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Old 3rd January 2013, 06:48 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
In my opinion you're treating people like babies in this view, that people need to have the start button there or they'll mysteriously forget how to get to the start screen, and even if they remember how to get to the start screen once they're there, they'll forget why they went there.
Do you think Android treats its users like babies?

Do you think Ubuntu Linux treats its users like babies?

Do you think iOS treats its users like babies...okay that might be a bad example, actually....

Do you think Windows 7 treated its users like babies?

Do you think it just might be possible to design an OS that can be world class operational on every platform it is expected to be installed onto, without necessarily treating its users like babies?!
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Old 3rd January 2013, 07:12 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Do you think Android treats its users like babies?

Do you think Ubuntu Linux treats its users like babies?

Do you think iOS treats its users like babies...okay that might be a bad example, actually....

Do you think Windows 7 treated its users like babies?

Do you think it just might be possible to design an OS that can be world class operational on every platform it is expected to be installed onto, without necessarily treating its users like babies?!
Did you even read what I wrote? It's you that are treating users like babies and complaining that Microsoft is not because they think people can actually remember what they're doing for a millisecond, and won't forget where the start icon is just because it's not shown all the time.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 07:26 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Did you even read what I wrote? It's you that are treating users like babies and complaining that Microsoft is not because they think people can actually remember what they're doing for a millisecond, and won't forget where the start icon is just because it's not shown all the time.
My argument is NOT "people need things on screen. people need context when using the start menu".

My argument is: "the operating system ought to have more cues on screen, and preserve context when using the start menu".

My arguments are about OS UI design, taking factors such as practical psychology into account. Not about how well or not people can handle it or need it.

I already said a whole bunch of times "people can get used to it". I know most people are smart enough to do so.
My point is all about how they wouldn't need to, and that there barely (if any) reason to bother.

If anything, Windows 8 treats people like babies: It insists on showing you very few things at once, so as not to frighten or confuse you. And, with large icons, so your stubby fingers have a larger area to make contact with.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 07:55 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
My argument is NOT "people need things on screen. people need context when using the start menu".

My argument is: "the operating system ought to have more cues on screen, and preserve context when using the start menu".
Which is based on the assumption that users are idiots and will forget where these things are.

Quote:
My arguments are about OS UI design, taking factors such as practical psychology into account. Not about how well or not people can handle it or need it.
Oh good grief. I've got a double degree in psychology, and while it was a while ago, I did study human factors in design. Trust me, people don't forget where something is when they use it virtually every day. If this was a one off custom OS in a kiosk in a tourist park or something, then sure, you need the context. In a daily use OS you don't, so you can free up the screen space.

Quote:
If anything, Windows 8 treats people like babies: It insists on showing you very few things at once, so as not to frighten or confuse you. And, with large icons, so your stubby fingers have a larger area to make contact with.
Back to the baby blocks obsession again. You do realise that the difference in size between windows tiles and android icons is primarily a result of the fact windows uses the space between tiles that android leaves blank?Indeed, scaling down the icons on my Windows 8 desktop start screen to the size of Samsung Note 10.1, the Windows 8 icons are smaller than the android icons. Comparing to my Android HTC Wildfire phone, the Windows 8 tiles are, relative to screen size, even smaller again.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:03 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Which is based on the assumption that users are idiots and will forget where these things are.
Do you think Windows 7 treats people like babies or not?

If not, then I clearly wouldn't be asking for people to be treated like babies for suggesting they remain on Windows 7.

If so, then why do you think soooo many non-babies: Techies, power-users, developers, etc. alike never seemed to complain about that? But, a lot of them like to complain about Windows 8, instead?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Trust me, people don't forget where something is when they use it virtually every day.
First of all, context for specific tasks is typically not the same every day, for every moment the Start screen is called out.

Second of all: It is already a known issue with mobile devices: People DO sometimes forget why they called up one app, while using another, since everything tends to be full screen. Even normal people. What makes you assume this means it won't happen in Windows 8, with the full-screen Start screen?!

Third of all: What if someone who wasn't trained in the art of getting used to Windows 8 needs to borrow the device? An OS should be intuitive enough to navigate around for the uninitiated. The "people don't forget how to use things" argument doesn't apply if they weren't trained on it in the first place.

