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5th January 2013, 03:21 PM | #241 |
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5th January 2013, 04:15 PM | #242 |
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Right click on the tile, the bottom menu appears and you have the choice of removing the tile or uninstalling the app completely.
Add/remove programs is for desktop programs. Again, this difference between the two types of interfaces is where Microsoft screwed up. They should not be encouraging people without touch screens to use the touch apps. I read up on the Nielsen usability testing (the one that got cited 100 times, so some folk here think it means there's a hundred bad reviews) - Nielsen had people using the "touch" apps on non-touch desktops, exactly the thing I'm talking about. |
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5th January 2013, 08:33 PM | #243 |
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I applaud the economy of your perfunctory dismissal there. Your handwaving skills could have given Ralph Macchio a run for his money back in the 1980s. There's a reason why Jakob Nielsen's review was picked up by so many tech news outlets. He's a founder of one of the leading user interface design firms in the world. His partner, Donald Norman, wrote the definitive books on user-centric design that are taught in academic product design and software development programs all over the world. Do you think the comments from his personal blog would have gotten any play if they'd been written by some entry-level designer at Joe Blow's Wordpress Theme Emporium? If the head of the TSA came out and said in a blog post that he wouldn't personally fly on a particular model of airplane, that would presumably garner a lot of headlines as well. Would you argue that he's only one guy, so his opinion is invalid? Anyway, Nielsen's not the only UX writer to criticize Windows 8. Here are some other industry professionals I found cited on the first few pages of my search results: Raluca Budieu (UX professional): http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ga...nfusing-954680 Peter Bright (UX writer/reviewer): http://arstechnica.com/information-t...wkward-hybrid/ Even professional Microsoft advocate blogger Paul Thurrott attributes lagging Windows 8 sales partially to wishy-washy design concept: Gabe Newell (head of Valve, and a former Microsoft exec) called Windows 8 "a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space." http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/va...-newell-talks/ You obviously didn't even read that thing you linked. It wasn't a "pan" of the iPad. The negative remarks were mostly centered on the design quality of the early apps, and anyway the commercial marketing success of the iPad is irrelevant to criticisms of its UI. If you read the article you linked, you also might have noticed that the NN Group also conducted a second study of the iPad a year later, documenting improvements to its usability. |
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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5th January 2013, 08:54 PM | #244 |
Illuminator
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Wow. So you're one of the Forbes 500 or something? I'm just as impressed now as I always am whenever I read somebody on the Internet making vague claims of being a wealthy, big-time mover-and-shaker, creator and seller of numerous "successful companies." We see a lot of people making those kinds of claims on these forums, and they usually bring a lot to the table by way of personal opinion and bluster, but very little in terms of evidence or objective reasoning. Oh really. You "prescribe" to that view? You must be very influential. How much training do you have in the field of UI design and usability testing? OK, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as bad product design because people will just get used to it. I suppose people could devise some elaborate method of steps to use the above teapot without making a mess or getting scalded. People might even become accustomed to such a complicated way of serving tea in order to avoid injury. But would that mean that the teapot design is "good"? There's even more BS on Internet forums. How much do you actually know about this field that you're so glibly dismissing? Not really, no it doesn't come down to "whatever you're used to." As Wowbagger pointed out, by that metric Windows 8 is definitely a failure because nobody is used to it. There's a lot more to usability than "whatever you're used to." Good design is deliberate. Usability design involves some knowledge of cognitive psychology. It's a process that requires systematic testing and revision, or else lots of usage in the field with numerous failures, before it is done right. Good design involves making things simpler and less troublesome to use, not needlessly complicated and confusing. Most of the points I've seen in this thread regarding the Windows 8 interface (in the linked reviews and by Wowbagger and others) have been focused on specific, legitimate design failures of Win 8 in those areas. I have no way of knowing what they have or haven't done by way of user testing at Microsoft. But I can tell you from many years of personal experience in the software development field, that some companies will spend obscene amounts of money on usability testing and then just throw away all that valuable information and go with whatever the senior business guys have decided they like best. "15 minutes"? You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Nielsen and Norman practically invented the industry of user experience. By the way, It's especially amusing to watch you proselytize about how great the Windows 8 user experience is, in between wordy explanations to Windows 8 users how to perform basic navigation and tasks within the operating system. |
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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5th January 2013, 09:46 PM | #245 |
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I was asked, I gave an honest answer. If your response is to imply people are liars then it says more about you than me.
