House theatrics: another repeal vote

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 02:27 PM

I hadn't realized this will be the 33rd time Republicans have tried to repeal--in total or in part--the ACA since it was passed into law.

Given that some 3/4 of Americans disapprove of the job Congress is doing right now, do they really think this nonsense will achieve anything?

I mean Congress has some very serious work ahead of them, and at least a couple of looming deadlines. Do they really think screwing around with "repeal" bills is good for the country?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/11/politi...html?hpt=hp_c1

fishbob · 11th July 2012, 03:11 PM

Didja hear Romney was booed during his speach to NAACP when he mentioned repealing "Obamacare"? It won't take much more of this juvenile grandstanding until the entire electorate is completely disgusted with the topic.

We are paying these blowhards good money to waste our money and annoy us at the same time. This is unsustainable.

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 03:19 PM

I saw the video of that. He responded by citing a poll of members of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (now there's a demographic that the NAACP will be persuaded by!) saying that a majority of them claim that "Obamacare" will prevent them from creating new jobs.

Because they were adding jobs so furiously before the ACA passed!

Puppycow · 11th July 2012, 05:04 PM

Obama should run against this do-nothing congress.

Then we could say "Give 'em hell, Barry!"

RandFan · 11th July 2012, 05:16 PM

I'm not sure the GOP is correct in their math on this one. AIU, People actually like much that is in the ACA and the popularity for it overall is growing.

Biscuit · 11th July 2012, 05:21 PM

I realize that both parties do these bitchy little publicity votes all the time and it just infuriates me.

I wish ACA had been struck down and Obama said, "well we tried the republican plan but that unconstitutional so it time for UHC!"

I saw a poll today on CNN that showed 47% of the country now supports ACA which coincidentally tied a poll that showed the country was split 47% apiece to each of the candidates.

keale · 11th July 2012, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

I realize that both parties do these bitchy little publicity votes all the time and it just infuriates me.

I wish ACA had been struck down and Obama said, "well we tried the republican plan but that unconstitutional so it time for UHC!"

I saw a poll today on CNN that showed 47% of the country now supports ACA which coincidentally tied a poll that showed the country was split 47% apiece to each of the candidates.

Thus the importance of the swing vote

KDLarsen · 11th July 2012, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I saw the video of that. He responded by citing a poll of members of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (now there's a demographic that the NAACP will be persuaded by!) saying that a majority of them claim that "Obamacare" will prevent them from creating new jobs.

Because they were adding jobs so furiously before the ACA passed!

That'd be the private, conservative lobby organisation?

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by CNN

Prior to the final vote, the House rejected a Democratic motion that would have required any legislator supporting the repeal measure to give up government-provided health care.

Now why wouldn't they agree to such a condition? They know full well it won't pass into law.

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

That'd be the private, conservative lobby organisation?

Yep!

The one that continues to run electioneering ads full of long debunked lies. For example: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...kaine-says-he/

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by CNN

"It is not a game to be played," declared House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Virginia, before the voting started.
<snip>
"Those of us who want patient-centered health care have had two years to repeal it," Hensarling said. "I think it's kind of unreasonable to think we're going to go away."

Of course it's a game. They are aware that they can't get it through the Senate, and that even if they did (but that can't), they certainly know there's no way Obama would sign it, and they most absolutely definitely can't override a veto.

All they're doing is political theater so that they can incorporate these votes into campaign ads. It's a waste of time, especially when they've got very serious work to do.

Sam.I.Am · 11th July 2012, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Now why wouldn't they agree to such a condition? They know full well it won't pass into law.

For political ads mostly. Republican candidates can now say that the Democrat that they are trying to unseat deserve to be kicked out for voting for a large tax increase (now that the SC has ruled it as such). Before there was some wriggle room in calling the mandate "Not a tax so I didn't vote for a tax" but now they can't say that anymore (without it being pointed out as false anyway). Anyone who didn't see this vote coming just wasn't paying attention. So yeah, it is political theater but it does have a purpose this time. If it will work out as expected is yet to be seen however.

