iPhone 5

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Polar bears may or may not drink coke. It is a side issue.

No it's not. Polar Bears do not drink Coke, yet according to Coke adverts, the company are suggesting they do - if we take the ad at face value. Are coke making unsubstantiated, ridiculous claims?

Originally Posted by Hungry81

You asked me to present one claim that apple made that they couldn't substantiate. I did so. Apple has engaged in deceptive advertising practices at least since their Mac vs pc campaign. If Apple are going to sell their products on such claims they should be prepared to be called out on the stupidity of these claims. Isn't that one reason why this forum exists in the first place?

I would suggest that no sceptic in their right mind would suggest that Apple are claiming to have broken the laws of physics in that advert. It is a whimsical advert designed to emphasise that they have made the iPhone 5 larger and thinner. It's not deceptive, because nobody actually thinks for one minute Apple are claiming to have rewritten the laws of physics - apart from you, apparently.

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Even if nobody really believes these claims it speaks volumes that bereft of any real recent new features or innovation, Apple has to pad their adds out with this fluff.

I believe 100% that the claim by Apple that the iPhone 5 is thinner and larger. Is it 'fluff' to advertise that your new phone is thinner, lighter and larger than your previous model?

Originally Posted by Hungry81

No its the part about it defying physics that I was pointing out.
Again I was asked to produce one example of apple making unsubstantiated claims. That's one I pulled out off the top of my head

Even if no one takes it seriously its still an example of a unsubstantiated claim, just like every time they call their devices "magic" or "revolutionary", but I can find others examples once I get time. (I'm at work now)

The claim is not that the laws of physics have been broken, but that the iPhone 5 is thinner and larger than previous models.

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Look I'm not using it as the conclusion of some killer argument. I was asked to provide evidence of apple making an unsupported claim and I did.

No you didn't. You singled out the whimsical element of an advert and used that as a strawman.

Originally Posted by Hungry81

I freely acknowledge ads sometimes exaggerate or outright lie, just like the s2 add that implies the phone can survive and continue working after being submerged in a fishbowl. Yes it may be a silly example, but its from a silly ad,

Oh, that's OK then, if it's Samsung. Free pass, eh?

Samsung can suggest that their phone can survive immersion in water - which is a demonstrably false claim - but Apple aren't allowed to jokingly claim to have broken the laws of physics in order to highlight that their product IS thinner and larger?

Originally Posted by Hungry81

if you want to move the goalposts that's fine, I can find unsubstantiated claims that do not come from their ads

Nobody here has moved any goalposts. We asked you to provide and example of an unsubstantiated claim from Apple - you didn't. Instead, you provided a silly example where you know (I'd hope) that Apple were being whimsical, and chose to focus on that.

[Hungry81]

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

No it's not. Polar Bears do not drink Coke, yet according to Coke adverts, the company are suggesting they do - if we take the ad at face value. Are coke making unsubstantiated, ridiculous claims?

actually its claiming the animated intelligent/tame coke polar bear mascot drinks coke. They don't say polar bears drink coke.
Yes nit picky I know but surely we can criticise/defend them in another thread.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

I would suggest that no sceptic in their right mind would suggest that Apple are claiming to have broken the laws of physics in that advert. It is a whimsical advert designed to emphasise that they have made the iPhone 5 larger and thinner. It's not deceptive, because nobody actually thinks for one minute Apple are claiming to have rewritten the laws of physics - apart from you, apparently.

Whether people believe them or not is not the issue. The issue is that its a stupid thing to say in a stupid add that if asked to back up they could not. Stating its not deceptive because people do not believe it is just creating excuses. You find it whimsical, I find it dumb.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

I believe 100% that the claim by Apple that the iPhone 5 is thinner and larger. Is it 'fluff' to advertise that your new phone is thinner, lighter and larger than your previous model?



The claim is not that the laws of physics have been broken, but that the iPhone 5 is thinner and larger than previous models.



No you didn't. You singled out the whimsical element of an advert and used that as a strawman.

Well I don't think it is a straw man, it was a quick "whimsical" response to your request. I have offered to provide other examples and I will. Trouble is any thing I supply now I believe you will criticize along the same lines.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Oh, that's OK then, if it's Samsung. Free pass, eh?