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Of course, I could just be lying.
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What people are used to includes what they are used to in the real world, and those developed in response to our particular physical and cognitive traits and how they interact with the world. What you are saying is in no way incompatible with what i'm saying.
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Seriously, why is anyone surprised that apps designed for a touch interface are not well designed for non-touch interfaces? If you're going to be evaluating Windows 8 on a non-touch device, shouldn't you be evaluating the desktop? Which, by the way, is what this discussion was primarily about.
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Apart from Wowbaggers silly complaints about people forgetting in a millisecond why they went to a menu, and not remembering where the start icon or key is, I've been in agreement on the various problems, like the ridiculousness of trying to use a touchpad as a touchscreen proxy, or directing people to the Windows store for apps on non-touch devices, not to mentioned the lack of introduction to the differences in many setups. Windows 8 is clearly designed with touch and hybrid devices in mind. Microsoft's biggest mistake isn't in the design per se, it's in not clearly differentiating the use and purpose of the two separate interfaces, particularly for the many people not using touch screens. In the hybrid area MS is obviously trying to create a new market category in which it hopes to dominate, and that's what the focus of this OS is. Along with that they are working on unifying their interface across phone, appliance (xbox), desktop, hybrid and tablet. (see also today's news on the home automation front) Screwing up the user transition when upgrading on other machines or on new non-touch machines is a marketing mistake, not a technical one. |
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5th January 2013, 11:02 PM | #246 |
Illuminator
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Of course you could. But I never said you were lying. I just said I've seen lots and lots of people make similar claims on Internet forums, and their reasoning and argumentation skills often seem to follow a particular pattern. If you doubt my words, drop in here and have a look around. Then by that reasoning, Windows 8 is undeniably poorly-designed. It's proven to be so different from what average Windows users are used to, that it causes confusion. That fact has been noted by numerous reviewers and experts, and demonstrated objectively in independent testing. The fact is, many objective factors influence the quality of usability, far beyond "what people are used to." I seriously question the quality of your claimed education in the area of usability design, if you really believe that single simple rule to be the case. If that were true, then usability would be antithetical to innovation, which it obviously is not. No, they were not. Most of them were, simply because he was by far the most famous expert who wrote about it. But there are other reviews, if you bother to look. It's Windows. Windows has traditionally been designed to work on a "non-touch machine." Most of the machines out there running Windows are "non-touch machines." It is not, therefore, unreasonable for the lab to have tested Windows 8 on that kind of hardware. Microsoft is faced with an exceedingly difficult problem. They're trying to retain a 90-something percent share in a rapidly changing market which is shifting away from the dominant paradigm of desktop/laptop PCs, into a number of new form factors with new human interface technologies that Microsoft does not have a dominant market share of. Their dinosauric scale and tectonic production schedule are not assets in this kind of environment. Other desktop OS developers have been facing the same challenges and feeling the same kind of backlash. Ubuntu Linux dropped Gnome Desktop in favor of a new hybrid touch/KM interface called Unity (which is far less obtrusive than the changes in Win8), and have since dropped from 1st to 3rd in popularity. Of course Linux users have the freedom to choose any number of alternate window managers—or even install a whole new distribution if they like—and still run all the same software. But what choice do Windows users have? Back-grade and sit on Win 7 for 10 years like almost half of them are still doing with XP? Apple has suffered the slightest reprisal from their users so far, but they haven't really even started to make the transition yet. Thus far, a touchscreen Mac is still the stuff of legend. Mountain Lion is still a traditional desktop OS, though you can see them taking baby steps in the touchscreen direction with the jumbo fly-out menus and emphasis on App Store purchasing and "cloud" storage. Whatever they end up doing, I'm sure they'll just advertise it as "the most advanced operating system in the history of the world" and their customers will just eat it all up without question. But the real test remains to be seen: how they'll navigate the path to touchscreen while maintaining backward compatibility with the old hardware. Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with this OS in the way they often do: stuffing 15 pounds of **** in a 5-pound sack, and now it's bursting at the seams. We're not talking about apps, we're talking about an operating system. The problem with Win 8 seems to be that the desktop has been usurped and dominated by this clunky, kludgey taped-on touchscreen interface that seems to frequently interrupt workflow and get in the way of normal productivity. I think you don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about. You apparently read one C/NET commentary that quite wrongheadedly contrasted Jakob Nielsen with Steve Jobs, and now you're an instant pundit. That's a known cognitive issue. When you're designing an interface for humans, best practice is to take human protocols and human imperfections into account. I don't recall him complaining about "not remembering where the start icon or key is." I disagree. From a usability standpoint, the design is abysmal. They screwed it up big time. Failure to clearly communicate the functionality of control elements in a UI is a major usability flaw. If that transition is handled by Microsoft's servers and software and those systems fail to process the critical differentiation, then it most certainly is a technical problem. |
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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5th January 2013, 11:03 PM | #247 |
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There is a joke that the product probably should have been called Microsoft Window (singular).
