IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th January 2013, 05:38 AM   #281
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Don't you get it, already?!!

Isn't it a sign of fundamental design flaws, when you HAVE TO read a manual to use BASIC features of the operating system?!

Why should I NEED to read a manual for Windows 8, when I most certainly did NOT need to do such a thing, for ANY OTHER operating system I have EVER used, going aaaaaall the way back to Windows 3.1?! (I will admit MS-DOS required some manual reading, if that's of some consolation to you.)
I'm very impressed that way back when the first introduced it, you not only knew how to find "event viewer" but even knew what it was without any prompting!

Though I must admit, I'm a little concerned that you think delving in to the log files is something BASIC for a normal user.

Quote:
When I have to use someone's iPad (which happens on rare occasions), I don't need to read a manual, first. I just pick it up and get to using it! Even for its small number of "power user" features.
And here am I two weeks later still discovering new things on my Jelly Bean tablet. Clearly I'm an idiot and just not as smart as everyone else.

Quote:
If I had to borrow a Surface, and didn't know everything I already know about Windows 8, how the HELL am I supposed to be able to use the thing with the same proficiency?!
Oh give me a break. My wife has been using computers for a decade and I don't think she has EVER even wanted to look at Event Viewer.

BTW, Event viewer is also on the main start screen/all apps under "Administrative Tools" - exactly where it is under Windows 7!

Quote:
By claiming I have to RTFM first, you are implying, and even conceding the point, that Windows 8 really does not have an intuitive UI. And, THAT is what we, in the software industry, like to refer to as...
I'm trying to change the name of my samsung tablet when it appears on my wifi network. I can't find where.

Clearly Jelly Bean is a non-intuitive, bad interface!!!!

Quote:
If you don't see it like that, then perhaps you will remember this: By your own argument (an intuitive UI is "what you are used to"), Windows 8 is flawed. Not even someone who used Windows since 3.1 and onward would be "used to" this type of UI.

Your arguments have been demolished, so far. I hope you have some fresh ones.
Here's the thing - just because you don't know where something is immediately (or even "intuitively"!!) does not mean it's a poor design.

There are aspects of windows 8 I had trouble with the first few days. Now I realize they are a better and more efficient way of doing things.

I'm not scared of learning new things. You clearly are.

Then again, by your own admission you're delusional, so there is that ...
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available

Last edited by icerat; 7th January 2013 at 05:43 AM.
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 10:29 AM   #282
KoihimeNakamura
Creativity Murderer
 
KoihimeNakamura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III
Posts: 7,958
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm very impressed that way back when the first introduced it, you not only knew how to find "event viewer" but even knew what it was without any prompting!

Though I must admit, I'm a little concerned that you think delving in to the log files is something BASIC for a normal user.
It's a first step of troubleshooting. And it doesn't matter if it's for a 'normal user'. OS's serve multiple rolls.

Quote:
And here am I two weeks later still discovering new things on my Jelly Bean tablet. Clearly I'm an idiot and just not as smart as everyone else.
Context required.

Quote:
Oh give me a break. My wife has been using computers for a decade and I don't think she has EVER even wanted to look at Event Viewer.

BTW, Event viewer is also on the main start screen/all apps under "Administrative Tools" - exactly where it is under Windows 7!
Inaccurate comparison. Also, pulling that up is hilariously difficult.

Quote:
I'm trying to change the name of my samsung tablet when it appears on my wifi network. I can't find where.

Clearly Jelly Bean is a non-intuitive, bad interface!!!!
" Menu, settings, wireless & networks, bluetooth settings, device name. Hope that helps."

HINT: This is not a normal feature.

Quote:
Here's the thing - just because you don't know where something is immediately (or even "intuitively"!!) does not mean it's a poor design.

There are aspects of windows 8 I had trouble with the first few days. Now I realize they are a better and more efficient way of doing things.

I'm not scared of learning new things. You clearly are.

Then again, by your own admission you're delusional, so there is that ...
Insult, unreliable ancedote.
__________________
Don't mind me.

Last edited by KoihimeNakamura; 7th January 2013 at 10:32 AM.
KoihimeNakamura is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 10:46 AM   #283
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Though I must admit, I'm a little concerned that you think delving in to the log files is something BASIC for a normal user.
Much of that struggle ALSO applies to printer settings. Except, of course, that Printer Settings are in the Control Panel, at least. Still, they are hard to find in the Search screen, until you know to click "Settings" below it. It is easy to miss, if you did not know it was there. ALL other Search systems in ALL other operating systems don't have anything like that.

One of the things I like about the Office Ribbon, in spite of its learning curve, is that it ADDs to the discoverability of features. You can SEE more of what your applications are capable of doing, at any given time.

One of the very small number of things I like about Windows 8 is that the File Explorer uses the Ribbon interface, so otherwise little-known features, such as "Invert Selection" have a better chance at gaining discoverability.

However, when it comes to the Start Screen/Modern UI/ Search Screen interface, the exact opposite has taken place: Discoverability is reduced, in part because you cannot see as many system features the OS has to offer, at once. Also, because its apps (in general) are primarily designed not to show you any settings or options for them, until you swipe, right-click, or click on a side of the screen, or something.

And, discoverability is reduced on the classic Desktop, without the Start button there, in the corner. No one would automatically know you can right-click to get a lot of its old features. Yes, they can be shown it, or find it on their own. But, otherwise, it would be difficult to discover such things.


The Event Viewer is the go-to place for a history of the computer's error messages and other problems. A lot of us software developers like to use it to diagnose problems with our applications on other people's computers. IT and tech support personnel use it, or guide users in using it, to diagnose problems, as well.
Granted, the Average Joe user won't care about it. But, it is still considered a CORE feature of the OS, something that SHOULD be relatively intuitive for someone to find, if they needed to.

Claiming it can afford to be hidden, because it is little used, is like claiming fire extinguishers and first aid kits could also be hidden from view, because they are also little used.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And here am I two weeks later still discovering new things on my Jelly Bean tablet. Clearly I'm an idiot and just not as smart as everyone else.
Sometimes I still discover cool, new things about my Android phone, too. But, at least I was able to use all of its core features and functions without a manual. The more recent discoveries are just bonus materials.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm trying to change the name of my samsung tablet when it appears on my wifi network. I can't find where.
What OS is it?

I do not think Android likes people changing the names of their machines on networks, which is a bit of a bummer, I realize. But, there is something under Bluetooth Settings to do it.

In Windows 7, if I click the Start Button and type "computer name", an option to "rename this computer" comes up. I am sure Windows 8 has something similar, though I am not at a Win8 machine, right now to try it.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Here's the thing - just because you don't know where something is immediately (or even "intuitively"!!) does not mean it's a poor design.
Discoverability is a key aspect of design. If I can not immediately identify where to get key features, that is a design flaw. Especially since this is NOT a problem for any other OS, anymore.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There are aspects of windows 8 I had trouble with the first few days. Now I realize they are a better and more efficient way of doing things.
You can KEEP those "better and more efficient ways", but a good OS design should ALSO take into account the "Man from Mars" approach.

If a proverbial "Man from Mars", that is: Someone unfamiliar with the platform, were to try to use the device, how would they approach it? Even if the UI features are going to be a little less "efficient" (by your standards) to make it easier, they can still be included ALONG SIDE your precious, "more efficient" ones.

YOU can use the "efficient" interface. The "Man from Mars" can use the easy and intuitive one. It is almost just as easy as installing Start8, in this case.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm not scared of learning new things. You clearly are.
Dingos Kidneys! What makes you think I am scared of learning new things?

