Could Rudy Guede alone have killed Meredith Kercher?

[anglolawyer]

Originally Posted by christianahannah

A full English translation I am not aware of (there are bits and pieces of the motivation which have been translated to English), however, there was a Google translated version which, while not perfect, allowed one to read/understand somewhat the reasonings for the verdict.

I can't be doing with google translations. They are apt to mislead and cause headaches.

Quote:

No, I know the prosecution did not appeal the second instance sentence reduction. My looking was not for that but rather could the sentence reduction given by the court of appeal be appealed by the prosecution to the SC? There was no reason for the prosecution to appeal the sentence from the trial of first instance because Rudy got the maximum sentence for the fast track trial.

I know not.

[RandyN]

Just a thought....I have been fingerprinted a number of times... none related to an arrest BTW:-) but at one time I was required to hold a top secret clearance and so they look at you fairly closely and even this time I was NOT required to provide a palm print. And never in the at least 2 dozen others times I have been required to provide fingerprints did I ever provide a palm print...

It is a lying lie made to make the police look better...nothing more. Rudys friend called the police...he told them he suspected his friend Rudy killed MK . Only after this did police set up a tap to record Rudys Skype call. Rudy was in contact with this friend several times before the skype call...both email and skype.

I understand all the talk about points of identification matches etc and its nonsense in this case and in RG case because this print has never been seen by anyone. RG defense never raised this issue because that is part of what a fast track is all about...limited evidence etc...it is basically a confession ...like I suppose pleading no contest to the charges...

That time is reduced automatically but can be reduced or increased further depending on circumstances.... that I have no idea as to how the Italians think about or motivate.

Mignini for example asked that Knox have more time plus solitary confinement during her appeal trial...based on the motive of NO MOTIVE...cant make this stuff up.

[Dan O.]

Originally Posted by RandyN

Just a thought....I have been fingerprinted a number of times... none related to an arrest BTW:-) but at one time I was required to hold a top secret clearance and so they look at you fairly closely and even this time I was NOT required to provide a palm print. And never in the at least 2 dozen others times I have been required to provide fingerprints did I ever provide a palm print...

I thought it had been established that the Italians did have a palm print database at that time. But, the quality of any prints recovered from a cloth surface would have been unsuitable for automatic matching to the database. Only recently has computer modeling allowed recovery of print detail from such surfaces and even then it's debatable if they could get enough detail for an automated search.

Yes, the use of the palm print must be a lie. And that lie began even before Rudy when they brought it out in conjunction with arresting Usi on November 10th.

[halides1]

I believe that there is a palm print but that somehow it has gotten reported to be on the pillowcase, when it is really on the wall. I will keep working on this.

[anglolawyer]

Originally Posted by halides1

I believe that there is a palm print but that somehow it has gotten reported to be on the pillowcase, when it is really on the wall. I will keep working on this.

Halides, if you mean the bloody smear above the nightstand in Meredith's room I believe the search will be fruitless and while Chinese whispers can account for much it seems unlkely a wall print would leak to the press as a pillow print. Moreover, we have Guede's own interrogation upthread in which he expresses bafflement at his print being found on the pillowcase, which suggests this piece of evidence was being claimed face to face with him by the cops.

[christianahannah]

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

I can't be doing with google translations. They are apt to mislead and cause headaches.

On this I agree wholeheartedly!

[christianahannah]

Originally Posted by RandyN

Just a thought....I have been fingerprinted a number of times... none related to an arrest BTW:-) but at one time I was required to hold a top secret clearance and so they look at you fairly closely and even this time I was NOT required to provide a palm print. And never in the at least 2 dozen others times I have been required to provide fingerprints did I ever provide a palm print...

It is a lying lie made to make the police look better...nothing more. Rudys friend called the police...he told them he suspected his friend Rudy killed MK . Only after this did police set up a tap to record Rudys Skype call. Rudy was in contact with this friend several times before the skype call...both email and skype.

I understand all the talk about points of identification matches etc and its nonsense in this case and in RG case because this print has never been seen by anyone. RG defense never raised this issue because that is part of what a fast track is all about...limited evidence etc...it is basically a confession ...like I suppose pleading no contest to the charges...

That time is reduced automatically but can be reduced or increased further depending on circumstances.... that I have no idea as to how the Italians think about or motivate.

Mignini for example asked that Knox have more time plus solitary confinement during her appeal trial...based on the motive of NO MOTIVE...cant make this stuff up.

Well, I don't know if all these thoughts of yours are factual or not. They are interesting but they may not be wholly based in law or what happened.