I don't know. Why don't you just... get used to it! There is plenty to complain about, that has nothing to do with the included Apps. We already covered the "no results" Search issue, where there are results found, you just have to click on something else to find them. That is NOT an App. That is a key OS feature. Did anyone mention the lack of confirmation when you delete a file, yet? Because that is a pretty big deal, and it does not even have anything to do with Modern UI or Apps. The Start Screen is not an App. It is a core OS feature. And here are four other reasons the Full Screen nature of it is a bad idea: 1. It hinders learning via tutorial. If someone is trying to learn Windows 8 by reading or watching a tutorial in Windows 8, they are going to have to make the tutorial disappear while any of the full screen features are up, including the Start Screen. I know someone who gives lessons on Windows who is constantly running into this problem. He recommends running Windows 8 tutorials from a separate machine they are actually learning on, if they have one. He generally does not recommend using multiple monitors, because those are problematic with the OS for other reasons. 2. This is true for ANY video you might be watching. Let us say you are watching the stream of a live event, and decide to bring up an application to take notes or bring up a photo or something while it is going on. You are going to have to miss a few seconds of that event, in order to do so. Unless the application was pinned to the taskbar, but sometimes they are not. (This also might not be a problem with multiple monitors, but those are problematic for other reasons.) I know this is bound to happen to me, sooner or later, if I did not have Start8. And, I am probably not the only one. 3. A designer friend of mine sometimes uses the Search to look for resources while using applications. When the only Search screen is full screen, she loses context on what she is working on. (Not merely "forgetting where she was"), so coming up with search strings on the fly, based on different things she has in the design application, becomes more difficult. 4. Someone accidentally hits the Start key or button (which does happen from time to time), interrupting an important visual task they had to concentrate on. (I can not think of any specific examples of this, but I am sure it is not an unreasonable concern for someone.) The lack of visual cues, and the need to swipe in the Charms bar indicates, to me, that non-touch desktop machines have taken a back-seat in user consideration. That is not a problem with the Apps. That is how the core functionality of the OS was designed, even when trying to use the desktop interface. I could go on. But, I hope you get the picture. If Windows 8 is to be dismissed as merely a marketing mistake, then it is SUCH A BIG marketing mistake, that it EVEN EFFECTS how the technical aspects of the operating system work!!!! |
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6th January 2013, 02:20 AM | #248 |
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The thing is that Microsoft have the power to manipulate the market once again. Even Vista, that received so much negative criticism, was adopted at very high rates. People reported they were not satisfied with it but they had already bought it. MS will force Windows 8 on new hardware, will offer a redeeming feature to gamers, will manipulate software developers. In the end adoption will certainly fall within Microsoft's estimations.
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6th January 2013, 07:33 AM | #249 |
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Yes also once you have bought it you officially become a part of the pro windows 8 numbers game. There is no way to return it if you upgraded online and even if you reinstall or dual boot an earlier windows version there is no way for you to remove yourself from the stats that Microsoft can manipulate into positive uptake of windows 8. How many people out there are in this situation?
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6th January 2013, 08:05 AM | #250 |
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I did complain that there is a distinct lack of on-screen visual cues, for where to go to get things, such as the Start Menu or the Search screen.
So, it is easy for some people to forget where to go for these things. Especially those not trained in "getting used to it" yet, such as someone borrowing your machine. Microsoft already learned the importance of on-screen cues, back in the days of Windows 3.1: There was no taskbar or Start button. People would minimize programs, and not know where they went. And, there was no on screen location to get to programs, when another was maximized. That is why Windows 95 was designed the way it was, with a little bit of everything on-screen, so you know where to go! Windows 8 is a huge step backwards in that regard. It seems Microsoft has to re-learn this lesson all over again! |
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6th January 2013, 09:04 AM | #251 |
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Poorly worded on my part "intuitive design" is what I meant to say.
