|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
6th January 2013, 07:51 PM | #1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 9,008
|
This atheist "me" kept silent
A good friend of mine and an all around good guy often helps me with my computer issues. He's very religious as is my 90 year old mother. Mother adores him.
For Christmas he gave my mother a book written by or about a little boy who says he died and went to heaven only to be sent back. He went further on by telling us that his own daughter after being in a horrible car accident died only to come back four times. She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth. I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone. Had he been anyone else I'm really not sure what if anything I would have said. Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated. As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out. I'm equally certain that this is the only life we have but I'm surrounded by my peers saying Heaven is a great deal better than any situation on earth. I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work. |
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else. |
|
6th January 2013, 07:54 PM | #2 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
|
Sorry for the difficulty for you - they have found a magic thing that, though completely unreal makes them feel good. That usually keeps them held down but most won't ever recognize that - and after they are gone it really doesn't matter.
|
6th January 2013, 07:56 PM | #3 |
Confusion Reactor
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 25,141
|
My best buddy is solid in his belief in part because, he tells me, he had a sort of God's-presence-experience once. He was knocked over by it.
He knows I was raised as a sure-to-become-a-priest Irish Catholic, and then gradually lost religion. He takes amusing swipes at my lack of belief sometimes, but I exchange little jabs at his beliefs with him too. He hopes that someday I will come to Jesus, and figures that I will probably see Hell if I don't. *shrugs* It's cool by me. Almost everyone I know is religious. |
6th January 2013, 10:00 PM | #4 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
6th January 2013, 10:06 PM | #5 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,212
|
|
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
6th January 2013, 10:55 PM | #6 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
|
|
6th January 2013, 11:04 PM | #7 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,504
|
Seconded.
I almost want to be religious. There's a built-in social group, structure, being part of something bigger than oneself, etc. It feels like the only thing that precludes me sometimes is having to believe in the supernatural. I want to be some kind of super warrior-monk... but no matter how hard I try, I can't reconcile that with the image of row-upon-row of grown adults, pretending with all their might, that the supernatural exists! |
__________________
This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key |
|
7th January 2013, 03:59 AM | #8 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,192
|
Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave.
Because that's all religion is. And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip. |
7th January 2013, 04:29 AM | #9 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
|
7th January 2013, 04:31 AM | #10 |
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 42,180
|
Propaganda from a religious. I've never been a believer and I've had a very fun and/or interesting life. My wife is a recovering religious and she's happier now than she ever was when she was depending on her imaginary friend to solve her problems.
"Dear God, there's a truck coming straight at me! Please get me out of this! Yours truly, OnMyKnees." |
__________________
Guns that are instantly available for use are instantly available for misuse. World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Buying conspiracy books is a voluntary tax on stupid. |
|
7th January 2013, 04:33 AM | #11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,580
|
Well, one bit of good news is that, being a non-believer, there is no "religious" obligation for you to "speak up" when nobody is going to thank you for your input anyway. You're not letting down the side. There is no side to let down.
It sounds as if you wish both your good friend and your mother well. Also, you seem to be searching still, albeit not in the religious devotional aisle. Of such facts are non-committal and fully true conversational mortar made, the conversational transition-markers that work so well when the subject is being tactfully changed. There are people in my life with whom I don't discuss religion, just as there are other people in my life with whom I don't discuss politics, and others still with whom I don't discuss sexuality. It's not that religion, politics and sexuality are uninteresting or unimportant to me, but rather that none of them is the totality of my life, nor of anybody else's life whom I know personally. Common ground probably exists, and with a lot of people, maybe even most people. Find the common ground and make your stand there. Come to JREF when you need to be "Unholier than thou." You'll do fine, I'd wager. |
7th January 2013, 04:36 AM | #12 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
|
7th January 2013, 04:37 AM | #13 |
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 42,180
|
|
__________________
Guns that are instantly available for use are instantly available for misuse. World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Buying conspiracy books is a voluntary tax on stupid. |
|
7th January 2013, 04:53 AM | #14 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
|
7th January 2013, 04:55 AM | #15 |
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 42,180
|
|
__________________
Guns that are instantly available for use are instantly available for misuse. World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Buying conspiracy books is a voluntary tax on stupid. |
|
7th January 2013, 05:42 AM | #16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
|
|
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
|
7th January 2013, 05:50 AM | #17 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,192
|
|
7th January 2013, 06:41 AM | #18 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
|
7th January 2013, 06:50 AM | #19 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,980
|
Well, sir, all I can say is that you probably shouldn't feel that a majority view is necessarily the correct one.