Fourth of all: Don't you think it's wise, from a pragmatic perspective, not to take chances? Even if only a small percentage of users had serious issues with context amnesia, shouldn't the OS be designed not to abandon them? ESPECIALLY since the solution for doing so is practically cost-free, and already worked really well in the previous version?

(It actually cost Microsoft MORE time and effort to remove the old Start Menu and button, since they had to spend time making up for it in other ways, especially on the Server. It would have been easier and cheaper, and better for everyone, if they just kept the thing in there for a while longer. At least for desktop PC installs.)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
If this was a one off custom OS in a kiosk in a tourist park or something, then sure, you need the context. In a daily use OS you don't, so you can free up the screen space.
On a tablet, sure, you can free up the screen space.

But, on a larger desktop computer monitor? It actually becomes more of an imperative to fill all that space effectively!

(WARNING: The next response is purely superficial, and therefore not quite as important as the other issues discussed above. I only address it for the amusement of doing so.)
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Back to the baby blocks obsession again.
(snip)
Comparing to my Android HTC Wildfire phone, the Windows 8 tiles are, relative to screen size, even smaller again.
It's not just icon size, but the bland one-colorness of them. White symbol on solid color background. For all of them. Looks like baby blocks to me.

While we are on the subject: Yeah Android is not perfect in its display of programs, either. One thing that always puzzled me is: Why must application names get cut off on the home screens? I have "Documents ToGo", which only says "Documents" with a slightly faded "s" at the end. All of my Angry Birds games are simply called "Angry Birds", with their sub-titles cut off.

Windows 8 might not always put text labels on their program icons (don't get me started on that one), but when they do, at least it is the full name. Not some truncated lettering.

But, at least Android doesn't induce as much headscratching for me, on average. So, I'm keeping it as my phone OS, in spite of its few foibles.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:11 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
My new HP, too.

I had a heads up since I saw it mentioned in some of the reviews I read. It only duplicates some of the gesture commands, like zoom and pan.
My laptop has the Elan Smart-Pad. Theoretically, it has a lot of options as you can see in the chart here:

http://www.emc.com.tw/eng/tpn_sp_prod.asp


It also has a one-finger tap option which emulates a mouse left click.

It wasn't working consistently* for me however so I disabled most of the features. The only ones I left on are the horizontal and vertical scrolls at the edge of the pad. The one-finger tap and window switching were especially driving me nuts. And on my particular laptop model there is no way to know, by touch only, when you are at the edge of the touch pad, so it was esp. easy to switch windows without intending to, if that option was enabled.


Quote:
I ain't givin' up my mouse 'til they pry it out of my cold, dead hands, but that's because it's a wireless Trackman. I can sit it on my leg, lean back in the couch, and move around the screen at leisure, 'til I need to type something.
You turned yourself into a mouse pad!



* Well, more likely, being human I wasn't applying pressure to the pad consistently ... but I'm not about to change my species.

Last edited by Kaylee; 3rd January 2013 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:31 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Since none of these issues exist on the Windows 8 desktop I assume you're using Windows 8 on a tablet? Unlike with other tablet OS, you can swipe the App to just take up a quarter of the screen on the side with your browser taking up the rest of the screen, no need to switch
I'm on a laptop. While programs don't run full screen, any apps like Skype run full screen.
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Old 4th January 2013, 02:24 PM   #208
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Since my attempt at running virtusalization and the Win 8 trial failed, as the upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8 is just £25 I'm tempted to possibly try the upgrade to see what it's like, but I need a "get out" short of reinstalling Win 7 completely.
Is there an easy downgrade process from Win 8 if you really don't like it? I had read it wasn't possible but things may have changed.
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Old 4th January 2013, 02:39 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Since my attempt at running virtusalization and the Win 8 trial failed,
You might have to enable a "No Execute Bit" through your machine's BIOS/EFI/whatever... even if it is running in a virtual machine.

I had to do that, myself, before running Win8 on VMPlayer.

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Is there an easy downgrade process from Win 8 if you really don't like it? I had read it wasn't possible but things may have changed.
I don't think there is a downgrade process. But, one thing you can try, if you have 2 hard drives or partitions, is dual-booting. When the machine starts up, you can select which OS to boot from.