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

For political ads mostly. Republican candidates can now say that the Democrat that they are trying to unseat deserve to be kicked out for voting for a large tax increase (now that the SC has ruled it as such). Before there was some wriggle room in calling the mandate "Not a tax so I didn't vote for a tax" but now they can't say that anymore (without it being pointed out as false anyway). Anyone who didn't see this vote coming just wasn't paying attention. So yeah, it is political theater but it does have a purpose this time. If it will work out as expected is yet to be seen however.

I think you missed what I was talking about specifically in that post. House GOP (and a few Dems) voted against a Democratic proposal to add a rider to the "repeal" bill that says anyone in Congress who votes to repeal the ACA must give up their primo taxpayer-funded health plans.

This is obviously something the Democrats did for their ads (showing the GOP to be hypocritical about the issue). My question is, why did the GOP take the bait? They could have allowed the rider to be added since they know 100% for sure that the bill will never pass into law, and there is zero chance that they will have to give up their primo taxpayer-funded health plans.

ETA: Even on the tax issue (and the Supreme Court certainly didn't say it was a "large" tax increase--in fact, part of their reasoning was that it was too small to be considered purely a penalty), the GOP voting to protect their own primo taxpayer funded health plans, they have effectively passed up a chance to cut taxes (or apply that savings elsewhere in the budget or just for deficit reduction).

DavidJames · 11th July 2012, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I'm not sure the GOP is correct in their math on this one. AIU, People actually like much that is in the ACA and the popularity for it overall is growing.

Obama needs to spend time on this issue.

The Republicans have managed to demonize the word 'obamacare', much like they did liberal, progressive, intellectual etc. Not ironically, the intellectually lazy will allow themselves to swayed by the demonization.

Obama needs to have some educational ads which show what we know. List out the individual parts of the ACA and show their popularity and even better, show how the 'average joe', benefits.

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 07:04 PM

For another example on that last point: if they repealed the ACA we would all lose the requirement that health insurance be guaranteed issue (they can't refuse coverage because you are high risk for claims because you have a pre-existing condition)--but Congress would still have that exact protection for themselves as they did before the ACA was passed.

It's definitely fodder for attack ads. Congressperson so-and-so wants to take this away from you, but refused to give it up for himself!

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Obama needs to have some educational ads which show what we know. List out the individual parts of the ACA and show their popularity and even better, show how the 'average joe', benefits.

Definitely. And I suspect his campaign was waiting for the constitutionality challenge to be resolved before hitching its wagon to the ACA horse. But now is the time for Obama to sell Obamacare. It really should be an easy sell a this point. Mostly debunking a lot of misinformation.

DavidJames · 11th July 2012, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Definitely. And I suspect his campaign was waiting for the constitutionality challenge to be resolved before hitching its wagon to the ACA horse. But now is the time for Obama to sell Obamacare. It really should be an easy sell a this point. Mostly debunking a lot of misinformation.

That Kaiser poll would be a good one to analyse and use to show the misconceptions. As an added bonus they should postulate as to why the people have the misconceptions.

Wangler · 11th July 2012, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

AIU, People actually like much that is in the ACA and the popularity for it overall is growing.

I just don't see it, from these Kaiser tracking numbers:

RandFan · 11th July 2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Wangler

I just don't see it, from these Kaiser tracking numbers:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...e36ac0cbff.jpg

Fair enough. Since people like what is in the law, it's time to sell them on the law.

Originally Posted by Think Progress

source So while Americans oppose a law called the Affordable Care Act, they support its provisions — the individual requirement and a private system of insurance (expressed in the ACA through state-based exchanges that will offer private coverage.) These elements remain popular despite two years of daily attacks and misrepresentations, which seemed to have only heightened the public’s frustration with the political process that created the ACA, while shielding the actual substance from too much disapproval.

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wangler

I just don't see it, from these Kaiser tracking numbers:

Yep, opinion is pretty split. Certainly not what the GOP is claiming.

And there is good data to show that a majority is in favor of most of the major provisions of the law (even many of those who answer that they are in favor of repeal). So the Obama campaign definitely has an "opportunity".

JoeTheJuggler · 11th July 2012, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

That Kaiser poll would be a good one to analyse and use to show the misconceptions. As an added bonus they should postulate as to why the people have the misconceptions.

You mean like try to suss out where they got their misinformation from?

