Allied defections in WW2

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by SimonD

I agree and I am not trying to defend Nazism. I just think that it is too easy to say that everyone who fought for Germany was evil and everyone who fought for the Allies was good. On both sides, some people fought because they were believers, some for adventures, others to feed their families and some just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That's true. But if your country has been invaded, and is being cruelly oppressed and mercilessly plundered by enemy occupiers, only a complete scoundrel would volunteer to join the armed forces of these enemies.

[Korren]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

[color="Navy"]Late SS Divisions from Allied Nationalities
34th SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division "Landstorm Nederland" ( Dutch)
33rd SS Waffen Grenadier Division "Charlemange" (French)
31st SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division (Czech & Dutch)
30th SS Waffen Grenadier Division (Russian)
29th SS Waffen Grenadier Division (Italian post fall of Italy)
28th SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division "Wallonien" (French speaking Belgiums)
27th SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division "Langmarck" (Flemish)
23rd Friewilligen Panzergrenadie Division "Nederland" (Dutch)

What about 5th SS-Panzer Division "Wiking"?

ETA: Never mind. I see it's been answered above. My bad.

[SimonD]

Originally Posted by Craig B

That's true. But if your country has been invaded, and is being cruelly oppressed and mercilessly plundered by enemy occupiers, only a complete scoundrel would volunteer to join the armed forces of these enemies.

Or you could be a teenage boy looking for an adventure caught up in the events of the day.

If anyone is interested in reading about one such account, I would recommend 'The forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer (I accept that there are some critism of his account, especially around the description of the uniform that he wore)

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...gotten_Soldier

There are also accounts of Jews joining the SS just to survive. It isn't as black and white as we would like it to be, especially in times of war.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by SimonD

Or you could be a teenage boy looking for an adventure caught up in the events of the day.

So serve in the Resistance.

Also I don't know what to make of a Jew joining the SS "in order to survive". Suppose he was called upon to murder civilians, Jews or others, in the same way that his fellow Jews were being murdered. Should he "survive" at that cost? We know that some Jews, in order to survive, served as Ghetto police, or even in extermination camps. But such Jews are not highly regarded by the surviving victims of the Holocaust, to the best of my knowledge.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

There were a large number of western Europeans who joined with the Germans:

The Waffen SS had a large number of foreign units from the miniscule British one (if memory serves it never got bigger than about 50 or so pers), along with French, Flemish, Walloon, and Scandinavian "divisions" (not sure if they really got to divisional size, but that's what they were called), but the German army also got into the act with foreign units (same nationalities, plus Spanish, and from POWs even Indian).

There was also a Danish corps (Frikorps Danmark). Most were sent to the Eastern front.

Hans

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by Craig B

Better to say, there were two movements of French people. The quisling Petain regime you describe, and the Free French, who organised themselves to fight after the capitulation of their government. The second of these movements provided the Resistance internally within France. Within a few hundred metres of the place where I write this, in central Italy, there is a monument to over a hundred French soldiers who died taking the highest local hill from the Germans in 1943. And a huge French military cemetery is within 8 km of this location.

The USA recognised the Petain regime, and had diplomatic relations with it. See wiki list of US ambassadors to France.

I saw you quisling there. I prefer a prune Danish.

[SimonD]

Originally Posted by Craig B

So serve in the Resistance.

The Germans paid better and they were winning the war (at the time). Still, I get what you are saying. My parents are Irish and I was always being told stories about 'traitors' who took the soup and changed their names, dropping the Mc or O' during the famine or who fought for the British. My fathers uncle fought with I.R.A in 1916 and his brother joined the British army and served in Mayalasia. I asked him how he could have joined 'the enemy'. His response, 'I wanted to drive trucks and see the world'

Originally Posted by Craig B

Also I don't know what to make of a Jew joining the SS "in order to survive". Suppose he was called upon to murder civilians, Jews or others, in the same way that his fellow Jews were being murdered. Should he "survive" at that cost? We know that some Jews, in order to survive, served as Ghetto police, or even in extermination camps. But such Jews are not highly regarded by the surviving victims of the Holocaust, to the best of my knowledge.

It is very easy for us with full bellies safely in our houses to say what we would or won't do. I have a son and there isn't much I wouldn't do for him. Having said that, part of bringing up a child is about showing them what we think is right and standing by those

[KDLarsen]

Originally Posted by Craig B

That's true. But if your country has been invaded, and is being cruelly oppressed and mercilessly plundered by enemy occupiers, only a complete scoundrel would volunteer to join the armed forces of these enemies.

I'd have to look it up, but a study in the 90's found that a good number of the Danes who volunteered to fight for the Germans came from the German minority in Southern Denmark / Schleswig. They had been Germans prior to the Plebiscites of 1920 which returned the area to Denmark, and thus there was an expectation within that community that the young men should go and fight for Germany.

Added to that, following the invasion of the Soviet Union, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot joined simply to fight the Communists.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by MG1962

I was watching an episode of the old Rat Patrol in which a high ranking British officer defects to the Germans.

That got me thinking. Does anyone recall any western allied officers that defected to the German or even Japanese side during the war?

Good question.

I cannot think of any Western Allied officers who defected to the Axis during World War II.

So about the closest thing that I can think of is the American poet Ezra Pound who did a number of radio broadcasts and political writings in support of Hitler and Mussolini during World War II while he was living in Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound

While Pound was quite brilliant in his own way, however he was rather deluded as well, and he did eventually come to greatly regret his extremely stupid support of Facism and anti-Jewish rants.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by SimonD

The Germans paid better and they were winning the war (at the time). Still, I get what you are saying. My parents are Irish and I was always being told stories about 'traitors' who took the soup and changed their names, dropping the Mc or O' during the famine or who fought for the British. My fathers uncle fought with I.R.A in 1916 and his brother joined the British army and served in Mayalasia. I asked him how he could have joined 'the enemy'. His response, 'I wanted to drive trucks and see the world.

But what we're discussing at the moment would be like joining the Black and Tans in 1920. In fact, much worse, as the SS behaved much more atrociously even than that gang of rascals.

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

I'd have to look it up, but a study in the 90's found that a good number of the Danes who volunteered to fight for the Germans came from the German minority in Southern Denmark / Schleswig. They had been Germans prior to the Plebiscites of 1920 which returned the area to Denmark, and thus there was an expectation within that community that the young men should go and fight for Germany.

Added to that, following the invasion of the Soviet Union, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot joined simply to fight the Communists.

Ah, the Schleswig issue raises its head again.

Quote:

The British statesman Lord Palmerston is reported to have said:

Quote:

Only three people...have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlesw...stein_Question Our present prince consort might understand it as well, since his original name was Philip Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, but perhaps he doesn't.

But yes, I think it's probable that a few ethnic Germans from that region were attracted to the SS. As to fighting the communists, I imagine that was a common motive. Unfortunately the SS didn't distinguish between communists and other "sub human" residents of the Soviet Union, but indiscriminately murdered and exploited all of them.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by SimonD

The Germans paid better and they were winning the war (at the time). Still, I get what you are saying. My parents are Irish and I was always being told stories about 'traitors' who took the soup and changed their names, dropping the Mc or O' during the famine or who fought for the British. My fathers uncle fought with I.R.A in 1916 and his brother joined the British army and served in Mayalasia. I asked him how he could have joined 'the enemy'. His response, 'I wanted to drive trucks and see the world'



It is very easy for us with full bellies safely in our houses to say what we would or won't do. I have a son and there isn't much I wouldn't do for him. Having said that, part of bringing up a child is about showing them what we think is right and standing by those

Irish Citizens who joined the British Army to fight against teh Nazis (Ireland was neutral) have just been pardoned by the Irish Govt. They were all branded as Deserters and barred from any kind of state support, entitlements or work.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Irish Citizens who joined the British Army to fight against teh Nazis (Ireland was neutral) have just been pardoned by the Irish Govt. They were all branded as Deserters and barred from any kind of state support, entitlements or work.

De Valera was insane when it came to these matters. I can see why Ireland was neutral but a huge number of Irish citizens volunteered to fight the Nazis. I regret to hear that they have waited so long for restitution of their rights. De Valera should have lost his for putting on his top hat and going to the German Embassy to offer his personal condolences on the death of Hitler.

Probably Hitler was perceived by Dev as an enemy of godless Communism, or something of the kind.

