"American Sniper" Chris Kyle murdered - Page 10

Monketey Ghost · 6th February 2013, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The police and security have guns to facilitate arrests and for self defence. The UK police are unarmed, it is a reason why the citizens are not allowed to have a gun for self defence, in case they claim such against the police.

The presence of police and security is what deters crime.

Okay. Well, here in the U.S....

Nessie · 6th February 2013, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Criminals get their guns retail.

10-15% are stolen.

The rest they either buy themselves if they are able, buy from a private seller or at a gun show, buy from a straw purchaser, or buy from a corrupt dealer who will later report a theft.

If the retail gun market were only single-shot weapons and double-barreled shotguns, those would very quickly be all most criminals would be able to obtain.

That situation is a long way away and maybe not possible because of guns coming from Mexico.

I understand your argument, I just do not think it is practical and the priority is elsewhere.

Nessie · 6th February 2013, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Xulld

Why would it have been rescinded, do you know that he had been convicted of a crime or adjudicated mentally unstable? Do you actually know something specific about this mans past or are you just making stuff up that sounds nice?

His permit would have been rescinded after he threatened his family.

I am not making this up, it is how it works in the UK. All gun owners have a certificate. Commit a crime or make threats or be found to have a mental illness like PTSD and the certificate is rescinded and the guns seized. The gun owner can chose to surrender or appeal to the Sheriff Court to get it back.

A permit system with background checks, a five year renewal, no possession without a permit allowed (sentences are harsh with the recommended minimum 5 year) and a system to revoke and appeal such is easy to administer and helps to reduce the number of inappropriate people with a gun.

Nessie · 6th February 2013, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

Okay. Well, here in the U.S....

....you have got it horribly wrong and should listen to countries where criminals, nuts and youths find it very, very difficult to get hold of guns, when they do they are punished severely and as a result have far lower gun crime rates than you do.

Monketey Ghost · 6th February 2013, 05:20 AM

P.J. Denyer · 6th February 2013, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The police and security have guns to facilitate arrests and for self defence. The UK police are unarmed, it is a reason why the citizens are not allowed to have a gun for self defence, in case they claim such against the police.

The presence of police and security is what deters crime.

I'd say it's the other way around, the Police are, for the most part, unarmed because the vast majority of people they deal with, law abiding or criminal are also unarmed. Of course armed Police will be there pretty damn quick if there is any suggestion of a gun involved, there is a lot to be said for the policy.

Dr. Keith · 6th February 2013, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

I'd say it's the other way around, the Police are, for the most part, unarmed because the vast majority of people they deal with, law abiding or criminal are also unarmed. Of course armed Police will be there pretty damn quick if there is any suggestion of a gun involved, there is a lot to be said for the policy.

And Nessie has been doing a good job of saying it as calmly as possible in the face of people claiming that civilized society is impossible without the 2nd Amendment.

DC · 6th February 2013, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

P.J. Denyer · 6th February 2013, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

And Nessie has been doing a good job of saying it as calmly as possible in the face of people claiming that civilized society is impossible without the 2nd Amendment.

I completely agree, if I appeared to be arguing against him that was not the intention. I am extremely happy to live in a country where the chances of facing a Bad Guy With A Gun are so low that even the vast majority of those who work in law enforcement are able to perform their duties without the need to carry firearms.

Nessie · 6th February 2013, 07:52 AM

We are just so damned civilised, what, what!

Monketey Ghost · 6th February 2013, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by DC

Nessie teased me and I teased back. It was light hearted on both sides; what have you got a problem with?

joesixpack · 6th February 2013, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The police and security have guns to facilitate arrests and for self defence. The UK police are unarmed, it is a reason why the citizens are not allowed to have a gun for self defence, in case they claim such against the police.

The presence of police and security is what deters crime.

Police in the UK most certainly do have guns, they just don't carry them on their patrols.

Nessie · 6th February 2013, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by joesixpack

Police in the UK most certainly do have guns, they just don't carry them on their patrols.