-Mitch
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Old 4th January 2013, 02:42 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
I'm on a laptop. While programs don't run full screen, any apps like Skype run full screen.
I'm told that things like the audio player only run full screen; it's not possible to have a small window in the corner of the screen so the controls are always available. Is this correct?
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Old 4th January 2013, 02:55 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I'm told that things like the audio player only run full screen; it's not possible to have a small window in the corner of the screen so the controls are always available. Is this correct?
Window media player will run as a window, but the default music player app runs at full screen, yeah.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:26 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
You might have to enable a "No Execute Bit" through your machine's BIOS/EFI/whatever... even if it is running in a virtual machine.

I had to do that, myself, before running Win8 on VMPlayer.

I don't think there is a downgrade process. But, one thing you can try, if you have 2 hard drives or partitions, is dual-booting. When the machine starts up, you can select which OS to boot from.

-Mitch
Yeah dual boot is a possibility, if I could find a simple partitioning prog for my existing hard disk. Could I dual boot from an external USb3 disk at least just to try it out for a session? Probably not.

I tried Virtual Box for the trial but keep getting a reboot to continue loop if I recall.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:38 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
I tried Virtual Box for the trial but keep getting a reboot to continue loop if I recall.
Did it have a BSOD with a frowny logo : ( on it?
If so, you might need to adjust something in the BIOS/EFI settings.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:40 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
...What if someone who wasn't trained in the art of getting used to Windows 8...
I've never had a problem adapting to a new version of windows dating back to Win286. Until Win8. Unmitigated disaster are the first words that come to mind.

Although if you saw me bumble for a year and a day writing this post on an infernal ipad, you'd take my opinion with multiple grains of salt.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:58 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I'm told that things like the audio player only run full screen; it's not possible to have a small window in the corner of the screen so the controls are always available. Is this correct?
Well, one thing you can do is have the Modern UI Music App playing on one of the sides of the screen, while using another App in the rest of the screen.

But, you can only run one App in the side at a time. So, if there is anything else you want to have on screen, you need to make a choice.

Plus, the Metro app goes away whenever the Start Screen is showing, or when the screen is locked. So, it's not as persistent as what you might find in other OSes.

Or, alternatively, as ShadowSot pointed out, you can use the older, standard desktop Media Player application. That runs like it used to. But, you might not have it on some devices.


There are additional problems: Some people are noting that, depending on hardware, the Music app will break up the sound of the song whenever the system is doing any background processing. This includes screen locking. So, if you play long song, and your screen goes blank, you can expect a slight pause in the music while the screen shuts off.
This is similar to the problems an earlier version of Windows Media Player, version 6 I believe, had with CD audio music. But, that was corrected until around the time Media Player 8 or 9 was introduced. Sound performance doesn't seem to be much a priority with the company.
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Old 4th January 2013, 06:05 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
I'm on a laptop. While programs don't run full screen, any apps like Skype run full screen.
It sounds like your talking about the Skype MUI App, which is full screen (or swiped to one side)?

Any particular reason you're running the MUI App and not just normal Skype?
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Old 4th January 2013, 07:03 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Did it have a BSOD with a frowny logo : ( on it?
If so, you might need to adjust something in the BIOS/EFI settings.
No , no BSOD.
I've just installed the latest version so will now try again.

Googling I see it is possible to install to an external disk but I just want to
try it virtually if possible.

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Old 4th January 2013, 09:36 PM   #218
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Ok I have got it installed via Virtual box. I had to enable intel virtualization in the BIOS.

First impression. Not impressed. Actually quite frustrating.
I am now into the desktop but since there is no start etc at lower left I don't know without ggoling etc how to bring up the program menus or are they gone without third party software? And why isn't there an intuitive mouse action to get back to the Modern interface without using the Windows key? Or is there? The charms bar currently provides little of use and won't open in my version by mouse action to the right side as it should ( I had to google how it's supposed to work ) but only with the Win + C keys.

Click on an "app" panel and it opens to fill the entire screen, with a "preview" that does nothing , No mouse action to get out of it - only Win key.

Why isn't there, like previous versions, some kind of new user friendly intro to the changes / what's new in Win 8 so we don't have to flail around trying to find our way around?
Very unintuitive.


It's 4.30am here and I am going to bed and will look try again but I do not like what i have found so far.

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Old 4th January 2013, 10:48 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
First impression. Not impressed. Actually quite frustrating.
Welcome to Windows 8!

The Operating System Everyone is Eventually Getting Used to Using!
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Old 5th January 2013, 02:37 AM   #220
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Icerat and Wowbagger, what line of work are you guys in? Do either of you have actual experience in the field of software development?

