21 year old drinking age. - Page 4

I Ratant · 1st June 2012, 04:16 PM

From our tech reps that worked with Saudi Airlines, they said that once a plane left Saudi airspace, the booze came out.
The L-1011s we made for them had "Mecca pointers" in the main cabin, so anyone needing to void his bowels would know when the plane was oriented so the anus wasn't pointing in the wrong direction.
Gotta wonder about a diety that would concerned about that.

Kestrel · 1st June 2012, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

From our tech reps that worked with Saudi Airlines, they said that once a plane left Saudi airspace, the booze came out.
The L-1011s we made for them had "Mecca pointers" in the main cabin, so anyone needing to void his bowels would know when the plane was oriented so the anus wasn't pointing in the wrong direction.
Gotta wonder about a diety that would concerned about that.

The same kind of deity that needs to be praised five times a day?

Brian-M · 1st June 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Anyone? Anyone?

Since it's clearly rediculous according to the OP that people should be able to vote and enlist in the military at 18, it's clearly rediculous that we make people wait until the age of 21 to purchase handguns when they can purchase long guns at 18.

Why aren't the Aussies and Europeans more supportive of this clearly supported logic derived from the OP?

Because over here we have very tight gun control, so it's a bit of a non-issue for most us.

But like drinking, gambling, driving, ect, 18 year-olds can buy handguns here under the same regulations as anyone else. From Wikipedia...

Quote:

State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.

Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense.

I might be remembering this wrong, but I think if the reason is target shooting you have to provide proof of membership in a practice range or gun club, and there aren't that many around, and the "gun collecting" reason only applies for the purchase of antique weapons. For pest control or hunting, you have to either provide proof of ownership of a large amount of rural land, or proof that you have permission from the owner to use the land for hunting or pest control.

ETA:

These regulations were partially a result of the Port Arthur massacre of 1996. I remember that when the regulations came into effect, for quite a while they had a gun buyback scheme, where the government would buy old weapons back from the public (to get them out of circulation), with an amnesty for unregistered or illegal weapons.

Sir Robin Goodfellow · 1st June 2012, 07:42 PM

In Canada, to purchase a handgun you must first get your long-gun permit by taking a test, then you can take the restricted firearms test. You need to be in a gun club to acquire a handgun, but you can get one at 18 if you jump through all the hoops.

Damien Evans · 1st June 2012, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

The links don't lie, they show exactly what you fabricated and they show that I never posted those words... you did.

You are simply projecting now... nowhere in that thread did I post the words you put in quotes and claimed I said. When challenged for proof in the form of a link or a post number, you simply ran away.

Your pretzel logic and outright fabrications aren't believable.

Do you have anything either correct or useful on *this* topic?

Go away, the adults are trying to have a discussion.

Robrob · 1st June 2012, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

From our tech reps that worked with Saudi Airlines, they said that once a plane left Saudi airspace, the booze came out.
The L-1011s we made for them had "Mecca pointers" in the main cabin, so anyone needing to void his bowels would know when the plane was oriented so the anus wasn't pointing in the wrong direction.
Gotta wonder about a diety that would concerned about that.

More than likely that was a workplace urban myth. I'd bet the "Mecca pointers" you are describing were so your passengers would know the direction to pray (five times a day).

Tsukasa Buddha · 1st June 2012, 09:46 PM

Linky to my post in other thread.

Jorghnassen · 2nd June 2012, 04:27 AM

I'm still not impressed by those papers. All observational studies with inadequate accounting for confounding for those with actual statistics beyond basic descriptive (that last one has zero analysis whatsoever, "look, the US is average on those things we measured"). The New Zealand study is the only one with the merit of actually looking at the effect of a lowering of the drinking age, however, their analysis is so deeply flawed I'm guessing no statistician actually reviewed the paper. They look at 3 groups of drivers, in two blocks. Since overall, the actual before/after number of deaths is down in each group (except females 18-19, though the effect is small it may just be due to the inerrant variability of the process), they attribute differences between the baseline group and the other groups as due to the change in drinking age, but they fail to look at other unaffected groups. How did the 25-29 y.o. drunk driving deaths changed over the same period? Is it the same as the 20-24? We don't have these numbers. If the change is not the same, shouldn't we attribute that difference to the change in drinking age as well, even though they were not affected by that legislation. Could accident rates for 15-19 year olds dropping slower than the 20-24 y.o. group be attributable to a systemic lack of driving experience? I'm not saying, of course, that alcohol has no effect on driving, but the effect of lowering the drinking age is overestimated by the New Zealand study method of analysis.