ETA: Also, did you mean that KFF quiz?

DavidJames · 11th July 2012, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

You mean like try to suss out where they got their misinformation from?

ETA: Also, did you mean that KFF quiz?

Yes, I meant the quiz.

Tsukasa Buddha · 11th July 2012, 10:52 PM

I usually have sympathy for "hopeless votes" because sometimes it is just nice to make things official or a minority really wants an issue to break into mainstream discussion. But this is just silly. I'd argue it isn't even good theatre.

Beerina · 12th July 2012, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Of course it's a game. They are aware that they can't get it through the Senate, and that even if they did (but that can't), they certainly know there's no way Obama would sign it, and they most absolutely definitely can't override a veto.

All they're doing is political theater so that they can incorporate these votes into campaign ads. It's a waste of time, especially when they've got very serious work to do.

This isn't much unlike some of the stuff the Democrats are doing in the Senate.

Pay attention to the distributions of votes in these posturing votes -- the ones who tend to switch sides from "their party", the numbers, this tells you a lot more about where the country is.

eeyore1954 · 12th July 2012, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by fishbob

Didja hear Romney was booed during his speach to NAACP when he mentioned repealing "Obamacare"? It won't take much more of this juvenile grandstanding until the entire electorate is completely disgusted with the topic.

We are paying these blowhards good money to waste our money and annoy us at the same time. This is unsustainable.

I don't see what this has to do with this thread but from what I heard he demonstrated very little political sense in what he sais there and even less sense in how he said it.

eeyore1954 · 12th July 2012, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

I realize that both parties do these bitchy little publicity votes all the time and it just infuriates me.

My feelings too.

KDLarsen · 12th July 2012, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Yep!

The one that continues to run electioneering ads full of long debunked lies. For example: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...kaine-says-he/

I remember seeing a documentary, where the directors did a vox pop asking people who they thought the Chamber of Commerce were, and a majority appeared to believe it was something to do with the US Department of Commerce.

Brown · 12th July 2012, 07:11 AM

According to CBS News, these "theatrics" aren't cheap. They have taken up at least two full weeks of House time, they have been redundant, they have detracted from other more pressing business, and they have cost the taxpayers about fifty million dollars.

For nothing.

From the party that bills itself as fiscally responsible.

If these yellow-stripes want to spend their own money (or their faceless supporters' money) on a political message, that's one thing. But wasting taxpayer funds on this pointless exercise is, as far as I can tell, unjustifiable.

NoahFence · 12th July 2012, 08:23 AM

Are there any non-media links that show this is the 33rd time they did this? I got a guy who thinks it's not. Can't show links from CNN or MSNBC or FOX 'cuz they're teh evil media...

NoahFence · 12th July 2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Brown

According to CBS News, these "theatrics" aren't cheap. They have taken up at least two full weeks of House time, they have been redundant, they have detracted from other more pressing business, and they have cost the taxpayers about fifty million dollars.

linkie?

That's a juicy tidbit.

pgwenthold · 12th July 2012, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

This isn't much unlike some of the stuff the Democrats are doing in the Senate.

The democrats in the Senate have repeatedly (say, more than 20 times) put the same issue up for a vote in the last 4 years knowing full well that it would not have a chance neither of being passed in the house or not being vetoed by the president?

Or are you using a different concept of "not much unlike" that is better described as "completely unlike"?

Brown · 12th July 2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by NoahFence

linkie?

Linkie.

Quote:

Health Care Law Repeal Efforts By House GOP Cost Nearly $50 Million: CBS Report
...
According to a report by CBS News, these efforts, widely viewed as symbolic political maneuvers, come with a high price tag.

CBS' Nancy Cordes reported Wednesday that Republicans' many fruitless attempts at repealing the Affordable Care Act have taken up at least 80 hours of time on the House floor since 2010, amounting to two full work weeks. As the House, according to the Congressional Research Service, costs taxpayers $24 million a week to operate, those two weeks amounted to a total cost of approximately $48 million.

JoeTheJuggler · 12th July 2012, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Brown

According to CBS News, these "theatrics" aren't cheap. They have taken up at least two full weeks of House time, they have been redundant, they have detracted from other more pressing business, and they have cost the taxpayers about fifty million dollars.

