A disclaimer is needed for the homeopathic OD demo - Page 2

Beerina · 21st June 2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

which homeopaths rebrand conventional medicine? This isn't one I've heard of before.

I have. Way back when when Randi had his old weekly newsletter, he planned such a "suicide" demo, and I suggested he be careful lest some homeopeth be less than reputable and include real narcotics.

Of course nowadays Benadryl is the narcotic of choice and if you take too much it actually buzzes you back up.

bouch · 21st June 2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by JihadJane

This must rank as one of the most bizarre and pointless demonstrations ever conceived, because no homeopath would expect a whole box of pills to have any different an effect than taking just one pill.

Really? Can you explain the logic behind this?

Originally Posted by JihadJane

It doesn't even demonstrate that. It's just one dose. You could take one dose of antibiotics rather than a full course but the lack of effects wouldn't demonstrate the inefficacy of antibiotics.

But now you've switched the medication, and the expectations. No doctor would claim that one dose of antibiotics will cure the disease.

However, If I took ONE sleeping pill, I would expect it to make me drowsy, much like I would expect ONE Tylenol to relieve the pain of a headache.

Soapy Sam · 18th July 2012, 06:51 AM

When I took part in a similar demo, a couple of years ago, we followed it up with handouts explaining what actually is in homoeopathic pills.Numerous people were shocked to realise they were paying several hundred times the supermarket price for sugar. The fact there is no active ingredient in the "pillules" is what the demo illustrates. What's left is cheap filler, at a ludicrous price. Jane, this is fraud, targetting people who are often too afraid, or too poor to seek real medical advice. I'd expect you to be in favour of debunking it.

edd · 16th November 2012, 10:33 AM

I'm in no way in favour of homeopathy but people are paying for the sugar to have gone through a particular ritual, and it isn't surprising that people pay otherwise absurd prices for it. I'm not sure I'd call it fraud to sell 'holy water' at a high price for example, and certainly not for someone to pay extra for a hypothetical product that was identical to some other product but was made in an ethically preferable way for example.
Homeopaths are misleading intentionally or not about the efficacy of their product but they're typically honest about its means of production, are they not?
And if people choose to pay more for that production method they should be free to do so, even if I personally consider them nuts for it.
Edit to clarify further: I think the key problem is lack of efficacy not lack of active ingredient.

Beerina · 16th November 2012, 10:50 AM

As with anything else, the final question is, "Does it work?"

Repeated, and I mean repeated, testing shows it doesn't. At what point does it turn into active, knowing fraud?

At what point does it turn into willful ignorance and thus malpractice?

DallasDad · 16th November 2012, 12:01 PM

I don't get the people who think that Randi's stunt just proves that he doesn't understand homeopathy. They seem to be saying that because homeopathy works on dilutions, that taking a whole bottle of sleeping pills would have the effect of a stimulant. Where this breaks down, of course, is that by the same logic, taking none at all is the same as a deadly overdose.

Edx · 8th January 2013, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Pup

A more subtle stunt, which fewer people would get but which would more accurate mock homoepathic theory, would be to properly dilute a dose far beyond the recommended number of times, and then take that without effect.

Someone did that on YT with bleach!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Mojo · 9th January 2013, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Edx

Someone did that on YT with bleach!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

See also: http://crispian-jago.blogspot.co.uk/...nk-my-own.html

Edx · 9th January 2013, 06:51 AM

lol nice, but urine probably isnt as toxic as bleach (indeed some crazy people drink urine regularly because they're crazy) so I like that better for real shock factor

21st June 2012, 12:35 PM	#41
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Lamuella which homeopaths rebrand conventional medicine? This isn't one I've heard of before. I have. Way back when when Randi had his old weekly newsletter, he planned such a "suicide" demo, and I suggested he be careful lest some homeopeth be less than reputable and include real narcotics. Of course nowadays Benadryl is the narcotic of choice and if you take too much it actually buzzes you back up.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

21st June 2012, 12:42 PM	#42
bouch Student Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 42	Originally Posted by JihadJane This must rank as one of the most bizarre and pointless demonstrations ever conceived, because no homeopath would expect a whole box of pills to have any different an effect than taking just one pill. Really? Can you explain the logic behind this? Originally Posted by JihadJane It doesn't even demonstrate that. It's just one dose. You could take one dose of antibiotics rather than a full course but the lack of effects wouldn't demonstrate the inefficacy of antibiotics. But now you've switched the medication, and the expectations. No doctor would claim that one dose of antibiotics will cure the disease. However, If I took ONE sleeping pill, I would expect it to make me drowsy, much like I would expect ONE Tylenol to relieve the pain of a headache.
bouch Student Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 42	__________________ Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive!

18th July 2012, 06:51 AM	#43
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	When I took part in a similar demo, a couple of years ago, we followed it up with handouts explaining what actually is in homoeopathic pills.Numerous people were shocked to realise they were paying several hundred times the supermarket price for sugar. The fact there is no active ingredient in the "pillules" is what the demo illustrates. What's left is cheap filler, at a ludicrous price. Jane, this is fraud, targetting people who are often too afraid, or too poor to seek real medical advice. I'd expect you to be in favour of debunking it.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

16th November 2012, 10:33 AM	#44
edd Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,550	I'm in no way in favour of homeopathy but people are paying for the sugar to have gone through a particular ritual, and it isn't surprising that people pay otherwise absurd prices for it. I'm not sure I'd call it fraud to sell 'holy water' at a high price for example, and certainly not for someone to pay extra for a hypothetical product that was identical to some other product but was made in an ethically preferable way for example. Homeopaths are misleading intentionally or not about the efficacy of their product but they're typically honest about its means of production, are they not? And if people choose to pay more for that production method they should be free to do so, even if I personally consider them nuts for it. Edit to clarify further: I think the key problem is lack of efficacy not lack of active ingredient.
edd Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,550	__________________ When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz Last edited by edd; 16th November 2012 at 10:35 AM.

16th November 2012, 10:50 AM	#45
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	As with anything else, the final question is, "Does it work?" Repeated, and I mean repeated, testing shows it doesn't. At what point does it turn into active, knowing fraud? At what point does it turn into willful ignorance and thus malpractice?
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 16th November 2012 at 10:51 AM.

16th November 2012, 12:01 PM	#46
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 688	I don't get the people who think that Randi's stunt just proves that he doesn't understand homeopathy. They seem to be saying that because homeopathy works on dilutions, that taking a whole bottle of sleeping pills would have the effect of a stimulant. Where this breaks down, of course, is that by the same logic, taking none at all is the same as a deadly overdose.
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 688

9th January 2013, 06:51 AM	#49
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,242	lol nice, but urine probably isnt as toxic as bleach (indeed some crazy people drink urine regularly because they're crazy) so I like that better for real shock factor
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,242	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist