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Noztradamus · 13th November 2012, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by joolz

To paraphrase Groucho (badly), 'there is no sanity clause' on JREF.

Very badly. It was Chico who said that

joolz · 13th November 2012, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by John Mekki

I do not think that a pilot driving his plane against a boat is veyr much intelligent.

Everything seems either black or white for you, as Zigg pointed out. You don't see that the circumstances are crucial to making your decision.

I would not fly my plane into a boat full of supporters of a rival football team.

I would fly my plane into a boat if the boat was chasing my kids and the people in it were pirates shooting at my kids. I'd kill 'them' [the crooks] to save 'us' [my family].

Wouldn't you protect your kids like that? If you would sink the boat to save them, as I would, then you are saying you are not very intelligent. Or maybe you would you let them be killed just to prove your OP?

joolz · 13th November 2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

Very badly. It was Chico who said that

I should have noticed that the response 'ain't no santa claus/sanity clause' works better with an Italian accent. And to prove it...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

John Mekki · 15th November 2012, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Yes, you and your kids are "us" and him and his kids are "them".

His kids would die in war, my kids would be safe in my house.
Fine for me

Originally Posted by joolz

I have no idea, the US certainly does some weird things, you failed to address my point on cognitive dissonance, you failed to say whether you'd choose to stand by while Bin Laden's successor invades your country.

As it is a strawman

Originally Posted by joolz

You refer to Iraq, if you don't see things as us/them then presumably you see Al Quaida as 'us' too, [..]

To be honest, yes, I see many of the posters in this forum have ways of thinking not far from those of AlQaeda, yes.

Originally Posted by joolz

Perhaps because you are locked into your misconceptions, if you aren't prepared to consider you may be wrong then you probably have a hard time understanding any other viewpoint. I'll explain again:

Please

Originally Posted by joolz

I said that if you don't see the world in terms of us/them (as you claimed) then you consider Bin Laden and Hitler as one with yourself and your kids.

We humans happen to share all 99.9% of our genes, if this is what you are meaning.
You, me, Hitler and Osama included, I fear.

Originally Posted by joolz

If that truly is your view (and you seem reluctant to answer that point) then I was merely congratulating you on being one of the few people in the world with that mentality.

I think most biologists would agree with me on the above.

Originally Posted by joolz

If you had read the sentence you snipped, you will see that I agree with Ziggurat but stated that there are extremes of that mentality that are not desirable. The them/us mentality is not always justified, but your inference that it 'is a bad thing' unconditionally is worse as it would lead to people not caring for their own kids etc.

I would disagree that 47 millions Americans on food stamps represent such an "extreme"

Originally Posted by joolz

Is English your first language? You don't seem clear on the meaning of 'extreme'. Yes, millions of people suffering is extreme, and yet you added a question mark to that statement? Are you unsure? Are you saying you think it is normal?

Unfortunately, it is.
There are millions, well, hundreds of millions of people in this world suffering.
War are not the exception, but the norm.
Then it all depends how you want to use the word "extreme"

Originally Posted by joolz

People tend to avoid answering a direct question when they know they are wrong. Yet again you are just listing random examples of extreme us/them behaviour instead of answering.

And here we go again.
What do you mean by "extreme"?
Unusual? Unnatural?
Well.. wars are not at all unusual neither innatural.

Originally Posted by joolz

I'll ask it again in simple words... do you think your ancestors nurtured their children in preference to other people's children? Your answer should be 'yes' as you have stated that you intend to do this too. Please confirm.

Basically yes, but what has this to do with the "us vs them" mentality?

Originally Posted by joolz

This 'defence' of the OP is actually either laughable or very sad. You emphasise 'my' and 'your' and don't seem to connect with the fact that you are referring directly to 'us' [your family] and 'them' [my family]. You are treating 'my' and 'your' differently, therefore you are applying 'us' and 'them' mentality, ergo, you define yourself as 'a stupid "us vs them" believer' - your words, not mine.

Why you are talking about "family" here?

Originally Posted by joolz

It proves, yet again, that you do have the us/them mentality that you claim not to have.

You are always stretching the argument to the.. err.. extreme to prove something that I did not say.
Why talk about families when I was mainly (only) talking about big groups and countries?

Originally Posted by joolz

It's blatantly obvious that you, like almost every other person on the planet, has evolved to see your own kids as 'us' and other people's kids as 'them'. You have evolved to care for your kids, but let mine die. I understand your position, it is quite normal, I take no offence as it's the way we evolved. You prove my point yet again.

I see that for you "kids" are very important and I appreciate this, but please try to read more of what I write

Originally Posted by joolz

The only way you could believe in your own OP would be not to prioritise your own kids.

Kids.. again

John Mekki · 15th November 2012, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by joolz

Everything seems either black or white for you, as Zigg pointed out. You don't see that the circumstances are crucial to making your decision.

I am happy that you see very well the "circumstances" that lead 47 millions Americans on food stamps, but I am mostly happy not having to rely on them

Originally Posted by joolz

I would not fly my plane into a boat full of supporters of a rival football team.