Culture is a huge aspect of the problem, and, as noted in one of the papers in Tsukasa Buddha's post, bringing the legal drinking age up had no effect on the drinking culture of college students in the US (while consumption reduced in the overall population). So, to tackle that problem, perhaps a different, "local" approach is warranted.

I Ratant · 2nd June 2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Brian-M

... I remember that when the regulations came into effect, for quite a while they had a gun buyback scheme, where the government would buy old weapons back from the public (to get them out of circulation), with an amnesty for unregistered or illegal weapons.

.
Those "no questions asked" buy-backs here get a lot of guns off the streets.

I Ratant · 2nd June 2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Robrob

More than likely that was a workplace urban myth. I'd bet the "Mecca pointers" you are describing were so your passengers would know the direction to pray (five times a day).

.
That too...

The tossing of all the restrictions -in Arabia- when the plane goes out of Arabia is not a myth though.

fitzgibbon · 2nd June 2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

That's not the limit.
That's the necessary minimum.

I've seen no sure evidence that setting any minimum age stops "under age" drinking.

Not at all. In fact, setting arbitrary points creates more problems with those arriving at said arbitrary age than acknowledging the realities of human nature

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

by teaching youngsters to drink responsibly when way below 21 or 18 discourages "binge drinking" when they are older. The French model- where kids are allowed increased amounts of wine with meals as they get older , is often mentioned. Giving youngsters the ability to enjoy a drink and know their limits does seem to make sense, just like teaching them about anything else.

Absolutely. When a certain age beyond which nothing can be denied is fetishised, you create circumstances ripe for 'reality' television. Laides and gentlemen, I give you MTV's "Campus PD"

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 2nd June 2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Having drunk 12, 13, and 14 years olds roaming the streets is not a good idea, but that's the result. Don't believe it'd be any different for your country either, we looked at previous overseas experiments at an 18-year old drinking age and said we could do it better, we couldn't.

Sooner or later, people are going to have to be adults with all adult responsibilities and privileges. Some will take up the torch and run with it; some will stumble.

The age isn't going to be the deciding factor

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 2nd June 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

If you want to have the issues surrounding teen drinking magnified out of control, drunk teens on the streets, increased drunk driving by teens, teen deaths caused by alcohol overdoses, and alcohol caused vehicle accidents or crime, well then great, lower the drinking age to 18 and you'll get them all.

You're kidding me, right? Because under-21s were a huge problem then, right?

By that logic, Prohibition should be reintroduced right quick and everything'll be right as rain PDQ

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

If you want it kept under control, then keeping it at 20 or 21 is the far better idea. I guess it depends on the sort of society you want to live in. We tried it based on a belief that teens could be trusted and would respect it, and it was an abysmal failure, just as it has been elsewhere.

It's only been an abysmal failure within the limited purview of a particularly aggrieved minority. The unfortunate reality of life is that there will always be victims at whatever age and legislating that age progressively higher only sends the message to the populace that 'We don't trust you and you aren't responsible until such-and-such an age' thereby giving them an out.

If you're old enough to kill for your country, you're old enough to down a shot of whatever to help you get over the stress of having done so

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 2nd June 2012, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

No taxation without intoxication!

Wondering if those Tea Party fellows might've been three-sheets.

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 2nd June 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by tomwaits

I think this is correct. Allowing kids to have a glass of wine at dinnertime or whatever helps encourage moderation. Otherwise teens get this "forbidden fruit" notion about alcohol that makes them think along the lines of "if I can just steal some of dad's whiskey, I can get so wasted!!!" or whatever.

And therein lies the issue; make something "forbidden fruit" (like booze and sex) and do you create a larger issue than you might've had otherwise?

Fitz

Wretched1 · 3rd June 2012, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by TriangleMan

[sidenote] Actually alcohol is legal in Qatar, just tightly controlled. Some hotels have bars and can serve it in their restaurants. [/sidenote]

TY, I stand corrected. I just assumed as we were told we could not drink off post.

