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7th January 2013, 05:38 AM | #281 |
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I'm very impressed that way back when the first introduced it, you not only knew how to find "event viewer" but even knew what it was without any prompting!
Though I must admit, I'm a little concerned that you think delving in to the log files is something BASIC for a normal user.
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BTW, Event viewer is also on the main start screen/all apps under "Administrative Tools" - exactly where it is under Windows 7!
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Clearly Jelly Bean is a non-intuitive, bad interface!!!!
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There are aspects of windows 8 I had trouble with the first few days. Now I realize they are a better and more efficient way of doing things. I'm not scared of learning new things. You clearly are. Then again, by your own admission you're delusional, so there is that ... |
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7th January 2013, 10:29 AM | #282 |
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It's a first step of troubleshooting. And it doesn't matter if it's for a 'normal user'. OS's serve multiple rolls.
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HINT: This is not a normal feature.
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7th January 2013, 10:46 AM | #283 |
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Much of that struggle ALSO applies to printer settings. Except, of course, that Printer Settings are in the Control Panel, at least. Still, they are hard to find in the Search screen, until you know to click "Settings" below it. It is easy to miss, if you did not know it was there. ALL other Search systems in ALL other operating systems don't have anything like that.
One of the things I like about the Office Ribbon, in spite of its learning curve, is that it ADDs to the discoverability of features. You can SEE more of what your applications are capable of doing, at any given time. One of the very small number of things I like about Windows 8 is that the File Explorer uses the Ribbon interface, so otherwise little-known features, such as "Invert Selection" have a better chance at gaining discoverability. However, when it comes to the Start Screen/Modern UI/ Search Screen interface, the exact opposite has taken place: Discoverability is reduced, in part because you cannot see as many system features the OS has to offer, at once. Also, because its apps (in general) are primarily designed not to show you any settings or options for them, until you swipe, right-click, or click on a side of the screen, or something. And, discoverability is reduced on the classic Desktop, without the Start button there, in the corner. No one would automatically know you can right-click to get a lot of its old features. Yes, they can be shown it, or find it on their own. But, otherwise, it would be difficult to discover such things. The Event Viewer is the go-to place for a history of the computer's error messages and other problems. A lot of us software developers like to use it to diagnose problems with our applications on other people's computers. IT and tech support personnel use it, or guide users in using it, to diagnose problems, as well. Granted, the Average Joe user won't care about it. But, it is still considered a CORE feature of the OS, something that SHOULD be relatively intuitive for someone to find, if they needed to. Claiming it can afford to be hidden, because it is little used, is like claiming fire extinguishers and first aid kits could also be hidden from view, because they are also little used. Sometimes I still discover cool, new things about my Android phone, too. But, at least I was able to use all of its core features and functions without a manual. The more recent discoveries are just bonus materials. What OS is it? I do not think Android likes people changing the names of their machines on networks, which is a bit of a bummer, I realize. But, there is something under Bluetooth Settings to do it. In Windows 7, if I click the Start Button and type "computer name", an option to "rename this computer" comes up. I am sure Windows 8 has something similar, though I am not at a Win8 machine, right now to try it. Discoverability is a key aspect of design. If I can not immediately identify where to get key features, that is a design flaw. Especially since this is NOT a problem for any other OS, anymore. You can KEEP those "better and more efficient ways", but a good OS design should ALSO take into account the "Man from Mars" approach. If a proverbial "Man from Mars", that is: Someone unfamiliar with the platform, were to try to use the device, how would they approach it? Even if the UI features are going to be a little less "efficient" (by your standards) to make it easier, they can still be included ALONG SIDE your precious, "more efficient" ones. YOU can use the "efficient" interface. The "Man from Mars" can use the easy and intuitive one. It is almost just as easy as installing Start8, in this case. Dingos Kidneys! What makes you think I am scared of learning new things? I have learned how to use countless operating systems, both desktop and mobile. I am learning new development frameworks all the time: Last year I managed to wrap my head around ASP.NET MVC fairly well, even though it is VERY different from the ASP.NET Web Forms I am used to. I am not afraid to read books or manuals, either. MVC required some good book reading. But, then again, it is something that is generally typed out, not a UI. A UI should be intuitive: I had NO issues adapting to the Office Ribbon without a manual, and THAT was a big change. (My only gripe, at first, was that the Select button was too far away from the Clipboard buttons. But, you get used to that. At least it was SOMEWHERE on screen.) When Android upgraded their phones from 2.0 to 4.0, a quite a few UI changes went along with it. But, NONE of them required a manual to re-learn, especially if you already knew 2.0 fairly well. There were just a couple of quirks to get used to, on your own. This year, I might expand my language competencies to learn more about PHP, Python*, and maybe even Ruby. I already know they are quite different from what I am used to. But, one must never be afraid to learn new things. At least each one is consistent within themselves. And, some of them try to comply with general principles of good language design, to varying degrees, and they get better at it over time. (* Django was good in his movie. I assume he ought to be just as fine as a web platform.) (That was a joke.) The Event Viewer anecdote was a true story. Not a delusion. This debate is mostly going in circles. Do you have any fresh arguments to make? |
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7th January 2013, 02:22 PM | #284 |
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why? If your designing something that people are using every day, on multiple devices, shouldn't you be designing for them? Shouldn't you design for your audience?