I have learned how to use countless operating systems, both desktop and mobile. I am learning new development frameworks all the time: Last year I managed to wrap my head around ASP.NET MVC fairly well, even though it is VERY different from the ASP.NET Web Forms I am used to.

I am not afraid to read books or manuals, either. MVC required some good book reading. But, then again, it is something that is generally typed out, not a UI.

A UI should be intuitive: I had NO issues adapting to the Office Ribbon without a manual, and THAT was a big change. (My only gripe, at first, was that the Select button was too far away from the Clipboard buttons. But, you get used to that. At least it was SOMEWHERE on screen.)

When Android upgraded their phones from 2.0 to 4.0, a quite a few UI changes went along with it. But, NONE of them required a manual to re-learn, especially if you already knew 2.0 fairly well. There were just a couple of quirks to get used to, on your own.

This year, I might expand my language competencies to learn more about PHP, Python*, and maybe even Ruby. I already know they are quite different from what I am used to. But, one must never be afraid to learn new things. At least each one is consistent within themselves. And, some of them try to comply with general principles of good language design, to varying degrees, and they get better at it over time.

(* Django was good in his movie. I assume he ought to be just as fine as a web platform.)
(That was a joke.)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Then again, by your own admission you're delusional, so there is that ...
The Event Viewer anecdote was a true story. Not a delusion.

This debate is mostly going in circles. Do you have any fresh arguments to make?
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 7th January 2013 at 10:48 AM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 02:22 PM   #284
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
You can KEEP those "better and more efficient ways", but a good OS design should ALSO take into account the "Man from Mars" approach.
why? If your designing something that people are using every day, on multiple devices, shouldn't you be designing for them? Shouldn't you design for your audience?

I have zero problem at all trading the permanent extra screen space and less clutter for 2 minutes of my life it takes to learn about swiping or where to point a mouse.

Our new windows phone has no icon to indicate the app menu is found by swiping to the right.

I found it immediately.

Our new samsung tablet (which we got before the phone) has an icon in the top right corner. It took me a week before I noticed it. I was swiping through the pages to find the settings.

Quote:
YOU can use the "efficient" interface. The "Man from Mars" can use the easy and intuitive one. It is almost just as easy as installing Start8, in this case.
I promise, if I think the risk exists that a man from mars is going to want to use my computer, and I can't spend the time to explain swiping, I'll install Start8 for him.

Quote:
A UI should be intuitive: I had NO issues adapting to the Office Ribbon without a manual, and THAT was a big change.
And I'm still not used to the Office Ribbon and regularly go to the wrong places trying to find what I want.

Gee. People are different I guess.

Quote:
This debate is mostly going in circles. Do you have any fresh arguments to make?
A fresh comment. Nielsen says in his analysis (indeed dedicates an entire section to it) -

"One of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users is that the product's very name has become a misnomer. "Windows" no longer supports multiple windows on the screen. "

(my bolding)

This is completely and utterly false.

Is it incompetence on his part, or ignorance?

Does either help is credibility?
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 04:47 PM   #285
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
why? If your designing something that people are using every day, on multiple devices, shouldn't you be designing for them? Shouldn't you design for your audience?
The audience will be bound to include people who never used Windows 8 before.

I am NOT suggesting taking away multi-device functionality. All I was asking for was to RESTORE full functionality for desktop machines. Including the Start Button.

Though, even on a tablet the OS is a little weak. The Start screen doesn't support widgets. You only get 1.25 applications on screen at a time. I think Win8 could have done better for tablet devices. EVEN IF the swiping part works fine.

I would also like to remind you that:
Windows 7 does NOT have a severe "Man from Mars" issue. (Though, labeling the Start button would help.)
MacOS and iOS do NOT have "Man from Mars" issues.
Android does NOT seem to have any big "Man from Mars" issues, though some of it is kinda quirky.
Chrome OS does NOT have "Man from Mars" issues.
Ubuntu does NOT have "Man from Mars" issues (Though, some more labeling would help).

Windows 8 is the ONLY operating system where many of the "Martians" would be a loss, at least on a Desktop machine. Perhaps not as much on a Tablet.

I see that as a shortcoming.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Our new windows phone has no icon to indicate the app menu is found by swiping to the right.

I found it immediately.
The Windows Phone has a small screen, which grants it permission to not have as much on screen at once.

Also, the Phone has a touch interface. So, swiping makes sense in that context.
Desktop machines typically don't. Though even when they do have a touch screen, a lot of people are not prone to use it. Look up "Gorilla Arm" some time.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I promise, if I think the risk exists that a man from mars is going to want to use my computer, and I can't spend the time to explain swiping, I'll install Start8 for him.
Do you share your machines at conferences and conventions much?

I do. I find it rather amusing how many people "from Mars" I run into.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And I'm still not used to the Office Ribbon and regularly go to the wrong places trying to find what I want.

Gee. People are different I guess.
I do think Office 2007 should have included a "crutch mode" with the classic menus and toolbars, so I have some sympathy for you. But, at least there is MORE on screen at a time, instead of less. And, it is GREAT for those "Martians", too!
So, once you get used to it, you might find it advantageous.

Perhaps it might also pay to read up on some general principles of UI design. It is easy to see where they are going with this, once you do. Even if you don't, it is not like the whole thing is very foreign: It is just a wider toolbar.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
A fresh comment. Nielsen says in his analysis (indeed dedicates an entire section to it) -

"One of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users is that the product's very name has become a misnomer. "Windows" no longer supports multiple windows on the screen. "

(my bolding)

This is completely and utterly false.

Is it incompetence on his part, or ignorance?

Does either help is credibility?
I was hoping you would have a fresh argument for defending the design decisions in Windows 8. Instead, you are jumping on poor Nielsen again.

I am not here to defend Nielsen. My arguments against Windows 8 are my own, though it happens that they coincide with a lot of comments from experts, who can sometimes phrase these things better than I can.

But, it might be worth noting that he IS right, when it comes to one important thing: The Modern UI. And, if you have a Surface or other ARM-based tablet, that is mostly what you are stuck with: Up to 1.25 apps on screen at once.

Oh, there are a few exceptions: Microsoft Office (which is a fairly big exception), an alternative version of IE, and most of the older system utilities. But, it can hardly be called "Windows" anymore, in its principle tablet interface.


Unless you have some brilliant manner in which you can defend Microsoft's decision to rip out features from under the desktop users (with mice and keyboards), I think this debate is done. You have no case for upgrading PC machines. And, barely a thin one for using it on tablets or new touch-screen PCs.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 06:55 PM   #286
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
The audience will be bound to include people who never used Windows 8 before.
Right, and they'll stop being that as soon as they've used it.

Quote:
I am NOT suggesting taking away multi-device functionality. All I was asking for was to RESTORE full functionality for desktop machines. Including the Start Button.
So you want an inconsistent interface across devices in order to remind forgetful people how to get to the start menu.

Even though they don't seem to forget on tablets and phones.

Quote:
Though, even on a tablet the OS is a little weak. The Start screen doesn't support widgets.
And iOS doesn't support widgets and Android doesn't support live updates. So I guess they're all a little weak

Quote:
You only get 1.25 applications on screen at a time.
And in iOS you get 1, and in some varieties of android you get a kludge of a small number of apps that barely support it.

Quote:
The Windows Phone has a small screen, which grants it permission to not have as much on screen at once.
So inconsistent interfaces across devices are better than consistent interfaces, as long as you can put discoverability clues that are only needed for martians?