Do you know if Galati asked for more time to be added to Amanda's or Raffaele's sentence in his appeal to the SC? What is asked at the trial of second instance may be different than what can be asked on appeal to the SC. Rudy got the maximum sentence allowed in accordance with his fast track trial so I don't see how the prosecution could ask it to be increased during the second trial but it is certainly possible I am missing the article which explains the procedure.

If the print is there it has been seen by someone. It may not have concerned the defense of Amanda or Raffaele because Rudy was not a part of their trial.

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by christianahannah

Well, I don't know if all these thoughts of yours are factual or not. They are interesting but they may not be wholly based in law or what happened.

Do you know if Galati asked for more time to be added to Amanda's or Raffaele's sentence in his appeal to the SC? What is asked at the trial of second instance may be different than what can be asked on appeal to the SC. Rudy got the maximum sentence allowed in accordance with his fast track trial so I don't see how the prosecution could ask it to be increased during the second trial but it is certainly possible I am missing the article which explains the procedure.

If the print is there it has been seen by someone. It may not have concerned the defense of Amanda or Raffaele because Rudy was not a part of their trial.

Sorry I was referring to the prosecution request for life in solitary during the appeal (2 phase) trial.

I have no idea about appeals to the SC. Again for Guede I was speaking about his 2 nd phase which has rules for fast track but also time can be added or subtracted...and clearly in this case time should have been added back due to the brutal nature of his crimes starting with robbery and escalating to rape and murder.

The pillow case palm print is not just impossible but the fact is this is just a leaked story of the police. It is not a part of the AK, RS trial...it may have been mentioned in Guedes own trial but I can recall nothing about it.

We are currently in discussion over at IIA about Guedes "letter" that was read by Mignini during AK,RS appeal trial. At one time I had all that data but lost it in a hard drive failure...

Dr Yummi/Mach says there were no issues about the authorship but I seem to recall samples of this letter and other know samples of Guedes hand writing being available and that they did not match ...that plus there were questions asked in court about his ability to understand certain words used in this letter.

Anyone?

[christianahannah]

Originally Posted by RandyN

Sorry I was referring to the prosecution request for life in solitary during the appeal (2 phase) trial.

I have no idea about appeals to the SC. Again for Guede I was speaking about his 2 nd phase which has rules for fast track but also time can be added or subtracted...and clearly in this case time should have been added back due to the brutal nature of his crimes starting with robbery and escalating to rape and murder.

The pillow case palm print is not just impossible but the fact is this is just a leaked story of the police. It is not a part of the AK, RS trial...it may have been mentioned in Guedes own trial but I can recall nothing about it.

We are currently in discussion over at IIA about Guedes "letter" that was read by Mignini during AK,RS appeal trial. At one time I had all that data but lost it in a hard drive failure...

Dr Yummi/Mach says there were no issues about the authorship but I seem to recall samples of this letter and other know samples of Guedes hand writing being available and that they did not match ...that plus there were questions asked in court about his ability to understand certain words used in this letter.

Anyone?

I didn't think one could add to the fast track trial sentence (if the sentence given was the maximum) during the second appeal but I could be mistaken.

It was mentioned in the Micheli motivations but whether this was evidence (palm print) presented in Rudy's trial, given to his attorney, etc., I do not know.

There is a video of Rudy being questioned in court and his letter read during the second appeal. It is interesting and I did not come away with the feeling that the court questioned the letter's authenticity. I can not remember if a question was asked concerning Rudy actually penning the letter himself or if he dictated the contents to another and it was written by them.

As far as comparing handwriting samples, my own, has at times not looked like the majority of my writings depending on the formality of what I am writing, the time frame to write said letter, etc. Whether this is true of any samples of Rudy's as compared to the letter read in court, I can not say.

I think Rudy's attorney argued not to have the letter read in court but I may be confusing this with him being questioned specifically about Meredith's murder. It has been quite some time since I have viewed this testimony.

[Kaosium]

Originally Posted by christianahannah

I didn't think one could add to the fast track trial sentence (if the sentence given was the maximum) during the second appeal but I could be mistaken.

It was mentioned in the Micheli motivations but whether this was evidence (palm print) presented in Rudy's trial, given to his attorney, etc., I do not know.

There is a video of Rudy being questioned in court and his letter read during the second appeal. It is interesting and I did not come away with the feeling that the court questioned the letter's authenticity. I can not remember if a question was asked concerning Rudy actually penning the letter himself or if he dictated the contents to another and it was written by them.

As far as comparing handwriting samples, my own, has at times not looked like the majority of my writings depending on the formality of what I am writing, the time frame to write said letter, etc. Whether this is true of any samples of Rudy's as compared to the letter read in court, I can not say.