I have zero problem at all trading the permanent extra screen space and less clutter for 2 minutes of my life it takes to learn about swiping or where to point a mouse. Our new windows phone has no icon to indicate the app menu is found by swiping to the right. I found it immediately. Our new samsung tablet (which we got before the phone) has an icon in the top right corner. It took me a week before I noticed it. I was swiping through the pages to find the settings.
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Gee. People are different I guess.
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"One of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users is that the product's very name has become a misnomer. "Windows" no longer supports multiple windows on the screen. " (my bolding) This is completely and utterly false. Is it incompetence on his part, or ignorance? Does either help is credibility? |
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7th January 2013, 04:47 PM | #285 |
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The audience will be bound to include people who never used Windows 8 before.
I am NOT suggesting taking away multi-device functionality. All I was asking for was to RESTORE full functionality for desktop machines. Including the Start Button. Though, even on a tablet the OS is a little weak. The Start screen doesn't support widgets. You only get 1.25 applications on screen at a time. I think Win8 could have done better for tablet devices. EVEN IF the swiping part works fine. I would also like to remind you that: Windows 7 does NOT have a severe "Man from Mars" issue. (Though, labeling the Start button would help.) MacOS and iOS do NOT have "Man from Mars" issues. Android does NOT seem to have any big "Man from Mars" issues, though some of it is kinda quirky. Chrome OS does NOT have "Man from Mars" issues. Ubuntu does NOT have "Man from Mars" issues (Though, some more labeling would help). Windows 8 is the ONLY operating system where many of the "Martians" would be a loss, at least on a Desktop machine. Perhaps not as much on a Tablet. I see that as a shortcoming. The Windows Phone has a small screen, which grants it permission to not have as much on screen at once. Also, the Phone has a touch interface. So, swiping makes sense in that context. Desktop machines typically don't. Though even when they do have a touch screen, a lot of people are not prone to use it. Look up "Gorilla Arm" some time. Do you share your machines at conferences and conventions much? I do. I find it rather amusing how many people "from Mars" I run into. I do think Office 2007 should have included a "crutch mode" with the classic menus and toolbars, so I have some sympathy for you. But, at least there is MORE on screen at a time, instead of less. And, it is GREAT for those "Martians", too! So, once you get used to it, you might find it advantageous. Perhaps it might also pay to read up on some general principles of UI design. It is easy to see where they are going with this, once you do. Even if you don't, it is not like the whole thing is very foreign: It is just a wider toolbar. I was hoping you would have a fresh argument for defending the design decisions in Windows 8. Instead, you are jumping on poor Nielsen again. I am not here to defend Nielsen. My arguments against Windows 8 are my own, though it happens that they coincide with a lot of comments from experts, who can sometimes phrase these things better than I can. But, it might be worth noting that he IS right, when it comes to one important thing: The Modern UI. And, if you have a Surface or other ARM-based tablet, that is mostly what you are stuck with: Up to 1.25 apps on screen at once. Oh, there are a few exceptions: Microsoft Office (which is a fairly big exception), an alternative version of IE, and most of the older system utilities. But, it can hardly be called "Windows" anymore, in its principle tablet interface. Unless you have some brilliant manner in which you can defend Microsoft's decision to rip out features from under the desktop users (with mice and keyboards), I think this debate is done. You have no case for upgrading PC machines. And, barely a thin one for using it on tablets or new touch-screen PCs. |
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7th January 2013, 06:55 PM | #286 |
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Right, and they'll stop being that as soon as they've used it.
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Even though they don't seem to forget on tablets and phones.
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7th January 2013, 09:03 PM | #287 |
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I want an interface that IS consistent with what is EXPECTED, innately and historically, for the devices one is using. This can be consistent across all of them, and still be world-class contenders amongst all of them.