Quote:
Desktop machines typically don't.
Clearly you're not following CES 2013.

Quote:
Do you share your machines at conferences and conventions much?

I do. I find it rather amusing how many people "from Mars" I run into.
And they're need to get in to your printer settings and event logs? And you don't talk to them for even a minute or two? Interesting.

Quote:
I was hoping you would have a fresh argument for defending the design decisions in Windows 8.
I told you what the design decision is about - Microsoft Surface and similiar devices, and a consistent interface across different appliances.

Quote:
But, it might be worth noting that he IS right, when it comes to one important thing: The Modern UI. And, if you have a Surface or other ARM-based tablet, that is mostly what you are stuck with: Up to 1.25 apps on screen at once.
Which is better than the competition!

Quote:
You have no case for upgrading PC machines.
There's some performance benefits, but unless you've got other windows devices I don't think there is a case to upgrade PC machines, and I said so pages ago.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available

Last edited by icerat; 7th January 2013 at 06:56 PM.
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 09:03 PM   #287
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So you want an inconsistent interface across devices in order to remind forgetful people how to get to the start menu.
I want an interface that IS consistent with what is EXPECTED, innately and historically, for the devices one is using. This can be consistent across all of them, and still be world-class contenders amongst all of them.

It is not easy going up for a challenge like that, but Windows 8 would have done it, with a little more effort put into its design. But, no, they took the easy, cheesy, lazy way out.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And iOS doesn't support widgets and Android doesn't support live updates. So I guess they're all a little weak
I would say iOS is a little weak because it does not support widgets. Widgets give the user a chance to interact with various functions without opening up full applications. It is not an absolutely necessary feature, but if you are going to bring that into an OS, there is also no need to do it so half-assedly as live tiles.

If by "live updates", you mean the live tiles in the Win8 start menu: Android DOES support something like that. Though, it would have to be either a widget (social networks tend to do this) or a transforming program icon (e-mail apps generally use this).

And, you picked a fairly gaudy example: Live tiles, as they are in Win8, look too much like a hundred screaming children made of baby blocks. Not my particular taste in UI form.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And in iOS you get 1, and in some varieties of android you get a kludge of a small number of apps that barely support it.
Windows had a shot at bringing windowing to the tablet, and make it work well. They chose for Modern UI to work full screen instead.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So inconsistent interfaces across devices are better than consistent interfaces, as long as you can put discoverability clues that are only needed for martians?
First of all, it does NOT need to be inconsistent. One CAN take on the challenge of designing a consistent interface for all systems.

If anything, the OS would have to be MORE consistent: Windows would EITHER drop the traditional desktop, and add its expected features and functions to Modern UI; OR it would apply the ability to run the stateless Modern UI Apps on the Desktop. It would NOT need the dual, schizophrenic set of interfaces it currently has!!

Second of all, even if they had to keep the inconsistent duality of the interface for a while, having a "KVM Mode" with a Start Button is not, exactly, a big deal. The interface is going to be inconsistent, anyway, so why not add back the things that made desktop interfaces work best?!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Clearly you're not following CES 2013.
I am. But, I am also following computer usage niches were touch screens will not be so quickly and easily adopted, so soon. Like, for example, most business operations and government offices. And, a lot of older people's machines. None of those markets should be abandoned so flimsily.



Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And they're need to get in to your printer settings and event logs? And you don't talk to them for even a minute or two? Interesting.
Why, yes! Sometimes people DO need to print things from my machine. And, I do not carry my own printer around. We just borrow one from the hotel's business center, or something. Or, we run to FedEx Office/Kinko's if we need to.
Printers often work plug-n-play, nowadays. But, getting to Printer settings is sometimes needed, anyway.

And, yes, sometimes people DO need to peer into my event logs. The most common scenario is debugging ASP.NET applications that I am developing on the machine. Error messages from them pile up quite reliably in those logs, and sometimes other people would want to look at them.
If I have to show people how to get to the logs, I would feel like I am treating them like a baby. And, these are bright folks who do not like feeling like babies!

It is very exceedingly rare that the event logs are examined for the purposes of diagnosing problems with the actual machine, or its core software, these days. But, should the need arise: I want them to be easily and intuitively accessible. Like fire extinguishers or first aid kits. Perhaps not quite like that: I do NOT have the Event Viewer pinned to the taskbar (except on actual servers). But, it should still be fairly easy to get to!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I told you what the design decision is about - Microsoft Surface and similiar devices, and a consistent interface across different appliances.
That explains why the interface focuses on swiping.

That does NOT explain the need to punish existing KVM desktop machine users for favoring tablets.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Which is better than the competition!
The competition is gearing up to start supporting windowing on tablets better. Windows 8, with its 1.25 apps-at-a-time view, is going to be left behind!

Windows could have been there, first! (Well, close to it. The Razr docking station kinda got there already, at least.)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There's some performance benefits, but unless you've got other windows devices I don't think there is a case to upgrade PC machines, and I said so pages ago.
Okay. So the UI is not compelling enough for upgrading, in spite of how much quicker it works for you. Got it.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2013, 06:44 AM   #288
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
And, you picked a fairly gaudy example: Live tiles, as they are in Win8, look too much like a hundred screaming children made of baby blocks. Not my particular taste in UI form.
Yeah, I've seen the "screaming kids" metaphor from others. Live tiles are designed by app developers. If you want to install, and pin, a hundred screaming children to your start screen, that's your choice.

I don't, so I don't.

I've seen my share of gaudy android and iOs icones.

Terrible OS's!

Quote:
Windows had a shot at bringing windowing to the tablet, and make it work well. They chose for Modern UI to work full screen instead.
So I expect we'll se wowbaggerOS out sometime soon, since you clearly can do a better job?

I look forward to it.

Quote:
That does NOT explain the need to punish existing KVM desktop machine users for favoring tablets.
You seem to have missed something here. Windows 8 is a NEW operating system. It is not a compulsory Windows 7 service pack that people are being forced to download.

Really quite odd that you seem to think it is ....

Quote:
The competition is gearing up to start supporting windowing on tablets better. Windows 8, with its 1.25 apps-at-a-time view, is going to be left behind!
Yes, quite a shame how Microsoft has decided that Windows 8 is eternal perfection and they're never going to update or modify it again!

Quote:
Okay. So the UI is not compelling enough for upgrading, in spite of how much quicker it works for you. Got it.
For most people, no, there's no need to upgrade. Said it pages ago.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2013, 08:38 AM   #289
KoihimeNakamura
Creativity Murderer
 
KoihimeNakamura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III
Posts: 7,958
You can say something's wrong without needing to be able to do it yourself, you know.

It's almost as if that's a fallacy..

(In any case.)
__________________
Don't mind me.
KoihimeNakamura is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2013, 11:15 AM   #290
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Live tiles are designed by app developers.
Some of whom are Microsoft, themselves. But, there are more important things to say about the OS than it superficial aspects.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So I expect we'll se wowbaggerOS out sometime soon, since you clearly can do a better job?
For the general UI portion, I could probably describe and design a better UI than Windows 8, at least. It might take some time to fully develop a whole, real OS on my own, though.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Windows 8 is a NEW operating system.
NEW is NO excuse for BAD.

Let us pretend, for a moment, that it is not called "Windows". Let us even pretend, if you wish, that it did not come from Microsoft. Let us come up with a fictional name for it. How about:

Joe's Tableau OS.

Don't worry about where that name came from. I just made it up on the spot. Anyway, Joe's Tableau happens to look and work exactly like Windows 8, and is expected to run on the same sets of hardware.