[Border Reiver]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Irish Citizens who joined the British Army to fight against teh Nazis (Ireland was neutral) have just been pardoned by the Irish Govt. They were all branded as Deserters and barred from any kind of state support, entitlements or work.

It's a little more restrictive than that - only those 7,000 or so who deserted the Irish miltary to join British forces were pardoned. See here. The remaining 53,000 or so presumably didn't require a pardon.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

Here is a picture for you of a Korean in German Army uniform with some further info.
http://thomo.coldie.net/wp-content/u...03/wwii438.jpg

There is also the movie "My Way"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Way_(2011_film)
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/myway/

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

Originally Posted by Robrob

I vaguely recall a story (possibly from Cornelius Ryan's "The Longest Day") about a bunch of German prisoners who turned out to be impressed Mongolians. Something about them being drafted by the Japanese, being captured and impressed by the Russians, captured and impressed by the Germans, etc...

Here is a picture for you of a Korean in German Army uniform with some further info.
http://thomo.coldie.net/wp-content/u...03/wwii438.jpg

Thanks for the correction. I knew I remembered the gist of the incident!

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by SimonD

Men that train, fight and suffer under extreme conditions form a bond that goes beyond ideas. These men would have formed extremely strong and powerful friendships and would have stuck by their comrades, regardless of any concept of right or wrong.

That would not apply to late SS divisions. The new recruits did not train with the division but were simply transferred in during reconstition at home. Many came from the navy and air force and not from the army when the manpower problem kicked in. Late division lower ranks had language differences to the officers and NCOs. Most SS divisions were annihilated at least once and the divisions were being reconstituted when sent back into battle meaning many strangers.

John Keegan, the historian, has many interesting thoughts on "divisional spiritual integrity". He says beyond a battalion most soldiers see other soldiers as strangers.

I think it was more of the simple problem that they would be shot as deserters by Germany or shot as traitors by their home country, so the robotic "battle fatigue" mind-set became common place. The SS were not the elite troops in 1944 & 1945 that people commonly think they were. Only one division had a history from earlier than 1936.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by SimonD

If anyone is interested in reading about one such account, I would recommend 'The forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer (I accept that there are some critism of his account, especially around the description of the uniform that he wore)

Sajer's story of how he ended up in the German army doesn't make any sense. He claims that the Germans conscripted him in early 1942 when he was 16. Germans weren't that desperate until much later.

He also claims to have received some training in a stuka unit (including being flown around a couple of times) before he was kicked out of Luftwaffe. If I remember correctly, the stated reason was failing the physical examination. However, the examination would have been held long before he was anywhere close to any training unit and he wouldn't have even seen a stuka until late in the training.

The third oddity of Sajer's early time in the army is his description of a supply operation in which he was part of a unit that ferried stuff from Poland to the front line trenches. Army logicstics don't work that way. Instead, the stuff is taken form large depots to smaller depots, each leg taken by a different transport unit, until finally the guys at the front go fetch it from the company supply distribution point. Rear area transport units don't get anywhere near the trenches.

There's a hypothesis about Sajer that I find plausible but unproven. According to it Sajer had nothing to do with Grossdeutchland but instead was one of the volunteers to the French SS Division Charlemagne. He wanted to write a book about his experiences but didn't want to admit that he was in SS so he invented a story about how he ended up at the East Front. My own opinion is that the early part is not the only place in the book where he embellished the story with invented events—if he was at front at all, I'm not completely convinced that he was.

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

I'd have to look it up, but a study in the 90's found that a good number of the Danes who volunteered to fight for the Germans came from the German minority in Southern Denmark / Schleswig. They had been Germans prior to the Plebiscites of 1920 which returned the area to Denmark, and thus there was an expectation within that community that the young men should go and fight for Germany.

Added to that, following the invasion of the Soviet Union, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot joined simply to fight the Communists.

There is probably plenty of truth there.

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Bell

There is also the movie "My Way"

Thanks for that. I had a look at the trailer. It appears to be the sort of big budget, rambling epic, that I enjoy. I wish the film good fortune at the box office.

