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3rd January 2013, 06:48 PM | #201 |
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Do you think Android treats its users like babies?
Do you think Ubuntu Linux treats its users like babies? Do you think iOS treats its users like babies...okay that might be a bad example, actually.... Do you think Windows 7 treated its users like babies? Do you think it just might be possible to design an OS that can be world class operational on every platform it is expected to be installed onto, without necessarily treating its users like babies?! |
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3rd January 2013, 07:12 PM | #202 |
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Did you even read what I wrote? It's you that are treating users like babies and complaining that Microsoft is not because they think people can actually remember what they're doing for a millisecond, and won't forget where the start icon is just because it's not shown all the time.
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3rd January 2013, 07:26 PM | #203 |
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My argument is NOT "people need things on screen. people need context when using the start menu".
My argument is: "the operating system ought to have more cues on screen, and preserve context when using the start menu". My arguments are about OS UI design, taking factors such as practical psychology into account. Not about how well or not people can handle it or need it. I already said a whole bunch of times "people can get used to it". I know most people are smart enough to do so. My point is all about how they wouldn't need to, and that there barely (if any) reason to bother. If anything, Windows 8 treats people like babies: It insists on showing you very few things at once, so as not to frighten or confuse you. And, with large icons, so your stubby fingers have a larger area to make contact with. |
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3rd January 2013, 07:55 PM | #204 |
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Which is based on the assumption that users are idiots and will forget where these things are.
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3rd January 2013, 09:03 PM | #205 |
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Do you think Windows 7 treats people like babies or not?
If not, then I clearly wouldn't be asking for people to be treated like babies for suggesting they remain on Windows 7. If so, then why do you think soooo many non-babies: Techies, power-users, developers, etc. alike never seemed to complain about that? But, a lot of them like to complain about Windows 8, instead? First of all, context for specific tasks is typically not the same every day, for every moment the Start screen is called out. Second of all: It is already a known issue with mobile devices: People DO sometimes forget why they called up one app, while using another, since everything tends to be full screen. Even normal people. What makes you assume this means it won't happen in Windows 8, with the full-screen Start screen?! Third of all: What if someone who wasn't trained in the art of getting used to Windows 8 needs to borrow the device? An OS should be intuitive enough to navigate around for the uninitiated. The "people don't forget how to use things" argument doesn't apply if they weren't trained on it in the first place. Fourth of all: Don't you think it's wise, from a pragmatic perspective, not to take chances? Even if only a small percentage of users had serious issues with context amnesia, shouldn't the OS be designed not to abandon them? ESPECIALLY since the solution for doing so is practically cost-free, and already worked really well in the previous version? (It actually cost Microsoft MORE time and effort to remove the old Start Menu and button, since they had to spend time making up for it in other ways, especially on the Server. It would have been easier and cheaper, and better for everyone, if they just kept the thing in there for a while longer. At least for desktop PC installs.) On a tablet, sure, you can free up the screen space. But, on a larger desktop computer monitor? It actually becomes more of an imperative to fill all that space effectively! (WARNING: The next response is purely superficial, and therefore not quite as important as the other issues discussed above. I only address it for the amusement of doing so.) It's not just icon size, but the bland one-colorness of them. White symbol on solid color background. For all of them. Looks like baby blocks to me. While we are on the subject: Yeah Android is not perfect in its display of programs, either. One thing that always puzzled me is: Why must application names get cut off on the home screens? I have "Documents ToGo", which only says "Documents" with a slightly faded "s" at the end. All of my Angry Birds games are simply called "Angry Birds", with their sub-titles cut off. Windows 8 might not always put text labels on their program icons (don't get me started on that one), but when they do, at least it is the full name. Not some truncated lettering. But, at least Android doesn't induce as much headscratching for me, on average. So, I'm keeping it as my phone OS, in spite of its few foibles. |
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3rd January 2013, 09:11 PM | #206 |
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My laptop has the Elan Smart-Pad. Theoretically, it has a lot of options as you can see in the chart here:
http://www.emc.com.tw/eng/tpn_sp_prod.asp It also has a one-finger tap option which emulates a mouse left click. It wasn't working consistently* for me however so I disabled most of the features. The only ones I left on are the horizontal and vertical scrolls at the edge of the pad. The one-finger tap and window switching were especially driving me nuts. And on my particular laptop model there is no way to know, by touch only, when you are at the edge of the touch pad, so it was esp. easy to switch windows without intending to, if that option was enabled.
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* Well, more likely, being human I wasn't applying pressure to the pad consistently ... but I'm not about to change my species. |
4th January 2013, 11:31 AM | #207 |
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4th January 2013, 02:24 PM | #208 |
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Since my attempt at running virtusalization and the Win 8 trial failed, as the upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8 is just £25 I'm tempted to possibly try the upgrade to see what it's like, but I need a "get out" short of reinstalling Win 7 completely.