It is not easy going up for a challenge like that, but Windows 8 would have done it, with a little more effort put into its design. But, no, they took the easy, cheesy, lazy way out. I would say iOS is a little weak because it does not support widgets. Widgets give the user a chance to interact with various functions without opening up full applications. It is not an absolutely necessary feature, but if you are going to bring that into an OS, there is also no need to do it so half-assedly as live tiles. If by "live updates", you mean the live tiles in the Win8 start menu: Android DOES support something like that. Though, it would have to be either a widget (social networks tend to do this) or a transforming program icon (e-mail apps generally use this). And, you picked a fairly gaudy example: Live tiles, as they are in Win8, look too much like a hundred screaming children made of baby blocks. Not my particular taste in UI form. Windows had a shot at bringing windowing to the tablet, and make it work well. They chose for Modern UI to work full screen instead. First of all, it does NOT need to be inconsistent. One CAN take on the challenge of designing a consistent interface for all systems. If anything, the OS would have to be MORE consistent: Windows would EITHER drop the traditional desktop, and add its expected features and functions to Modern UI; OR it would apply the ability to run the stateless Modern UI Apps on the Desktop. It would NOT need the dual, schizophrenic set of interfaces it currently has!! Second of all, even if they had to keep the inconsistent duality of the interface for a while, having a "KVM Mode" with a Start Button is not, exactly, a big deal. The interface is going to be inconsistent, anyway, so why not add back the things that made desktop interfaces work best?! I am. But, I am also following computer usage niches were touch screens will not be so quickly and easily adopted, so soon. Like, for example, most business operations and government offices. And, a lot of older people's machines. None of those markets should be abandoned so flimsily. Why, yes! Sometimes people DO need to print things from my machine. And, I do not carry my own printer around. We just borrow one from the hotel's business center, or something. Or, we run to FedEx Office/Kinko's if we need to. Printers often work plug-n-play, nowadays. But, getting to Printer settings is sometimes needed, anyway. And, yes, sometimes people DO need to peer into my event logs. The most common scenario is debugging ASP.NET applications that I am developing on the machine. Error messages from them pile up quite reliably in those logs, and sometimes other people would want to look at them. If I have to show people how to get to the logs, I would feel like I am treating them like a baby. And, these are bright folks who do not like feeling like babies! It is very exceedingly rare that the event logs are examined for the purposes of diagnosing problems with the actual machine, or its core software, these days. But, should the need arise: I want them to be easily and intuitively accessible. Like fire extinguishers or first aid kits. Perhaps not quite like that: I do NOT have the Event Viewer pinned to the taskbar (except on actual servers). But, it should still be fairly easy to get to! That explains why the interface focuses on swiping. That does NOT explain the need to punish existing KVM desktop machine users for favoring tablets. The competition is gearing up to start supporting windowing on tablets better. Windows 8, with its 1.25 apps-at-a-time view, is going to be left behind! Windows could have been there, first! (Well, close to it. The Razr docking station kinda got there already, at least.) Okay. So the UI is not compelling enough for upgrading, in spite of how much quicker it works for you. Got it. |
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8th January 2013, 06:44 AM | #288 |
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Yeah, I've seen the "screaming kids" metaphor from others. Live tiles are designed by app developers. If you want to install, and pin, a hundred screaming children to your start screen, that's your choice.
I don't, so I don't. I've seen my share of gaudy android and iOs icones. Terrible OS's!
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I look forward to it.
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Really quite odd that you seem to think it is ....
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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8th January 2013, 08:38 AM | #289 |
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You can say something's wrong without needing to be able to do it yourself, you know.
It's almost as if that's a fallacy.. (In any case.) |
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8th January 2013, 11:15 AM | #290 |
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Some of whom are Microsoft, themselves. But, there are more important things to say about the OS than it superficial aspects.