Great.
This is already something.
It happens somehow that there are quite some people that would do just that.
They are the ones (among others) I was talking about

Originally Posted by joolz

I would fly my plane into a boat if the boat was chasing my kids and the people in it were pirates shooting at my kids. I'd kill 'them' [the crooks] to save 'us' [my family].

Good.
Agreed on that.
Now, the 5000 US soldiers that died in Iraq were not fighting anyone who was threatening their families.
Nor the 250000 Nazi soldiers who died in Stalingrad.
For some people the above soldiers were heroes who died for their Country.
For others, they were just a bunch of idiots who were embued in the "us vs them" mentality.
We have different opinions here.
ADDED
If I may, I believe that the 5000 US soldiers that died in Iraq or the people who fly planes into buildings are not among the smartest people in the universe.
I hope I will not offend anyone` s patriotic sensibility with this.

Originally Posted by joolz

Wouldn't you protect your kids like that?

If you talk only about kids, kids, kids, kids all the time I will not answer you anymore

Please..
There are not only your kids in this world.

John Mekki · 15th November 2012, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No you weren't. You were spouting random facts with no argument presented at all to indicate their relevance.
[..]

Ah.. OK

Wudang · 15th November 2012, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by John Mekki

His kids would die in war, my kids would be safe in my house.
Fine for me

Because for you, all you care about is "us and them". The irony in this thread is setting a new record for JREF.

tsig · 15th November 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by DragonLady

Ughm...not to be argumentative, but reading your OP makes me think otherwise. You outlined quite the long list of thems, and their behaviors.

Don't feel badly. It's human nature. It's the way our brains are wired, and it's not going to change for many, many, many generations.

The us/them divide passes thru the center of the human brain.

tsig · 15th November 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by John Mekki

It has been here since the beginning of humandkind, I assume.
And it is, in my opinion, the most stupid kind of mentality that you can have.
It is the “Us” vs. “Them” mentality.
It is a way of thinking shared by millions (billions?) of people all over the world, maybe the majority of humankind.
In simple words, people believe that their side is the “good” one and the other side is the “bad” one.
By principle.
No matter what.
Such people use different criteria to judge actions, based on either it is “our” side that does it, or the “other”.
The most striking (stupid?) aspect of such mentality is that people thinking this way are even willing to accept personal losses for the good of “our” side.
I can understand (while do not agree with) people raping, killing and stealing for their own profit.
What I really can not understand people supporting rape, murder and steal when they have nothing to gain from it, or even when they are willing to get a personal loss from their support to the “just cause”.
You do not believe that this happens?
Think twice.

Examples are countless.

Just few decades ago, Japanese kamikaze pilots offered their lives to blew themselves up against US ships during WWII.
Nazi pilots did similar things.
Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were the countries invading other countries during WWII, so hardly you can think to be on the right side when you invade other countries, or so I thought.
And we have no short list of people blowing themselves up in the Middle East for “their side” religious or political agenda
You believe that such examples are kind of extreme and not worth to be considered as the rule?
Maybe most people would not go as far as committing suicide for the good of their “side”, but they would accept other minor kind of losses.
Some (most?) Iranian people are against having a country called Israel not far from their borders.
Why?
The average Iranian would have nothing to lose if their Government recognizes Israel, in fact, they may have much to gain, hopefully some sanctions may be lifted.
Still, many Iranians would not accept that, despite I can see no rational reason why Iranian should oppose in principle to recognition of Israel.
You do not believe that?
I kindly invite you to go and talk in any English-speaking Iranian forum you can find in the internet.
Beware not to insist too much on the question that the Holocaust has happened, I have been banned for this.
You believe only Iranians are extremists?
Think twice.
I also talked with Japanese about the question of WWII and about the crimes of Japanese soldiers in China and Korea (personally)
You would be surprised to know hown many Japanese do not believe that Japan committed any crime during WWII and condone the invasion of China, Korea, and so on..
Of course, howewer, they strongly condemn the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings (I could not find any link in English for this, sorry, as US news sites seem to be only interested in US citizens opinion: http://www.atomicheritage.org/mediaw...a_and_Nagasaki) as from my understanding, Americans, on the other side, still support the bombings
“An August 2009 poll by Quinnipiac University found that 61 percent of Americans supported the bombing, with 22 percent opposed and 16 percent undecided. The poll found a significant gap in opinion based on respondents' ages: 73 percent of those polled over 55 agreed with the bombing, while only 50 percent of those under 34 supported it.”
http://www.atomicheritage.org/mediaw...a_and_Nagasaki
Maybe Japanese people are little bit “strange”?
Please, go to talk with a Chinese and ask him about Mao Zedong, and the “Great Lead Forward” which left some millions of Chinese dead.
Ask him or her why they still have Mao` s face on their notes.
I did and I just got angry replies such as “You are anti-Chinese”, “Go back to your country”, etc.
To be noted that most (all?) of Mao` s policies victims were Chinese people, so you are called "anti-Chinese" for just asking a question about why crimes against other Chinese people happened.
What about Americans and Western people?
They are happy to pay thousands of dollars per year to their military just to keep their dream of being the strongest country on Earth.
In all their movies of war, the "hero" is always American, never a Lithuanian.
The fact that pouring hundreds of billions in the military every year may be one of the reasons why their economy is not exactly doing well and maybe this is why maybe they are losing or at risk to lose their job does not seem to move the majority of US citizens to a more prudent spending.
And what exactly is the advantage for the average US citizen to have a US base in South America or Japan?
Dunno.
Maybe they really believe that invading Iraq or threatening Iran with war were good and moral things, and the 200000 + deaths that the invasion caused may be an acceptable "collateral damage" for having brought "freedom" to Iraq from their once-supported dictatorship of Saddam, but not only that: many of US citizens are even happy to pay thousands of dollars of their own taxes for such "moral actions", and this is a puzzle for me, as what the average US citizen has to gain from the "liberation" of Iraq and the subsequent sectarian war that brought hundreds of thousands of deaths?
I guess nothing.
And I finish talking about Russians.
I talked to a few of them here in Japan (yes, there are quite a few Russians in Japan) and told them that Putin should not have gone as far as bombing Grozny to bring Chechenya to peace.
I can spare you the comments I received.
Most of the Russians I have talked to (not many, so maybe I was unlucky) were even little bit nostalgic of the good old times when the USSR was a global superpower.
Reminding them that during those times there were mass famines who killed thousands (Russian citizens exactly like them!) did not seem to shake their opinion
I still have to talk with people from New Zealand, but I did have a chat with one friend of Rwanda few years ago, who blamed all African troubles on colonialism.
The fact that most Africans seem to be perfectly able to kill each other with little Western support did not change much his idea that African do not have much responsibility for African problems.
It is the West who is to blame!
Useless to tell him that colonialism in Africa ended decades ago.
I am leaving out Brazilians, Indians, French and Dutch, .. as I do not have much experience with them.