Is there an easy downgrade process from Win 8 if you really don't like it? I had read it wasn't possible but things may have changed. |
4th January 2013, 02:39 PM | #209 |
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You might have to enable a "No Execute Bit" through your machine's BIOS/EFI/whatever... even if it is running in a virtual machine.
I had to do that, myself, before running Win8 on VMPlayer. I don't think there is a downgrade process. But, one thing you can try, if you have 2 hard drives or partitions, is dual-booting. When the machine starts up, you can select which OS to boot from. -Mitch |
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4th January 2013, 02:42 PM | #210 |
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4th January 2013, 02:55 PM | #211 |
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4th January 2013, 04:26 PM | #212 |
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Yeah dual boot is a possibility, if I could find a simple partitioning prog for my existing hard disk. Could I dual boot from an external USb3 disk at least just to try it out for a session? Probably not.
I tried Virtual Box for the trial but keep getting a reboot to continue loop if I recall. |
4th January 2013, 05:38 PM | #213 |
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4th January 2013, 05:40 PM | #214 |
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I've never had a problem adapting to a new version of windows dating back to Win286. Until Win8. Unmitigated disaster are the first words that come to mind.
Although if you saw me bumble for a year and a day writing this post on an infernal ipad, you'd take my opinion with multiple grains of salt. |
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4th January 2013, 05:58 PM | #215 |
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Well, one thing you can do is have the Modern UI Music App playing on one of the sides of the screen, while using another App in the rest of the screen.
But, you can only run one App in the side at a time. So, if there is anything else you want to have on screen, you need to make a choice. Plus, the Metro app goes away whenever the Start Screen is showing, or when the screen is locked. So, it's not as persistent as what you might find in other OSes. Or, alternatively, as ShadowSot pointed out, you can use the older, standard desktop Media Player application. That runs like it used to. But, you might not have it on some devices. There are additional problems: Some people are noting that, depending on hardware, the Music app will break up the sound of the song whenever the system is doing any background processing. This includes screen locking. So, if you play long song, and your screen goes blank, you can expect a slight pause in the music while the screen shuts off. This is similar to the problems an earlier version of Windows Media Player, version 6 I believe, had with CD audio music. But, that was corrected until around the time Media Player 8 or 9 was introduced. Sound performance doesn't seem to be much a priority with the company. |
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4th January 2013, 06:05 PM | #216 |
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4th January 2013, 07:03 PM | #217 |
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4th January 2013, 09:36 PM | #218 |
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Ok I have got it installed via Virtual box. I had to enable intel virtualization in the BIOS.
First impression. Not impressed. Actually quite frustrating. I am now into the desktop but since there is no start etc at lower left I don't know without ggoling etc how to bring up the program menus or are they gone without third party software? And why isn't there an intuitive mouse action to get back to the Modern interface without using the Windows key? Or is there? The charms bar currently provides little of use and won't open in my version by mouse action to the right side as it should ( I had to google how it's supposed to work ) but only with the Win + C keys. Click on an "app" panel and it opens to fill the entire screen, with a "preview" that does nothing , No mouse action to get out of it - only Win key. Why isn't there, like previous versions, some kind of new user friendly intro to the changes / what's new in Win 8 so we don't have to flail around trying to find our way around? Very unintuitive. It's 4.30am here and I am going to bed and will look try again but I do not like what i have found so far. |
4th January 2013, 10:48 PM | #219 |
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5th January 2013, 02:37 AM | #220 |
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Icerat and Wowbagger, what line of work are you guys in? Do either of you have actual experience in the field of software development?
The reason I'm asking is because throughout this thread, Wowbagger has been presenting his critiques of Windows 8 much in the manner of a user experience (UX) designer, whereas Icerat has been essentially arguing that most of Wowbagger's points are invalid because the usability of Windows 8 is a matter of subjective preference and people will adapt to it. Well, contrary to what many people may think, "usability" is not merely a matter of personal preference; there really are objective rules governing the design of user interfaces, at least from a usability perspective. Some design approaches are indeed objectively better than others, in terms of efficiency and ease of use. Good user-centric design is actually based on a science of sorts. The usability of a given interface design can be objectively determined through laboratory testing. Usability tests involve human subjects: users with average skills of the target user base, but who've had no prior experience with the new interface being tested. The test subjects are usually evaluated in groups of 5 or more. They're seated in front of computers running the software to be tested, and given specific objectives to perform via the interface. During the execution of those assigned tasks, they're observed, timed, and monitored. Performance is judged by standardized metrics such as the time and/or number of clicks required to complete an action, time spent consulting reference materials or asking for assistance, number of errors made, etc.; the users' opinions and other feedback are usually polled at the end of the test also. When a new version of a software package is being tested, A/B tests are frequently used to compare performance and UX between the new version and the old. Examination of usability test results has consistently shown that beyond personal preference, certain UI design approaches are objectively better than others. Now of course none of Microsoft's usability testing results are available to the public, but plenty of independent UX professionals have evaluated Windows 8 and offered critiques. What do you think the prevailing opinion has been? |
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5th January 2013, 04:28 AM | #221 |
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5th January 2013, 04:30 AM | #222 |
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5th January 2013, 04:40 AM | #223 |
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I like the idea behind the new user interface. We are not too far from the time when a mobile phone will be ready to replace a full desktop PC. It will be connected to a keyboard, a monitor and something like a USB hub for home use, and it will function as a smartphone when on the move.
