A future without jobs? - Page 3

hodgy · 8th March 2013, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Actually, what the corporate masters like is high unemployment in the relatively narrow fields that the individual corporate master hires from, so that the individual corporate master can pick the best people without paying a lot.

The individual corporate master wants the rest of the economy to have full employment with robust pay, so that there are a lot of customers who can afford to pay a lot for the individual corporate master's products, which he/she is able to make cheaply because of the low labor rates in his/her particular specialty.

Whilst there may be some specific examples where this is true, I think in general it isn't. You are assuming some perfect world for the 'corporate master' where there is little demand for the production skill sets but lots of demand for the products.

dasmiller · 8th March 2013, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by hodgy

Whilst there may be some specific examples where this is true, I think in general it isn't. You are assuming some perfect world for the 'corporate master' where there is little demand for the production skill sets but lots of demand for the products.

I'm saying that's what the 'corporate masters' want. I'm not saying that's the situation that they usually find themselves in.

Roger Ramjets · 8th March 2013, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

I'm saying that's what the 'corporate masters' want. I'm not saying that's the situation that they usually find themselves in.

What the corporate masters want is to amass all the capital for themselves. That's what capitalism is all about!

Of course in practice that doesn't work. Wealth inequality progresses until it becomes self-limiting, as the workers aren't being paid enough to afford all the goods and services that the capitalists are trying to sell, and the capitalists have vastly more wealth than they can use on themselves.

So what's next? When robots become sophisticated enough to do all the jobs that you previously needed people for (including designing and manufacturing new robots) you will no longer need people. Just let them starve to death, it's no problem because now you have robots to do your bidding.

Originally Posted by Mark6

Asimov wrote himself into corner there. Spacer worlds were supposed to be unsympathetic and dead-end, but he had no plausible mechanism for them to come TO an end.

No, he simply extrapolated the obvious result of wedding capitalism with advanced technology. If we continue to worship capitalism then virtual extinction is the inescapable conclusion. To spread the wealth around so that everybody benefits we need a different economic system.

Fellow Traveler · 10th March 2013, 08:19 AM

A future guy decided to protest the take over of all job by robots. He thinks of all the bad weather and possible lists he mihgt added to so he sent his butler robot. This robot misread the IA 3 rules and joined the robot workforce.

Fellow Traveler · 10th March 2013, 08:20 AM

A future guy decided to protest the take over of all job by robots. He thinks of all the bad weather and possible lists he might be added to, so he sent his butler robot. This robot misread the IA 3 rules and joined the robot workforce.

Mark6 · 13th March 2013, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

No, he simply extrapolated the obvious result of wedding capitalism with advanced technology. If we continue to worship capitalism then virtual extinction is the inescapable conclusion. To spread the wealth around so that everybody benefits we need a different economic system.

You cut my quote, conveniently omitting the parts which show Asimov "extrapolated" nothing of the kind:

Originally Posted by Mark6

Asimov wrote himself into corner there. Spacer worlds were supposed to be unsympathetic and dead-end, but he had no plausible mechanism for them to come TO an end. In "Foundation and Earth" -- the book which brings Foundation series and robot series together, -- protagonists visit Aurora and Solaria. On Aurora (and presumably all other Spacer worlds) humans are extinct, but Asimov never explained how exactly they became extinct. On Solaria humans genetically engineered themselves into hermaphrodites who have no need for personal contact at all -- but one Solarian we meet acts very implausibly given these premises. There are only 1200 Solarians, but their society is not only stable, but might be a danger to base humanity which outnumbers them about trillion to one -- the very end of the book hints to that, and Asimov may have planned a sequel. None of it makes much sense.

Spacer worlds had many faults, but concentration of wealth was not among them. Asimov made a point that the poorest on Aurora lived better than Earth's aristocrats, while on Solaria there was no inequality at all -- all humans (later, post-humans) were equally rich, each one with average of 10,000 robots.

AlBell · 28th March 2013, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mark6

I am yet to see a coffee out of a vending machine which does not taste like dishwater.

Some people seem to think instant coffee is actually coffee. Yeeck!