I thought that, in the era of Internet, things may have changed, but it looks like it will still take a while for any real change in people thought to happen.

What is your take on this?

I'm with Us. Those Thems are not to be trusted, have no morals and don't wash. Just as soon as We and Us can get together, the Thems will be eradicated.

joolz · 15th November 2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by John Mekki

His kids would die in war, my kids would be safe in my house.
Fine for me

And you really, truly don't recognise that as your own 'us' and 'them' behaviour?

'They' can go and die, 'we' will be safe? 'They/we' 'Us/them'. Same thing.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

As it is a strawman

No. it was an attempt to get you to confront your own blatant us/them attitude which you ducked again.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

To be honest, yes, I see many of the posters in this forum have ways of thinking not far from those of AlQaeda, yes.

So 'they' think like Al Qaeda, but 'you' don't. 'Them' being different from you again. 'Them' who think like Al Qaeda vs 'us' who don't.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

We humans happen to share all 99.9% of our genes, if this is what you are meaning.
You, me, Hitler and Osama included, I fear.

Yes, we are all human beings, but that doesn't preclude us from looking at subsets of humanity as 'them'. You do it when you look after your kids, ie 'us', and treat other folks' kids differently, ie as 'them'.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

I think most biologists would agree with me on the above.

No, they wouldn't. Biologists are aware of the human instinct to nurture your own (ie us/them behaviour). It's not just a human behaviour.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

I would disagree that 47 millions Americans on food stamps represent such an "extreme".

So why did you include it in the list that you said was extremes of us/them behaviour?

We don't seem to be making progress in your fluctuating definition of extreme, so let's stick to the 'us/them' so we can help you out of your cognitive dissonance and enable you to see that you have the benefit of it the same as the rest of us.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

Quote:

I'll ask it again in simple words... do you think your ancestors nurtured their children in preference to other people's children? Your answer should be 'yes' as you have stated that you intend to do this too. Please confirm.

Basically yes, but what has this to do with the "us vs them" mentality?

Because that IS "us vs them" mentality. We nurture our offspring in preference to offspring of others. "Us vs them" mentality. You prove my point again, you have it, and it's good that you do.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

Why you are talking about "family" here?

Because that, as has been said many times above, is the perfect example of why "us vs them" mentality has been successful in evolution, as Ziggurat stated pages ago. No one is arguing that Nazi us/them mentality is 'good' per se, nor Kamikaze us/them mentality, whether you understand their behaviour or not.

Not one person posting here against your OP has said that us/them mentality is unconditionally good. I'd guess that the vast majority are very pleased that the Nazis failed, but, equally, you cannot claim that it is unconditionally bad, so bad that you want to eradicate it from you own way of thinking.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

You are always stretching the argument to the.. err.. extreme to prove something that I did not say.

Incorrect. You have given many examples of your us/them thinking, but when posters present with your own evidence you deny it.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

Why talk about families when I was mainly (only) talking about big groups and countries?

That is probably the root cause of the problem with your OP. You were being selectively narrow in your view of us/them in an attempt to prove an invalid claim.