For the general UI portion, I could probably describe and design a better UI than Windows 8, at least. It might take some time to fully develop a whole, real OS on my own, though. NEW is NO excuse for BAD. Let us pretend, for a moment, that it is not called "Windows". Let us even pretend, if you wish, that it did not come from Microsoft. Let us come up with a fictional name for it. How about: Joe's Tableau OS. Don't worry about where that name came from. I just made it up on the spot. Anyway, Joe's Tableau happens to look and work exactly like Windows 8, and is expected to run on the same sets of hardware. That does not mean it is a good OS. There are several issues that would need to be ironed out: First of all, the experience for desktop PCs is abysmal. There ought to be options for having some on-screen indicators for where to get things. People using mice are not automatically going to know to "swipe" from the sides, or right-click corners to get easier access to system utilities. The on-screen options could be hidden way, once the machine is operating in touch-interface mode. But, they are there, to be shown again, if they are ever useful. But, that is NOT the way Joe rolls. He really wants his Tableau to work best on tablet machines. (That could explain the word "Tableau") And, even though it is also supposed to work on desktop machines, he chose to screw them over in favor of an interface that is "more consistent". Except, of course, that it's not. Because, for some weird reason, Joe decided to give it two interfaces, anyway: A Desktop with a taskbar for some applications, and a full screen "Modern UI" for others. Makes perfect sense in that context, doesn't it? Then, there are other things Joe did with his Tableau that are puzzling: * Why is there a separate Settings button for search results? * Why does the OS fail to confirm when I delete a file? * Why is there no persistent, on-screen clock; except on the Desktop which is hardly used by tablets? * Why is there two different versions of Joe's Internet Explorer, that do not talk to each other? (These MUST all be very wise decisions, because Joe spent billions of dollars building this thing!) * Why must the Start page take up the whole screen, all the time? Can't I bring up a mini menu of my favorite applications, like other desktop operating systems? * Why must I give my Facebook log in information to a Joe Account, before I can view FB photos in his Photos app? Seems like an weird, potential privacy invasion, to me! (Yes, this is app specific. But, it is a genuine issue.) Joe's Tableau: A NEW Operating System Designed to be The Best for Every Device Imaginable! Woo-hoo. |
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8th January 2013, 03:12 PM | #291 |
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Why aren't I finding it abysmal?
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I don't feel at all "screwed over" and I like the very minor changes.
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And more importantly why is there a persistent on-screen clock on my android tablet? One of the most common questions I see on android forums is from people wondering how to get rid of the menu/clock bar on tablets. Anyway, I have a clock on my start screen. Easily viewed with a swipe. I can run it in a sidebar if I really need to see it while working in a main app. I'm doing it right now. I switched Chrome from desktop to MUI, right in the middle of typing this post, and fixed my clock to the left sidebar.
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Use another app. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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8th January 2013, 07:07 PM | #292 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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I don't know. Maybe the design appeals to a limited subset of possible users.
Maybe some people will just eat anything tossed at them, I guess. It is NOT impossible for SOME people to absolutely and honestly LOVE the operating system. There's always someone who absolutely and honestly LOVES a lot of objectively bad things. What?!!!!! Didn't we go over this already? What about the "Man from Mars"? The one who never used the OS before, and just wants to get things done, without having to learn how to use it, first? You honestly, really, truly, deeply don't think this matters?! It is still a bad design, for reasons we already went over. Try coming up with something new and insightful to defend the OS. Actually, I beg to differ: It is CLEARLY faster when at least 2, if not all 3 of those, are in the same Search results page. Windows 7 search is, in fact, faster to find what you are looking for no matter what "group" Windows 8 thinks they should be in. Under Win8, you have to take an extra step to find "Settings", if you are in "Apps". I would like "Settings" items to appear when I type them: NOT a "no results found" message, which is actually a lie. There is a setting to turn prompting on. But, by default, it is off in most cases. I have tested it, and it does not offer a prompt in the default install I used. There usually is. It is strange that yours does not have one. And, there is one on the iPad, too. And, on almost all portable devices you can name. I suppose an option to get rid of them might be useful. But, most people like to know what time it is when they are looking at their devices. The clock is often the most glanced at feature. What if you want music controls in the sidebar, instread? (Is that the Modern UI you are using? I thought you didn't use that.) Why should an extra swipe be necessary, just to view a lousy clock?! Internet browsing is considered an essential part of the OS experience, these days. So, while it might technically be an App, it is an especially important one. First of all, only Modern UI apps appear on the left. If we are using primarily desktop apps, that is not going to work. Second of all, that is NOT a comprehensive menu of applications and settings. It is only running applications. And, some of them might not necessarily be favorite ones, all the time. You are seriously suggesting that a task-list pane, with limited capabilities, is a good substitute for the Windows 7 Start Menu?!! Equivalent to a Microsoft Account. In Windows 8, you must give Microsoft's servers your Facebook account log in information, in order to view Facebook photos in the Photos App. It does not connect to Facebook directly. It ONY connects through Microsoft Account, first, which goes into Facebook on your behalf. It's a pretty dumb thing to do, though. |
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8th January 2013, 08:34 PM | #293 |
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Seems awfully silly not to have easy access to volume control from the Modern UI. They didn't even put volume control in the Music app's controls. Why do I have to go into Settings to do it?