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Then the number of changes are small and easy to get used to. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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6th January 2013, 09:13 AM | #252 |
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There's still designers using only one screen? You learn something new every day.
It's not the only search screen though. You still have search in explorer. Why doesn't she use that?
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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6th January 2013, 11:18 AM | #253 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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(Although my Internet connection is working better than anticipated, I don't have much time to get into writing responses, yet.)
Why should I have to RTFM, for basic OS operations, when I did not need to read one for every other OS in town? The articles you cite on why Neilsen is wrong are pretty dumb. I don't have time to elaborate on them, now. But, here is a sample of my responses: From the first one: http://craigpugsley.wordpress.com/20...out-windows-8/
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It IS possible to move forward with a progressive new interface WITHOUT kicking out existing users. Most other operating systems have managed to do this relatively well, most of the time. The MORE inspiring attitude to have would be: YES, we CAN push forward with a FRESH, NEW interface, BUT we can ALSO make it work as a world-class contender for the EXISTING user base and hardware, AT THE SAME TIME! That is the type of challenge that would be worthy of more respect. The whole "well, sometimes you have to break a few eggs" mindset does nothing but unnecessarily break a few eggs. Also, the problems the OS has are beyond merely learning how to use it. As I mention many times before: Some of the design decisions are just plain BAD even after you learned how to use it. |
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6th January 2013, 11:24 AM | #254 |
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Sorry to not reach your high standards of brilliance, but I needed to RFTM to understand my first android phone, and I am utterly clueless if you put me in front of a Mac.
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Here is what Jakob Nielsen's own website looked like up until a few days ago. After he suddenly started getting press coverage again it's been redirected to his corporate website. This is the type of design you get if you actively put Nielsen's recommendations in to practice. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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6th January 2013, 12:46 PM | #255 |
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Somehow I almost* feel vaguely guilty for not having all of the problems I'm supposed to be having switching to Win8 on a non-touchscreen machine.
It's almost like I'm letting the home team down. (*: "almost" being the operative term in this case.) |
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6th January 2013, 01:07 PM | #256 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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It happens that I did not need to read a manual before using Android for most of its features. I only had to run to Google and a bit of a manual for a few relatively obscure things. And, for some reason, I was never completely clueless on a Mac. (Though, sometimes the differences in standard keyboard shortcuts would throw me.)
I did not need a manual for much of Windows 8, either. But, I did have to suffer through figuring basic things out, such as how to search for system utilities. And, how to bring up the navigation bar in the Modern UI of IE. Etc. You know, basic things that shouldn't need to be a struggle, at all. But, this thread isn't about me. Your "RTFM" reply indicates that one needs to learn how to use an OS before they can properly use it. For those who have already used many different OSes, including previous versions of Windows, this should not be necessary. Even after I "RTFM", why on Earth, would I want to use an OS that delivers a blank screen when I search for something? Or covers the video I am running, when bringing up a new application? There are certain problems the OS has, that "RTFM" won't help. (not without additional tools installed) I, personally, don't even care who Nielsen is. This thread isn't about him, either (at least I presume not). One can evaluate the arguments he is making independently of who he is. I happen to think most of what he says makes sense. I think most of the counter-responses you linked to don't really argue against him, that much. Most of it is "get used to it" and "just learn how to use it", etc. (Ah, I remember the days when people defended the Office Assistant. Memories. Sheesh.) You don't have to feel guilty. Chances are someone is probably going to like it. There is never an ill wind that doesn't blow in someone's direction. (That doesn't mean the wind wasn't largely an ill one, though.) One CAN learn Win8, and get used to its foibles, and not have many issues. It's just that other OSes, including previous versions of Windows, were better for more types of users. And, it helps if you have a touch screen. |
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6th January 2013, 01:24 PM | #257 |
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Really?