That does not mean it is a good OS. There are several issues that would need to be ironed out:

First of all, the experience for desktop PCs is abysmal. There ought to be options for having some on-screen indicators for where to get things. People using mice are not automatically going to know to "swipe" from the sides, or right-click corners to get easier access to system utilities.

The on-screen options could be hidden way, once the machine is operating in touch-interface mode. But, they are there, to be shown again, if they are ever useful.
But, that is NOT the way Joe rolls. He really wants his Tableau to work best on tablet machines. (That could explain the word "Tableau") And, even though it is also supposed to work on desktop machines, he chose to screw them over in favor of an interface that is "more consistent". Except, of course, that it's not. Because, for some weird reason, Joe decided to give it two interfaces, anyway: A Desktop with a taskbar for some applications, and a full screen "Modern UI" for others.

Makes perfect sense in that context, doesn't it?

Then, there are other things Joe did with his Tableau that are puzzling:
* Why is there a separate Settings button for search results?
* Why does the OS fail to confirm when I delete a file?
* Why is there no persistent, on-screen clock; except on the Desktop which is hardly used by tablets?
* Why is there two different versions of Joe's Internet Explorer, that do not talk to each other?

(These MUST all be very wise decisions, because Joe spent billions of dollars building this thing!)

* Why must the Start page take up the whole screen, all the time? Can't I bring up a mini menu of my favorite applications, like other desktop operating systems?

* Why must I give my Facebook log in information to a Joe Account, before I can view FB photos in his Photos app? Seems like an weird, potential privacy invasion, to me! (Yes, this is app specific. But, it is a genuine issue.)

Joe's Tableau: A NEW Operating System Designed to be The Best for Every Device Imaginable! Woo-hoo.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2013, 03:12 PM   #291
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
First of all, the experience for desktop PCs is abysmal.
Why aren't I finding it abysmal?

Quote:
People using mice are not automatically going to know to "swipe" from the sides, or right-click corners to get easier access to system utilities.
They don't need to automatically know.

Quote:
But, that is NOT the way Joe rolls. He really wants his Tableau to work best on tablet machines. (That could explain the word "Tableau") And, even though it is also supposed to work on desktop machines, he chose to screw them over in favor of an interface that is "more consistent". Except, of course, that it's not. Because, for some weird reason, Joe decided to give it two interfaces, anyway: A Desktop with a taskbar for some applications, and a full screen "Modern UI" for others.

Makes perfect sense in that context, doesn't it?
Except again your hyperbole is getting the best of you. I've been using W8, in desktop mode, for months.

I don't feel at all "screwed over" and I like the very minor changes.

Quote:
* Why is there a separate Settings button for search results?
There are 3 different groups - Settings, Apps, and Files, which are all three different things. By separating them it's easier to sort through and find what you want, faster

Quote:
* Why does the OS fail to confirm when I delete a file?
It doesn't. I just tested it and it asked me.

Quote:
* Why is there no persistent, on-screen clock; except on the Desktop which is hardly used by tablets?
why is there no persistent, on-screen clock on my android phone?

And more importantly why is there a persistent on-screen clock on my android tablet? One of the most common questions I see on android forums is from people wondering how to get rid of the menu/clock bar on tablets.

Anyway, I have a clock on my start screen. Easily viewed with a swipe. I can run it in a sidebar if I really need to see it while working in a main app. I'm doing it right now. I switched Chrome from desktop to MUI, right in the middle of typing this post, and fixed my clock to the left sidebar.

Quote:
* Why is there two different versions of Joe's Internet Explorer, that do not talk to each other?
Didn't you say you weren't going to talk about apps? But yeah, that's dumb. Use chrome, you can switch seamlessly between the two. I assume it has to do with legacy support of flash etc on the desktop,

Quote:
* Why must the Start page take up the whole screen, all the time? Can't I bring up a mini menu of my favorite applications, like other desktop operating systems?
Start them up, swipe from left. Unless you power down completely, they'll be there.

Quote:
* Why must I give my Facebook log in information to a Joe Account, before I can view FB photos in his Photos app? Seems like an weird, potential privacy invasion, to me! (Yes, this is app specific. But, it is a genuine issue.)
What the heck is a "joe account"? You seem to be asking - why do I have to give my FB login account to view FB photos, which has a pretty obvious answer.

Use another app.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2013, 07:07 PM   #292
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Why aren't I finding it abysmal?
I don't know. Maybe the design appeals to a limited subset of possible users.

Maybe some people will just eat anything tossed at them, I guess.

It is NOT impossible for SOME people to absolutely and honestly LOVE the operating system. There's always someone who absolutely and honestly LOVES a lot of objectively bad things.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
They don't need to automatically know.
What?!!!!!

Didn't we go over this already?

What about the "Man from Mars"? The one who never used the OS before, and just wants to get things done, without having to learn how to use it, first?

You honestly, really, truly, deeply don't think this matters?!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Except again your hyperbole is getting the best of you. I've been using W8, in desktop mode, for months.

I don't feel at all "screwed over" and I like the very minor changes.
It is still a bad design, for reasons we already went over. Try coming up with something new and insightful to defend the OS.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There are 3 different groups - Settings, Apps, and Files, which are all three different things. By separating them it's easier to sort through and find what you want, faster
Actually, I beg to differ: It is CLEARLY faster when at least 2, if not all 3 of those, are in the same Search results page.

Windows 7 search is, in fact, faster to find what you are looking for no matter what "group" Windows 8 thinks they should be in.

Under Win8, you have to take an extra step to find "Settings", if you are in "Apps".
I would like "Settings" items to appear when I type them: NOT a "no results found" message, which is actually a lie.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It doesn't. I just tested it and it asked me.
There is a setting to turn prompting on. But, by default, it is off in most cases. I have tested it, and it does not offer a prompt in the default install I used.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
why is there no persistent, on-screen clock on my android phone?
There usually is. It is strange that yours does not have one. And, there is one on the iPad, too. And, on almost all portable devices you can name.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And more importantly why is there a persistent on-screen clock on my android tablet? One of the most common questions I see on android forums is from people wondering how to get rid of the menu/clock bar on tablets.
I suppose an option to get rid of them might be useful. But, most people like to know what time it is when they are looking at their devices. The clock is often the most glanced at feature.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Anyway, I have a clock on my start screen. Easily viewed with a swipe. I can run it in a sidebar if I really need to see it while working in a main app. I'm doing it right now. I switched Chrome from desktop to MUI, right in the middle of typing this post, and fixed my clock to the left sidebar.
What if you want music controls in the sidebar, instread? (Is that the Modern UI you are using? I thought you didn't use that.)

Why should an extra swipe be necessary, just to view a lousy clock?!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Didn't you say you weren't going to talk about apps? But yeah, that's dumb. Use chrome, you can switch seamlessly between the two. I assume it has to do with legacy support of flash etc on the desktop,
Internet browsing is considered an essential part of the OS experience, these days. So, while it might technically be an App, it is an especially important one.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Start them up, swipe from left. Unless you power down completely, they'll be there.
First of all, only Modern UI apps appear on the left. If we are using primarily desktop apps, that is not going to work.

Second of all, that is NOT a comprehensive menu of applications and settings. It is only running applications. And, some of them might not necessarily be favorite ones, all the time.