Such a simple, simple, simple, thing. How can a company that spent a billion dollars developing this thing leave out such a simple, stupid, little thing?! |
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9th January 2013, 05:53 AM | #294 |
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Or perhaps the design doesn't appeal to a limited subset of possible users.
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Here's the thing - there are no men from mars.
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9th January 2013, 06:38 AM | #295 |
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The more I read this back and forth, the less I want to try out Windows 8. I'm not looking for a "desktop experience", I want easy, quick access to my files, programs, and settings.
I hesitated switching from XP to Vista. When they finally came around with Win7, found that it resolved all of the issues that I had with Vista, and now I'm running it on my laptop and my desktop. I'm not interested in a touch interface for my laptop or desktop. For me it's an ease of use thing, and a convenience factor. I have the commonly-used apps pinned to my Start menu, and I've customized my taskbar to display what -I- feel to be the most pertinent information. Sure, there are some improvements that can be made, but if I need to change a setting, it's only two clicks away. Then again I support computers for a living, it's my bread and butter. At my organization, we're barely making the switch to Win7 now. I doubt we would ever migrate to Windows 8. Sure, some users make use of tablets for -some- activities, but the learning curve for a my clients would be nearly impossible to overcome with any sense of ease. At some point I may try Windows 8 on a dummy machine, but based on what I've read, it's a poorly-implemented idea that is doomed to be another ME and Vista. |
9th January 2013, 09:00 AM | #296 |
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There are three groups of desktop/KVM users:
Those who love Windows 8 right away, and get right into everything it does, even with only a keyboard and mouse. This is probably the smallest group. Those who install Windows 8, find it difficult to use, at first, but just let it go, and learn to live with it. Eventually it might grow on them. This is probably a larger group. But, this indicates the system has more in common with Stockholm Syndrome than any actual improvements to the OS. Those who find Windows 8 to be rather puzzling. Many of them do figure out how to use it, but they ache for the day they can go back to a better desktop/KVM experience. Many of them are installing Start8 to do that. I am willing to bet this might be the largest group of users. I do not have any formal data on this, yet. But, are you willing to take this bet? Together we can find an independent source of usability surveys, that we can mutually agree are accurate, and see what they have to say on the matter. That is what most other operating systems do. At least for its core features. Well, I did NOT mean that literally! Sheesh! ALMOST EVERYONE who approaches Windows 8, for the first time, is effectively "from Mars". As you point out, they must LEARN how to use the system, EVEN IF they used Windows before. Don't tell me there are no "men from Mars"! YOU were one of them, yourself! Which happens most of the time. When I type "printer" I get a small number of results. When I type "event" I get a small number of results. When I type "cmd" I get a small number of results. When I type "regedit" I get a small number of results. When I type "mouse" I get a small number of results. Etc. Etc. Etc. Granted: If I only type one letter, say "a", yes that brings up a LOT of results. But, it is worth noting two things: 1. It is rare for someone to do a search that is that vague. 2. Even in this case it would be easier, for most people, to find what they are looking for on one screen, rather than having to click through three or more of them, if you did not know which category it was in. The way Search was designed in Windows 8 is, in fact, flawed. Both. Some Apps are full-screen, such as most games. The clock is still considered "persistent" if it stays up on the home screen and most of the apps and features. For some people it might not be necessary. Perhaps there could be an option to take it off. But, in Windows 8, there is NO option to even put one on! Not even if you want one! And, persistent clocks are one of the most glanced at features on a mobile device, for most people. Seems like a silly thing to leave out. I use a LOT of applications. Some of them less frequently than others. And, often a bunch of system settings, too. My taskbar would be overloaded with icons, if I had to put all of those things on there. The Windows 7 Start Menu is much more organized. The Windows 7 Start Menu was designed with desktop/KVM users in mind, but it can be augmented for other types of devices. Windows 8 was designed to force people to use an interface much more appropriate for tablet/touch-screen devices, even if they are not using such a thing. (And, even then, it is kinda limited in scope.) There is no technical reason why it needed to be done that way, I can assure you. Every other OS on the market has a Photos app that can log directly into Facebook, without going through a third party, first. If it is for marketing purposes, it seems awfully shady. |
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9th January 2013, 10:26 AM | #297 |
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I'm running Windows 8 on a virtual machine and I really don't see any advantage to 7, to be honest. Sure, concerning the old start menu I was able to add one via the classicShell freeware, but then it looks like an ugly version of Windows 7. What's the advantage here anyway? Not to mention that I wouldn't want to use Microsoft on a tablet. Or use my main system via "touch". After all, control of the system at hand means everything to me. So I hate whenever I'm forced to have to search for file-/system options or being forced to be degraded to a *********** noob's user interface. |
9th January 2013, 02:12 PM | #298 |
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You missed what I think is the largest group by far. People who install it, find it's much the same as Windows 7 with a few minor differences, and get used to it pretty much immediately and then slowly discover other features that makes them appreciate it more.