You failed to consider all aspects of us/them mentality. It is not limited to 'big groups and countries', it operates on many, many levels, right down to the 'me/them' level of thinking. As I've said already, if you support a football team then you have us/them mentality in respect of football. If you have kids then you have us/them mentality in respect of your kids. All beings who have been nurtured by parents have benefited from the us/them mentality of past generations.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

I see that for you "kids" are very important and I appreciate this, but please try to read more of what I write

Perhaps you should read more of what I write as I've already asked you not to make assumptions about me. Kids are not important to me, if they were I'd have had some. 'Kids' are merely a tool to prove that us/them mentality is good in the nurturing of kids. You have said so many times that you treat your kids above other kids, that is a prime example of your us/them attitude towards kids, and I'm genuinely pleased that you have that attitude as it means your kids have a great start in life

.

Originally Posted by John Mekki

Kids.. again

Yes, because your own kids are proving your OP is wrong. For the sake of your kids I really hope you don't eliminate your us/them mentality and continue to nurture them above all other kids.

You clearly care about your kids, which is why I have used offspring as a way to show you your own 'us/them' mindset. You have even agreed that, if the circumstances were right, you would kill others to protect your children, as most parents probably would.

In post #82 I gave an example of us/them mentality where I would choose to fly my plane into a boat. You seemed to agree that you would do the same as you typed: "Good. Agreed on that." So, from your own computer comes the evidence that us/them mentality has a place in the world for good, even though we probably all agree that it can be destructive when taken to err.... extremes.

joolz · 15th November 2012, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Because for you, all you care about is "us and them". The irony in this thread is setting a new record for JREF.

Maybe we need an irony award, as well as the TLA and pith ones.

John Mekki · 16th November 2012, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by joolz

And you really, truly don't recognise that as your own 'us' and 'them' behaviour?

'They' can go and die, 'we' will be safe? 'They/we' 'Us/them'. Same thing.

No.
Because I did not want them to go to die.
If they are stupid, that is their problem

Originally Posted by joolz

No. it was an attempt to get you to confront your own blatant us/them attitude which you ducked again.

Maybe as you did not understand what us vs them is about

Originally Posted by joolz

So 'they' think like Al Qaeda, but 'you' don't. 'Them' being different from you again. 'Them' who think like Al Qaeda vs 'us' who don't.

And where is my responsibility if they think like AlQaeda?

Originally Posted by joolz

Yes, we are all human beings, but that doesn't preclude us from looking at subsets of humanity as 'them'. You do it when you look after your kids, ie 'us', and treat other folks' kids differently, ie as 'them'.

I do not want any kid to go to die.
But if not-so-smart American parents send them to die in Iraq, what am I supposed to do?

Originally Posted by joolz

No, they wouldn't. Biologists are aware of the human instinct to nurture your own (ie us/them behaviour). It's not just a human behaviour.

Wrong.
In nature the animal/person who collaborates survives.
Many US soldiers who went to war in Iraq perished.
This is a fact

Originally Posted by joolz

So why did you include it in the list that you said was extremes of us/them behaviour?

I did not say extremes, I said examples

Originally Posted by joolz

Because that IS "us vs them" mentality. We nurture our offspring in preference to offspring of others. "Us vs them" mentality. You prove my point again, you have it, and it's good that you do.

This is what you seem unable to grasp.
I ask you again, if "We nurture our offspring in preference to offspring of others.", then why US parents sent their kids to die in Iraq?

Originally Posted by joolz

Because that, as has been said many times above, is the perfect example of why "us vs them" mentality has been successful in evolution, as Ziggurat stated pages ago.

In a certain sense I agree, it was successful but not for the US kids who died in Iraq.
It was successful if we consider that maybe they were not so smart as they went to die in Iraq, so in general the gene pool of humankind may have improved from the removal from our gene pool of the genes of 5000 not-so-smart guys.
This I can agreed on.
Same can be said about the removal of hundreds of kamikaze soldiers and so on..
But for the parents of the soldiers who died in Iraq, the "us vs them" mentality was not successful as they saw their kids die.
And we will agree that having your son to die may not be considered as a success (I would not)

John Mekki · 16th November 2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by joolz

In post #82 I gave an example of us/them mentality where I would choose to fly my plane into a boat. You seemed to agree that you would do the same as you typed: "Good. Agreed on that." So, from your own computer comes the evidence that us/them mentality has a place in the world for good, even though we probably all agree that it can be destructive when taken to err.... extremes.

Well.. I may agree up to a point.
That is, unfortunately people using the "us vs them" mentality kill also other people who do not use "us vs them" mentality in the process.
See the people who drove planes into the Twin Towers, they killed people there who may have been good people

Hallo Alfie · 16th November 2012, 02:08 PM

This a parody thread, right?

fuelair · 16th November 2012, 03:13 PM

Hokay:

Us:Bunch of random people.....

Them!: Giant Ants!!!

