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#1 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 9,536
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Pole-position goniometer
While checking out the physics department last night, I saw a piece of equipment sitting in the hall. All precision-machined bits and gears and clamps... Wondered what it was.
The label said...Pole-position goniometer. Fascinating. Didn't tell me a thing. So...Google. There were four or five citations I attempted to read through. It was worse that Star Trek techno-speak. I now know it has something to do with X-ray examination of crystals, but beyond that nothing. Any physicists in the house? |
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#2 |
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The Jester
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The wet coast.
Posts: 8,706
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I seem to recall that it's a thing for holding a crystal in an X-ray beam at a particular angle (which can be changed), so that the diffraction of X-rays from the crystal can be measured. You mount the crystal on the goniometer, send a beam of X-rays at it, rotate the crystal through all possible angles, and measure the intensity of the X-rays bouncing off as a function of the angle.
This may sound like a particularly useless thing to do, but it enables you to determine the distances and angles between the various atoms that make up the crystal, allowing you to basically build a perfect model of the molecules of the crystal (not just seeing the structure, but measuring all the bond lengths and angles as well). So you get molecular pictures like these:
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__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker |
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#3 |
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The Jester
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The wet coast.
Posts: 8,706
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The one on the right is from my thesis work.
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__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker |
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#4 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,638
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Sounds like a sex toy.
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#5 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 9,536
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Thanks for the lucid explanation. I do agree that "goniometer" sounds like a Japanese sex toy.
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#6 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,220
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#7 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,454
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#8 |
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Muse
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 820
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Offhand I'd guess it's an alkynyl-bridged heterobinuclear complex of rhodium and iridium.
(Ok, I cheated...) |
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#9 | |||
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Expert Expertologist
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,683
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Now I have the theme song stuck in my head.
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__________________
Pixelated Reality | Alareth Does Art! Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak |
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#10 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,454
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That was evil.
Why did I have to watch the whole thing? |
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#11 |
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The Jester
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The wet coast.
Posts: 8,706
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__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker |
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#12 |
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Guest
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 285
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So, "I seem to recall..." means, "I have this totally covered, having done x-ray crystallography work for my thesis." Clever dog. Why not whip out the diffraction equation and some quantum mechanics while you are at it?
The goniometer idea is both simple and complex. Incoming particles (typically photons) interact with a sample (bounce off of it). It is usually easier to think in terms of waves and wavelengths. When the angle at which they bounce off means that an integer number of the waves reinforce, you get a nice signal. X-rays have a good wavelength range to probe many materials, as the atomic spacings are the right size to give good diffraction patterns (spread the incoming x-ray photons into readable spectra). |
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#13 |
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Muse
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 820
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#14 |
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The Jester
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The wet coast.
Posts: 8,706
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Not really- I made the compound and grew the crystal, and then begged Bob the crystallographer to run it for me. He eventually said, "Sure- just let me put it on the goniometer head", to which I replied, "The gonny-what?"
My memory of how crystallography works is minimal- I don't remember the diffraction eq'n, and I barely remembered making that particular compound until I saw the ORTEP. |
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__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker |
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#15 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 313
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Ah, those were the days (+20 year ago). Just to add that even in those days, X-ray crystallography was the cheapest and preferred method for determination of molecular structure. (Of course, you had to grow a sizeable crystal - approx. 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 mm - and this was sometimes problematic.)
With the old instruments, the time it took to index a particular crystal was 4-8 hours (this is the preliminary in solving the structure, you get unique space group parameters) and maybe another 24-48 hours to collect a data-set. Modern CCD X-ray diffraction instruments can index structures in something like 10 minutes, and collect a data set in as little as an hour. The software has also become proportionately powerful. Even a duffer can solve an X-ray crystal structure with a little guidance. As a bonus, the crystal size you can use for experiments is something you can barely see sometimes (0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 mm for example) - when you see a X-ray diffraction specialist these days the common response is that the crystals are too big and have to be cut. In the old days the crystals were always too small. |
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#16 |
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Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a world lit only by fire.
Posts: 17,894
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I'm familiar with the appearance, function and use of goniometers, having done an undergraduate physics course many, many years ago that included an XRD experiment on the practical course. (I don't get involved in anything that subtle these days as all the crystals I work with are cubic with known axes.) The bit I don't recognise is the "Pole Position" part. Is this just such a flashy and brilliant goniometer that it has a natural head start over all other goniometers? (Sorry.) Or does it just describe the way the goniometer mounts the sample in the X-ray beam? And has anyone else noticed how much fun it is to say "goniometer"?
Dave |
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"We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member |
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#17 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,750
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It shouldn't be confused with the goninometer, a delicate device used to measure Glaswegian expressions of desire for an action to desist.
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#18 |
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Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The other side of your screen
Posts: 43,038
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__________________
Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach. |
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#19 |
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Decoy
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies
Posts: 16,597
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__________________
I am not a little teapot. |
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#20 |
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The Jester
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The wet coast.
Posts: 8,706
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My crystallographic day was just over ten years ago. Right near the end of my thesis work, we got a new CCD detector, which meant that all the crystals that I was throwing away because they were too small for diffraction were now suddenly just right. I think I got three structures out of five just in the last few months of work.
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__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker |
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#21 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,220
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Yeah, that's definitely cheating. If you're illuminating more than one grain at a time with your beam, then your sample is more than one grain.
On the other end of the spectrum, with neutron scattering they brag about how big they can get their crystals. As in, multiple cubic centimeters with some materials. |
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#22 |
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The Jester
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The wet coast.
Posts: 8,706
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__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker |
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#23 |
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Expert Expertologist
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,683
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__________________
Pixelated Reality | Alareth Does Art! Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak |
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#24 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,454
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#25 |
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NLH
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 25,885
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#26 |
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Scatterer of X-rays
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 742
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It's possibly a slight mis-speaking. Should probably be a pole-figure goniometer. As others have said, a goniometer is a device for centering and orienting a crystal in an x-ray beam for crystallographic analysis.
If your sample is a perfect single crystal, the reflections from individual crystal planes will always occur at the same angle with a given intensity. However, if you have an imperfect crystal, the planes will have a spread of orientations and intensities. By following the angular dependence of a peak intensity, you can determine the distribution of crystal plane orientations. This is done by constructing a pole figure. If you have a sample that is composed of many small crystallites, as in powder crystallography, the average intensity of reflections from all of the crystallites converge to the 1-dimensional projection of the 3-dimensional data set you would get from a single crystal. However, if for some reason you have a preferred orientation in your sample, if your crystallites are platey or needle-like they will tend to align, and some reflections will be over-represented in your data set. A pole figure can be used to determine and quantify this "texture" in your sample. |
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