No, you got my context wrong. Even though Samsung meant it as a silly add, it was stupid to do as it may have influenced young children to do the same to their parents phones, or led consumers to believe the phone was water proof/resistant. I mentioned that as an example of an implied unsupportable statement in an add by a company other than apple.
I'm sorry, I agree that it could be interpreted as excusing samsung for the same behaviour that could lead to worse results for consumers.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Samsung can suggest that their phone can survive immersion in water - which is a demonstrably false claim - but Apple aren't allowed to jokingly claim to have broken the laws of physics in order to highlight that their product IS thinner and larger?

They can say what they want, it doesn't matter, its still an unsupported unsubstantiated line whether its meant to be lighthearted or not.
My response was supposed to be fairly light hearted as well. That is why I have offered to locate additional unsubstantiated statements from Apple.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Nobody here has moved any goalposts. We asked you to provide and example of an unsubstantiated claim from Apple - you didn't. Instead, you provided a silly example where you know (I'd hope) that Apple were being whimsical, and chose to focus on that.

Yes I know its just a way to end an ad, and no one requires proof because everyone knows they were not being serious, and that no intelligent person would believe that they believe that the iPhone defies physics.

But its still unsubstantiated, even though it doesn't need to be substantiated, because its rediculous. Yes I know I'm being a pedantic bastard.

I'll try and get some stronger examples together in the next day or so.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Polar bears may or may not drink coke. It is a side issue.
You asked me to present one claim that apple made that they couldn't substantiate. I did so. Apple has engaged in deceptive advertising practices at least since their Mac vs pc campaign. If Apple are going to sell their products on such claims they should be prepared to be called out on the stupidity of these claims. Isn't that one reason why this forum exists in the first place?

Even if nobody really believes these claims it speaks volumes that bereft of any real recent new features or innovation, Apple has to pad their adds out with this fluff.

1. It's clear they are talking about a bigger screen, and a thinner profile.
2. They don't actually claim the phone violates the laws of physiscs
3. It's called , at worst, hyperbole

Dislike apple, like android, I don't care. But using the below advertisement to claim that apple is making "unsubstantiated and over the top claims about their own superiority" is silly.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

There are laws to physics, right ? So explain this...
How can something get bigger (shows screen) and smaller (shows profile)
There's more of it (shows screen) and less of it (shows profile again)
Well, I guess the laws of physics are like general guidelines...

[OCaptain]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

I don't think so. As you have mentioned phones, especially android phones come in a variety of shapes and sizes, portability is not regressing, infact it is improving, while screen sizes in some phones are large, the weight is still quite low, and whilst large, many people still find them quite comfortable and easy to carry around.

Since you like anecdotes here's mine.
My wife and my sister both have S3 phones. My wife finds it no more difficult to carry than her s1 (keeps it in her handbag) and my sister prefers the S3 over her old iPhone 4 and her husband's 4s. I have 2 other friends that use S3s and are happy with them. The others use a mix of Nokia's and iPhones. I currently use a htc hd2 for work and a stock EVO 3d for personal use. Both are great phones and are fun to use. The 3d videos and photos seem to work well.

As Americans are getting larger, it makes sense that our phones at least try to keep up.

[OCaptain]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

I'm not arguing against acquisitions. I acknowledge that both companies buy out other companies to enhance their own products or stop others from being able to enhance their own. The difference is Apple and its fans use how "innovative" Apple is as a selling point. When in reality their innovative side is far outweighed by their acumen in business acquisition and marketing.

Apple is not evil its just they are no where near as good as they claim.

Is it not possible for both to be true? Can't Apple be innovative and still have purchased the company who first made Siri?

Usually trying to to force fit a binary choice into a situation like that fails.

[OCaptain]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

No its the part about it defying physics that I was pointing out.
Again I was asked to produce one example of apple making unsubstantiated claims. That's one I pulled out off the top of my head

Even if no one takes it seriously its still an example of a unsubstantiated claim, just like every time they call their devices "magic" or "revolutionary", but I can find others examples once I get time. (I'm at work now)

Do you really think that Apple believes they've broken the laws of physics?