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How much have you used it for?
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Right now I have Kindle reader open on my Samsung tablet. No persistent clock!
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Seriously, how long have you used Windows 8 for? |
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9th January 2013, 02:15 PM | #299 |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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9th January 2013, 07:15 PM | #300 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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Except that access to different things is in different places: Applications one place, system utilities in another (which is harder to get to), search in yet another, and basic settings in another. Etc.
That is roughly equivalent to my second group. Those "few minor difference" you speak of equate to "difficulty in usage", for all practical purposes. Even if the difficulty is minor and temporary for some people. It might be worse for more of them. You said it. Not me. But I disagree with you. You are not an idiot. Just a different type of user. When some people approach a new operating system, they are willing to read up on instructions first, before exploring its features. Or, in some cases, after trying to use its features for a short while. Then there are those who just want to get into the operating system, and get things done, without reading a manual first. If they have to read a manual, they would rather use a different system. I happen to have a vast history of using a wide variety of operating systems, for all sorts of computers and devices, since the mid-1980s. This includes the recent history tablets and smart phones and such. Why should someone like me need to read a manual to use basic features in an operating system, anymore?! Maybe if the OS was a command prompt, like DOS or Linux without a visual shell: A command reference might be useful, at least. But, if I am expected to point and click my way around, it ought to be fast, easy, and intuitive to do just that. And Windows 8 is not such a system. You had to learn how to use Windows 8, yourself. In Windows 7, I can ALSO type "ev" and it comes up. Except, I don't have to click a "Settings" category button, first. And, more importantly, I am not staring at a screen that says "no results found", even though there were actually results found. I don't think many people search for only one letter. Two usually brings the results down to a meaningful pile, as noted above, with "ev". There is NO "lots of results" you imply, as a reason to divide things up. I do not, technically, have a problem using Search either. My point is that it is still a flawed design. It is flawed for reasons I already went over a bunch of times. Reasons that are objective. Not mere opinion. Don't be smart with me. You know what I mean. A least the new models of Kindles have persistent clocks. Though, they can be turned off when in book reading mode, I think. By default, is only shows prominent applications, which are mostly Modern UI apps. System utilities, you have to get some place else, until you pin them. (But, why should I need to pin them?!) Documents another place. Search is in another spot. Etc. Windows 7 has all those things packaged in one neat location. |
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10th January 2013, 02:38 AM | #301 |
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If we follow the alternating pattern:
Windows 95 - bad Windows 98 - good Windows Me - bad Windows XP - good Windows Vista - bad Windows 7 - good then we have: Windows 8 - bad I don't know, maybe in Microsoft they have found some formula where they sell more if they alternate good and bad releases. After all they are not afraid that people may choose something other than Windows. |
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10th January 2013, 03:15 AM | #302 |
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I'm basically a fan of Windows 8. I appreciate what MS is trying to do and for once they seem slightly ahead of the curve. I can see a time approaching, quickly, where people will expect every screen to respond to touch input and will be surprised to find one that does not.
However, that doesn't mean that in all contexts touch will be primary. On desktops keyboard and mouse are going to remain primary for the foreseeable future, and Win8 is just not oriented for this environment. I'm going to also be controversial and say that I don't think the difference between vista and Win7 was all that big. Vista introduced a new driver model that broke lots of devices, then by the time of Win7 many manufacturers had released new drivers so compatibility was much improved. But it was the same driver model. And permissions are ********** in both versions IMO. |
10th January 2013, 05:35 AM | #303 |
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I've had my new desktop (with Windows 8) now for 2 days now so I'll chime in.
It does take a little getting used to, but the info on using it is not exactly secret, there is a "using Windows 8" tile right on the start screen. I was reserving the option of getting Start8 , it was this thread that convinced me to go ahead and get a Win8 machine when I learned this option was available. I think I'll keep using Win8 though, the pros outweigh the cons once you get used to it. |
10th January 2013, 06:51 AM | #304 |
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Our IT people say they cannot manage to make Windows-8 work with most of what we need it to work with.
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10th January 2013, 06:56 AM | #305 |
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10th January 2013, 07:10 AM | #306 |
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10th January 2013, 08:27 AM | #307 |
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That's not quite how I see it. Windows 95 was, in general, a very good OS. It had some wonky bits in there, since plug-and-play was a new concept, and the Internet was barely a thing, yet. And, configuration was sometimes difficult, because some devices still had to rely on DOS drivers. Etc.
But, the OS itself was largely a huge improvement over Windows 3.1. And, in many respects better than the Mac, at the time. Windows 98 was a mild improvement over 95. So, both are good. You left Windows 2000 off the list, I assume because you were focused on home users. But, it is worth mentioning that it is largely considered Microsoft's BEST Operating System, ever. (Windows NT 4.0 was largely an improvement over 3.5, for whatever that's worth, but not considered "that great", for various reasons.) Windows Me was kinda bad. And unnecessary. Seemed like a desperate stop-gap until Windows XP could be perfected. Windows XP, being an upgrade of Win2K rather than Me, was a good OS. It stuck around a looong time, and many people are STILL using it! Windows Vista was bad, in a few respects. File performance was at a bit of a low ebb, with that one, among other things. And, the UI started getting inconsistent. Windows 7 brought some sanity back to the system. So, it was good. Windows 8 could have been somebody. It could have been a contender. In summary: Windows 3.1 - cute, but bad Windows 95 - good Windows NT 4.0 - meh Windows 98 - good Windows 2000 - good Windows Me - bad Windows XP - good Windows Vista - bad Windows 7 - good Windows 8 - bad and ugly |
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10th January 2013, 08:34 AM | #308 |
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
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Yeah Window 95 was good. At the time.
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10th January 2013, 09:05 AM | #309 |
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The live tiles are very useful, especially the weather tile. The local weather is displayed all the time, and I can get a forecast for any of the cities I travel to(I added them to a favorites list) with one click. News headlines are displayed in other tiles, if it's something I'm interested in I can go there.
I didn't like everything being hidden at first, but now that I know where everything is, I am just enjoying the feel of the system. For example, while I'm typing this, I can hover the cursor and get a window to pop up of another app I'm running . |
10th January 2013, 09:20 AM | #310 |
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well I can get live weather with the widget I am using in Win 7, though with widgets there turned out to be a woeful lack of more widgets for Win7.
I can also see a small live pop up of any prog in WIn 7 by hovering my cursor or maximising with a click. So glad you are enjoying it but I see no compelling advantage to use it yet. |
10th January 2013, 10:20 AM | #311 |
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I've never used Win 7, I came straight from xp pro, which explains why I needed a new computer, it was an antique.
For me it was a question of whether to buy a slightly older model that came with Win 7 , or put Start8 on this one, and so far I don't see an advantage in either. |
10th January 2013, 11:14 AM | #312 |
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Yeah, since you made a double leapfrog your good experience may be more to do with also having the advantages of Win 7 , so the pros may well outnumber the cons compared to XP. Xp was overall, a damn good OS and so is WIn7
Though I like many held out and waited til Win7 from XP specially given the bad reception of Vista. Also didn't disparately need to replace my PC at the time. I think a question for Win 9 is this: Will it go boldy more down the road of Win 8 , if enough MS apps and touch can be supported and produced by third parties (but as I said, widgets didn't go anyway on PCs) or will MS have to make concessions and return to a more PC/touch/phone divide and lick it's wounds. Will it be a home PC and corporate niche producer ( albeit still a pretty big niche) Is this a fight that it cannot afford to lose? - |
10th January 2013, 11:44 AM | #313 |
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No they're not, they're all available from the start screen, or explorer, or you can pin them to your taskbase, just like windows 7. The biggest differnence is the very handy right click system windows, which contrary to your claims, makes things much easier to get in to.
Yeah, I know, you give your laptop to strangers visiting from mars and you think they should be able to easily find all your system settings. Good grief. Some settings are in a different place (the MUI settings screen), and I agree that's inconsistent, but that and accessing the charm bar on a multi-screen setup is about is my only criticisms. Oh - and things like video/music/pic apps defaulting to the MUI versions. Easily changed the first time you run them, but I think it would be better if they'd asked.
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Guess perhaps I'm not an idiot then - since I've managed my way around windows 8 just fine. I'm not from mars either, which helps.
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If you're going to type "ev" you have to type "e" first (well, unless you cut and paste), that gives you, instantly, a search for "e" as you type the "v" and narrow it down.