For nothing.

From the party that bills itself as fiscally responsible.

And meanwhile, we're that much closer to the "fiscal cliff" and the next debt ceiling crisis. It's bad enough they're wasting resources and time, but they really do have a serious challenge with fairly grave consequences.

Failure to reach an agreement that deals with the long term debt crisis will lead to the automatic tax increases and spending cuts that could well send us right back into recession.

JoeTheJuggler · 12th July 2012, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

This isn't much unlike some of the stuff the Democrats are doing in the Senate.

Evidence?

30 some votes on versions of the same bill they know had zero possibility of becoming law?

JoeTheJuggler · 12th July 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by NoahFence

Are there any non-media links that show this is the 33rd time they did this? I got a guy who thinks it's not. Can't show links from CNN or MSNBC or FOX 'cuz they're teh evil media...

It'd take going to both the House.gov and the Senate.gov websites and doing a lot of searching.

Your guy thinks Fox News is evil too?

I would ask him if he believes Antarctica exists. He's got an epistemological problem that runs deeper than politics, I think!

Biscuit · 12th July 2012, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Definitely. And I suspect his campaign was waiting for the constitutionality challenge to be resolved before hitching its wagon to the ACA horse. But now is the time for Obama to sell Obamacare. It really should be an easy sell a this point. Mostly debunking a lot of misinformation.

The ad is pretty simple. List all the individual components and the approval rating of them and then state, "in order to get these we have to have a mandate because otherwise the private insurance companies won't be able to pay their CEO's hundreds on millions in compensation. So we either get the benefits and have a mandate or we could get rid of the insurance companies, let me know."

JoeTheJuggler · 12th July 2012, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

The ad is pretty simple. List all the individual components and the approval rating of them and then state, "in order to get these we have to have a mandate because otherwise the private insurance companies won't be able to pay their CEO's hundreds on millions in compensation. So we either get the benefits and have a mandate or we could get rid of the insurance companies, let me know."

But what about the loss of freedoms? And . . .um. . .socialized healthcare? And. . . death panels. . and stuff?

11th July 2012, 02:27 PM	#1
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	House theatrics: another repeal vote I hadn't realized this will be the 33rd time Republicans have tried to repeal--in total or in part--the ACA since it was passed into law. Given that some 3/4 of Americans disapprove of the job Congress is doing right now, do they really think this nonsense will achieve anything? I mean Congress has some very serious work ahead of them, and at least a couple of looming deadlines. Do they really think screwing around with "repeal" bills is good for the country? http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/11/politi...html?hpt=hp_c1
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 03:11 PM	#2
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,666	Didja hear Romney was booed during his speach to NAACP when he mentioned repealing "Obamacare"? It won't take much more of this juvenile grandstanding until the entire electorate is completely disgusted with the topic. We are paying these blowhards good money to waste our money and annoy us at the same time. This is unsustainable.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

11th July 2012, 03:19 PM	#3
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	I saw the video of that. He responded by citing a poll of members of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (now there's a demographic that the NAACP will be persuaded by!) saying that a majority of them claim that "Obamacare" will prevent them from creating new jobs. Because they were adding jobs so furiously before the ACA passed!
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 05:04 PM	#4
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,701	Obama should run against this do-nothing congress. Then we could say "Give 'em hell, Barry!"
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

11th July 2012, 05:16 PM	#5
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,062	I'm not sure the GOP is correct in their math on this one. AIU, People actually like much that is in the ACA and the popularity for it overall is growing.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

11th July 2012, 05:21 PM	#6
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,762	I realize that both parties do these bitchy little publicity votes all the time and it just infuriates me. I wish ACA had been struck down and Obama said, "well we tried the republican plan but that unconstitutional so it time for UHC!" I saw a poll today on CNN that showed 47% of the country now supports ACA which coincidentally tied a poll that showed the country was split 47% apiece to each of the candidates.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,762	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

11th July 2012, 06:01 PM	#7
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by Biscuit I realize that both parties do these bitchy little publicity votes all the time and it just infuriates me. I wish ACA had been struck down and Obama said, "well we tried the republican plan but that unconstitutional so it time for UHC!" I saw a poll today on CNN that showed 47% of the country now supports ACA which coincidentally tied a poll that showed the country was split 47% apiece to each of the candidates. Thus the importance of the swing vote
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

11th July 2012, 06:23 PM	#8
KDLarsen Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lord's Posts: 1,939	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I saw the video of that. He responded by citing a poll of members of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (now there's a demographic that the NAACP will be persuaded by!) saying that a majority of them claim that "Obamacare" will prevent them from creating new jobs. Because they were adding jobs so furiously before the ACA passed! That'd be the private, conservative lobby organisation?