However it looks like the implementation of the idea by Windows 8 is horrible. The chances I will be upgrading from Windows 7 are slim, especially since I consider Windows 7 to be less user-friendly than XP already. |
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5th January 2013, 04:46 AM | #224 |
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5th January 2013, 05:38 AM | #225 |
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That's an interesting search. The first page and a half or so of hits are all articles giving the impression that experts have panned Win8. Further reading of those articles reveal that that all the experts are Jacob Nielsen, who runs his own independent usability testing business, and they all reference one article he wrote. His testing involved "twelve experienced PC users". I wonder how many MS tested? After that page and a half or so of hits you finally get to one which points out that Jacob Nielsen also panned the iPad when it first came out, and for many of the same reasons. That was based on seven users' experiences. Obviously he knows his stuff, since the iPad was such a dismal failure. |
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5th January 2013, 06:32 AM | #226 |
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Well if it were a full install/upgrade I might do a lot of things to customize but this is my first ever virtualized OS and I don't really want to hack the registry or install third party progs - I want to come to Win 8
naked, as it were, just as most new users would. I want to see what all the fuss and criticism are about and whether I feel it's justified. I'm genuinely trying to be fair to what MS actually deliver. I do think the Modern (Metro) interface already looks rather dated or soon will. Some users are keyboard orientated (often older perhaps who used DOS and early Wordperfect etc ) , some mouse centred. As I've said so far I do not like the way some actions do not seem to have both mouse and KB alternatives. Perhaps there is a mouse gesture equivalent of a finger/hand motion on a pad , in Win8 . But is not made apparent to myself as a new user on a conventional PC. There was a bottom scroll bar on the Modern UI for me, new, a bit ugly , but it's clear what action would reveal more based on previous Win versions so I wasn't too bothered. At least I knew what to do next there. I will try another run later. - |
5th January 2013, 06:42 AM | #227 |
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Not very far at all. I can already do all of those things you mention with my Note 2. Not a "replacement", so much. I still prefer my laptop for many things, but it's surprising how often I find myself reaching for the phone instead. There's a whole lot of redundancy between my phone, tablet, and laptop now. If I had to choose just one, the phone could already provide most if not all of my personal computer needs. |
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5th January 2013, 07:27 AM | #228 |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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5th January 2013, 07:28 AM | #229 |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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5th January 2013, 07:49 AM | #230 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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5th January 2013, 07:55 AM | #231 |
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Yes, I do. I've owned (and sold) several successful internet companies and now working on a number of new startups.
I prescribe to the view that, in general, "an intuitive interface is whatever you're used to." Take Windows 8 and Windows 8 phone. Yesterday we received one of the latter. The menu interface is different, leaving behind the "page" approach instead extending screens way beyond the visible portion. My non-techie wife has had zero problem using it. Why? Because she's already become used to swiping on other phones and tablets. Extended screens visible through swiping is intuitive for her because she's already used to swiping. 5 years ago turning a page was "intuitive", because we're used to doing it. Now most people are used to swiping.
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Yes, there's valuable insights and useful information as well, but really it does come to "whatever you're used to".
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As I noted above, no OS is perfect, and Windows 8, just like every other OS certainly has it's inconsistencies and issues. Wowbaggers critiques are little more than pedantic nitpicking, and in some cases just plain silly. |
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5th January 2013, 08:37 AM | #232 |
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Most of them work just fine on a desktop as well, I use several myself, but I agree this is one area where MS dropped the ball in their design - they're promoting the use of these apps no matter what your hardware setup. The "store" for example is entirely these types of apps.
If you're using a mouse and keyboard and nothing else most of them are less functional (and usable) than their "desktop" equivalents. |
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5th January 2013, 10:39 AM | #233 |
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5th January 2013, 11:30 AM | #234 |
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ahhhh .... I see skype now has a "windows 8" version on their own website now and getting in on the confusion.