13th November 2012, 12:59 PM	#81
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,928	Originally Posted by joolz To paraphrase Groucho (badly), 'there is no sanity clause' on JREF. Very badly. It was Chico who said that
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

15th November 2012, 07:16 AM	#84
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537	Originally Posted by Wudang Yes, you and your kids are "us" and him and his kids are "them". His kids would die in war, my kids would be safe in my house. Fine for me Originally Posted by joolz I have no idea, the US certainly does some weird things, you failed to address my point on cognitive dissonance, you failed to say whether you'd choose to stand by while Bin Laden's successor invades your country. As it is a strawman Originally Posted by joolz You refer to Iraq, if you don't see things as us/them then presumably you see Al Quaida as 'us' too, [..] To be honest, yes, I see many of the posters in this forum have ways of thinking not far from those of AlQaeda, yes. Originally Posted by joolz Perhaps because you are locked into your misconceptions, if you aren't prepared to consider you may be wrong then you probably have a hard time understanding any other viewpoint. I'll explain again: Please Originally Posted by joolz I said that if you don't see the world in terms of us/them (as you claimed) then you consider Bin Laden and Hitler as one with yourself and your kids. We humans happen to share all 99.9% of our genes, if this is what you are meaning. You, me, Hitler and Osama included, I fear. Originally Posted by joolz If that truly is your view (and you seem reluctant to answer that point) then I was merely congratulating you on being one of the few people in the world with that mentality. I think most biologists would agree with me on the above. Originally Posted by joolz If you had read the sentence you snipped, you will see that I agree with Ziggurat but stated that there are extremes of that mentality that are not desirable. The them/us mentality is not always justified, but your inference that it 'is a bad thing' unconditionally is worse as it would lead to people not caring for their own kids etc. I would disagree that 47 millions Americans on food stamps represent such an "extreme" Originally Posted by joolz Is English your first language? You don't seem clear on the meaning of 'extreme'. Yes, millions of people suffering is extreme, and yet you added a question mark to that statement? Are you unsure? Are you saying you think it is normal? Unfortunately, it is. There are millions, well, hundreds of millions of people in this world suffering. War are not the exception, but the norm. Then it all depends how you want to use the word "extreme" Originally Posted by joolz People tend to avoid answering a direct question when they know they are wrong. Yet again you are just listing random examples of extreme us/them behaviour instead of answering. And here we go again. What do you mean by "extreme"? Unusual? Unnatural? Well.. wars are not at all unusual neither innatural. Originally Posted by joolz I'll ask it again in simple words... do you think your ancestors nurtured their children in preference to other people's children? Your answer should be 'yes' as you have stated that you intend to do this too. Please confirm. Basically yes, but what has this to do with the "us vs them" mentality? Originally Posted by joolz This 'defence' of the OP is actually either laughable or very sad. You emphasise 'my' and 'your' and don't seem to connect with the fact that you are referring directly to 'us' [your family] and 'them' [my family]. You are treating 'my' and 'your' differently, therefore you are applying 'us' and 'them' mentality, ergo, you define yourself as 'a stupid "us vs them" believer' - your words, not mine. Why you are talking about "family" here? Originally Posted by joolz It proves, yet again, that you do have the us/them mentality that you claim not to have. You are always stretching the argument to the.. err.. extreme to prove something that I did not say. Why talk about families when I was mainly (only) talking about big groups and countries? Originally Posted by joolz It's blatantly obvious that you, like almost every other person on the planet, has evolved to see your own kids as 'us' and other people's kids as 'them'. You have evolved to care for your kids, but let mine die. I understand your position, it is quite normal, I take no offence as it's the way we evolved. You prove my point yet again. I see that for you "kids" are very important and I appreciate this, but please try to read more of what I write Originally Posted by joolz The only way you could believe in your own OP would be not to prioritise your own kids. Kids.. again
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537

15th November 2012, 07:22 AM	#85
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537	Originally Posted by joolz Everything seems either black or white for you, as Zigg pointed out. You don't see that the circumstances are crucial to making your decision. I am happy that you see very well the "circumstances" that lead 47 millions Americans on food stamps, but I am mostly happy not having to rely on them Originally Posted by joolz I would not fly my plane into a boat full of supporters of a rival football team. Great. This is already something. It happens somehow that there are quite some people that would do just that. They are the ones (among others) I was talking about Originally Posted by joolz I would fly my plane into a boat if the boat was chasing my kids and the people in it were pirates shooting at my kids. I'd kill 'them' [the crooks] to save 'us' [my family]. Good. Agreed on that. Now, the 5000 US soldiers that died in Iraq were not fighting anyone who was threatening their families. Nor the 250000 Nazi soldiers who died in Stalingrad. For some people the above soldiers were heroes who died for their Country. For others, they were just a bunch of idiots who were embued in the "us vs them" mentality. We have different opinions here. ADDED If I may, I believe that the 5000 US soldiers that died in Iraq or the people who fly planes into buildings are not among the smartest people in the universe. I hope I will not offend anyone` s patriotic sensibility with this. Originally Posted by joolz Wouldn't you protect your kids like that? If you talk only about kids, kids, kids, kids all the time I will not answer you anymore Please.. There are not only your kids in this world.
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537	Last edited by John Mekki; 15th November 2012 at 07:27 AM.