11th July 2012, 06:27 PM	#9
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by CNN Prior to the final vote, the House rejected a Democratic motion that would have required any legislator supporting the repeal measure to give up government-provided health care. Now why wouldn't they agree to such a condition? They know full well it won't pass into law.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 06:30 PM	#10
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by KDLarsen That'd be the private, conservative lobby organisation? Yep! The one that continues to run electioneering ads full of long debunked lies. For example: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...kaine-says-he/
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 06:35 PM	#11
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by CNN "It is not a game to be played," declared House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Virginia, before the voting started. <snip> "Those of us who want patient-centered health care have had two years to repeal it," Hensarling said. "I think it's kind of unreasonable to think we're going to go away." Of course it's a game. They are aware that they can't get it through the Senate, and that even if they did (but that can't), they certainly know there's no way Obama would sign it, and they most absolutely definitely can't override a veto. All they're doing is political theater so that they can incorporate these votes into campaign ads. It's a waste of time, especially when they've got very serious work to do.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 06:40 PM	#12
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Now why wouldn't they agree to such a condition? They know full well it won't pass into law. For political ads mostly. Republican candidates can now say that the Democrat that they are trying to unseat deserve to be kicked out for voting for a large tax increase (now that the SC has ruled it as such). Before there was some wriggle room in calling the mandate "Not a tax so I didn't vote for a tax" but now they can't say that anymore (without it being pointed out as false anyway). Anyone who didn't see this vote coming just wasn't paying attention. So yeah, it is political theater but it does have a purpose this time. If it will work out as expected is yet to be seen however.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

11th July 2012, 06:47 PM	#13
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am For political ads mostly. Republican candidates can now say that the Democrat that they are trying to unseat deserve to be kicked out for voting for a large tax increase (now that the SC has ruled it as such). Before there was some wriggle room in calling the mandate "Not a tax so I didn't vote for a tax" but now they can't say that anymore (without it being pointed out as false anyway). Anyone who didn't see this vote coming just wasn't paying attention. So yeah, it is political theater but it does have a purpose this time. If it will work out as expected is yet to be seen however. I think you missed what I was talking about specifically in that post. House GOP (and a few Dems) voted against a Democratic proposal to add a rider to the "repeal" bill that says anyone in Congress who votes to repeal the ACA must give up their primo taxpayer-funded health plans. This is obviously something the Democrats did for their ads (showing the GOP to be hypocritical about the issue). My question is, why did the GOP take the bait? They could have allowed the rider to be added since they know 100% for sure that the bill will never pass into law, and there is zero chance that they will have to give up their primo taxpayer-funded health plans. ETA: Even on the tax issue (and the Supreme Court certainly didn't say it was a "large" tax increase--in fact, part of their reasoning was that it was too small to be considered purely a penalty), the GOP voting to protect their own primo taxpayer funded health plans, they have effectively passed up a chance to cut taxes (or apply that savings elsewhere in the budget or just for deficit reduction).
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 11th July 2012 at 06:50 PM.