I find UIs generally follow similar conventions for most of what I do, and I can work with any of them. The complexity arises when it becomes necessary to change the settings of the system, to fix things that don't work right, or to optimize it for certain tasks. This is why I wish MS would stop changing the damned UI. Does anyone use Windows because it's better designed than any other OS? I don't think so. Linux developers working in their spare time design UIs that are at least as good. But Windows is required for the software most people want to use, so we are stuck with it. The good news about Windows 8 seems to be that MS has fixed the broken networking of Vista/Windows 7. No more staring at the park bench, wondering whether it would be better to kill myself or someone else. Hooray for that. |
6th January 2013, 01:49 PM | #258 |
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Yeah. I dualboot Win 7/8, although I haven't poked at 8 in weeks. It's got better dual monitor support, sooo.
That said I hate Metro, so I find Classic Start + never using it works well. |
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6th January 2013, 02:13 PM | #259 |
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That is overly simplistic. If you google Linux Mint or Mageia or a lot of others, the distrowatch page link is close to the top and so they get lots of hits to their distrowatch pages. This is not the case for Ubuntu, which has its various sites closer to the top in google results (Linux Mint's distrowatch page is the 3rd result, Mageia, 4th, Ubuntu: bottom of first page). That would absolutely mean a lot fewer clicks on it. Looking at Google trends of how often people type these things in show Ubuntu is still far ahead in google searches. http://www.google.com/trends/explore...geia%22&cmpt=q
Also, Ubuntu has separate pages on distrowatch for the different flavours whereas Linux Mint just has the one for its different versions. Adding Lubuntu, Kubuntu etc page views and it gets to be pretty much Linux Mint's total. Also, Linux Mint gained attention for maintaining a traditional desktop paradigm from a range of people, not just people moving from Ubuntu as several other distros have switched to Gnome Shell as default. And other things like it just measuring page hits on a particular source and not use or downloads etc. |
6th January 2013, 03:18 PM | #260 |
Illuminator
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Except that in real-world usage, users would have to interact with both the desktop interface and the "Metro" interface. There's no separating the two without resorting to 3rd-party utilities. Sure there are dissenting opinions. It's been a lively debate so far. But I think Nielsen (among others) makes some excellent points in his criticism of Windows 8. As for the smattering of examples you posted, I'll address all those in order:
But the desktop experience is pre-empted with that "Metro" garbage whenever you have need to access functionality formerly triggered through the Start Menu, because the Start Menu no longer exists! A better solution might have been to make the OS capable of operating in either of two discrete modes—touchscreen mode or KVM mode—and made that switchable in the settings. The thing they did with the Start menu is simply horrendous. |
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6th January 2013, 03:35 PM | #261 |
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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6th January 2013, 03:49 PM | #262 |
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So... I how about those Ribbons?
(They still irk me for some reason.) |
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6th January 2013, 04:05 PM | #263 |
Illuminator
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I don't like ribbons either, though I can see how some people might. At least they're user-customizable which is a plus.
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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6th January 2013, 04:08 PM | #264 |
Illuminator
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I was primarily disputing that distrowatch page hits for Ubuntu, Linux Mint and Mageia can be used to compare the popularity of these distros for the reasons I gave.
There are not very good stats comparing usage share between distros but Ubuntu would still be ahead of Linux Mint by a wide margin in terms of usage share. |
6th January 2013, 04:24 PM | #265 |
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Just to be clear, I don't really consider the start screen to be the "Metro interface" per se. It's a reformatted start menu. The Metro interface (and it's problems on a desktop machine) is with the apps.The start screen is not functionally different to any other menu. Find what you want and click on it.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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Your "criticisms" are like you sat down for dinner with a knife and fork and keep complaining how bad the fork is at cutting things when you actively chose to use the fork instead of the knife.
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Have YOU even used Windows 8? You're just continuing to spout the same old BS I keep reading elsewhere.
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Let's look at some of Nielsen's commentary -
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Doesn't this same problem exist when switching between a desktop and an ipad, which is the kind of situation W8 is trying to address?