1st June 2012, 07:36 PM	#123
Brian-M Daydreamer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Downunder Posts: 4,268	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner Anyone? Anyone? Since it's clearly rediculous according to the OP that people should be able to vote and enlist in the military at 18, it's clearly rediculous that we make people wait until the age of 21 to purchase handguns when they can purchase long guns at 18. Why aren't the Aussies and Europeans more supportive of this clearly supported logic derived from the OP? Because over here we have very tight gun control, so it's a bit of a non-issue for most us. But like drinking, gambling, driving, ect, 18 year-olds can buy handguns here under the same regulations as anyone else. From Wikipedia... Quote: State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms. Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense. I might be remembering this wrong, but I think if the reason is target shooting you have to provide proof of membership in a practice range or gun club, and there aren't that many around, and the "gun collecting" reason only applies for the purchase of antique weapons. For pest control or hunting, you have to either provide proof of ownership of a large amount of rural land, or proof that you have permission from the owner to use the land for hunting or pest control. ETA: These regulations were partially a result of the Port Arthur massacre of 1996. I remember that when the regulations came into effect, for quite a while they had a gun buyback scheme, where the government would buy old weapons back from the public (to get them out of circulation), with an amnesty for unregistered or illegal weapons.
	__________________ "That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim Last edited by Brian-M; 1st June 2012 at 07:44 PM.

1st June 2012, 07:49 PM	#125
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,295	Originally Posted by crimresearch The links don't lie, they show exactly what you fabricated and they show that I never posted those words... you did. You are simply projecting now... nowhere in that thread did I post the words you put in quotes and claimed I said. When challenged for proof in the form of a link or a post number, you simply ran away. Your pretzel logic and outright fabrications aren't believable. Do you have anything either correct or useful on this topic? Go away, the adults are trying to have a discussion.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

1st June 2012, 07:56 PM	#126
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	Originally Posted by I Ratant From our tech reps that worked with Saudi Airlines, they said that once a plane left Saudi airspace, the booze came out. The L-1011s we made for them had "Mecca pointers" in the main cabin, so anyone needing to void his bowels would know when the plane was oriented so the anus wasn't pointing in the wrong direction. Gotta wonder about a diety that would concerned about that. More than likely that was a workplace urban myth. I'd bet the "Mecca pointers" you are describing were so your passengers would know the direction to pray (five times a day).
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660

1st June 2012, 09:46 PM	#127
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,905	Linky to my post in other thread.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

2nd June 2012, 04:27 AM	#128
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,881	I'm still not impressed by those papers. All observational studies with inadequate accounting for confounding for those with actual statistics beyond basic descriptive (that last one has zero analysis whatsoever, "look, the US is average on those things we measured"). The New Zealand study is the only one with the merit of actually looking at the effect of a lowering of the drinking age, however, their analysis is so deeply flawed I'm guessing no statistician actually reviewed the paper. They look at 3 groups of drivers, in two blocks. Since overall, the actual before/after number of deaths is down in each group (except females 18-19, though the effect is small it may just be due to the inerrant variability of the process), they attribute differences between the baseline group and the other groups as due to the change in drinking age, but they fail to look at other unaffected groups. How did the 25-29 y.o. drunk driving deaths changed over the same period? Is it the same as the 20-24? We don't have these numbers. If the change is not the same, shouldn't we attribute that difference to the change in drinking age as well, even though they were not affected by that legislation. Could accident rates for 15-19 year olds dropping slower than the 20-24 y.o. group be attributable to a systemic lack of driving experience? I'm not saying, of course, that alcohol has no effect on driving, but the effect of lowering the drinking age is overestimated by the New Zealand study method of analysis. Culture is a huge aspect of the problem, and, as noted in one of the papers in Tsukasa Buddha's post, bringing the legal drinking age up had no effect on the drinking culture of college students in the US (while consumption reduced in the overall population). So, to tackle that problem, perhaps a different, "local" approach is warranted.
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast Last edited by Jorghnassen; 2nd June 2012 at 04:28 AM.

1st June 2012, 04:16 PM	#121
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	From our tech reps that worked with Saudi Airlines, they said that once a plane left Saudi airspace, the booze came out. The L-1011s we made for them had "Mecca pointers" in the main cabin, so anyone needing to void his bowels would know when the plane was oriented so the anus wasn't pointing in the wrong direction. Gotta wonder about a diety that would concerned about that.

1st June 2012, 04:47 PM	#122
Kestrel Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: DM79 Posts: 4,203	Originally Posted by I Ratant From our tech reps that worked with Saudi Airlines, they said that once a plane left Saudi airspace, the booze came out. The L-1011s we made for them had "Mecca pointers" in the main cabin, so anyone needing to void his bowels would know when the plane was oriented so the anus wasn't pointing in the wrong direction. Gotta wonder about a diety that would concerned about that. The same kind of deity that needs to be praised five times a day?

1st June 2012, 07:42 PM	#124
Sir Robin Goodfellow Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estevan (wear da fox hat) Posts: 2,751	In Canada, to purchase a handgun you must first get your long-gun permit by taking a test, then you can take the restricted firearms test. You need to be in a gun club to acquire a handgun, but you can get one at 18 if you jump through all the hoops.

2nd June 2012, 09:09 AM	#129
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Brian-M ... I remember that when the regulations came into effect, for quite a while they had a gun buyback scheme, where the government would buy old weapons back from the public (to get them out of circulation), with an amnesty for unregistered or illegal weapons. . Those "no questions asked" buy-backs here get a lot of guns off the streets.

2nd June 2012, 09:10 AM	#130
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Robrob More than likely that was a workplace urban myth. I'd bet the "Mecca pointers" you are describing were so your passengers would know the direction to pray (five times a day). . That too... The tossing of all the restrictions -in Arabia- when the plane goes out of Arabia is not a myth though.

2nd June 2012, 02:04 PM	#131
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,545	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam That's not the limit. That's the necessary minimum. I've seen no sure evidence that setting any minimum age stops "under age" drinking. Not at all. In fact, setting arbitrary points creates more problems with those arriving at said arbitrary age than acknowledging the realities of human nature Originally Posted by Soapy Sam by teaching youngsters to drink responsibly when way below 21 or 18 discourages "binge drinking" when they are older. The French model- where kids are allowed increased amounts of wine with meals as they get older , is often mentioned. Giving youngsters the ability to enjoy a drink and know their limits does seem to make sense, just like teaching them about anything else. Absolutely. When a certain age beyond which nothing can be denied is fetishised, you create circumstances ripe for 'reality' television. Laides and gentlemen, I give you MTV's "Campus PD" Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

2nd June 2012, 02:07 PM	#132
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,545	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Having drunk 12, 13, and 14 years olds roaming the streets is not a good idea, but that's the result. Don't believe it'd be any different for your country either, we looked at previous overseas experiments at an 18-year old drinking age and said we could do it better, we couldn't. Sooner or later, people are going to have to be adults with all adult responsibilities and privileges. Some will take up the torch and run with it; some will stumble. The age isn't going to be the deciding factor Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

2nd June 2012, 02:22 PM	#133
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,545	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf If you want to have the issues surrounding teen drinking magnified out of control, drunk teens on the streets, increased drunk driving by teens, teen deaths caused by alcohol overdoses, and alcohol caused vehicle accidents or crime, well then great, lower the drinking age to 18 and you'll get them all. You're kidding me, right? Because under-21s were a huge problem then, right? By that logic, Prohibition should be reintroduced right quick and everything'll be right as rain PDQ Originally Posted by PhantomWolf If you want it kept under control, then keeping it at 20 or 21 is the far better idea. I guess it depends on the sort of society you want to live in. We tried it based on a belief that teens could be trusted and would respect it, and it was an abysmal failure, just as it has been elsewhere. It's only been an abysmal failure within the limited purview of a particularly aggrieved minority. The unfortunate reality of life is that there will always be victims at whatever age and legislating that age progressively higher only sends the message to the populace that 'We don't trust you and you aren't responsible until such-and-such an age' thereby giving them an out. If you're old enough to kill for your country, you're old enough to down a shot of whatever to help you get over the stress of having done so Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

2nd June 2012, 02:26 PM	#134
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,545	Originally Posted by sphenisc No taxation without intoxication! Wondering if those Tea Party fellows might've been three-sheets. Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

2nd June 2012, 02:27 PM	#135
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,545	Originally Posted by tomwaits I think this is correct. Allowing kids to have a glass of wine at dinnertime or whatever helps encourage moderation. Otherwise teens get this "forbidden fruit" notion about alcohol that makes them think along the lines of "if I can just steal some of dad's whiskey, I can get so wasted!!!" or whatever. And therein lies the issue; make something "forbidden fruit" (like booze and sex) and do you create a larger issue than you might've had otherwise? Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

3rd June 2012, 05:56 AM	#136
Wretched1 Student Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Midway between NH and VT Posts: 31	Originally Posted by TriangleMan [sidenote] Actually alcohol is legal in Qatar, just tightly controlled. Some hotels have bars and can serve it in their restaurants. [/sidenote] TY, I stand corrected. I just assumed as we were told we could not drink off post.