a desktop PC) to several "average users" (non-techies), they universally express immediate dislike. Now, this doesn't mean they will not be able to use it, or even have excessive difficulty in learning. It does, in my opinion, demonstrate that some/many people will have difficulty simply because the look & feel is so far removed from what they have come to know over years of experience.
How is it "so far removed"? The start menu looks different is the only real difference on a desktop.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:25 AM   #188
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
In short, there are, in fact, ways to screw up an operating system UI, that are objectively bad.
A classic example of the plural of anecdotes being "data". I doubt you'll find any interface where 100% of people like it and find it more productive. Granted, you might find some where 0% like it, but it's still subjective.

I however am 100% certain if you took a cohort of people who had never used a computer and introduced them to Windows 8 in a experimenter blinded setting that the vast majority would be just fine with it.

Quote:
For example, there are very specific reasons why the full-screen Start Screen is a bad idea for desktops. One of them is loss of context, the so-called "refrigerator effect". YOU were the one who dismissed this as simply not important.
It's a ridiculous objection unless your designing an interface for people with Alzheimers. The "refrigerator effect" you refer to occurs because you're having a massive change in context (eg going from the office to the kitchen) and having the opportunity to think about other topics. To equate that with the millisecond it takes to go from an app to the start screen is absurd. You're seriously grasping at straws with this one.

Quote:
Each and every one of my claims is backed up with independently verifiable evidence. They might not be so important to some people, such as yourself. But, they are NOT bogus.
Independently verifiable opinions you mean.

Quote:
But, that does NOT mean the inconsistencies are not there. No other OS has them.
Every OS has inconsistencies.

Quote:
I can also demonstrate, in that same hypothetical court of law, that the Modern UI presents unique control issues. If I scroll horizontally, the pointer will sometimes catch a vertical box, and scroll that instead, in a vertical manner.
What? How does it "catch a vertical box"? (1) The pointer isn't even being used when scrolling. (2) Admittedly I rarely use Modern UI apps - since I don't have a touch screen - but I've never even encountered any "vertical scrolling"
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 10:41 AM   #189
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,283
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Not entirely there fault. I downloaded upgrades to two systems and downloaded a fresh install for another and Microsoft at no time (that I saw) provided an FM or link to one. There clearly should have been a "welcome to windows 8" type of app with the differences. During the install itself there were a few tips, but who sits staring at the screen during an install?
Probably only the same people who are willing to sit and watch paint dry.

Maybe the Windows 8 overview in the manual is a more recent development then? I can't tell when my version of the manual (the part that is on my hard drive, not MS web site) was written, but my machine was built as recently as Oct 30, 2012.

I haven't finished reading the intro yet, but so far it has included two short videos which I thought was a nice touch and helped break up the presentation of the new info and made it a little less boring to go through.

Last edited by Kaylee; 3rd January 2013 at 10:48 AM.
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 10:47 AM   #190
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
A classic example of the plural of anecdotes being "data". I doubt you'll find any interface where 100% of people like it and find it more productive. Granted, you might find some where 0% like it, but it's still subjective.
If you wish to ignore the existence of the entire science of UI design, then I guess this debate is going to be futile.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I however am 100% certain if you took a cohort of people who had never used a computer and introduced them to Windows 8 in a experimenter blinded setting that the vast majority would be just fine with it.
I am 100% certain that if you took a bunch of people who had never seen nor used an automobile before, and showed them one where the ignition was inside the trunk: (They would have to open the trunk to turn on the engine, then move back into the driver seat to actually drive it; then go back into the trunk to shut the engine off), I am sure they would be just fine with it.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It's a ridiculous objection unless your designing an interface for people with Alzheimers.
It is not about that. A world-class interface would be designed to be psychologically practical, in general.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Independently verifiable opinions you mean.
The lack of visual cues for where to get things is a FACT. Not an opinion. A FACT.
The lack of persistent clock is a FACT. Not an opinion. A FACT.
The full screen nature of the Start Screen is a FACT. Not an opinion. A FACT.
Etc. Etc.

Everything I am writing about has a basis in FACTS. Anyone who uses the OS can see them.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Every OS has inconsistencies.
Windows has them in stupid places. There is no reason, for example, for the Settings search results page to start empty, when the Applications page does not. It is not merely inconsistent, but detracts a little from usability.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
What? How does it "catch a vertical box"? (1) The pointer isn't even being used when scrolling. (2) Admittedly I rarely use Modern UI apps - since I don't have a touch screen - but I've never even encountered any "vertical scrolling"
Some Modern UI apps, such as the Finance one, have sections of boxes that scroll vertically, even though the app's interface scrolls horizontally in general. If you are using the mouse wheel to scroll the app horizontally, the pointer could land in one of the vertical sections. When it does so, the section will scroll vertically, instead of continuing the horizontal scrolling of the parent container.

Finance app is not the only one. This is a general problem with any Modern UI apps. that will have vertical scroll boxes in them.
Sometimes a web page that scrolls horizontally (which is rare) will have the same sorts of problems (which is one reason why they are rare).

It's just a misc. example of how usability was not thought through very well. Other OSes, such as iOS/MacOS, handle this more elegantly.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 11:27 AM   #191
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
The lack of visual cues for where to get things is a FACT. Not an opinion. A FACT.
Whether that's an issue is an OPINION, not a FACT
Quote:
The lack of persistent clock is a FACT. Not an opinion. A FACT.
Whether that's an issue is an OPINION, not a FACT
Quote:
The full screen nature of the Start Screen is a FACT. Not an opinion. A FACT.
Whether that's an issue is an OPINION, not a FACT
Quote:
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Quote:
Everything I am writing about has a basis in FACTS. Anyone who uses the OS can see them.
Yeah, and you see them and say BAD and I see the same thing and say GOOD.

Opinion.

Quote:
Windows has them in stupid places. There is no reason, for example, for the Settings search results page to start empty, when the Applications page does not. It is not merely inconsistent, but detracts a little from usability.
The fact you have to pick such obscure issues that in many months of using the OS I've either never noticed or never encountered supports my thesis not yours.

Quote:
Some Modern UI apps, such as the Finance one, have sections of boxes that scroll vertically, even though the app's interface scrolls horizontally in general.
This is apparently yet another obscure issue. I've been searching all through the Finance app and cannot find this problem. Can you be more specific or give another example?
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 11:38 AM   #192
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
Probably only the same people who are willing to sit and watch paint dry.

Maybe the Windows 8 overview in the manual is a more recent development then? I can't tell when my version of the manual (the part that is on my hard drive, not MS web site) was written, but my machine was built as recently as Oct 30, 2012.

I haven't finished reading the intro yet, but so far it has included two short videos which I thought was a nice touch and helped break up the presentation of the new info and made it a little less boring to go through.
Mine was a download, so no physical manual. I just clicked the win-key and typed help and found one though

Browsing through it I don't think it's well written for the person moving from windows 7 to windows 8 on a desktop. Indeed I think it will lead to many of the misconceptions about the OS I've seen.

I'm wondering if there was too much integration between the Windows 8 team and the Surface team at MS? So much of the marketing, and this help file, seems to be perfect for people using a Surface.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 12:31 PM   #193
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Whether that's an issue is an OPINION, not a FACT
A case can be made that the OS is worse off, from a UI design perspective, because of it. (For any of the examples I am giving.)

Not everyone cares. But, then again, not everyone needs to.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yeah, and you see them and say BAD and I see the same thing and say GOOD.

Opinion.
A case can be made that the OS could have been more adaptable so those who might see them as BAD would be able to fall back on the what they think of as GOOD.

It is NOT that difficult to do. StarDock largely did it for them, in fact.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The fact you have to pick such obscure issues that in many months of using the OS I've either never noticed or never encountered supports my thesis not yours.
I already covered the major issues. I don't feel like repeating myself. If I have to say "the start button is not on the screen" all the time, I will feel like I am talking to babies, and you don't deserve that.