15th November 2012, 07:24 AM	#86
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No you weren't. You were spouting random facts with no argument presented at all to indicate their relevance. [..] Ah.. OK
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537

15th November 2012, 09:40 AM	#87
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sheffield Posts: 8,318	Originally Posted by John Mekki His kids would die in war, my kids would be safe in my house. Fine for me Because for you, all you care about is "us and them". The irony in this thread is setting a new record for JREF.
	__________________ Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke

13th November 2012, 01:56 PM	#82
joolz Medusa Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Scotland, Yurp Posts: 1,644	Originally Posted by John Mekki I do not think that a pilot driving his plane against a boat is veyr much intelligent. Everything seems either black or white for you, as Zigg pointed out. You don't see that the circumstances are crucial to making your decision. I would not fly my plane into a boat full of supporters of a rival football team. I would fly my plane into a boat if the boat was chasing my kids and the people in it were pirates shooting at my kids. I'd kill 'them' [the crooks] to save 'us' [my family]. Wouldn't you protect your kids like that? If you would sink the boat to save them, as I would, then you are saying you are not very intelligent. Or maybe you would you let them be killed just to prove your OP?
	__________________ The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking

15th November 2012, 10:21 AM	#88
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,256	Originally Posted by DragonLady Ughm...not to be argumentative, but reading your OP makes me think otherwise. You outlined quite the long list of thems, and their behaviors. Don't feel badly. It's human nature. It's the way our brains are wired, and it's not going to change for many, many, many generations. The us/them divide passes thru the center of the human brain.

15th November 2012, 10:46 AM	#89
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,256	Originally Posted by John Mekki It has been here since the beginning of humandkind, I assume. And it is, in my opinion, the most stupid kind of mentality that you can have. It is the “Us” vs. “Them” mentality. It is a way of thinking shared by millions (billions?) of people all over the world, maybe the majority of humankind. In simple words, people believe that their side is the “good” one and the other side is the “bad” one. By principle. No matter what. Such people use different criteria to judge actions, based on either it is “our” side that does it, or the “other”. The most striking (stupid?) aspect of such mentality is that people thinking this way are even willing to accept personal losses for the good of “our” side. I can understand (while do not agree with) people raping, killing and stealing for their own profit. What I really can not understand people supporting rape, murder and steal when they have nothing to gain from it, or even when they are willing to get a personal loss from their support to the “just cause”. You do not believe that this happens? Think twice. Examples are countless. Just few decades ago, Japanese kamikaze pilots offered their lives to blew themselves up against US ships during WWII. Nazi pilots did similar things. Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were the countries invading other countries during WWII, so hardly you can think to be on the right side when you invade other countries, or so I thought. And we have no short list of people blowing themselves up in the Middle East for “their side” religious or political agenda You believe that such examples are kind of extreme and not worth to be considered as the rule? Maybe most people would not go as far as committing suicide for the good of their “side”, but they would accept other minor kind of losses. Some (most?) Iranian people are against having a country called Israel not far from their borders. Why? The average Iranian would have nothing to lose if their Government recognizes Israel, in fact, they may have much to gain, hopefully some sanctions may be lifted. Still, many Iranians would not accept that, despite I can see no rational reason why Iranian should oppose in principle to recognition of Israel. You do not believe that? I kindly invite you to go and talk in any English-speaking Iranian forum you can find in the internet. Beware not to insist too much on the question that the Holocaust has happened, I have been banned for this. You believe only Iranians are extremists? Think twice. I also talked with Japanese about the question of WWII and about the crimes of Japanese soldiers in China and Korea (personally) You would be surprised to know hown many Japanese do not believe that Japan committed any crime during WWII and condone the invasion of China, Korea, and so on.. Of course, howewer, they strongly condemn the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings (I could not find any link in English for this, sorry, as US news sites seem to be only interested in US citizens opinion: http://www.atomicheritage.org/mediaw...a_and_Nagasaki) as from my understanding, Americans, on the other side, still support the bombings “An August 2009 poll by Quinnipiac University found that 61 percent of Americans supported the bombing, with 22 percent opposed and 16 percent undecided. The poll found a significant gap in opinion based on respondents' ages: 73 percent of those polled over 55 agreed with the bombing, while only 50 percent of those under 34 supported it.” http://www.atomicheritage.org/mediaw...a_and_Nagasaki Maybe Japanese people are little bit “strange”? Please, go to talk with a Chinese and ask him about Mao Zedong, and the “Great Lead Forward” which left some millions of Chinese dead. Ask him or her why they still have Mao` s face on their notes. I did and I just got angry replies such as “You are anti-Chinese”, “Go back to your country”, etc. To be noted that most (all?) of Mao` s policies victims were Chinese people, so you are called "anti-Chinese" for just asking a question about why crimes against other Chinese people happened. What about Americans and Western people? They are happy to pay thousands of dollars per year to their military just to keep their dream of being the strongest country on Earth. In all their movies of war, the "hero" is always American, never a Lithuanian. The fact that pouring hundreds of billions in the military every year may be one of the reasons why their economy is not exactly doing well and maybe this is why maybe they are losing or at risk to lose their job does not seem to move the majority of US citizens to a more prudent spending. And what exactly is the advantage for the average US citizen to have a US base in South America or Japan? Dunno. Maybe they really believe that invading Iraq or threatening Iran with war were good and moral things, and the 200000 + deaths that the invasion caused may be an acceptable "collateral damage" for having brought "freedom" to Iraq from their once-supported dictatorship of Saddam, but not only that: many of US citizens are even happy to pay thousands of dollars of their own taxes for such "moral actions", and this is a puzzle for me, as what the average US citizen has to gain from the "liberation" of Iraq and the subsequent sectarian war that brought hundreds of thousands of deaths? I guess nothing. And I finish talking about Russians. I talked to a few of them here in Japan (yes, there are quite a few Russians in Japan) and told them that Putin should not have gone as far as bombing Grozny to bring Chechenya to peace. I can spare you the comments I received. Most of the Russians I have talked to (not many, so maybe I was unlucky) were even little bit nostalgic of the good old times when the USSR was a global superpower. Reminding them that during those times there were mass famines who killed thousands (Russian citizens exactly like them!) did not seem to shake their opinion I still have to talk with people from New Zealand, but I did have a chat with one friend of Rwanda few years ago, who blamed all African troubles on colonialism. The fact that most Africans seem to be perfectly able to kill each other with little Western support did not change much his idea that African do not have much responsibility for African problems. It is the West who is to blame! Useless to tell him that colonialism in Africa ended decades ago. I am leaving out Brazilians, Indians, French and Dutch, .. as I do not have much experience with them. I thought that, in the era of Internet, things may have changed, but it looks like it will still take a while for any real change in people thought to happen. What is your take on this? I'm with Us. Those Thems are not to be trusted, have no morals and don't wash. Just as soon as We and Us can get together, the Thems will be eradicated.
	Last edited by tsig; 15th November 2012 at 10:47 AM.