11th July 2012, 06:49 PM	#14
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,083	Originally Posted by RandFan I'm not sure the GOP is correct in their math on this one. AIU, People actually like much that is in the ACA and the popularity for it overall is growing. Obama needs to spend time on this issue. The Republicans have managed to demonize the word 'obamacare', much like they did liberal, progressive, intellectual etc. Not ironically, the intellectually lazy will allow themselves to swayed by the demonization. Obama needs to have some educational ads which show what we know. List out the individual parts of the ACA and show their popularity and even better, show how the 'average joe', benefits.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

11th July 2012, 07:04 PM	#15
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	For another example on that last point: if they repealed the ACA we would all lose the requirement that health insurance be guaranteed issue (they can't refuse coverage because you are high risk for claims because you have a pre-existing condition)--but Congress would still have that exact protection for themselves as they did before the ACA was passed. It's definitely fodder for attack ads. Congressperson so-and-so wants to take this away from you, but refused to give it up for himself!
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 07:06 PM	#16
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by DavidJames Obama needs to have some educational ads which show what we know. List out the individual parts of the ACA and show their popularity and even better, show how the 'average joe', benefits. Definitely. And I suspect his campaign was waiting for the constitutionality challenge to be resolved before hitching its wagon to the ACA horse. But now is the time for Obama to sell Obamacare. It really should be an easy sell a this point. Mostly debunking a lot of misinformation.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 07:24 PM	#17
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,083	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Definitely. And I suspect his campaign was waiting for the constitutionality challenge to be resolved before hitching its wagon to the ACA horse. But now is the time for Obama to sell Obamacare. It really should be an easy sell a this point. Mostly debunking a lot of misinformation. That Kaiser poll would be a good one to analyse and use to show the misconceptions. As an added bonus they should postulate as to why the people have the misconceptions.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

11th July 2012, 07:30 PM	#18
Wangler Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: OH State Posts: 2,230	Originally Posted by RandFan AIU, People actually like much that is in the ACA and the popularity for it overall is growing. I just don't see it, from these Kaiser tracking numbers:

11th July 2012, 07:44 PM	#19
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,062	Originally Posted by Wangler I just don't see it, from these Kaiser tracking numbers: http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...e36ac0cbff.jpg Fair enough. Since people like what is in the law, it's time to sell them on the law. Originally Posted by Think Progress source So while Americans oppose a law called the Affordable Care Act, they support its provisions — the individual requirement and a private system of insurance (expressed in the ACA through state-based exchanges that will offer private coverage.) These elements remain popular despite two years of daily attacks and misrepresentations, which seemed to have only heightened the public’s frustration with the political process that created the ACA, while shielding the actual substance from too much disapproval.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

11th July 2012, 08:47 PM	#20
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by Wangler I just don't see it, from these Kaiser tracking numbers: Yep, opinion is pretty split. Certainly not what the GOP is claiming. And there is good data to show that a majority is in favor of most of the major provisions of the law (even many of those who answer that they are in favor of repeal). So the Obama campaign definitely has an "opportunity".
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

11th July 2012, 08:50 PM	#21
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by DavidJames That Kaiser poll would be a good one to analyse and use to show the misconceptions. As an added bonus they should postulate as to why the people have the misconceptions. You mean like try to suss out where they got their misinformation from? ETA: Also, did you mean that KFF quiz?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 11th July 2012 at 08:54 PM.

11th July 2012, 09:31 PM	#22
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,083	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler You mean like try to suss out where they got their misinformation from? ETA: Also, did you mean that KFF quiz? Yes, I meant the quiz.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

11th July 2012, 10:52 PM	#23
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,874	I usually have sympathy for "hopeless votes" because sometimes it is just nice to make things official or a minority really wants an issue to break into mainstream discussion. But this is just silly. I'd argue it isn't even good theatre.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

12th July 2012, 06:09 AM	#24
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Of course it's a game. They are aware that they can't get it through the Senate, and that even if they did (but that can't), they certainly know there's no way Obama would sign it, and they most absolutely definitely can't override a veto. All they're doing is political theater so that they can incorporate these votes into campaign ads. It's a waste of time, especially when they've got very serious work to do. This isn't much unlike some of the stuff the Democrats are doing in the Senate. Pay attention to the distributions of votes in these posturing votes -- the ones who tend to switch sides from "their party", the numbers, this tells you a lot more about where the country is.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

12th July 2012, 06:47 AM	#25
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,104	Originally Posted by fishbob Didja hear Romney was booed during his speach to NAACP when he mentioned repealing "Obamacare"? It won't take much more of this juvenile grandstanding until the entire electorate is completely disgusted with the topic. We are paying these blowhards good money to waste our money and annoy us at the same time. This is unsustainable. I don't see what this has to do with this thread but from what I heard he demonstrated very little political sense in what he sais there and even less sense in how he said it.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,104