[OCaptain]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Look I'm not using it as the conclusion of some killer argument.

Oh, good. Whew! I'm relieved.

[John Albert]

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

"There's an app for that... only on the iPhone."

As if the iPhone was the only phone that had apps for things like weather, book shopping and photograph management. Back in 2009, Windows Mobile and Blackberry had apps that did the same kinds of things. Apps are not an exclusive feature of iPhones, as Apple claimed in its ads.

[kajata]

Originally Posted by John Albert

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

"There's an app for that... only on the iPhone."

As if the iPhone was the only phone that had apps for things like weather, book shopping and photograph management. Back in 2009, Windows Mobile and Blackberry had apps that did the same kinds of things. Apps are not an exclusive feature of iPhones, as Apple claimed in its ads.

I'm guessing when that commercial was made (it's for the 3G or 3GS) those specific apps were exclusive to the iPhone.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by John Albert

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

"There's an app for that... only on the iPhone."

As if the iPhone was the only phone that had apps for things like weather, book shopping and photograph management. Back in 2009, Windows Mobile and Blackberry had apps that did the same kinds of things. Apps are not an exclusive feature of iPhones, as Apple claimed in its ads.

Those specific apps were exclusive to the iphone.

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Let’s be honest; there were such things as 3rd party add-ons (games and widgets) available for download to WAP enabled phones as far back as 2003 as far as I’m aware. What Apple did is one of the things they do best; take an existing rough concept then drastically improve and streamline it until it becomes revolutionary. As an example, imagine bicycles didn’t exist and then someone develops and sells a unicycle, with limited consumer acceptance. Apple sees the potential in the idea and develops it into a Honda Goldwing Motorbike.

While Apple didn’t invent downloading 3rd party software to a phone, they did develop the ‘App Store’ concept to the standard it is today, and they were way ahead of anyone else at the time.

[Hungry81]

Ok Thanks for your patience. I finally got a chance to suffer through some Apple ads.

Yes, they are not for the iphone, but I haven't found anything specifically in the iphone ads that would qualify as unsubstantiated claims (so far.....) But I also have not found anything that could be considered new or innovative either(boom tish). Anyway taking a very loose definition of "recent" I present these Mac vs "PC" adds which are full of opinionated and unsubstantiated drivel (Although they can sometimes be annoyingly humerous, damn you Apples marketing department)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCL5UgxtoLs

Ill also play what is almost the Apple version of Godwins law card (Although it does not mean you win) and quote the "holding it wrong" response to iphone 4s with dodgy reception as massively unsubstantiated AND as a bonus wildcard, the software upgrade Apple provided for the 4s that claimed to endow it with 4g capability. (Probrobly less a claim and more dishonest marketing/incompetent programming error that did not get picked up)

Ive noticed that the iphone adds simply state what the phone can do and merely imply that no other phone is as capable, which probably does not meet the definition of unsubstantiated claims.

I will present more evidence when or if I find it, and if you have dificulty finding the unsubstantiated claims in the Mac vs pc ads let me know and I'll try to explain later.

[asydhouse]

Far more egregious are the ads in cinemas that make some whiskey out to be like a dmt trip!

Doesn't everyone take modern advertising as a sort of art form that isn't a serious representation of the product? Whimsy is the name of the game!

[TheL8Elvis]

Thanks for the link to the funny advertisements.

I don't understand why you are going down this road ... certainly you can find something better to dislike about apple and pick on then their advertising ?

And can you provide a link to this:
the software upgrade Apple provided for the 4s that claimed to endow it with 4g capability.

[carlitos]

My 4s has 4g capability. That's one the big reasons I got it - I live in an area with lousy 3G signal.

[Hungry81]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Thanks for the link to the funny advertisements.

I don't understand why you are going down this road ... certainly you can find something better to dislike about apple and pick on then their advertising ?

And can you provide a link to this:
the software upgrade Apple provided for the 4s that claimed to endow it with 4g capability.