Trailer for "My Way"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlTkIAkwgFY

[Shrike]

Little known, even here in The Netherlands. On one of our islands, Texel, a Georgian division of the Wehrmacht was stationed. The were captured Red Army soldiers whowere given the choice: remain POW and starve, join the Wehrmacht and possibly survive.
At the end of the war they defected again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_uprising_on_Texel

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Originally Posted by SimonD

If anyone is interested in reading about one such account, I would recommend 'The forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer (I accept that there are some critism of his account, especially around the description of the uniform that he wore)

And the fact that the author has blatantly never been a soldier before in his life.

Its the worst pile of old cobblers that I have ever struggled through the first few chapters of in my life.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Originally Posted by Marras

He also claims to have received some training in a stuka unit (including being flown around a couple of times) before he was kicked out of Luftwaffe. If I remember correctly, the stated reason was failing the physical examination. However, the examination would have been held long before he was anywhere close to any training unit and he wouldn't have even seen a stuka until late in the training.

Even had he been in Stuka training (And Stuka aircrew were the absolute elite of the eilte, Stuka squadrons got the best of the very best and nothing less) and failed in a catastrophic manner he would not have been transferred to the Wermacht but to a Flak unit at the very worst and more likely a fighter squadron. All flak units were under Luftwaffe control and fighter squadrons were far down the food chain.

The whole story beggars credibility.

He describes how an officer nobbles him to drive him to the next town. In a panzer. With an '88' in tow. I mean rly. Srsly?

Then he cant remember conversations with his mates beyond "we joked and laughed into the night" but can remember verbatim a speech by some Nazi commisar at some supply depot?

Later on he is in a firefight, following which he and his mates light a fire. NCO comes along and gives them a bollocking and a few hours of extra sentry duty. Sajer then states he went of to find his rifle. Find his rifle. Rly? Srsly? He is supposedly a trained soldier in the 1942 Wermacht, an army that enjoyed an unparalleled degree of tactical and operation superiority and yet he doesnt even have the most basic of soldierly instincts that you always have your personal weapon with you. Was the Wermacht really full of bimbling nincompoops?

Very sorry, but if an NCO had actually found a landser sitting around a fire in the operational zone who didnt know where his rifle was, he would have good a whole lot worse than a few hours of stag.

I gave up reading at this point as the whole book is fraudulent nonsense and badly written fraudulent nonsense at that.

[Didaktylos]

Originally Posted by Marras

Sajer's story of how he ended up in the German army doesn't make any sense. He claims that the Germans conscripted him in early 1942 when he was 16. Germans weren't that desperate until much later.

He also claims to have received some training in a stuka unit (including being flown around a couple of times) before he was kicked out of Luftwaffe. If I remember correctly, the stated reason was failing the physical examination. However, the examination would have been held long before he was anywhere close to any training unit and he wouldn't have even seen a stuka until late in the training.

The third oddity of Sajer's early time in the army is his description of a supply operation in which he was part of a unit that ferried stuff from Poland to the front line trenches. Army logicstics don't work that way. Instead, the stuff is taken form large depots to smaller depots, each leg taken by a different transport unit, until finally the guys at the front go fetch it from the company supply distribution point. Rear area transport units don't get anywhere near the trenches.

There's a hypothesis about Sajer that I find plausible but unproven. According to it Sajer had nothing to do with Grossdeutchland but instead was one of the volunteers to the French SS Division Charlemagne. He wanted to write a book about his experiences but didn't want to admit that he was in SS so he invented a story about how he ended up at the East Front. My own opinion is that the early part is not the only place in the book where he embellished the story with invented events—if he was at front at all, I'm not completely convinced that he was.

As I understand it, Guy Sajer came from either Alsace or Lorraine. When the Germans defeated France in 1940, these became Reich (not occupied) territory. He may have volunteered at 16, but he would have been eligible for conscription eventually. This is why he was not treated by the French Fourth Republic as a traitor.

Oh and another bit of trivia for you - one reason why Diem Bien Phu isn't a huge scar on the French psyche is that though only a minority of those who eventually surrendered survived, Diem Bien Phu's garrison was largely Legion Etrangere, a very large proportion of which at that time consisted of press-ganged German POW's.

[Bluespaceoddity]

Originally Posted by Didaktylos

As I understand it, ...

His mother was German.

[Didaktylos]

Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity

His mother was German.

It's so long since I read it that I couldn't remember properly - thing is, as far as the Third Reich was concerned, he was eligible for conscription into the Wehrmacht.