If you feel that it is isolating to be the only one around you who thinks differently then at least you can take pride in the fact that your beliefs are genuinely your own. In Britain, where I am from, I tend to have a bit of respect for those who believe in a God when people around them are snickering at them. It doesn't mean they are right, of course. But having beliefs which are different from those around you should not be a source of despondency. |
7th January 2013, 06:54 AM | #20 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,980
|
|
7th January 2013, 07:05 AM | #21 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
|
If it gets on your nerves to be surrounded by people whose coping mechanism is to imagine life is just some preliminary to be endured and got out of the way before the main event, then maybe you should imagine you're living in another culture - India say. If a friend told a story about their daughter almost dying and being told by a group of Hindu gods to go back to earth, you probably wouldn't feel the urge to say you didn't believe it (because of course there wouldn't be the same level of expectation that you would).
|
7th January 2013, 07:16 AM | #22 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,860
|
I find it more interesting to discuss topics on which I disagree with the other party because it allows me to see the weaknesses in my beliefs as well as the rationale behind beliefs that seem irrational to me. The hard part is keeping it civil. For me, this means keeping my beliefs out of the conversation and making it more about theirs; but not picking apart the weaknesses of their argument, but instead finding out why they believe what they believe and what do they really believe. So, my very Catholic mother-in-law and I have lengthy conversations on religion and the state of the Church, and I often come away surprised at how contrary her beliefs are to the church's teachings, but then she is far more rational than the church!
What I find odd is how easy it is to make a conversation completely about the other person without that person asking too many questions about what I believe. Once I realized how easy it is to discuss another's beliefs without revealing my own, it took a lot of the stress out of such conversations.
Quote:
|
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
|
7th January 2013, 07:19 AM | #23 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,860
|
|
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
|
7th January 2013, 07:25 AM | #24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,886
|
Prayer is emotionally satisfying, as is the rest of what many people consider to be their religion.
You have to understand two things before you can fully accept that sentence. First, we are emotional creatures first and foremost; cognition is probably our most recent and, therefore, our least-developed faculty and there's no shame in seeking purely emotional reassurance. We are what we are, and the "rational" person is the abberation. Second, virtually no one believes what their holy book actually says; they believe what they want it to say. To them, therefore, there is no conflict between fact and interpretation. Any given human, even the hardest-core skeptic, is quite capable of fully believing a multitude of mutually-contradictory things. Again, we are what we are. Point being, I guess, is that a little bit of irrational belief isn't going to matter much, so go ahead, if it helps. At the very least, there's no really rational reason to worry about it. |
__________________
I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
|
7th January 2013, 07:28 AM | #25 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,396
|
|
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
|
7th January 2013, 07:33 AM | #26 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,192
|
|
7th January 2013, 07:56 AM | #27 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
|
|
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
|
7th January 2013, 11:11 AM | #28 |
Insert something funny here
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,816
|
If it's the truth, as he, I and other atheists believe, why does it matter if it's depressing or not? I can't imagine believing in something just because it's comforting. That's convincing yourself to believe in a lie.
Besides, from my point of view, believing that all my friends and family who don't believe and practice that belief in the correct way will be tortured for all eternity sounds a lot more depressing to me. |
7th January 2013, 11:58 AM | #29 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,860
|
|
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
|
7th January 2013, 01:52 PM | #30 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,580
|
Dr K
Quote:
|
7th January 2013, 02:38 PM | #31 |
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 42,180
|
|
__________________
Guns that are instantly available for use are instantly available for misuse. World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Buying conspiracy books is a voluntary tax on stupid. |
|
7th January 2013, 07:35 PM | #32 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,504
|
What? What do statistics have to do with anything? Statistical analysis is a tool. Applied against a good data set, in can be an illuminating tool.
Are you suggesting the Bible is a good data set for anything?
Quote:
Quote:
... I'd accept simulating entities as supernatural creatures, since they are outside the nature defined for us. However, for them, the supernatural is just pushed back a stage. I still don't believe in the supernatural, certainly not as many feel it to act. |
__________________
This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key |
|
7th January 2013, 08:38 PM | #33 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
Yahweh as depecited in the bible isn't actualy that powerful. At this stage about the only things that yahweh can do that we can't is construct lifeforms and build planets. Given the likely number of planets in the universe and the likely number of civilisations as a result stasticaly we would expect some out there to have that level of ability.
|
7th January 2013, 08:41 PM | #34 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
If you accept its possible to create a simulation which can contain conscious entities which are unaware that they are in a simulation then depending on how you run the numbers it is possible to argue that we are more likely than not to be living in such a simulation. The trick is not to care.
|
7th January 2013, 08:58 PM | #35 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,212
|
|
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
7th January 2013, 09:19 PM | #36 |
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,831
|
|
7th January 2013, 09:58 PM | #37 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,504
|
Wait... if I accept it's possible...
Again, what does that have to do with anything? It is possible that we're not living in a simulation. It's also possible that not only are we living in a simulation, but that our simulators are living in a simulation! I've lost track of your point... Were you being sarcastic? Are you arguing for, or against, the existence of supernatural entities? |
__________________
This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key |
|
8th January 2013, 02:11 AM | #38 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
Depending on how you argue the maths that is extremely unlikely.
Quote:
Quote:
|
8th January 2013, 04:44 AM | #39 |
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 42,180
|
|
__________________
Guns that are instantly available for use are instantly available for misuse. World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Buying conspiracy books is a voluntary tax on stupid. |
|
8th January 2013, 06:01 AM | #40 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,980
|
He's using an argument that was made by Nick Bostrom called the simulation argument, which argues that if it is possible to create conscious simulations that are indisinguishable from the world we live in today then the likelihood of us living in one of those simulations is enormous, because future human beings would be playing such simulations just as people today play Sim City (is that old now?) or Civilization.
http://www.simulation-argument.com/ |
Thread Tools | |
|
|