I disliked the way they were dishonest in their ads. (yes other ads have dishonesty, but they don't generate the same amount of hype over very little.) I never managed to go for the artificial enthusiasim or hype and despite using macs in the past, (at various friends houses and at school there was a couple of computer rooms full of them) I never actually found anything special about them. They did their job yes, but why should I pay extra for a computer that does nothing extra?
I never actually went along with the idea that they are status symbols. Why should they be? What makes them deserving of the hype?

The thing that amazed me the most is how many people seemed to fall for Apple grouping all other brands together into a singular "PC" rival, and then advertise features that macs had that this mythical "PC" rival supposedly did not have. (Despite many individual brands having varients of these features.) I also never found the imac brand very attractive (Especially the first couple of generations, just big awkwardly shaped pyramid on its side), or very practical.

I also like being able to upgrade individual components every few years if I feel like it (Although my last PC lasted about 6 years without a upgrade except for when I replaced the power supply unit that died from dust related reasons)

Anyway it appears I incorrectly projected my experiences from their mac ads onto their iphone ads, sorry about that. (Although I still do not like the iphone ads) So ill try to get back on topic.
A link to a 4s 4g story: http://www.macworld.com/article/1165...s_network.html

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

I disliked the way they were dishonest in their ads. (yes other ads have dishonesty, but they don't generate the same amount of hype over very little.) I never managed to go for the artificial enthusiasim or hype and despite using macs in the past, (at various friends houses and at school there was a couple of computer rooms full of them) I never actually found anything special about them. They did their job yes, but why should I pay extra for a computer that does nothing extra?
I never actually went along with the idea that they are status symbols. Why should they be? What makes them deserving of the hype?

We could discuss that in another thread, but I would just say - You don't like macs, you don't see the value, don't buy one.

Originally Posted by Hungry81

The thing that amazed me the most is how many people seemed to fall for Apple grouping all other brands together into a singular "PC" rival, and then advertise features that macs had that this mythical "PC" rival supposedly did not have. (Despite many individual brands having varients of these features.) I also never found the imac brand very attractive (Especially the first couple of generations, just big awkwardly shaped pyramid on its side), or very practical.

I also like being able to upgrade individual components every few years if I feel like it (Although my last PC lasted about 6 years without a upgrade except for when I replaced the power supply unit that died from dust related reasons)

You're clearly not the target audience, and that's fine. Apple didn't have a very large target audience for their computers, so it's not surprising.

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Anyway it appears I incorrectly projected my experiences from their mac ads onto their iphone ads, sorry about that. (Although I still do not like the iphone ads) So ill try to get back on topic.
A link to a 4s 4g story: http://www.macworld.com/article/1165...s_network.html

Thanks for the link. I didn't know they did that. I agree, that's some ********.

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Anyway it appears I incorrectly projected my experiences from their mac ads onto their iphone ads, sorry about that. (Although I still do not like the iphone ads) So ill try to get back on topic.
A link to a 4s 4g story: http://www.macworld.com/article/1165...s_network.html

I agree it's not completely honest, but given that it only concerns AT&T iPhone 4S models, and appears to be partly driven by AT&T, I won't lose any sleep over it. I don't know about the US, but Apple in UK certainly never advertised the 4S as being 4G capable when it was released. Probably because we didn't get 4G until Dec 2012.

Apple are no worse than any other handset manufacturer when it comes to advertising - in many cases they are more straightforward. Apple ads in the UK tend to be practical with an element of whimsy sometimes; they tend to focus on a certain feature and demonstrate it being used in an everyday situation. A lot of other smartphone ads in the UK seem to suggest that their product is life-changing, your world should revolve around it, and you're not a complete person without one. Contrast the two adverts below:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtm4ySJQPOc

Yes, panorama apps were available before the iPhone 5, but Apple are simply demonstrating that it's now built-in, and easy to use. Simple, clean, no fuss.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfV6uh3kTs

"It understands you..", "Shares what's in your heart..", "It waits until you're asleep.." - is this an advert for a smartphone or a new girlfriend? I'd say at best, that's some pretty vomit inducing hyperbole, and at worst if I took these claims as seriously as you took Apple's 'claim' to have broken the laws of physics then I'd be raging!