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Again, for me most of the criticisms of Windows 8 come down to poor marketing. Microsoft hasn't explained what the OS is all about, so people are testing it inappropriately. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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6th January 2013, 04:29 PM | #266 |
Illuminator
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Yeah, especially considering that Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, et al would be listed as Ubuntu when doing a cat /etc/issue, despite the fact they all use different window managers and no Unity. I guess Linux usage is tough to gauge anyway, considering that many long-time users have a tendency to bounce around from distro to distro. So how can we determine if there's any truth to the allegations that Ubuntu lost significant market share after 11.10, and has lost further ground in each release since? |
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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6th January 2013, 05:00 PM | #267 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2010
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It is part of the "Metro" interface (why would you choose to say it isn't?) and it does obscure the entirety of the screen when activated. That represents an interstitial/modal interrupt of the workflow. The users are usually given instruction on how to use the software, but to have them spend days or weeks to prepare would kind of defeat the point of usability testing. No, I never said anything about apps. I'm talking about the operating system. Please stop conflating the two. It's dishonest. Yours appears to be a rare case. While it's true that the Start menu has been expanded larger and larger with each Windows version to take up more and more screen real estate, it never before blocked out the entire screen by default. That represents an unnecessary obstruction to the workflow. More like somebody created a new utensil with the knife grafted onto the fork, so you can't use the knife without the fork constantly getting in the way. Yes. I've tested it on my own machine in VirtualBox. All this talk about Jakob Nielsen is frankly a bit off-topic. However, his comments about the iPad mostly focused on the poor UI of the apps available at the time. Why do you always seem so bent on conflating the discussion of operating systems with discussions of third-party apps? Do you not understand the difference? "For you"? Why don't you explain to us "what this OS is all about" in your own words, because an awful lot of people appear to be very confused about it. Doesn't it strike you as a little strange that any modern operating system should require somebody to spend so much time explaining basic premises and giving instructions on how to accomplish fundamental tasks? That to me indicates a glaring failure of usability. |
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“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain |
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6th January 2013, 05:09 PM | #268 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,714
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I tried to look at ways we can infer that. I looked at Alexa rankings of their websites but I didn't see tracking over that time period . The Google search trends I posted before show Ubuntu going down but that started in 2009 and continues. Perhaps mirror owners (of multiple) can give the best unbiased idea. I don't know.
Ubuntu would have lost a portion of its users but it had so many to begin with. I would be a surprised if they lost users on 12.04 (it was so well reviewed), but not surprised with 11.04, 11.10 or 12.10. |
6th January 2013, 06:52 PM | #269 |
Philosopher
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It's the same style, but it's not a Metro app, which are specifically designed for touch screens, I just consider them different, as the issues that arise with the touch apps on a desktop don't really occur with the Start Screen.
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How is switching to an entirely new device with an entirely different OS not already an obstruction to workflow?
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(well, two words really, Surface Pro) But I'll be a marketer - Windows 8 is designed to bridge the world between all your devices. Whether it be your xbox, phone, tablet, desktop machine, or new wired appliances under development, Windows 8 gives you a consistent experience across all of them. The new Modern User Interface is designed primarily for use on touch devices, but Windows 8 also has the old Windows 7 desktop interface you've grown to love. If you're at your desk, you have the full power of the windows 7 desktop, with all the same programs and abilities as before. If you're out and about then the same machine is now a powerful tablet, with an interface and apps specifically designed for touch. Windows 8. Simplify your life. That's what windows 8 is about - developing one interface for all these different appliances. Phone, xbox, PC, tablet, and now home automation systems. Isn't it obvious what they're trying to do? You can't, at least not yet, throw away the desktop, and I'm not sure if you ever will be able to, but this is a bold attempt to unify all the differing emerging technologies. People right now are bouncing between their iPhone and their Windows PC and their android tablet. How is having the same (or at least, very similar) interface on all of them not dramatically less disruptive than moving between completely different OSs?
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I don't consider 5 minutes to be "so much time". |
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6th January 2013, 07:11 PM | #270 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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This is what it's like to find where the Windows Event Viewer is, for the first time.
Windows 7: Click Start. Type "eve" (you don't need anything else). Click the icon for it. Windows 8: Open the Charms bar. Click Search. (Screen goes away.) Type "eve", nothing comes up. continue typing out "nt viewer". Still nothing comes up. Hmmm.... Maybe it's in Control Panel, this time. No. Search Google for the answer, or visit your local Microsoft Store (like I did, because Google didn't even have an answer at the time). Aha! Click "Settings", under Search to find the program, after typing "event viewer" again. Click the icon for it. (It's not until you click the icon that you get back to the desktop.) You can do it in fewer steps the second time around. But, that's a lot of rigamarole for something that should be a fairly simple process, even if only IT people care about it. And, unless it's pinned to something, there is always a modal change (into Modern UI and out again) you have to go through, anyway. If I am wrong about that, I must be delusional. |
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6th January 2013, 07:26 PM | #271 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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No, you can't throw away the desktop, yet. But, with the lack of Start buttons and classic Start Menus, it sure looks like they're trying!