You are seriously suggesting that a task-list pane, with limited capabilities, is a good substitute for the Windows 7 Start Menu?!!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
What the heck is a "joe account"?
Equivalent to a Microsoft Account. In Windows 8, you must give Microsoft's servers your Facebook account log in information, in order to view Facebook photos in the Photos App. It does not connect to Facebook directly. It ONY connects through Microsoft Account, first, which goes into Facebook on your behalf.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You seem to be asking - why do I have to give my FB login account to view FB photos, which has a pretty obvious answer.

Use another app.
It's a pretty dumb thing to do, though.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 8th January 2013 at 07:10 PM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2013, 08:34 PM   #293
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Seems awfully silly not to have easy access to volume control from the Modern UI. They didn't even put volume control in the Music app's controls. Why do I have to go into Settings to do it?

Such a simple, simple, simple, thing. How can a company that spent a billion dollars developing this thing leave out such a simple, stupid, little thing?!
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 8th January 2013 at 08:39 PM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 05:53 AM   #294
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I don't know. Maybe the design appeals to a limited subset of possible users.
Or perhaps the design doesn't appeal to a limited subset of possible users.

Quote:
What about the "Man from Mars"? The one who never used the OS before, and just wants to get things done, without having to learn how to use it, first?
Right, so they should design the OS for people who are going to use it once, rather than optimise it for the mass of people using it regularly.

Here's the thing - there are no men from mars.

Quote:
Actually, I beg to differ: It is CLEARLY faster when at least 2, if not all 3 of those, are in the same Search results page.
Only if you have a small number of results.

Quote:
There is a setting to turn prompting on. But, by default, it is off in most cases. I have tested it, and it does not offer a prompt in the default install I used.
I've changed not setting on this. Are you deleting the file or merely moving it the recycling bin?

Quote:
There usually is. It is strange that yours does not have one. And, there is one on the iPad, too. And, on almost all portable devices you can name.
It varies depending on the app. It's unnecessary and takes up screen space.

Quote:
What if you want music controls in the sidebar, instread? (Is that the Modern UI you are using? I thought you didn't use that.)
I usually don't, just thought I'd try it out since you complain about it so much

Quote:
Why should an extra swipe be necessary, just to view a lousy clock?!
Why should a "lousy clock" be fixed to the screen unnecessarily?

Quote:
First of all, only Modern UI apps appear on the left. If we are using primarily desktop apps, that is not going to work.
If you're using primarily desktop apps, you've already got all your favourites pinned to the taskbar.

Quote:
It's a pretty dumb thing to do, though.
No idea, might have been technically simpler, might be marketing purposes. Doesn't bother me in the least.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 06:38 AM   #295
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
The more I read this back and forth, the less I want to try out Windows 8. I'm not looking for a "desktop experience", I want easy, quick access to my files, programs, and settings.

I hesitated switching from XP to Vista. When they finally came around with Win7, found that it resolved all of the issues that I had with Vista, and now I'm running it on my laptop and my desktop.

I'm not interested in a touch interface for my laptop or desktop. For me it's an ease of use thing, and a convenience factor. I have the commonly-used apps pinned to my Start menu, and I've customized my taskbar to display what -I- feel to be the most pertinent information. Sure, there are some improvements that can be made, but if I need to change a setting, it's only two clicks away.

Then again I support computers for a living, it's my bread and butter. At my organization, we're barely making the switch to Win7 now. I doubt we would ever migrate to Windows 8. Sure, some users make use of tablets for -some- activities, but the learning curve for a my clients would be nearly impossible to overcome with any sense of ease.

At some point I may try Windows 8 on a dummy machine, but based on what I've read, it's a poorly-implemented idea that is doomed to be another ME and Vista.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 09:00 AM   #296
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Or perhaps the design doesn't appeal to a limited subset of possible users.
There are three groups of desktop/KVM users:

Those who love Windows 8 right away, and get right into everything it does, even with only a keyboard and mouse. This is probably the smallest group.

Those who install Windows 8, find it difficult to use, at first, but just let it go, and learn to live with it. Eventually it might grow on them. This is probably a larger group. But, this indicates the system has more in common with Stockholm Syndrome than any actual improvements to the OS.

Those who find Windows 8 to be rather puzzling. Many of them do figure out how to use it, but they ache for the day they can go back to a better desktop/KVM experience. Many of them are installing Start8 to do that. I am willing to bet this might be the largest group of users.

I do not have any formal data on this, yet. But, are you willing to take this bet? Together we can find an independent source of usability surveys, that we can mutually agree are accurate, and see what they have to say on the matter.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Right, so they should design the OS for people who are going to use it once, rather than optimise it for the mass of people using it regularly.
That is what most other operating systems do. At least for its core features.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Here's the thing - there are no men from mars.
Well, I did NOT mean that literally! Sheesh!


ALMOST EVERYONE who approaches Windows 8, for the first time, is effectively "from Mars". As you point out, they must LEARN how to use the system, EVEN IF they used Windows before.

Don't tell me there are no "men from Mars"! YOU were one of them, yourself!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Only if you have a small number of results.
Which happens most of the time.

When I type "printer" I get a small number of results. When I type "event" I get a small number of results. When I type "cmd" I get a small number of results. When I type "regedit" I get a small number of results. When I type "mouse" I get a small number of results. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Granted: If I only type one letter, say "a", yes that brings up a LOT of results. But, it is worth noting two things:
1. It is rare for someone to do a search that is that vague.
2. Even in this case it would be easier, for most people, to find what they are looking for on one screen, rather than having to click through three or more of them, if you did not know which category it was in.

The way Search was designed in Windows 8 is, in fact, flawed.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I've changed not setting on this. Are you deleting the file or merely moving it the recycling bin?
Both.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It varies depending on the app. It's unnecessary and takes up screen space.
Some Apps are full-screen, such as most games. The clock is still considered "persistent" if it stays up on the home screen and most of the apps and features.

For some people it might not be necessary. Perhaps there could be an option to take it off.

But, in Windows 8, there is NO option to even put one on! Not even if you want one! And, persistent clocks are one of the most glanced at features on a mobile device, for most people. Seems like a silly thing to leave out.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
If you're using primarily desktop apps, you've already got all your favourites pinned to the taskbar.
I use a LOT of applications. Some of them less frequently than others. And, often a bunch of system settings, too. My taskbar would be overloaded with icons, if I had to put all of those things on there. The Windows 7 Start Menu is much more organized.

The Windows 7 Start Menu was designed with desktop/KVM users in mind, but it can be augmented for other types of devices.
Windows 8 was designed to force people to use an interface much more appropriate for tablet/touch-screen devices, even if they are not using such a thing. (And, even then, it is kinda limited in scope.)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No idea, might have been technically simpler, might be marketing purposes. Doesn't bother me in the least.
There is no technical reason why it needed to be done that way, I can assure you. Every other OS on the market has a Photos app that can log directly into Facebook, without going through a third party, first.

If it is for marketing purposes, it seems awfully shady.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 10:26 AM   #297
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
The more I read this back and forth, the less I want to try out Windows 8. I'm not looking for a "desktop experience", I want easy, quick access to my files, programs, and settings.

I hesitated switching from XP to Vista. When they finally came around with Win7, found that it resolved all of the issues that I had with Vista, and now I'm running it on my laptop and my desktop.

I'm not interested in a touch interface for my laptop or desktop. For me it's an ease of use thing, and a convenience factor. I have the commonly-used apps pinned to my Start menu, and I've customized my taskbar to display what -I- feel to be the most pertinent information. Sure, there are some improvements that can be made, but if I need to change a setting, it's only two clicks away.