So, I spinkle in other misc. (obscure) things. I don't HAVE to do it. But, there is no shortage of them. So, I might as well be a little comprehensive.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
This is apparently yet another obscure issue. I've been searching all through the Finance app and cannot find this problem. Can you be more specific or give another example?
I will come up with steps to recreate the issue, in either Finance, or something else, tonight.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 03:10 PM   #194
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,355
There is no good reason Microsoft had to eliminate windowed mode from metro mode. It's all about screwing with control and convenience. Frankly its a step back in UI design. They should have upgraded windows 7 and provided metro mode as an optional skin so that those with wp7/8 and surface tablets can feel integrated.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 04:21 PM   #195
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
This is apparently yet another obscure issue. I've been searching all through the Finance app and cannot find this problem. Can you be more specific or give another example?
It appears as though tehe Weather app is a better demonstration of this. The Hourly Forcast section will interrupt your horizontal scrolling, should your mousr pointer land in it.

The Finance app doesn't have a vertical scroll window anymore, at least not by default. Sorry about that.


Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
There is no good reason Microsoft had to eliminate windowed mode from metro mode. It's all about screwing with control and convenience. Frankly its a step back in UI design. They should have upgraded windows 7 and provided metro mode as an optional skin so that those with wp7/8 and surface tablets can feel integrated.
There were a small number of Windows 7 based tablets that did that, with 3rd party layers over them. But, they were very expensive.

The Microsoft Store had some models on display right before Windows 8 launched. They were waaaay easier to use! And, as a bonus, the icons looked nice and colorful, too!

With all of Microsoft's mighty power, they couldn't even improve upon something a 3rd party did last year! No, they had to go rip everything out and start over with something radical and slapped together in a bit of a hurry.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 04:27 PM   #196
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
There is no good reason Microsoft had to eliminate windowed mode from metro mode. It's all about screwing with control and convenience. Frankly its a step back in UI design. They should have upgraded windows 7 and provided metro mode as an optional skin so that those with wp7/8 and surface tablets can feel integrated.

I'm still not clear on exactly what has been eliminated. Aside from floating my cursor over the metro screen thumbnail to right click for the menu that gets me to just about anywhere I could want to go, including the good ol' Desktop I hardly ever even see the evil metro screen. Every once in awhile I use it as a shortcut to a few apps I've moved over to its leading edge. Very, very rarely.

I had to right click on the taskbar in XP to get to the desktop, too. The difference just doesn't seem to be that radical to me.

I haven't really bothered to RTFM very much. Most of the time that something I want to do isn't obvious it doesn't require much digging, and I learn other stuff while I'm doing it.

I don't expect every detail of a new OS to fall in my lap. So far the learning curve for changing over hasn't proven to be particularly onerous for me, and all in all it doesn't seem noticeable more or less difficult to use.

Like I mentioned earlier, changing from DOS to Windows presented far more of a challenge for me, an experience I postponed as long as I could, and I managed to get through that somehow. (Although perhaps not gracefully. )
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:24 PM   #197
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,283
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm still not clear on exactly what has been eliminated. Aside from floating my cursor over the metro screen thumbnail to right click for the menu that gets me to just about anywhere I could want to go, including the good ol' Desktop I hardly ever even see the evil metro screen. Every once in awhile I use it as a shortcut to a few apps I've moved over to its leading edge. Very, very rarely.

I had to right click on the taskbar in XP to get to the desktop, too. The difference just doesn't seem to be that radical to me.

I haven't really bothered to RTFM very much.
Heh. As someone who is RTFM here and there as I have time, thanks for making me feel dumb!

Quote:
Most of the time that something I want to do isn't obvious it doesn't require much digging, and I learn other stuff while I'm doing it.

I don't expect every detail of a new OS to fall in my lap. So far the learning curve for changing over hasn't proven to be particularly onerous for me, and all in all it doesn't seem noticeable more or less difficult to use.

Like I mentioned earlier, changing from DOS to Windows presented far more of a challenge for me, an experience I postponed as long as I could, and I managed to get through that somehow. (Although perhaps not gracefully. )
In hindsight, I think my biggest stumbling block to adjusting to Win 8 was that I didn't realize that the laptop manufacturer (Lenovo) had set up the touchpad to emulate a touchscreen by default.

I kept jumping in and out of applications and screens, seemingly at whim. It took me awhile to understand why. And not all of the adjustments I had to make for the touchpad were obvious to me and I've been a happy user of touchpads, on most of my laptops, for at least 9 years.

I had finally just got the touchpad to exactly where I like it and have no complaints, and my new computer mouse, which I really no longer need, is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. Good timing!

FWIW, I think the typical laptop touchpad is too small to try to emulate a touch screen. I also think its another example of how MS was apparently gung hu on making its OS user interface as similar as possible on all devices ... even when it doesn't make sense.

But if someone gave me a surface or another tablet with Win 8 on it, I probably would know exactly what to do even though my current laptop doesn't have a touch screen. So ... multiple my experience by a few million other people and my guess is that MS goals were satisfied.


ETA: Oh and quadraginta, I did find out how to get to the metro interface version of the taskbar. Muchas gracias! It is pretty similar, the main difference is that the metro interface regards the desktop as "one application", regardless of how many desktop applications are open. Not a plus IMHO, but not MS worse sin either (also IMHO).

Last edited by Kaylee; 3rd January 2013 at 05:37 PM.
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:47 PM   #198
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,283
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Mine was a download, so no physical manual. I just clicked the win-key and typed help and found one though

Browsing through it I don't think it's well written for the person moving from windows 7 to windows 8 on a desktop. Indeed I think it will lead to many of the misconceptions about the OS I've seen.

I'm wondering if there was too much integration between the Windows 8 team and the Surface team at MS? So much of the marketing, and this help file, seems to be perfect for people using a Surface.


I'll have to get back to you on that, I've only read a little bit of it so far.

It wouldn't surprise me if we are looking at different versions. MS may not only have decided to revise the manual in general based on consumer response but it's also been my experience with other products that sometimes manuals differ based on which country they are written for. So, even if you are reading an English one, if you are reading one written for the UK it might focus on different information that one written for the US market.

I have used Google to translate other countries' manuals to get the technical info I needed -- it was amazing to me how different the manuals were ... for the same product.

Last edited by Kaylee; 3rd January 2013 at 05:57 PM.
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 06:03 PM   #199
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I already covered the major issues. I don't feel like repeating myself. If I have to say "the start button is not on the screen" all the time, I will feel like I am talking to babies, and you don't deserve that.
In my opinion you're treating people like babies in this view, that people need to have the start button there or they'll mysteriously forget how to get to the start screen, and even if they remember how to get to the start screen once they're there, they'll forget why they went there.

Quote:
It appears as though tehe Weather app is a better demonstration of this. The Hourly Forcast section will interrupt your horizontal scrolling, should your mousr pointer land in it.
It pauses over the hourly forecast, which indeed doesn't look or "feel" the best and needs tweaking, but it doesn't grab it and start vertical scrolling unless you click on it first. An update came through on the weather app recently, maybe that's changed?

Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
In hindsight, I think my biggest stumbling block to adjusting to Win 8 was that I didn't realize that the laptop manufacturer (Lenovo) had set up the touchpad to emulate a touchscreen by default.
Ahh! So not just ASUS. This may be a common thing then. And yes, it causes all sorts of problems and has explained to me a lot of people's complaints-
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 06:35 PM   #200
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
<snip>

Ahh! So not just ASUS. This may be a common thing then. And yes, it causes all sorts of problems and has explained to me a lot of people's complaints-

My new HP, too.

I had a heads up since I saw it mentioned in some of the reviews I read. It only duplicates some of the gesture commands, like zoom and pan.

I ain't givin' up my mouse 'til they pry it out of my cold, dead hands, but that's because it's a wireless Trackman. I can sit it on my leg, lean back in the couch, and move around the screen at leisure, 'til I need to type something.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:48 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.