15th November 2012, 01:09 PM	#90
joolz Medusa Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Scotland, Yurp Posts: 1,644	Originally Posted by John Mekki His kids would die in war, my kids would be safe in my house. Fine for me And you really, truly don't recognise that as your own 'us' and 'them' behaviour? 'They' can go and die, 'we' will be safe? 'They/we' 'Us/them'. Same thing. Originally Posted by John Mekki As it is a strawman No. it was an attempt to get you to confront your own blatant us/them attitude which you ducked again. Originally Posted by John Mekki To be honest, yes, I see many of the posters in this forum have ways of thinking not far from those of AlQaeda, yes. So 'they' think like Al Qaeda, but 'you' don't. 'Them' being different from you again. 'Them' who think like Al Qaeda vs 'us' who don't. Originally Posted by John Mekki We humans happen to share all 99.9% of our genes, if this is what you are meaning. You, me, Hitler and Osama included, I fear. Yes, we are all human beings, but that doesn't preclude us from looking at subsets of humanity as 'them'. You do it when you look after your kids, ie 'us', and treat other folks' kids differently, ie as 'them'. Originally Posted by John Mekki I think most biologists would agree with me on the above. No, they wouldn't. Biologists are aware of the human instinct to nurture your own (ie us/them behaviour). It's not just a human behaviour. Originally Posted by John Mekki I would disagree that 47 millions Americans on food stamps represent such an "extreme". So why did you include it in the list that you said was extremes of us/them behaviour? We don't seem to be making progress in your fluctuating definition of extreme, so let's stick to the 'us/them' so we can help you out of your cognitive dissonance and enable you to see that you have the benefit of it the same as the rest of us. Originally Posted by John Mekki Quote: I'll ask it again in simple words... do you think your ancestors nurtured their children in preference to other people's children? Your answer should be 'yes' as you have stated that you intend to do this too. Please confirm. Basically yes, but what has this to do with the "us vs them" mentality? Because that IS "us vs them" mentality. We nurture our offspring in preference to offspring of others. "Us vs them" mentality. You prove my point again, you have it, and it's good that you do. Originally Posted by John Mekki Why you are talking about "family" here? Because that, as has been said many times above, is the perfect example of why "us vs them" mentality has been successful in evolution, as Ziggurat stated pages ago. No one is arguing that Nazi us/them mentality is 'good' per se, nor Kamikaze us/them mentality, whether you understand their behaviour or not. Not one person posting here against your OP has said that us/them mentality is unconditionally good. I'd guess that the vast majority are very pleased that the Nazis failed, but, equally, you cannot claim that it is unconditionally bad, so bad that you want to eradicate it from you own way of thinking. Originally Posted by John Mekki You are always stretching the argument to the.. err.. extreme to prove something that I did not say. Incorrect. You have given many examples of your us/them thinking, but when posters present with your own evidence you deny it. Originally Posted by John Mekki Why talk about families when I was mainly (only) talking about big groups and countries? That is probably the root cause of the problem with your OP. You were being selectively narrow in your view of us/them in an attempt to prove an invalid claim. You failed to consider all aspects of us/them mentality. It is not limited to 'big groups and countries', it operates on many, many levels, right down to the 'me/them' level of thinking. As I've said already, if you support a football team then you have us/them mentality in respect of football. If you have kids then you have us/them mentality in respect of your kids. All beings who have been nurtured by parents have benefited from the us/them mentality of past generations. Originally Posted by John Mekki I see that for you "kids" are very important and I appreciate this, but please try to read more of what I write Perhaps you should read more of what I write as I've already asked you not to make assumptions about me. Kids are not important to me, if they were I'd have had some. 'Kids' are merely a tool to prove that us/them mentality is good in the nurturing of kids. You have said so many times that you treat your kids above other kids, that is a prime example of your us/them attitude towards kids, and I'm genuinely pleased that you have that attitude as it means your kids have a great start in life . Originally Posted by John Mekki Kids.. again Yes, because your own kids are proving your OP is wrong. For the sake of your kids I really hope you don't eliminate your us/them mentality and continue to nurture them above all other kids. You clearly care about your kids, which is why I have used offspring as a way to show you your own 'us/them' mindset. You have even agreed that, if the circumstances were right, you would kill others to protect your children, as most parents probably would. In post #82 I gave an example of us/them mentality where I would choose to fly my plane into a boat. You seemed to agree that you would do the same as you typed: "Good. Agreed on that." So, from your own computer comes the evidence that us/them mentality has a place in the world for good, even though we probably all agree that it can be destructive when taken to err.... extremes.
	__________________ The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking

15th November 2012, 01:14 PM	#91
joolz Medusa Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Scotland, Yurp Posts: 1,644	Originally Posted by Wudang Because for you, all you care about is "us and them". The irony in this thread is setting a new record for JREF. Maybe we need an irony award, as well as the TLA and pith ones.
	__________________ The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking

16th November 2012, 12:49 PM	#92
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537	Originally Posted by joolz And you really, truly don't recognise that as your own 'us' and 'them' behaviour? 'They' can go and die, 'we' will be safe? 'They/we' 'Us/them'. Same thing. No. Because I did not want them to go to die. If they are stupid, that is their problem Originally Posted by joolz No. it was an attempt to get you to confront your own blatant us/them attitude which you ducked again. Maybe as you did not understand what us vs them is about Originally Posted by joolz So 'they' think like Al Qaeda, but 'you' don't. 'Them' being different from you again. 'Them' who think like Al Qaeda vs 'us' who don't. And where is my responsibility if they think like AlQaeda? Originally Posted by joolz Yes, we are all human beings, but that doesn't preclude us from looking at subsets of humanity as 'them'. You do it when you look after your kids, ie 'us', and treat other folks' kids differently, ie as 'them'. I do not want any kid to go to die. But if not-so-smart American parents send them to die in Iraq, what am I supposed to do? Originally Posted by joolz No, they wouldn't. Biologists are aware of the human instinct to nurture your own (ie us/them behaviour). It's not just a human behaviour. Wrong. In nature the animal/person who collaborates survives. Many US soldiers who went to war in Iraq perished. This is a fact Originally Posted by joolz So why did you include it in the list that you said was extremes of us/them behaviour? I did not say extremes, I said examples Originally Posted by joolz Because that IS "us vs them" mentality. We nurture our offspring in preference to offspring of others. "Us vs them" mentality. You prove my point again, you have it, and it's good that you do. This is what you seem unable to grasp. I ask you again, if "We nurture our offspring in preference to offspring of others.", then why US parents sent their kids to die in Iraq? Originally Posted by joolz Because that, as has been said many times above, is the perfect example of why "us vs them" mentality has been successful in evolution, as Ziggurat stated pages ago. In a certain sense I agree, it was successful but not for the US kids who died in Iraq. It was successful if we consider that maybe they were not so smart as they went to die in Iraq, so in general the gene pool of humankind may have improved from the removal from our gene pool of the genes of 5000 not-so-smart guys. This I can agreed on. Same can be said about the removal of hundreds of kamikaze soldiers and so on.. But for the parents of the soldiers who died in Iraq, the "us vs them" mentality was not successful as they saw their kids die. And we will agree that having your son to die may not be considered as a success (I would not)
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537

16th November 2012, 12:52 PM	#93
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537	Originally Posted by joolz In post #82 I gave an example of us/them mentality where I would choose to fly my plane into a boat. You seemed to agree that you would do the same as you typed: "Good. Agreed on that." So, from your own computer comes the evidence that us/them mentality has a place in the world for good, even though we probably all agree that it can be destructive when taken to err.... extremes. Well.. I may agree up to a point. That is, unfortunately people using the "us vs them" mentality kill also other people who do not use "us vs them" mentality in the process. See the people who drove planes into the Twin Towers, they killed people there who may have been good people
John Mekki Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 537

16th November 2012, 02:08 PM	#94
Hallo Alfie Suspended Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,113	This a parody thread, right?

16th November 2012, 03:13 PM	#95
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,307	Hokay: Us:Bunch of random people..... Them!: Giant Ants!!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,307	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!