8th March 2013, 04:16 PM	#81
hodgy Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 945	Originally Posted by dasmiller Actually, what the corporate masters like is high unemployment in the relatively narrow fields that the individual corporate master hires from, so that the individual corporate master can pick the best people without paying a lot. The individual corporate master wants the rest of the economy to have full employment with robust pay, so that there are a lot of customers who can afford to pay a lot for the individual corporate master's products, which he/she is able to make cheaply because of the low labor rates in his/her particular specialty. Whilst there may be some specific examples where this is true, I think in general it isn't. You are assuming some perfect world for the 'corporate master' where there is little demand for the production skill sets but lots of demand for the products.
hodgy Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 945	__________________ Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

8th March 2013, 04:27 PM	#82
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 3,462	Originally Posted by hodgy Whilst there may be some specific examples where this is true, I think in general it isn't. You are assuming some perfect world for the 'corporate master' where there is little demand for the production skill sets but lots of demand for the products. I'm saying that's what the 'corporate masters' want. I'm not saying that's the situation that they usually find themselves in.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

8th March 2013, 05:56 PM	#83
Roger Ramjets Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 714	Originally Posted by dasmiller I'm saying that's what the 'corporate masters' want. I'm not saying that's the situation that they usually find themselves in. What the corporate masters want is to amass all the capital for themselves. That's what capitalism is all about! Of course in practice that doesn't work. Wealth inequality progresses until it becomes self-limiting, as the workers aren't being paid enough to afford all the goods and services that the capitalists are trying to sell, and the capitalists have vastly more wealth than they can use on themselves. So what's next? When robots become sophisticated enough to do all the jobs that you previously needed people for (including designing and manufacturing new robots) you will no longer need people. Just let them starve to death, it's no problem because now you have robots to do your bidding. Originally Posted by Mark6 Asimov wrote himself into corner there. Spacer worlds were supposed to be unsympathetic and dead-end, but he had no plausible mechanism for them to come TO an end. No, he simply extrapolated the obvious result of wedding capitalism with advanced technology. If we continue to worship capitalism then virtual extinction is the inescapable conclusion. To spread the wealth around so that everybody benefits we need a different economic system.
Roger Ramjets Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 714	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

10th March 2013, 08:19 AM	#84
Fellow Traveler Scholar Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 95	A future guy decided to protest the take over of all job by robots. He thinks of all the bad weather and possible lists he mihgt added to so he sent his butler robot. This robot misread the IA 3 rules and joined the robot workforce.
Fellow Traveler Scholar Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 95	__________________ In this respect early youth is exactly like old age; it is a time of waiting for a big trip to an unknown destination. The chief difference is that youth waits for the morning limited and age waits for the night train. Bruce Catton

10th March 2013, 08:20 AM	#85
Fellow Traveler Scholar Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 95	A future guy decided to protest the take over of all job by robots. He thinks of all the bad weather and possible lists he might be added to, so he sent his butler robot. This robot misread the IA 3 rules and joined the robot workforce.
Fellow Traveler Scholar Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 95	__________________ In this respect early youth is exactly like old age; it is a time of waiting for a big trip to an unknown destination. The chief difference is that youth waits for the morning limited and age waits for the night train. Bruce Catton

13th March 2013, 12:57 PM	#86
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets No, he simply extrapolated the obvious result of wedding capitalism with advanced technology. If we continue to worship capitalism then virtual extinction is the inescapable conclusion. To spread the wealth around so that everybody benefits we need a different economic system. You cut my quote, conveniently omitting the parts which show Asimov "extrapolated" nothing of the kind: Originally Posted by Mark6 Asimov wrote himself into corner there. Spacer worlds were supposed to be unsympathetic and dead-end, but he had no plausible mechanism for them to come TO an end. In "Foundation and Earth" -- the book which brings Foundation series and robot series together, -- protagonists visit Aurora and Solaria. On Aurora (and presumably all other Spacer worlds) humans are extinct, but Asimov never explained how exactly they became extinct. On Solaria humans genetically engineered themselves into hermaphrodites who have no need for personal contact at all -- but one Solarian we meet acts very implausibly given these premises. There are only 1200 Solarians, but their society is not only stable, but might be a danger to base humanity which outnumbers them about trillion to one -- the very end of the book hints to that, and Asimov may have planned a sequel. None of it makes much sense. Spacer worlds had many faults, but concentration of wealth was not among them. Asimov made a point that the poorest on Aurora lived better than Earth's aristocrats, while on Solaria there was no inequality at all -- all humans (later, post-humans) were equally rich, each one with average of 10,000 robots.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'" Last edited by Mark6; 13th March 2013 at 12:59 PM.

28th March 2013, 03:11 PM	#87
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,500	Originally Posted by Mark6 I am yet to see a coffee out of a vending machine which does not taste like dishwater. Some people seem to think instant coffee is actually coffee. Yeeck!
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,500