The reason I'm asking is because throughout this thread, Wowbagger has been presenting his critiques of Windows 8 much in the manner of a user experience (UX) designer, whereas Icerat has been essentially arguing that most of Wowbagger's points are invalid because the usability of Windows 8 is a matter of subjective preference and people will adapt to it.

Well, contrary to what many people may think, "usability" is not merely a matter of personal preference; there really are objective rules governing the design of user interfaces, at least from a usability perspective. Some design approaches are indeed objectively better than others, in terms of efficiency and ease of use.

Good user-centric design is actually based on a science of sorts. The usability of a given interface design can be objectively determined through laboratory testing. Usability tests involve human subjects: users with average skills of the target user base, but who've had no prior experience with the new interface being tested. The test subjects are usually evaluated in groups of 5 or more. They're seated in front of computers running the software to be tested, and given specific objectives to perform via the interface. During the execution of those assigned tasks, they're observed, timed, and monitored. Performance is judged by standardized metrics such as the time and/or number of clicks required to complete an action, time spent consulting reference materials or asking for assistance, number of errors made, etc.; the users' opinions and other feedback are usually polled at the end of the test also. When a new version of a software package is being tested, A/B tests are frequently used to compare performance and UX between the new version and the old. Examination of usability test results has consistently shown that beyond personal preference, certain UI design approaches are objectively better than others.

Now of course none of Microsoft's usability testing results are available to the public, but plenty of independent UX professionals have evaluated Windows 8 and offered critiques. What do you think the prevailing opinion has been?
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:28 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It sounds like your talking about the Skype MUI App, which is full screen (or swiped to one side)?

Any particular reason you're running the MUI App and not just normal Skype?
Any particular reason why apps on a windowed environment would be limited to operating in full-screen mode? Why force users to step back 20 years in terms of UI on a PC?
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:30 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Ok I have got it installed via Virtual box. I had to enable intel virtualization in the BIOS.

First impression. Not impressed. Actually quite frustrating.
I am now into the desktop but since there is no start etc at lower left I don't know without ggoling etc how to bring up the program menus or are they gone without third party software? And why isn't there an intuitive mouse action to get back to the Modern interface without using the Windows key? Or is there? The charms bar currently provides little of use and won't open in my version by mouse action to the right side as it should ( I had to google how it's supposed to work ) but only with the Win + C keys.

Click on an "app" panel and it opens to fill the entire screen, with a "preview" that does nothing , No mouse action to get out of it - only Win key.

Why isn't there, like previous versions, some kind of new user friendly intro to the changes / what's new in Win 8 so we don't have to flail around trying to find our way around?
Very unintuitive.


It's 4.30am here and I am going to bed and will look try again but I do not like what i have found so far.
Tried the registry hack to disable Metro and revert to a Windows 7 style interface?
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:40 AM   #223
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I like the idea behind the new user interface. We are not too far from the time when a mobile phone will be ready to replace a full desktop PC. It will be connected to a keyboard, a monitor and something like a USB hub for home use, and it will function as a smartphone when on the move.

However it looks like the implementation of the idea by Windows 8 is horrible. The chances I will be upgrading from Windows 7 are slim, especially since I consider Windows 7 to be less user-friendly than XP already.
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:46 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
However it looks like the implementation of the idea by Windows 8 is horrible. The chances I will be upgrading from Windows 7 are slim, especially since I consider Windows 7 to be less user-friendly than XP already.
The only thing it needs imo is the option for those not using a touch screen interface to be able to turn off Metro easily.
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:38 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
<snip>

Now of course none of Microsoft's usability testing results are available to the public, but plenty of independent UX professionals have evaluated Windows 8 and offered critiques. What do you think the prevailing opinion has been?

That's an interesting search.

The first page and a half or so of hits are all articles giving the impression that experts have panned Win8.

Further reading of those articles reveal that that all the experts are Jacob Nielsen, who runs his own independent usability testing business, and they all reference one article he wrote.

His testing involved "twelve experienced PC users". I wonder how many MS tested?

After that page and a half or so of hits you finally get to one which points out that Jacob Nielsen also panned the iPad when it first came out, and for many of the same reasons.
Quote:
Summary: iPad apps are inconsistent and have low feature discoverability, with frequent user errors due to accidental gestures. An overly strong print metaphor and weird interaction styles cause further usability problems.
That was based on seven users' experiences.

Obviously he knows his stuff, since the iPad was such a dismal failure.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 5th January 2013 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:32 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Tried the registry hack to disable Metro and revert to a Windows 7 style interface?
Well if it were a full install/upgrade I might do a lot of things to customize but this is my first ever virtualized OS and I don't really want to hack the registry or install third party progs - I want to come to Win 8
naked, as it were, just as most new users would. I want to see what all the fuss and criticism are about and whether I feel it's justified.
I'm genuinely trying to be fair to what MS actually deliver.
I do think the Modern (Metro) interface already looks rather dated or soon will.
Some users are keyboard orientated (often older perhaps who used DOS and early Wordperfect etc ) , some mouse centred. As I've said so far I do not like the way some actions do not seem to have both mouse and KB alternatives. Perhaps there is a mouse gesture equivalent of a finger/hand motion on a pad , in Win8 . But is not made apparent to myself as a new user on a conventional PC.
There was a bottom scroll bar on the Modern UI for me, new, a bit ugly , but it's clear what action would reveal more based on previous Win versions so I wasn't too bothered. At least I knew what to do next there.

I will try another run later.

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Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 5th January 2013 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:42 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
I like the idea behind the new user interface. We are not too far from the time when a mobile phone will be ready to replace a full desktop PC. It will be connected to a keyboard, a monitor and something like a USB hub for home use, and it will function as a smartphone when on the move.

<snip>

Not very far at all. I can already do all of those things you mention with my Note 2.

Not a "replacement", so much. I still prefer my laptop for many things, but it's surprising how often I find myself reaching for the phone instead.

There's a whole lot of redundancy between my phone, tablet, and laptop now. If I had to choose just one, the phone could already provide most if not all of my personal computer needs.
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Old 5th January 2013, 07:27 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Any particular reason why apps on a windowed environment would be limited to operating in full-screen mode? Why force users to step back 20 years in terms of UI on a PC?
Huh? You have the choice of the full screen app which works better than the windowed app on a portable touch device, or the window app which works better with a mouse and keyboard

How in the world is giving users additional choices "forcing" them to do anything?
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Old 5th January 2013, 07:28 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The only thing it needs imo is the option for those not using a touch screen interface to be able to turn off Metro easily.
Easily done - don't click on a metro app.
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Old 5th January 2013, 07:49 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Huh? You have the choice of the full screen app which works better than the windowed app on a portable touch device, or the window app which works better with a mouse and keyboard
Which apps are you presented with by default when you turn the PC on? Why is a non-touchscreen device even offering apps designed for a tablet?
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Old 5th January 2013, 07:55 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Icerat and Wowbagger, what line of work are you guys in? Do either of you have actual experience in the field of software development?
Yes, I do. I've owned (and sold) several successful internet companies and now working on a number of new startups.

I prescribe to the view that, in general, "an intuitive interface is whatever you're used to."

Take Windows 8 and Windows 8 phone. Yesterday we received one of the latter. The menu interface is different, leaving behind the "page" approach instead extending screens way beyond the visible portion.

My non-techie wife has had zero problem using it. Why? Because she's already become used to swiping on other phones and tablets. Extended screens visible through swiping is intuitive for her because she's already used to swiping. 5 years ago turning a page was "intuitive", because we're used to doing it. Now most people are used to swiping.

Quote:
The reason I'm asking is because throughout this thread, Wowbagger has been presenting his critiques of Windows 8 much in the manner of a user experience (UX) designer, whereas Icerat has been essentially arguing that most of Wowbagger's points are invalid because the usability of Windows 8 is a matter of subjective preference and people will adapt to it.

Well, contrary to what many people may think, "usability" is not merely a matter of personal preference; there really are objective rules governing the design of user interfaces, at least from a usability perspective. Some design approaches are indeed objectively better than others, in terms of efficiency and ease of use.
There's a lot of BS in lots of fields, including UX design.

Yes, there's valuable insights and useful information as well, but really it does come to "whatever you're used to".

Quote:
Good user-centric design is actually based on a science of sorts. The usability of a given interface design can be objectively determined through laboratory testing. Usability tests involve human subjects: users with average skills of the target user base, but who've had no prior experience with the new interface being tested. The test subjects are usually evaluated in groups of 5 or more. They're seated in front of computers running the software to be tested, and given specific objectives to perform via the interface. During the execution of those assigned tasks, they're observed, timed, and monitored. Performance is judged by standardized metrics such as the time and/or number of clicks required to complete an action, time spent consulting reference materials or asking for assistance, number of errors made, etc.; the users' opinions and other feedback are usually polled at the end of the test also. When a new version of a software package is being tested, A/B tests are frequently used to compare performance and UX between the new version and the old. Examination of usability test results has consistently shown that beyond personal preference, certain UI design approaches are objectively better than others.
And you think Microsoft hasn't done that with Windows 8?

Quote:
Now of course none of Microsoft's usability testing results are available to the public, but plenty of independent UX professionals have evaluated Windows 8 and offered critiques. What do you think the prevailing opinion has been?
Yes, as noted above your "plenty" is primarily Nielsen - whose 15 minutes ran out long ago. I never gave him much credence.

As I noted above, no OS is perfect, and Windows 8, just like every other OS certainly has it's inconsistencies and issues. Wowbaggers critiques are little more than pedantic nitpicking, and in some cases just plain silly.
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Old 5th January 2013, 08:37 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which apps are you presented with by default when you turn the PC on? Why is a non-touchscreen device even offering apps designed for a tablet?
Most of them work just fine on a desktop as well, I use several myself, but I agree this is one area where MS dropped the ball in their design - they're promoting the use of these apps no matter what your hardware setup. The "store" for example is entirely these types of apps.

If you're using a mouse and keyboard and nothing else most of them are less functional (and usable) than their "desktop" equivalents.
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Old 5th January 2013, 10:39 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It sounds like your talking about the Skype MUI App, which is full screen (or swiped to one side)?

Any particular reason you're running the MUI App and not just normal Skype?
Uh... because if you try to install it, it will only install the App?
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Old 5th January 2013, 11:30 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
Uh... because if you try to install it, it will only install the App?
ahhhh .... I see skype now has a "windows 8" version on their own website now and getting in on the confusion.

Just install the Windows Desktop version.
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Old 5th January 2013, 01:13 PM   #235
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My Internet connection is problematic this weekend, so I won't be able to post much until Monday or so, after this one. Just know that my lack of responses does NOT mean I am giving up the arguments.

Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Icerat and Wowbagger, what line of work are you guys in? Do either of you have actual experience in the field of software development?
Yes, I have been a professional software developer my entire adult life, predominantly on the Windows platform. Though, nowadays I mostly work with ASP.NET.

I have been "loyal" to Windows since version 3.1. I even upgraded my own machine to Windows Me and Windows Vista, when they were new, without much hesitation, and managed to live through their weaknesses just fine. Though, sometimes my recommendations to others were on the lukewarm side.

I have dabbled in other desktop operating systems, too: Various variations of Linux (RedHat, Suse, Ubuntu), MacOs, and OS/2 Warp (remember that?), to name a few. And, though each has their quirks, I have never felt at a loss of where to go to get anywhere or do anything.
I have had no issues getting around Android, my mobile OS of choice.

Windows 8 is the first time I felt like the OS was unusable, as first installed. You really need to do a LOT of customizations, and install Start8, before it feels like you are "at home" with it. This is the first version of Windows where I am actively telling people to stay away from it, if you can!

As a software developer, I can empathize with some of the reasoning behind the Modern UI. For example, there are some genuine advantages to having stateless apps, even if people have to get used to the lack of Close buttons, and sometimes even Save buttons, etc.

But, that is no excuse to botch the actual usability of UI they have to work in.

Even though I have an MSDN Premium subscription, which (among other things) grants me the right to install Windows 8 on up to 5 machines (it used to be 10), for testing, evaluation, and development purposes, I am keeping it relegated to a single Virtual Machine, for now.

It happens that my current Windows 7 based Tablet PC is becoming a bit of a dinosaur, and I will be itching to replace it this year. So, that means my new machine will likely have Windows 8 preinstalled on it... Sigh... At least we have Start8 around to make things right.

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Any particular reason why apps on a windowed environment would be limited to operating in full-screen mode? Why force users to step back 20 years in terms of UI on a PC?
Well, it kinda makes sense on a device with a small screen, at least.

Though, even that argument hasn't stopped others from making windowing available in some other tablet OSes, such as variations of Android and Linux. (If the Linux variation available for the Motorola Razr docking stations wasn't so damn limited in other respects, it would be an AMAZING portable OS. At least it proves windowing CAN work well on a small screen.)