Just install the Windows Desktop version. |
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5th January 2013, 01:13 PM | #235 |
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My Internet connection is problematic this weekend, so I won't be able to post much until Monday or so, after this one. Just know that my lack of responses does NOT mean I am giving up the arguments.
Yes, I have been a professional software developer my entire adult life, predominantly on the Windows platform. Though, nowadays I mostly work with ASP.NET. I have been "loyal" to Windows since version 3.1. I even upgraded my own machine to Windows Me and Windows Vista, when they were new, without much hesitation, and managed to live through their weaknesses just fine. Though, sometimes my recommendations to others were on the lukewarm side. I have dabbled in other desktop operating systems, too: Various variations of Linux (RedHat, Suse, Ubuntu), MacOs, and OS/2 Warp (remember that?), to name a few. And, though each has their quirks, I have never felt at a loss of where to go to get anywhere or do anything. I have had no issues getting around Android, my mobile OS of choice. Windows 8 is the first time I felt like the OS was unusable, as first installed. You really need to do a LOT of customizations, and install Start8, before it feels like you are "at home" with it. This is the first version of Windows where I am actively telling people to stay away from it, if you can! As a software developer, I can empathize with some of the reasoning behind the Modern UI. For example, there are some genuine advantages to having stateless apps, even if people have to get used to the lack of Close buttons, and sometimes even Save buttons, etc. But, that is no excuse to botch the actual usability of UI they have to work in. Even though I have an MSDN Premium subscription, which (among other things) grants me the right to install Windows 8 on up to 5 machines (it used to be 10), for testing, evaluation, and development purposes, I am keeping it relegated to a single Virtual Machine, for now. It happens that my current Windows 7 based Tablet PC is becoming a bit of a dinosaur, and I will be itching to replace it this year. So, that means my new machine will likely have Windows 8 preinstalled on it... Sigh... At least we have Start8 around to make things right. Well, it kinda makes sense on a device with a small screen, at least. Though, even that argument hasn't stopped others from making windowing available in some other tablet OSes, such as variations of Android and Linux. (If the Linux variation available for the Motorola Razr docking stations wasn't so damn limited in other respects, it would be an AMAZING portable OS. At least it proves windowing CAN work well on a small screen.) And, for big screens: Yeah, no particular reason. They just messed up on that one. If you have multiple monitors, you have even bigger issues: All those features that require you to swipe from the top or sides won't work unless your mouse pointer is very precisely positioned at the right pixel row or column, when you begin the swipe. This is a very naïve and overly simplistic attitude. There are, in fact, many innate aspects of human nature that one should take into account when designing a UI, many of which had to be learned the HARD WAY, over the many decades computers have been in existence. Granted, there is variation to be had, sometimes, based on cultural norms: For example, some languages and cultures are more prone to like horizontal text scrolling better than vertical, even though vertical considered the norm for most of the so-called Western World. But, even after those are taken into account, there are still plenty of universals, or near-universals, one must consider. For example, it is generally a bad idea to present people with a blank screen when results are available for a search query. Even if you can train people to click on something else after they click Search to actually find where the results are, it still goes against general innate expectations. However, let us pretend for argument sake, that you are right, for just a moment: That an intuitive interface really is "whatever you are used to", and nothing more: It happens that people are used to having a Start button and small Start Menu on their desktop at all times, when using Windows. That means: By your own argument, Windows 8 is a bad UI. It is not, in fact, what people are used to using. From what I understand, the head of Windows development, Steven Sinofsky, was cheerleading the removal of the Start button, against the recommendations of many others on the team. And, he was let go shortly after Windows 8 was released. That does not tell us anything about Microsoft's usability test results. But, it does demonstrate a complete lack of care for such things while it was in development. Right. Because showing people a blank screen when search results are found is not, at all, silly. |
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5th January 2013, 01:36 PM | #236 |
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5th January 2013, 02:31 PM | #238 |
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To be honest, in my limited experience of it , no. this is my first ever use of a virtualization prog. I am running WIn 8 in a smaller window within virtual box. It never fills the screen because there is a border so I am losing some screen real estate but have jsut enough to try it. It may have to do with some graphics settings or something but I think it would be much better if you could dual boot. I did see if that was possible but I don't have any unallocated space on my PC HD so I think creating a partition without reformatting etc might not be easy for me unless someone has any suggestions.
But virtual box is free so you could try it to see if it's any use. I only found it via an article about installing the Win 8 consumer preview. |
5th January 2013, 03:15 PM | #239 |
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I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns! |
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5th January 2013, 03:19 PM | #240 |
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,395
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So supposing you don't want your Modern start page cluttered up with all those redundant tiles/shortcuts to apps. How'd you go about deleting some of them? According to my virtual Programs add/remove programs panel I have no programs installed so the apps aren't listed there.
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