Then again I support computers for a living, it's my bread and butter. At my organization, we're barely making the switch to Win7 now. I doubt we would ever migrate to Windows 8. Sure, some users make use of tablets for -some- activities, but the learning curve for a my clients would be nearly impossible to overcome with any sense of ease.

At some point I may try Windows 8 on a dummy machine, but based on what I've read, it's a poorly-implemented idea that is doomed to be another ME and Vista.

I'm running Windows 8 on a virtual machine and I really don't see any advantage to 7, to be honest. Sure, concerning the old start menu I was able to add one via the classicShell freeware, but then it looks like an ugly version of Windows 7.

What's the advantage here anyway?

Not to mention that I wouldn't want to use Microsoft on a tablet. Or use my main system via "touch". After all, control of the system at hand means everything to me. So I hate whenever I'm forced to have to search for file-/system options or being forced to be degraded to a *********** noob's user interface.
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 02:12 PM   #298
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I do not have any formal data on this, yet.
You missed what I think is the largest group by far. People who install it, find it's much the same as Windows 7 with a few minor differences, and get used to it pretty much immediately and then slowly discover other features that makes them appreciate it more.

Quote:
That is what most other operating systems do. At least for its core features.
Well clearly I'm an idiot then. Because every single operating system I have used in the last 30+ years has had features I did not know about or could not find immediately.

Quote:
Well, I did NOT mean that literally! Sheesh!
Neither did I. I'll rephrase.

There are no new people that have never used windows

(ok, there is, but there's not many in the west)

Quote:
ALMOST EVERYONE who approaches Windows 8, for the first time, is effectively "from Mars".
No they're not. They're from across the street.

Quote:
When I type "printer" I get a small number of results. When I type "event" I get a small number of results. When I type "cmd" I get a small number of results. When I type "regedit" I get a small number of results. When I type "mouse" I get a small number of results. Etc. Etc. Etc.
In windows 8 you wouldn't spend so much time typing. I type "e" and the list is fairly long, I type "ev" and it's down to two, so I click on event viewer.

Quote:
Granted: If I only type one letter, say "a", yes that brings up a LOT of results. But, it is worth noting two things:
1. It is rare for someone to do a search that is that vague.
Really? People search for "event" without typing "e" first?

Quote:
The way Search was designed in Windows 8 is, in fact, flawed.
Let me see, I've been using windows 8 for probably 8 months now, at least. I have no problem at all using search, and haven't from day one.

How much have you used it for?

Quote:
But, in Windows 8, there is NO option to even put one on! Not even if you want one! And, persistent clocks are one of the most glanced at features on a mobile device, for most people.
Yes, and most the time it's on the home screen. I've just been playing angry birds on my android phone, sorry, no persistent clock!

Right now I have Kindle reader open on my Samsung tablet. No persistent clock!

Quote:
I use a LOT of applications. Some of them less frequently than others. And, often a bunch of system settings, too. My taskbar would be overloaded with icons, if I had to put all of those things on there. The Windows 7 Start Menu is much more organized.
And the Windows 8 start screen is even more organized.

Seriously, how long have you used Windows 8 for?
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 02:15 PM   #299
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
The more I read this back and forth, the less I want to try out Windows 8. I'm not looking for a "desktop experience", I want easy, quick access to my files, programs, and settings.
The desktop is pretty much exactly the same as Windows 7, which simultaneously means that if that's what you'll primarily use, there's no need to upgrade, but on the other hand, there's no need to be scared of Windows 8 either.

Quote:
I have the commonly-used apps pinned to my Start menu, and I've customized my taskbar to display what -I- feel to be the most pertinent information. Sure, there are some improvements that can be made, but if I need to change a setting, it's only two clicks away.
No different in Windows 8.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 07:15 PM   #300
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The desktop is pretty much exactly the same as Windows 7
Except that access to different things is in different places: Applications one place, system utilities in another (which is harder to get to), search in yet another, and basic settings in another. Etc.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You missed what I think is the largest group by far. People who install it, find it's much the same as Windows 7 with a few minor differences, and get used to it pretty much immediately and then slowly discover other features that makes them appreciate it more.
That is roughly equivalent to my second group. Those "few minor difference" you speak of equate to "difficulty in usage", for all practical purposes. Even if the difficulty is minor and temporary for some people. It might be worse for more of them.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Well clearly I'm an idiot then. Because every single operating system I have used in the last 30+ years has had features I did not know about or could not find immediately.
You said it. Not me.

But I disagree with you. You are not an idiot. Just a different type of user.

When some people approach a new operating system, they are willing to read up on instructions first, before exploring its features. Or, in some cases, after trying to use its features for a short while.

Then there are those who just want to get into the operating system, and get things done, without reading a manual first. If they have to read a manual, they would rather use a different system.

I happen to have a vast history of using a wide variety of operating systems, for all sorts of computers and devices, since the mid-1980s. This includes the recent history tablets and smart phones and such. Why should someone like me need to read a manual to use basic features in an operating system, anymore?!
Maybe if the OS was a command prompt, like DOS or Linux without a visual shell: A command reference might be useful, at least. But, if I am expected to point and click my way around, it ought to be fast, easy, and intuitive to do just that. And Windows 8 is not such a system.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There are no new people that have never used windows
You had to learn how to use Windows 8, yourself.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
In windows 8 you wouldn't spend so much time typing. I type "e" and the list is fairly long, I type "ev" and it's down to two, so I click on event viewer.
In Windows 7, I can ALSO type "ev" and it comes up. Except, I don't have to click a "Settings" category button, first.

And, more importantly, I am not staring at a screen that says "no results found", even though there were actually results found.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Really? People search for "event" without typing "e" first?
I don't think many people search for only one letter. Two usually brings the results down to a meaningful pile, as noted above, with "ev". There is NO "lots of results" you imply, as a reason to divide things up.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Let me see, I've been using windows 8 for probably 8 months now, at least. I have no problem at all using search, and haven't from day one.
I do not, technically, have a problem using Search either.

My point is that it is still a flawed design. It is flawed for reasons I already went over a bunch of times.

Reasons that are objective. Not mere opinion.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I've just been playing angry birds on my android phone, sorry, no persistent clock!
Don't be smart with me. You know what I mean.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Right now I have Kindle reader open on my Samsung tablet. No persistent clock!
A least the new models of Kindles have persistent clocks. Though, they can be turned off when in book reading mode, I think.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And the Windows 8 start screen is even more organized.
By default, is only shows prominent applications, which are mostly Modern UI apps.

System utilities, you have to get some place else, until you pin them. (But, why should I need to pin them?!)

Documents another place. Search is in another spot. Etc.

Windows 7 has all those things packaged in one neat location.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 9th January 2013 at 07:21 PM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 02:38 AM   #301
El Greco
Summer worshipper
 
El Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 17,175
If we follow the alternating pattern:

Windows 95 - bad
Windows 98 - good
Windows Me - bad
Windows XP - good
Windows Vista - bad
Windows 7 - good

then we have:

Windows 8 - bad

I don't know, maybe in Microsoft they have found some formula where they sell more if they alternate good and bad releases. After all they are not afraid that people may choose something other than Windows.
__________________
"Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht

El Greco is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 03:15 AM   #302
Mijin
Thinker
 
Mijin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 167
I'm basically a fan of Windows 8. I appreciate what MS is trying to do and for once they seem slightly ahead of the curve. I can see a time approaching, quickly, where people will expect every screen to respond to touch input and will be surprised to find one that does not.
However, that doesn't mean that in all contexts touch will be primary.
On desktops keyboard and mouse are going to remain primary for the foreseeable future, and Win8 is just not oriented for this environment.

I'm going to also be controversial and say that I don't think the difference between vista and Win7 was all that big. Vista introduced a new driver model that broke lots of devices, then by the time of Win7 many manufacturers had released new drivers so compatibility was much improved. But it was the same driver model.
And permissions are ********** in both versions IMO.
Mijin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 05:35 AM   #303
Marcus
Illuminator
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,781
I've had my new desktop (with Windows 8) now for 2 days now so I'll chime in.

It does take a little getting used to, but the info on using it is not exactly secret, there is a "using Windows 8" tile right on the start screen.

I was reserving the option of getting Start8 , it was this thread that convinced me to go ahead and get a Win8 machine when I learned this option was available.

I think I'll keep using Win8 though, the pros outweigh the cons once you get used to it.
Marcus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 06:51 AM   #304
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
Our IT people say they cannot manage to make Windows-8 work with most of what we need it to work with.
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 06:56 AM   #305
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post

I think I'll keep using Win8 though, the pros outweigh the cons once you get used to it.
So what would you say are the pros then?
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 07:10 AM   #306
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Our IT people say they cannot manage to make Windows-8 work with most of what we need it to work with.
That is no surprise we tesd a lot of our companys legacy apps with Win 8, 25% do not work, another 25% work after a fashion but nto fully,50% do.
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 08:27 AM   #307
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
Windows 95 - bad
Windows 98 - good
Windows Me - bad
Windows XP - good
Windows Vista - bad
Windows 7 - good
Windows 8 - bad
That's not quite how I see it. Windows 95 was, in general, a very good OS. It had some wonky bits in there, since plug-and-play was a new concept, and the Internet was barely a thing, yet. And, configuration was sometimes difficult, because some devices still had to rely on DOS drivers. Etc.

But, the OS itself was largely a huge improvement over Windows 3.1. And, in many respects better than the Mac, at the time.

Windows 98 was a mild improvement over 95. So, both are good.

You left Windows 2000 off the list, I assume because you were focused on home users. But, it is worth mentioning that it is largely considered Microsoft's BEST Operating System, ever.
(Windows NT 4.0 was largely an improvement over 3.5, for whatever that's worth, but not considered "that great", for various reasons.)

Windows Me was kinda bad. And unnecessary. Seemed like a desperate stop-gap until Windows XP could be perfected.

Windows XP, being an upgrade of Win2K rather than Me, was a good OS. It stuck around a looong time, and many people are STILL using it!

Windows Vista was bad, in a few respects. File performance was at a bit of a low ebb, with that one, among other things. And, the UI started getting inconsistent.

Windows 7 brought some sanity back to the system. So, it was good.

Windows 8 could have been somebody. It could have been a contender.

In summary:

Windows 3.1 - cute, but bad
Windows 95 - good
Windows NT 4.0 - meh
Windows 98 - good
Windows 2000 - good
Windows Me - bad
Windows XP - good
Windows Vista - bad
Windows 7 - good
Windows 8 - bad and ugly
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 08:34 AM   #308
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,395
Yeah Window 95 was good. At the time.

Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 10th January 2013 at 08:37 AM.
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 09:05 AM   #309
Marcus
Illuminator
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,781
Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
So what would you say are the pros then?
The live tiles are very useful, especially the weather tile. The local weather is displayed all the time, and I can get a forecast for any of the cities I travel to(I added them to a favorites list) with one click. News headlines are displayed in other tiles, if it's something I'm interested in I can go there.

I didn't like everything being hidden at first, but now that I know where everything is, I am just enjoying the feel of the system. For example, while I'm typing this, I can hover the cursor and get a window to pop up of another app I'm running .
Marcus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 09:20 AM   #310
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The live tiles are very useful, especially the weather tile. The local weather is displayed all the time, and I can get a forecast for any of the cities I travel to(I added them to a favorites list) with one click. News headlines are displayed in other tiles, if it's something I'm interested in I can go there.

I didn't like everything being hidden at first, but now that I know where everything is, I am just enjoying the feel of the system. For example, while I'm typing this, I can hover the cursor and get a window to pop up of another app I'm running .
well I can get live weather with the widget I am using in Win 7, though with widgets there turned out to be a woeful lack of more widgets for Win7.

I can also see a small live pop up of any prog in WIn 7 by hovering my cursor or maximising with a click.

So glad you are enjoying it but I see no compelling advantage to use it yet.

Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 10th January 2013 at 09:21 AM.
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 10:20 AM   #311
Marcus
Illuminator
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,781
Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
well I can get live weather with the widget I am using in Win 7, though with widgets there turned out to be a woeful lack of more widgets for Win7.

I can also see a small live pop up of any prog in WIn 7 by hovering my cursor or maximising with a click.

So glad you are enjoying it but I see no compelling advantage to use it yet.
I've never used Win 7, I came straight from xp pro, which explains why I needed a new computer, it was an antique.

For me it was a question of whether to buy a slightly older model that came with Win 7 , or put Start8 on this one, and so far I don't see an advantage in either.
Marcus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 11:14 AM   #312
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I've never used Win 7, I came straight from xp pro, which explains why I needed a new computer, it was an antique.

For me it was a question of whether to buy a slightly older model that came with Win 7 , or put Start8 on this one, and so far I don't see an advantage in either.
Yeah, since you made a double leapfrog your good experience may be more to do with also having the advantages of Win 7 , so the pros may well outnumber the cons compared to XP. Xp was overall, a damn good OS and so is WIn7
Though I like many held out and waited til Win7 from XP specially given the bad reception of Vista. Also didn't disparately need to replace my PC at the time.

I think a question for Win 9 is this:
Will it go boldy more down the road of Win 8 , if enough MS apps and touch can be supported and produced by third parties (but as I said, widgets didn't go anyway on PCs)
or will MS have to make concessions and return to a more PC/touch/phone divide and lick it's wounds. Will it be a home PC and corporate niche producer ( albeit still a pretty big niche)
Is this a fight that it cannot afford to lose?
-
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 11:44 AM   #313
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Except that access to different things is in different places: Applications one place, system utilities in another (which is harder to get to), search in yet another, and basic settings in another. Etc.
No they're not, they're all available from the start screen, or explorer, or you can pin them to your taskbase, just like windows 7. The biggest differnence is the very handy right click system windows, which contrary to your claims, makes things much easier to get in to.

Yeah, I know, you give your laptop to strangers visiting from mars and you think they should be able to easily find all your system settings.

Good grief.

Some settings are in a different place (the MUI settings screen), and I agree that's inconsistent, but that and accessing the charm bar on a multi-screen setup is about is my only criticisms. Oh - and things like video/music/pic apps defaulting to the MUI versions. Easily changed the first time you run them, but I think it would be better if they'd asked.

Quote:
Then there are those who just want to get into the operating system, and get things done, without reading a manual first.
Which is what I did. I still haven't read a manual. Picked up a few tips from some websites.

Guess perhaps I'm not an idiot then - since I've managed my way around windows 8 just fine. I'm not from mars either, which helps.

Quote:
I don't think many people search for only one letter. Two usually brings the results down to a meaningful pile, as noted above, with "ev". There is NO "lots of results" you imply, as a reason to divide things up.
I notice you haven't answered my questioned about how much you've used windows 8. Have you used it at all?

If you're going to type "ev" you have to type "e" first (well, unless you cut and paste), that gives you, instantly, a search for "e" as you type the "v" and narrow it down.