And, for big screens: Yeah, no particular reason. They just messed up on that one.

If you have multiple monitors, you have even bigger issues: All those features that require you to swipe from the top or sides won't work unless your mouse pointer is very precisely positioned at the right pixel row or column, when you begin the swipe.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I prescribe to the view that, in general, "an intuitive interface is whatever you're used to."
This is a very naïve and overly simplistic attitude. There are, in fact, many innate aspects of human nature that one should take into account when designing a UI, many of which had to be learned the HARD WAY, over the many decades computers have been in existence.

Granted, there is variation to be had, sometimes, based on cultural norms: For example, some languages and cultures are more prone to like horizontal text scrolling better than vertical, even though vertical considered the norm for most of the so-called Western World.

But, even after those are taken into account, there are still plenty of universals, or near-universals, one must consider. For example, it is generally a bad idea to present people with a blank screen when results are available for a search query. Even if you can train people to click on something else after they click Search to actually find where the results are, it still goes against general innate expectations.

However, let us pretend for argument sake, that you are right, for just a moment: That an intuitive interface really is "whatever you are used to", and nothing more:
It happens that people are used to having a Start button and small Start Menu on their desktop at all times, when using Windows. That means: By your own argument, Windows 8 is a bad UI. It is not, in fact, what people are used to using.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And you think Microsoft hasn't done that with Windows 8?
From what I understand, the head of Windows development, Steven Sinofsky, was cheerleading the removal of the Start button, against the recommendations of many others on the team. And, he was let go shortly after Windows 8 was released.

That does not tell us anything about Microsoft's usability test results. But, it does demonstrate a complete lack of care for such things while it was in development.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Wowbaggers critiques are little more than pedantic nitpicking, and in some cases just plain silly.
Right. Because showing people a blank screen when search results are found is not, at all, silly.
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Old 5th January 2013, 01:36 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Now of course none of Microsoft's usability testing results are available to the public, but plenty of independent UX professionals have evaluated Windows 8 and offered critiques. What do you think the prevailing opinion has been?


Those sure are some overwhelmingly negative results.
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Old 5th January 2013, 01:49 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Ok I have got it installed via Virtual box. I had to enable intel virtualization in the BIOS.

First impression. Not impressed. Actually quite frustrating.
I am now into the desktop but since there is no start etc at lower left I don't know without ggoling etc how to bring up the program menus or are they gone without third party software? And why isn't there an intuitive mouse action to get back to the Modern interface without using the Windows key? Or is there? The charms bar currently provides little of use and won't open in my version by mouse action to the right side as it should ( I had to google how it's supposed to work ) but only with the Win + C keys.

Click on an "app" panel and it opens to fill the entire screen, with a "preview" that does nothing , No mouse action to get out of it - only Win key.

Why isn't there, like previous versions, some kind of new user friendly intro to the changes / what's new in Win 8 so we don't have to flail around trying to find our way around?
Very unintuitive.


It's 4.30am here and I am going to bed and will look try again but I do not like what i have found so far.
Icerat's post #163 gives a nice summary of how to effectively maneuver around in Win 8.

I miss having access to a Linux system. Would you recommend using Virtual Box over a dual boot system?
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Old 5th January 2013, 02:31 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post

I miss having access to a Linux system. Would you recommend using Virtual Box over a dual boot system?
To be honest, in my limited experience of it , no. this is my first ever use of a virtualization prog. I am running WIn 8 in a smaller window within virtual box. It never fills the screen because there is a border so I am losing some screen real estate but have jsut enough to try it. It may have to do with some graphics settings or something but I think it would be much better if you could dual boot. I did see if that was possible but I don't have any unallocated space on my PC HD so I think creating a partition without reformatting etc might not be easy for me unless someone has any suggestions.
But virtual box is free so you could try it to see if it's any use. I only found it via an article about installing the Win 8 consumer preview.




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Old 5th January 2013, 03:15 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
ahhhh .... I see skype now has a "windows 8" version on their own website now and getting in on the confusion.

Just install the Windows Desktop version.
I figured as soon as I posted that I'd probably missed something. Got it installed properly now.
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:19 PM   #240
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So supposing you don't want your Modern start page cluttered up with all those redundant tiles/shortcuts to apps. How'd you go about deleting some of them? According to my virtual Programs add/remove programs panel I have no programs installed so the apps aren't listed there.
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