It might be worth trying to tie together a unified interface for all those devices, not too many people are arguing that. But Windows 8 does it wrong. It takes portable devices a little bit backwards (there is no reason windowing can't work on a tablet, they just chose not to do it, while others are gearing up to do so.); and the desktop way, WAY backwards. Someday, someone will devise an interface that can be a world-class usability champion for all computing devices one will use. But, Windows 8 probably ain't gonna be it! Besides, the argument that there even NEEDs to be a single UI to rule them all is flawed. Yes, it would be NICE to have one. But, why can't we use a UI that is appropriate for the device it is installed on to, until someone does? Your lawnmower probably has a different UI than your microwave oven. Maybe we should come up with a way to unify them! Let's start the microwave by yanking a cord on it, and make sure the timer setting is prominent and easy to use on the lawnmower! |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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6th January 2013, 08:29 PM | #272 |
Philosopher
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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6th January 2013, 08:30 PM | #273 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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I just wanted to say that I was about to write up my own responses to the linked counter-arguments. But, it looks like you saved me the trouble, for the most part. Thanks!
I find it really telling how even the most ardent of Windows 8 defenders are still implying that the thing is actually fairly flawed. And, that they will resort to the thinnest, least inspiring of arguments to defend the issue of "learning it", anyway. Where did this sudden love for Microsoft come from?! |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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6th January 2013, 08:34 PM | #274 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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You know, it would have been nice if there was... an on-screen prompt ....to get there! Not even the folks in the Microsoft Store explained anything about right-clicking the corner. I didn't learn about that until a few days ago watching a video critical of the OS. And, why do I need to right-click? In previous versions it was left-click, to get some of those same menu items. Right-click one place, left-click another. This is something I am just going to have to get used to, right?! |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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6th January 2013, 09:06 PM | #276 |
Master Poster
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Or Microsoft could get rid of metro/modern, charms and the other bs and stop trying to suicide on desktops the way they did with phones.
They effectively giftwrapped their userbase and market share and handed them over to android when Apple entered the scene, causing them to fearcrap wp7 out onto their users Windows 8 metro/modern UI is a lazy and terrible start menu replacement. |
6th January 2013, 09:12 PM | #277 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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Don't you get it, already?!!
Isn't it a sign of fundamental design flaws, when you HAVE TO read a manual to use BASIC features of the operating system?! Why should I NEED to read a manual for Windows 8, when I most certainly did NOT need to do such a thing, for ANY OTHER operating system I have EVER used, going aaaaaall the way back to Windows 3.1?! (I will admit MS-DOS required some manual reading, if that's of some consolation to you.) When I have to use someone's iPad (which happens on rare occasions), I don't need to read a manual, first. I just pick it up and get to using it! Even for its small number of "power user" features. If I had to borrow a Surface, and didn't know everything I already know about Windows 8, how the HELL am I supposed to be able to use the thing with the same proficiency?! By claiming I have to RTFM first, you are implying, and even conceding the point, that Windows 8 really does not have an intuitive UI. And, THAT is what we, in the software industry, like to refer to as... .. a design flaw! If you don't see it like that, then perhaps you will remember this: By your own argument (an intuitive UI is "what you are used to"), Windows 8 is flawed. Not even someone who used Windows since 3.1 and onward would be "used to" this type of UI. Your arguments have been demolished, so far. I hope you have some fresh ones. |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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6th January 2013, 10:42 PM | #278 |
Becoming Beth
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6th January 2013, 10:49 PM | #279 |
Becoming Beth
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I know people who used XP for years and were dumbfounded when I showed them the menu that came up when they right-clicked an empty part of the task bar. How easy was it to get to the Task Manager (or the Desktop for that matter) without knowing about that? Less than two clicks? Even the Start button itself had some right-click surprises. I tend to experiment a lot, so I found those without RTFM, just as I did with the Metro thumbnail, but that's just me. How did you find out? |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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7th January 2013, 05:19 AM | #280 |
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
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From my limited experience of it, on a PC , the Modern UI is more like a glorified (potentially interactive) screensaver , a "tiled wall" to get past, to the desktop.
But at the office where the old desktop was , all the furniture's been taken away except the wastepaper basket. |
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