12th July 2012, 06:48 AM	#26
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,104	Originally Posted by Biscuit I realize that both parties do these bitchy little publicity votes all the time and it just infuriates me. My feelings too.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,104

12th July 2012, 06:52 AM	#27
KDLarsen Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lord's Posts: 1,939	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Yep! The one that continues to run electioneering ads full of long debunked lies. For example: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...kaine-says-he/ I remember seeing a documentary, where the directors did a vox pop asking people who they thought the Chamber of Commerce were, and a majority appeared to believe it was something to do with the US Department of Commerce.

12th July 2012, 07:11 AM	#28
Brown Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 12,145	According to CBS News, these "theatrics" aren't cheap. They have taken up at least two full weeks of House time, they have been redundant, they have detracted from other more pressing business, and they have cost the taxpayers about fifty million dollars. For nothing. From the party that bills itself as fiscally responsible. If these yellow-stripes want to spend their own money (or their faceless supporters' money) on a political message, that's one thing. But wasting taxpayer funds on this pointless exercise is, as far as I can tell, unjustifiable.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

12th July 2012, 08:23 AM	#29
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,288	Are there any non-media links that show this is the 33rd time they did this? I got a guy who thinks it's not. Can't show links from CNN or MSNBC or FOX 'cuz they're teh evil media...
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

12th July 2012, 08:31 AM	#30
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,288	Originally Posted by Brown According to CBS News, these "theatrics" aren't cheap. They have taken up at least two full weeks of House time, they have been redundant, they have detracted from other more pressing business, and they have cost the taxpayers about fifty million dollars. linkie? That's a juicy tidbit.
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

12th July 2012, 08:32 AM	#31
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,066	Originally Posted by Beerina This isn't much unlike some of the stuff the Democrats are doing in the Senate. The democrats in the Senate have repeatedly (say, more than 20 times) put the same issue up for a vote in the last 4 years knowing full well that it would not have a chance neither of being passed in the house or not being vetoed by the president? Or are you using a different concept of "not much unlike" that is better described as "completely unlike"?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

12th July 2012, 09:27 AM	#32
Brown Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 12,145	Originally Posted by NoahFence linkie? Linkie. Quote: Health Care Law Repeal Efforts By House GOP Cost Nearly $50 Million: CBS Report ... According to a report by CBS News, these efforts, widely viewed as symbolic political maneuvers, come with a high price tag. CBS' Nancy Cordes reported Wednesday that Republicans' many fruitless attempts at repealing the Affordable Care Act have taken up at least 80 hours of time on the House floor since 2010, amounting to two full work weeks. As the House, according to the Congressional Research Service, costs taxpayers $24 million a week to operate, those two weeks amounted to a total cost of approximately $48 million.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

12th July 2012, 03:11 PM	#33
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by Brown According to CBS News, these "theatrics" aren't cheap. They have taken up at least two full weeks of House time, they have been redundant, they have detracted from other more pressing business, and they have cost the taxpayers about fifty million dollars. For nothing. From the party that bills itself as fiscally responsible. And meanwhile, we're that much closer to the "fiscal cliff" and the next debt ceiling crisis. It's bad enough they're wasting resources and time, but they really do have a serious challenge with fairly grave consequences. Failure to reach an agreement that deals with the long term debt crisis will lead to the automatic tax increases and spending cuts that could well send us right back into recession.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

12th July 2012, 03:13 PM	#34
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by Beerina This isn't much unlike some of the stuff the Democrats are doing in the Senate. Evidence? 30 some votes on versions of the same bill they know had zero possibility of becoming law?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 12th July 2012 at 03:18 PM.

12th July 2012, 03:16 PM	#35
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by NoahFence Are there any non-media links that show this is the 33rd time they did this? I got a guy who thinks it's not. Can't show links from CNN or MSNBC or FOX 'cuz they're teh evil media... It'd take going to both the House.gov and the Senate.gov websites and doing a lot of searching. Your guy thinks Fox News is evil too? I would ask him if he believes Antarctica exists. He's got an epistemological problem that runs deeper than politics, I think!
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons