On Consciousness - Page 105

steenkh · Today, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Piggy

Making decisions, per se, does not REQUIRE consciousness.

Surprising, yes, but that's what the evidence clearly shows.

Yet not so surprising when you watch, for example, plants make decisions.

This seems to be dependent on what is meant by a decision.

Originally Posted by Piggy

Now you're simply tailoring your definitions to suit your needs.

Of COURSE deciding which emotion a person is feeling based on their facial expression is a decision-making process.

So any recognition process is a decision-making process? And you accuse me of tailoring my definitions to suit my needs!

Piggy · Today, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by steenkh

So any recognition process is a decision-making process? And you accuse me of tailoring my definitions to suit my needs!

Well, in a way, yes, because recognizing means deciding what a thing is from among the choices of what it might be, but we won't draw the definition that closely.

In this case, we're not talking about "recognizing" a face.

We're talking about seeing a face and deciding which emotion that face is expressing.

But according to your definition, a daughter vine is conscious, because you can place the vine between two different potential hosts, and the daughter vine will actively decide which one to go to. And that's ridiculous.

Also, we've documented extensively how our brains perform decision-making well before our conscious minds have any inkling of what's going on.

And we're not free to simply decide that this means those other areas are conscious because (1) there's no phenomenology involved, and (2) the signature indicators of consciousness aren't present.

Fellow Traveler · Today, 04:14 PM

When i was circumcised, it was widely believed that babies didn't feel pain.
My college biology professor tried to convince me that frogs couldn't feel pain>>>>>>>

Two interesting comments there. Need your professor to come forward and explain the second.

Mr. Scott · Today, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

When i was circumcised, it was widely believed that babies didn't feel pain.
My college biology professor tried to convince me that frogs couldn't feel pain>>>>>>>

Two interesting comments there. Need your professor to come forward and explain the second.

My dad didn't believe dogs (and most all animals) had feelings. He grew up on a farm. There's lots of wishful thinking involved in assessing the level of consciousness of animals and machines. Your biology professor, I surmise, hoped the frogs he asked his students to vivisect didn't have that "feelings" magic bean. Funny how people are so confident in their guesses about other beings' internal subjective experiences.

Consciousness is a kind of data processing and the brain is a machine that can be replicated in other substrates, such as general purpose computers.	81	86.17%
Consciousness requires a second substance outside the physical material world, currently undetectable by scientific instruments	3	3.19%
On Planet X, unconscious biological beings have perfected conscious machines	10	10.64%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

Today, 09:31 AM	#4161
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,477	Originally Posted by Piggy Making decisions, per se, does not REQUIRE consciousness. Surprising, yes, but that's what the evidence clearly shows. Yet not so surprising when you watch, for example, plants make decisions. This seems to be dependent on what is meant by a decision. Originally Posted by Piggy Now you're simply tailoring your definitions to suit your needs. Of COURSE deciding which emotion a person is feeling based on their facial expression is a decision-making process. So any recognition process is a decision-making process? And you accuse me of tailoring my definitions to suit my needs!
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

Today, 11:38 AM	#4162
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,360	Originally Posted by steenkh So any recognition process is a decision-making process? And you accuse me of tailoring my definitions to suit my needs! Well, in a way, yes, because recognizing means deciding what a thing is from among the choices of what it might be, but we won't draw the definition that closely. In this case, we're not talking about "recognizing" a face. We're talking about seeing a face and deciding which emotion that face is expressing. But according to your definition, a daughter vine is conscious, because you can place the vine between two different potential hosts, and the daughter vine will actively decide which one to go to. And that's ridiculous. Also, we've documented extensively how our brains perform decision-making well before our conscious minds have any inkling of what's going on. And we're not free to simply decide that this means those other areas are conscious because (1) there's no phenomenology involved, and (2) the signature indicators of consciousness aren't present.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

Today, 04:14 PM	#4163
Fellow Traveler Scholar Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 95	When i was circumcised, it was widely believed that babies didn't feel pain. My college biology professor tried to convince me that frogs couldn't feel pain>>>>>>> Two interesting comments there. Need your professor to come forward and explain the second.
Fellow Traveler Scholar Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 95	__________________ In this respect early youth is exactly like old age; it is a time of waiting for a big trip to an unknown destination. The chief difference is that youth waits for the morning limited and age waits for the night train. Bruce Catton

Today, 05:41 PM	#4164
Mr. Scott Under the Amazing One's Wing Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA Posts: 2,281	Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler When i was circumcised, it was widely believed that babies didn't feel pain. My college biology professor tried to convince me that frogs couldn't feel pain>>>>>>> Two interesting comments there. Need your professor to come forward and explain the second. My dad didn't believe dogs (and most all animals) had feelings. He grew up on a farm. There's lots of wishful thinking involved in assessing the level of consciousness of animals and machines. Your biology professor, I surmise, hoped the frogs he asked his students to vivisect didn't have that "feelings" magic bean. Funny how people are so confident in their guesses about other beings' internal subjective experiences.
	__________________ "thhere's waaaay too much colonialism and white supremacy in our culture to even THINK about addressing the religion of brown people, the end." A+ Global Moderator ceepolk, Dec. 9, 2012