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Microsoft is supposed to some how miraculously read people's minds and work out what you want pinned at the beginning after a fresh install?
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10th January 2013, 12:58 PM | #314 |
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10th January 2013, 01:30 PM | #315 |
Penultimate Amazing
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10th January 2013, 02:03 PM | #316 |
Illuminator
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I agree.
I remember how MS missed the Internet completely... and then, a couple of years later, their story line was that Internet Explorer was so integral to Windows that they had no choice but to put Netscape out of business. Now they are frantically trying to catch up with a shift to touch screen environments, by putting a touch screen interface on computers that don't have touch screens. Presumably they reason that hardware companies will have no choice but to manufacture laptops with touch screens, which means laptop users will become accustomed to the Windows touch screen interface, and they will want the same, familiar interface on their phones and tablets. As always, MS seeks competitive advantage by leveraging their sheer size to manipulate an entire industry, while contributing little if any intrinsic value. |
10th January 2013, 03:48 PM | #317 |
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A funny thing is that some of the UI changes were things that I always wanted (e.g. the "flat", detailed 2D vs 3D eye-candy). But I actually seem to quite hate the design. Either the subtle 3D cues are helpful or I have become too accustomed to them.
No, I must protect my ideology from the real world! This was just a bad implementation of it. I'm sure. |
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10th January 2013, 04:13 PM | #318 |
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Windows 7.5 and 8 mobile are brilliant. Their biggest mistake there, apart from being way too late to market, is having the launches too close together and 7.5 not upgradeable to 8, so lots of people didn't buy while waiting.
Claiming Windows 8 as an attempt to play catchup is ridiculous, since afaik they're the only ones trying to do what W8 is trying to achieve. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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10th January 2013, 05:36 PM | #319 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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I can draw diagrams, if you wish but, in Windows 8:
Programs: Left-Click the bottom left corner. All Programs: Right click on the Start Screen and click button on the lower right corner. System Utilities: Some of them: Right-Click (instead of left-click) on the bottom left corner. Others: Find under Settings in the Charms Bar. Not there, either: Search for it, but don't forget to click the Settings category button. Search: Right side of screen has an icon, when hover in the right spot. Open applications: Left screen has SOME of them. Others are on the taskbar on the bottom. Documents: You can search for them. If you want to see the folders, you have to go into Explorer. Help and Support: It is under settings, for some reason, on the right side of the screen. Help is near the top of it. Power Options: Also under settings, on the right side of the screen. Power is near the bottom of it. In Windows 7: Programs: Click Start in the lower left corner. All Programs: Click All Programs in that same corner menu. Programs stay to the left of that menu. System Utilities: Almost all of them: Click Start in the lower left corner. More can be found in Search, also on the same left corner. Search: Click Start in the lower left corner. Documents: Click Start in the lower left corner. Open Applications: Taskbar on bottom of the screen, starting near the lower left corner. Help and Support: Click Start in the lower left corner. Power Options: Click Start in the lower left corner. Noticing a pattern, here? For someone who worked in software, you are acting an awful lot like this is a strange thing. I did not need website tips for any other OS I have worked with. I have Windows 8 Pro installed in a virtual machine, on my main desktop at home. I practice using it, sometimes even for serious work, every now and then. But, most of the time, I am use the Windows 7 host OS. My Tablet PC, which is also used a lot, is Windows 7 based. I do not have Win8 on it. Yeah, so? Your argument for keeping Settings and Apps separate in Search was in case you got "lots of results". My counter-point was two-fold: 1. A search for two or letters will not yield "lots of results", so no point in keeping separate categories for that reason. This is, in fact, what people do most of the time. 2. A search for only one letter (which I don't think anyone really does) would probably yield lots of results. But, this is true inside any of the categories. So, there is no reason to keep them separate for that reason. No, because knowledge gained in the fields of practical psychology have demonstrated so, over time. Even for BASIC operating system features, that are not Apps?! Sure, I have customized a few things in the OS: Put favorite applications in prominent places, and such. But, for Windows 8, I have to do that even for basic things. Then, I have to duplicate that effort on every machine I use. With Windows 7 I can get straight to work on them, even before I had time to set every shortcut icon up how I wanted it. They did NOT need to be pinned in Windows 7. Microsoft miraculously developed a UI that offered easy, nearly-one-stop access to features no matter what kind of user you were. But, apparently, that was too good for people. So, they decided to sprinkle different things around in different places, in the next OS. |
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10th January 2013, 07:22 PM | #320 |
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Yup, you haven't used Windows 8.
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