A small minority of UK police are authorised firearms officers and they do carry guns on patrol. Some police officers (and civilian employees) are authorised to check and deal with the licensing of firearms, so will sometimes have possession of firearms, but would never use them in any capacity. The rest have no access to or desire to have a gun.

triforcharity · 6th February 2013, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

And Nessie has been doing a good job of saying it as calmly as possible in the face of people claiming that civilized society is impossible without the 2nd Amendment.

Who the **** said that?

thaiboxerken · 6th February 2013, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

A small minority of UK police are authorised firearms officers and they do carry guns on patrol. Some police officers (and civilian employees) are authorised to check and deal with the licensing of firearms, so will sometimes have possession of firearms, but would never use them in any capacity. The rest have no access to or desire to have a gun.

what makes you an expert on what happens in the UK?

Multivac · 13th February 2013, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

what makes you an expert on what happens in the UK?

From Nessie's posts it is fairly clear that he is, or has been, a police officer living and working in the UK for most of his life. This probably gives him a reasonable picture of life in the UK. Although I don't always agree with his posts, I do mainly agree with his depiction of the availability of guns in the UK.

The Don · 13th February 2013, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

what makes you an expert on what happens in the UK?

It also happens that in this case Nessie's post aligns with police opinion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_...United_Kingdom

Quote:

Surveys by the Police Federation of England and Wales have continued to show police officers' considerable resistance to routine arming. In the Federation's most recent (2006) Officer/Arming survey, 82% of respondents were against the routine arming of police, although 43% supported an increase in the number of officers trained and authorised to use firearms

qayak · 13th February 2013, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Who the **** said that?

You've been one of the more vocal ones making the claim.

thaiboxerken · 13th February 2013, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Multivac

From Nessie's posts it is fairly clear that he is, or has been, a police officer living and working in the UK for most of his life. This probably gives him a reasonable picture of life in the UK. Although I don't always agree with his posts, I do mainly agree with his depiction of the availability of guns in the UK.

Originally Posted by The Don

It also happens that in this case Nessie's post aligns with police opinion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_...United_Kingdom

It was a sarcastic post. I agree that Nessie knows quite a bit.

triforcharity · 13th February 2013, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

You've been one of the more vocal ones making the claim.

{Citation required}

Good luck sir. You want find it.

triforcharity · 13th February 2013, 08:22 PM

On a more somber note, here is a photo of the casket for CPO Chris Kyle.

What you see scattered all over the lid, are the trident pins that come from a SEAL's uniform. The people attending the funeral will take them from their uniform, and set them on the coffin lid, and then pound them into the wood.

I've been to a SEAL's funeral, and it's quite somber and moving, though I am not sure why it is done.

Here's a brief view from another SEAL's funeral.

http://youtu.be/CfK2BQCIIes?t=8m28s

(This is from Michael Monsoor's funeral)

jimbob · 16th February 2013, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

That situation is a long way away and maybe not possible because of guns coming from Mexico.

I understand your argument, I just do not think it is practical and the priority is elsewhere.

Currently a lot of the gun traffic is the other direction. From the US to Mexico.

joesixpack · 16th February 2013, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Currently a lot of the gun traffic is the other direction. From the US to Mexico.

That would certainly turn around if guns were outlawed in the US. There is an illegal trade in a lot of things across borders. Weed is illegal in both countries currently yet it seems to flow across the border pretty easily.

Multivac · 18th February 2013, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

It was a sarcastic post. I agree that Nessie knows quite a bit.

Sorry, my sarcasm detector must have been on the blink.

6th February 2013, 04:57 AM	#361
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by Nessie The police and security have guns to facilitate arrests and for self defence. The UK police are unarmed, it is a reason why the citizens are not allowed to have a gun for self defence, in case they claim such against the police. The presence of police and security is what deters crime. Okay. Well, here in the U.S....
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

6th February 2013, 04:57 AM	#362
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,809	Originally Posted by BenBurch Criminals get their guns retail. 10-15% are stolen. The rest they either buy themselves if they are able, buy from a private seller or at a gun show, buy from a straw purchaser, or buy from a corrupt dealer who will later report a theft. If the retail gun market were only single-shot weapons and double-barreled shotguns, those would very quickly be all most criminals would be able to obtain. That situation is a long way away and maybe not possible because of guns coming from Mexico. I understand your argument, I just do not think it is practical and the priority is elsewhere.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

6th February 2013, 05:03 AM	#363
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,809	Originally Posted by Xulld Why would it have been rescinded, do you know that he had been convicted of a crime or adjudicated mentally unstable? Do you actually know something specific about this mans past or are you just making stuff up that sounds nice? His permit would have been rescinded after he threatened his family. I am not making this up, it is how it works in the UK. All gun owners have a certificate. Commit a crime or make threats or be found to have a mental illness like PTSD and the certificate is rescinded and the guns seized. The gun owner can chose to surrender or appeal to the Sheriff Court to get it back. A permit system with background checks, a five year renewal, no possession without a permit allowed (sentences are harsh with the recommended minimum 5 year) and a system to revoke and appeal such is easy to administer and helps to reduce the number of inappropriate people with a gun.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

6th February 2013, 05:06 AM	#364
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,809	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost Okay. Well, here in the U.S.... ....you have got it horribly wrong and should listen to countries where criminals, nuts and youths find it very, very difficult to get hold of guns, when they do they are punished severely and as a result have far lower gun crime rates than you do.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

6th February 2013, 05:20 AM	#365
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

6th February 2013, 07:23 AM	#366
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,131	Originally Posted by Nessie The police and security have guns to facilitate arrests and for self defence. The UK police are unarmed, it is a reason why the citizens are not allowed to have a gun for self defence, in case they claim such against the police. The presence of police and security is what deters crime. I'd say it's the other way around, the Police are, for the most part, unarmed because the vast majority of people they deal with, law abiding or criminal are also unarmed. Of course armed Police will be there pretty damn quick if there is any suggestion of a gun involved, there is a lot to be said for the policy.

6th February 2013, 07:31 AM	#367
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,242	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer I'd say it's the other way around, the Police are, for the most part, unarmed because the vast majority of people they deal with, law abiding or criminal are also unarmed. Of course armed Police will be there pretty damn quick if there is any suggestion of a gun involved, there is a lot to be said for the policy. And Nessie has been doing a good job of saying it as calmly as possible in the face of people claiming that civilized society is impossible without the 2nd Amendment.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle

6th February 2013, 07:34 AM	#368
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

6th February 2013, 07:45 AM	#369
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,131	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith And Nessie has been doing a good job of saying it as calmly as possible in the face of people claiming that civilized society is impossible without the 2nd Amendment. I completely agree, if I appeared to be arguing against him that was not the intention. I am extremely happy to live in a country where the chances of facing a Bad Guy With A Gun are so low that even the vast majority of those who work in law enforcement are able to perform their duties without the need to carry firearms.

6th February 2013, 07:52 AM	#370
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,809	We are just so damned civilised, what, what!
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

6th February 2013, 09:38 AM	#371
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by DC Nessie teased me and I teased back. It was light hearted on both sides; what have you got a problem with?
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

6th February 2013, 10:53 AM	#372
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,406	Originally Posted by Nessie The police and security have guns to facilitate arrests and for self defence. The UK police are unarmed, it is a reason why the citizens are not allowed to have a gun for self defence, in case they claim such against the police. The presence of police and security is what deters crime. Police in the UK most certainly do have guns, they just don't carry them on their patrols.
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

6th February 2013, 01:08 PM	#373
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,809	Originally Posted by joesixpack Police in the UK most certainly do have guns, they just don't carry them on their patrols. A small minority of UK police are authorised firearms officers and they do carry guns on patrol. Some police officers (and civilian employees) are authorised to check and deal with the licensing of firearms, so will sometimes have possession of firearms, but would never use them in any capacity. The rest have no access to or desire to have a gun.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

6th February 2013, 06:15 PM	#374
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,192	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith And Nessie has been doing a good job of saying it as calmly as possible in the face of people claiming that civilized society is impossible without the 2nd Amendment. Who the **** said that?
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

6th February 2013, 06:52 PM	#375
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	Originally Posted by Nessie A small minority of UK police are authorised firearms officers and they do carry guns on patrol. Some police officers (and civilian employees) are authorised to check and deal with the licensing of firearms, so will sometimes have possession of firearms, but would never use them in any capacity. The rest have no access to or desire to have a gun. what makes you an expert on what happens in the UK?
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

13th February 2013, 05:39 AM	#376
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,933	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken what makes you an expert on what happens in the UK? From Nessie's posts it is fairly clear that he is, or has been, a police officer living and working in the UK for most of his life. This probably gives him a reasonable picture of life in the UK. Although I don't always agree with his posts, I do mainly agree with his depiction of the availability of guns in the UK.

13th February 2013, 05:54 AM	#377
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,239	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken what makes you an expert on what happens in the UK? It also happens that in this case Nessie's post aligns with police opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_...United_Kingdom Quote: Surveys by the Police Federation of England and Wales have continued to show police officers' considerable resistance to routine arming. In the Federation's most recent (2006) Officer/Arming survey, 82% of respondents were against the routine arming of police, although 43% supported an increase in the number of officers trained and authorised to use firearms

13th February 2013, 07:06 AM	#378
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	Originally Posted by triforcharity Who the **** said that? You've been one of the more vocal ones making the claim.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

13th February 2013, 10:56 AM	#379
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	Originally Posted by Multivac From Nessie's posts it is fairly clear that he is, or has been, a police officer living and working in the UK for most of his life. This probably gives him a reasonable picture of life in the UK. Although I don't always agree with his posts, I do mainly agree with his depiction of the availability of guns in the UK. Originally Posted by The Don It also happens that in this case Nessie's post aligns with police opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_...United_Kingdom It was a sarcastic post. I agree that Nessie knows quite a bit.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

13th February 2013, 08:04 PM	#380
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,192	Originally Posted by qayak You've been one of the more vocal ones making the claim. {Citation required} Good luck sir. You want find it.
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

13th February 2013, 08:22 PM	#381
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,192	On a more somber note, here is a photo of the casket for CPO Chris Kyle. What you see scattered all over the lid, are the trident pins that come from a SEAL's uniform. The people attending the funeral will take them from their uniform, and set them on the coffin lid, and then pound them into the wood. I've been to a SEAL's funeral, and it's quite somber and moving, though I am not sure why it is done. Here's a brief view from another SEAL's funeral. http://youtu.be/CfK2BQCIIes?t=8m28s (This is from Michael Monsoor's funeral)
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

16th February 2013, 04:46 AM	#382
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 5,165	Originally Posted by Nessie That situation is a long way away and maybe not possible because of guns coming from Mexico. I understand your argument, I just do not think it is practical and the priority is elsewhere. Currently a lot of the gun traffic is the other direction. From the US to Mexico.
	__________________ OECD healthcare statistics http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html 2010 Data UK 9.6% of GDP of which 83.2% is state expenditure = 8.0% of GDP from taxes US 17.6% of GDP of which 48.2% is state expenditure = 8.5% of GDP from taxes

16th February 2013, 05:15 AM	#383
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,406	Originally Posted by jimbob Currently a lot of the gun traffic is the other direction. From the US to Mexico. That would certainly turn around if guns were outlawed in the US. There is an illegal trade in a lot of things across borders. Weed is illegal in both countries currently yet it seems to flow across the border pretty easily.
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

18th February 2013, 07:10 AM	#384
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,933	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken It was a sarcastic post. I agree that Nessie knows quite a bit. Sorry, my sarcasm detector must have been on the blink.