Quote:
Reasons that are objective. Not mere opinion.
mmmm .... because you and others who agree with you say so.

Quote:
By default, is only shows prominent applications, which are mostly Modern UI apps.
So set it how you want!

Quote:
System utilities, you have to get some place else, until you pin them. (But, why should I need to pin them?!)
Seriously, how many people regularly need the system utilities? You don't need to pin them, and there very easy to find - so where's the problem?

Microsoft is supposed to some how miraculously read people's minds and work out what you want pinned at the beginning after a fresh install?

Quote:
Documents another place. Search is in another spot. Etc.

Windows 7 has all those things packaged in one neat location.
So do windows 8. Same explorer, but with the ribbon interface you praise.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 12:58 PM   #314
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
I'm basically a fan of Windows 8. I appreciate what MS is trying to do and for once they seem slightly ahead of the curve...
I see it exactly the opposite. MS blew it with mobile big time. Win8 impresses me as a frantic (and ill conceived) attempt to play catchup.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 01:30 PM   #315
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
I'm going to also be controversial and say that I don't think the difference between vista and Win7 was all that big.
The problem with Vista is that it's a bloated pig and a half. You could learn to speak Basque in the time it takes to boot, or shut down for that matter.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 02:03 PM   #316
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
 
Charlie Wilkes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,177
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I see it exactly the opposite. MS blew it with mobile big time. Win8 impresses me as a frantic (and ill conceived) attempt to play catchup.
I agree.

I remember how MS missed the Internet completely... and then, a couple of years later, their story line was that Internet Explorer was so integral to Windows that they had no choice but to put Netscape out of business.

Now they are frantically trying to catch up with a shift to touch screen environments, by putting a touch screen interface on computers that don't have touch screens.

Presumably they reason that hardware companies will have no choice but to manufacture laptops with touch screens, which means laptop users will become accustomed to the Windows touch screen interface, and they will want the same, familiar interface on their phones and tablets.

As always, MS seeks competitive advantage by leveraging their sheer size to manipulate an entire industry, while contributing little if any intrinsic value.
Charlie Wilkes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 03:48 PM   #317
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,302
A funny thing is that some of the UI changes were things that I always wanted (e.g. the "flat", detailed 2D vs 3D eye-candy). But I actually seem to quite hate the design. Either the subtle 3D cues are helpful or I have become too accustomed to them.

No, I must protect my ideology from the real world! This was just a bad implementation of it. I'm sure.
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 04:13 PM   #318
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I see it exactly the opposite. MS blew it with mobile big time. Win8 impresses me as a frantic (and ill conceived) attempt to play catchup.
Windows 7.5 and 8 mobile are brilliant. Their biggest mistake there, apart from being way too late to market, is having the launches too close together and 7.5 not upgradeable to 8, so lots of people didn't buy while waiting.

Claiming Windows 8 as an attempt to play catchup is ridiculous, since afaik they're the only ones trying to do what W8 is trying to achieve.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 05:36 PM   #319
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No they're not, they're all available from the start screen, or explorer, or you can pin them to your taskbase, just like windows 7. The biggest differnence is the very handy right click system windows, which contrary to your claims, makes things much easier to get in to.
I can draw diagrams, if you wish but, in Windows 8:

Programs: Left-Click the bottom left corner. All Programs: Right click on the Start Screen and click button on the lower right corner.

System Utilities: Some of them: Right-Click (instead of left-click) on the bottom left corner. Others: Find under Settings in the Charms Bar. Not there, either: Search for it, but don't forget to click the Settings category button.

Search: Right side of screen has an icon, when hover in the right spot.

Open applications: Left screen has SOME of them. Others are on the taskbar on the bottom.

Documents: You can search for them. If you want to see the folders, you have to go into Explorer.

Help and Support: It is under settings, for some reason, on the right side of the screen. Help is near the top of it.

Power Options: Also under settings, on the right side of the screen. Power is near the bottom of it.

In Windows 7:

Programs: Click Start in the lower left corner. All Programs: Click All Programs in that same corner menu. Programs stay to the left of that menu.

System Utilities: Almost all of them: Click Start in the lower left corner. More can be found in Search, also on the same left corner.

Search: Click Start in the lower left corner.

Documents: Click Start in the lower left corner.

Open Applications: Taskbar on bottom of the screen, starting near the lower left corner.

Help and Support: Click Start in the lower left corner.

Power Options: Click Start in the lower left corner.

Noticing a pattern, here?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yeah, I know, you give your laptop to strangers visiting from mars and you think they should be able to easily find all your system settings.
For someone who worked in software, you are acting an awful lot like this is a strange thing.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Which is what I did. I still haven't read a manual. Picked up a few tips from some websites.
I did not need website tips for any other OS I have worked with.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I notice you haven't answered my questioned about how much you've used windows 8. Have you used it at all?
I have Windows 8 Pro installed in a virtual machine, on my main desktop at home. I practice using it, sometimes even for serious work, every now and then. But, most of the time, I am use the Windows 7 host OS.

My Tablet PC, which is also used a lot, is Windows 7 based. I do not have Win8 on it.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
If you're going to type "ev" you have to type "e" first (well, unless you cut and paste), that gives you, instantly, a search for "e" as you type the "v" and narrow it down.
Yeah, so?

Your argument for keeping Settings and Apps separate in Search was in case you got "lots of results". My counter-point was two-fold:
1. A search for two or letters will not yield "lots of results", so no point in keeping separate categories for that reason. This is, in fact, what people do most of the time.
2. A search for only one letter (which I don't think anyone really does) would probably yield lots of results. But, this is true inside any of the categories. So, there is no reason to keep them separate for that reason.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
mmmm .... because you and others who agree with you say so.
No, because knowledge gained in the fields of practical psychology have demonstrated so, over time.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So set it how you want!
Even for BASIC operating system features, that are not Apps?!

Sure, I have customized a few things in the OS: Put favorite applications in prominent places, and such. But, for Windows 8, I have to do that even for basic things. Then, I have to duplicate that effort on every machine I use.

With Windows 7 I can get straight to work on them, even before I had time to set every shortcut icon up how I wanted it.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Microsoft is supposed to some how miraculously read people's minds and work out what you want pinned at the beginning after a fresh install?
They did NOT need to be pinned in Windows 7. Microsoft miraculously developed a UI that offered easy, nearly-one-stop access to features no matter what kind of user you were. But, apparently, that was too good for people. So, they decided to sprinkle different things around in different places, in the next OS.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 07:22 PM   #320
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,764
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Noticing a pattern, here?
Yup, you haven't used Windows 8.

Quote:
For someone who worked in software, you are acting an awful lot like this is a strange thing.
It is.

Quote:
I did not need website tips for any other OS I have worked with.
I didn't need them here either, but they revealed some useful features. Think how many things you've missed out on in other OS!

Quote:
I have Windows 8 Pro installed in a virtual machine, on my main desktop at home. I practice using it, sometimes even for serious work, every now and then.
Your descriptions of tasks above would indicate otherwise, unless you're deliberately trying to make things harder than they are.

Quote:
Even for BASIC operating system features, that are not Apps?!
Like what?

Quote:
With Windows 7 I can get straight to work on them, even before I had time to set every shortcut icon up how I wanted it.
As I did on Windows 8. After 8 months I still haven't customised my start screen because I barely use it, it's rarely needed.

Quote:
They did NOT need to be pinned in Windows 7.
They don't need to be pinned on windows 8 either, but just like windows 7 it makes them a lot quicker and easier to access.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:13 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.