I think Rudy's attorney argued not to have the letter read in court but I may be confusing this with him being questioned specifically about Meredith's murder. It has been quite some time since I have viewed this testimony.

Here are scans of Rudy's Diary and the note he wrote to the court about Alessi. I cribbed them from this post in which I went digging them up, and also google-translated the one later read in court.

One factor that might account for the apparent handwriting differences is that when writing his diary Rudy would have had the wounds on his fingers, presumably from using the knife the night of the murder. Also I'm unsure just how much it might mean if he didn't write the second himself, having lawyers write responses to legal matters and then their clients signing them doesn't strike me as all that unlikely--or damning for that matter. However I got the impression that letter was more for the consumption of the press and Rudy and his lawyer(s) didn't necessarily want that in court, at least judging from their not exactly embracing it in court. I wondered if that might have been in order to avoid an additional calunnia charge, though as I recall the defense lawyers asked for one on Rudy at the end of the trial.

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by Kaosium

Here are scans of Rudy's Diary and the note he wrote to the court about Alessi. I cribbed them from this post in which I went digging them up, and also google-translated the one later read in court.

One factor that might account for the apparent handwriting differences is that when writing his diary Rudy would have had the wounds on his fingers, presumably from using the knife the night of the murder. Also I'm unsure just how much it might mean if he didn't write the second himself, having lawyers write responses to legal matters and then their clients signing them doesn't strike me as all that unlikely--or damning for that matter. However I got the impression that letter was more for the consumption of the press and Rudy and his lawyer(s) didn't necessarily want that in court, at least judging from their not exactly embracing it in court. I wondered if that might have been in order to avoid an additional calunnia charge, though as I recall the defense lawyers asked for one on Rudy at the end of the trial.

I would tend to agree with you that the writing is probably not Rudy's, in my non-expert opinion.

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague

I would tend to agree with you that the writing is probably not Rudy's, in my non-expert opinion.

Well sure I suppose he could have had someone else write for him but he testifies that he wrote this letter so we have to stretch to imagine the possibilities and I see no reason to grant him any slack since he is a proven and also described by those who raised him pathological liar.

So why torture the facts....I wonder if he claims who else may have been his scribe?

[christianahannah]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague

I would tend to agree with you that the writing is probably not Rudy's, in my non-expert opinion.

Originally Posted by RandyN

Well sure I suppose he could have had someone else write for him but he testifies that he wrote this letter so we have to stretch to imagine the possibilities and I see no reason to grant him any slack since he is a proven and also described by those who raised him pathological liar.

So why torture the facts....I wonder if he claims who else may have been his scribe?

In my non-expert opinion I will go with perhaps it is Rudy's handwriting. If it were transcribed by someone on his defense would they not have it typed it out and sent it to the media (rather than sending a handwritten letter)?

The diary writings were on unlined paper and written during a time of extreme emotions/events in Rudy's incarceration. So sloppiness would be expected. Whether this is due to the wounds on his fingers, I can't say, however, I thought the photos of the wounds on his hands when he was first taken in showed they had healed pretty well.

By the time the second letter was penned, Rudy having been in jail for almost four years, would not be in as much an emotional frenzy as he was four years ago, thus his handwriting could be neater. His handwriting now is also on lined paper.

I am no expert on handwriting but since Hellmann did not dispute the letter's authenticity I have no reason to do so either. And I do not think Rudy claimed anyone else penned the letter but as I have written before it has been some time since I have viewed the video of Rudy's testimony.

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by christianahannah

In my non-expert opinion I will go with perhaps it is Rudy's handwriting. If it were transcribed by someone on his defense would they not have it typed it out and sent it to the media (rather than sending a handwritten letter)?

The diary writings were on unlined paper and written during a time of extreme emotions/events in Rudy's incarceration. So sloppiness would be expected. Whether this is due to the wounds on his fingers, I can't say, however, I thought the photos of the wounds on his hands when he was first taken in showed they had healed pretty well.

By the time the second letter was penned, Rudy having been in jail for almost four years, would not be in as much an emotional frenzy as he was four years ago, thus his handwriting could be neater. His handwriting now is also on lined paper.

I am no expert on handwriting but since Hellmann did not dispute the letter's authenticity I have no reason to do so either. And I do not think Rudy claimed anyone else penned the letter but as I have written before it has been some time since I have viewed the video of Rudy's testimony.

I have to agree, your points all seem sound. That plus I understand quite clearly from my own very poor handwriting...without lines and in a hurry yields something I might have trouble with myself sometime later. But with lines and some concentrated effort at neatness I can whip out something most ....well some... might recognize as script.

Rudys hands were well healed at his arrest. I recall the scabs were gone but the lines had not faded yet...I doubt that would have caused any issue.

[RoseMontague]

There is an article from a local journalist in a Law Journal with a series of articles about the case. Teddy, one of our Italian speaking posters has these comments and translated quotes in a brief summary of the article.

Quote:

...his newspaper found Rudy's friend and arranged for him to meet Mignini to set up the Skype conversation, all after Rudy had been apparently discovered through the forensics results. He is therefore confirming the theory that the prosecution knew of Rudy before the friend came forward.

Quote:

"And it is interesting to note how the investigation’s entourage leaked information that later did not show up in the trial, probably because untrue, such as the fact that, when the police entered into the house of the crime, the washing machine was hot (making one think that Amanda and Raffaele had passed some of the night washing clothes and cleaning up traces of blood, and therefore, compromising)."

http://www.archiviopenale.it/joomla/...castellini.pdf

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.co...35.html#p59135

[christianahannah]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague

There is an article from a local journalist in a Law Journal with a series of articles about the case. Teddy, one of our Italian speaking posters has these comments and translated quotes in a brief summary of the article.





http://www.archiviopenale.it/joomla/...castellini.pdf

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.co...35.html#p59135

I believe this is the same journalist, who along with other journalists, wrote an early book about the Meredith Kercher case.

As journalists go, and there may be some who do not agree or like these particular journalists' practices, they searched out their story and investigated rather than use a paste and copy announcement from a media representative or prosecution or defense source.

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by christianahannah

I believe this is the same journalist, who along with other journalists, wrote an early book about the Meredith Kercher case.

As journalists go, and there may be some who do not agree or like these particular journalists' practices, they searched out their story and investigated rather than use a paste and copy announcement from a media representative or prosecution or defense source.

Don't know about these particular journalists but I have yet to see any real evidence that indicates ILE had any clue about Guede before his friend Giacomo turned him in. They did not figure this out from a palm print off that pillow case...no way.

[anglolawyer]

You know, I am part way through Raffaele's book and am actually beginning to wonder whether the answer to the OP might be: yes

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by RandyN

Don't know about these particular journalists but I have yet to see any real evidence that indicates ILE had any clue about Guede before his friend Giacomo turned him in. They did not figure this out from a palm print off that pillow case...no way.

Looks like maybe they did have him in their sights before Giacomo. Stefano Bonassi tipped them off about Guede and his habit of leaving crap in the loo. This led them to break into Rudy's apartment to obtain dna.

Information courtesy of Raffaele Sollecito...

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by bookworm

Looks like maybe they did have him in their sights before Giacomo. Stefano Bonassi tipped them off about Guede and his habit of leaving crap in the loo. This led them to break into Rudy's apartment to obtain dna.

Information courtesy of Raffaele Sollecito...

Havent read the book yet but I wonder if he provides dates? We should be able to see some lab data about the early DNA investigation...and then cross reference some prelim hearing dates and see if it all shakes out as above board...Im guessing no...:-)

[anglolawyer]

On the mystery palm print this is Cassazione reciting the facts in Guede's final appeal

Quote:

b) traces attributable to Guede: a palm print in blood found on the pillow case of a pillow lying under the victim's body – attributed with absolute certainty to the defendant by its correspondence to papillary ridges as well as 16-17 characteristic points equal in shape and position

I am just randomly reading trying to nail down Guede's timeline and thought I would post this since I came across it here:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/vie....php?f=8&t=516

ETA and from the same source, in rejecting the appeal:

Quote:

[There are] many key points constituting the epistemic factual premises that would condition the set of decisions of the judge, with respect to the logical inference about a correspondence between the guilty verdict and the reality of the homicidal fact linked to the guilty conduct of the defendant:
a) the incontrovertible and undisputed traces of Guede's DNA and fingerprints of at the scene of the crime and on the victim's body: on the vaginal swab, on the pillowcase placed under the buttock region of the body, on the cuff of the left sleeve of the sweatshirt found on the floor close to the body, on the bra found by the feet of the girl’s lifeless body, and on toilet paper found in the bathroom used by Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti.

[RoseMontague]

I think undisputed is the key word there, maybe I can add invisible as well.

[anglolawyer]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague

I think undisputed is the key word there, maybe I can add invisible as well.

Indisputably invisible, maybe, but the point is that it appears Guede did not dispute the evidence that his palm print was on the pillow. Which is odd.

[JREF2010]

Anyone have more information on the Merlin bartender who confronted Rudy,in the apartment?

I was watching the youtube video Sex,lies and Meredith Kercher this weekend.. Nathan Abrahms, (if that is the correct name), he said that he spoke of Rudy being the one in this crime, as a lone wolf. If I recall Rudy had pulled a knife on this person.

thought this aligns to this thread name.

[JREF2010]

From the Telegraph.co.uk (5-Dec-09)
"Guede was already well known to police by the time he killed Miss Kercher. As well as being a drug dealer with a criminal record for minor drugs offences, he had been held in Milan in the weeks before the murder for an alleged theft. On that occasion, he broke into a school to hide from police and, significantly, had a knife in his hand when he was eventually arrested."
In the above incident in Milan on 27-Oct-07 police caught Guede with property stolen from a law office in Perugia a couple of weeks earlier. The break-in at the Perugia law office was similar in all respects to the entry at the crime scene -- second story window broken with a rock, etc.
Guede had according to Cristian Tramontano been caught having broken into Tramontano's house. He brandished a knife during his escape.
Guede had an abdominal scar from a knife fight a couple of years before the murder.
According to the first hand statement of Nathan Abraham on the CBS segment of 48 Hrs, Guede had been in a knife fight with one of Abraham's bar tenders
8***********************
Maria Del Prato - Milan School Nursery School Owner
“I walked in through the entrance of the nursery… so I walked up the stairs and I found a man [Rudy Guede] coming out of my office; and I was shocked."
“They [the police] found in his backpack they found a knife that he had stolen from our kitchen and a set of keys, stolen keys, and some other stolen goods. We all had the feeling this was a dangerous person..

*************************
"Everybody knows Rudy. Even if you don’t know his name he’s the classic Italian girl-botherer, the guy at the bar who’s making advances to women and just doesn’t get the picture that they’re not interested. That’s Rudy Guede in a word."
********************
Judge Paolo Micheli
"In fact, this court believes that to enter that window you would not really need to be Spiderman, as the Tribunale per il Riesame claims in its hypothesis: it requires a man physically agile, as certainly Guede was, and certainly as are the burglars who visit the apartments of people at night."
********************************
Nick Pisa reported police found a fingerprint in Meredith's room but it didn't match with Raffaele or Amanda. "It did match 22-year old Rudy Guede, a local thief known to carry a knife."
***************************
"People knew who Rudy was," says Nathan Abraham, a local pub worker at the club where Meredith went on the night she was killed. "We found out he (Guede) tried to rob one of our bartenders, where he went into his house, had a little scuffle with a knife. He was one of those people you kinda - you knew him, but you stayed a little far away from him."

[JREF2010]

I was just noticing the picture of Rudys cut hand, taken in Germany.

The cut to be one single cut, as Rudy said it happened, didnt make sense due to the cuts not aligning in the picture. At least not in a hand spread flat, if defending against someone with a knife swiping at you and you hold your hand out in protection.

The cuts on rudys fingers do align to someone who had their hand cupped, as if holding a knife or round object.....then the single cut on each finger aligns in a straight line.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/142c80j.jpg

[anglolawyer]

Originally Posted by JREF2010

I was just noticing the picture of Rudys cut hand, taken in Germany.

The cut to be one single cut, as Rudy said it happened, didnt make sense due to the cuts not aligning in the picture. At least not in a hand spread flat, if defending against someone with a knife swiping at you and you hold your hand out in protection.

The cuts on rudys fingers do align to someone who had their hand cupped, as if holding a knife or round object.....then the single cut on each finger aligns in a straight line.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/142c80j.jpg

I suppose he could claim to have grabbed the blade when his hand would be cupped around it.

[JREF2010]

for what its worth...

Rudys Skype-nov 19,2007
and this guy took a knife and I've got wounds on my hands because I grabbed his hand,
he tried to stab me and I still have the wounds on my hands, the signs, that are healing now, but I still have
them on my hand.. I tried to help her, Giacomo, it's not that...my blood, no, I don't know if there is any or not, because I
didn't bleed, I didn't actually bleed, my wounds that I had, the guy just wounded me lightly, it didn't bleed,
now I can't tell you...

German Diary-
>He tried to hit me, but I knew how to defend myself , in contrast to Meredith. He hit me on the hand. It was sharp.It seemed like a scalpel. Only grazing me, it created a deep injury, but I fell to the ground.

>He had the knife in his hand and he tried to get me. I tried to shield myself with my hand but it was a sharp knife. Only brushing against me it made small but deep cuts. Like a scalpel, it only needs to brush against you and it cuts.

I wonder what is the common reflex of a right handed person to fend off a knife attack? Would he use the left or Right hand generally??

But being cupped doesnt make sense in Rudys descriptions, he doesnt mention clearly he grabbed the scalpel blade, yet his hand appears to have been cupped looking at the wound.