A doctor on why late abortion should remain legal

Dcdrac · 14th November 2012, 06:33 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...d-remain-legal

Dr Frances Marks worked as a child psychiatrist from 1975 to 1998. As a consultant at London hospital she advised on the impact of late abortions.

My most memorable experience as a medical student occurred in the 1960s, some time before the 1967 Abortion Act made terminations legal in the UK.

It was winter, 6am, and I was still asleep. The phone rang and a voice ordered me up to join the ambulance of the obstetric flying squad. We arrived at a cheap hotel in Finsbury Park, north London; our patient was a plump young girl with auburn hair and the creamy skin of a Rubens nude. She lay unconscious on a single bed, her bewildered parents to one side. The GP was a tired gaunt man, who told us that his examination indicated that she had had an illegal abortion some time in the last 48 hours. Her blood pressure was dangerously low.

3point14 · 14th November 2012, 06:35 AM

Isn't that more damning of illegal abortions rather than late ones?

Silly Green Monkey · 14th November 2012, 06:37 AM

When late ones are not available, what is left but illegal ones?

3point14 · 14th November 2012, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

When late ones are not available, what is left but illegal ones?

Carrying to term?

But I do see your point.

Rolfe · 14th November 2012, 06:59 AM

The reason late abortion should remain legal is that sometimes late terminations are the only humane way to deal with certain foetal abnormalities and situations which threaten the life of the mother.

Advocating for late abortions in order to pander to women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester is appalling.

Rolfe.

pgwenthold · 14th November 2012, 07:31 AM

Moreover, if abortions are illegal, then women will be less likely to avail themselves of all the services that medical care provides, which includes counseling that could actually help her resolve her issues without having to resort to abortion.

The last thing you want for a woman in dire straights and an unwanted pregnancy is to feel they need to resolve their problem on their own. She may feel her only recourse is to abort. However, if she can do it through a legally allowed process, she may be able to talk to people who can help her realize there are other options.

IOW, keeping late term abortions legal may help reduce their numbers.

Rolfe · 14th November 2012, 08:07 AM

It may also encourage women to shilly-shally and procrastinate. Thus leading to the appalling situation where a healthy baby capable of being born alive and surviving is removed from the uterus and then killed.

There's a lot of euphemistic talk going on around this subject, for example describing a three-month foetus as a "ball of cells", which it certainly is not. There may be situations where killing a late-term foetus is the least worst option, but allowing that willy-nilly as a substitute for contraception is not one of them.

Rolfe.

Aepervius · 14th November 2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The reason late abortion should remain legal is that sometimes late terminations are the only humane way to deal with certain foetal abnormalities and situations which threaten the life of the mother.

Advocating for late abortions in order to pander to women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester is appalling.

Rolfe.

Unless it is , as mentionned in the article a raped 14 year old girl which confided at the 5th month. There I am not sure how I would go (abortion or not), but that certainly is not easy as "women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester ".

Professor Yaffle · 14th November 2012, 08:20 AM

In the vast majority of abortions after 18 weeks, the delay was due to the woman not knowing they were pregnant in the early stages:

http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/docume...20abortion.pdf

It is hardly being "too disorganised to sort themselves out".

Rolfe · 14th November 2012, 08:21 AM

Fair enough, I agree that hard cases make bad law. I'm still not persuaded that this sort of situation is sufficient to open the door to all and sundry to delay a decision on a social abortion until the baby is viable.

Rolfe.

sophia8 · 14th November 2012, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

The last thing you want for a woman in dire straights and an unwanted pregnancy is to feel they need to resolve their problem on their own. She may feel her only recourse is to abort. However, if she can do it through a legally allowed process, she may be able to talk to people who can help her realize there are other options.

There's no 'may' about it. Clinics (in the UK at least) already do that.

Rolfe · 14th November 2012, 09:22 AM

Also, I'm confused about the "remain" part. Termination isn't allowed after 24 weeks. If this is an argument that it ought to be, I have to say I'm not persuaded. It's a story about something that happened many years ago under entirely different circumstances, and I don't see its relevance to 2012 at all.

Rolfe.

Professor Yaffle · 14th November 2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Termination isn't allowed after 24 weeks.

Yes it is - but only in certain circumstances:

-if it is necessary to save the woman's life
-to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman
-if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities and be seriously handicapped

Also, by "late" abortions, the author seems to be referring to those performed between 20 and 24 weeks - in response to the suggestion that the limit be reduced to 20 weeks:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...bortion-rights

Rolfe · 14th November 2012, 09:47 AM

Indeed, and quite right too. It wasn't clear to me that this was what the OP was referring to. If it was, I'm far from convinced that it's a good example to use.

Rolfe.

fuelair · 14th November 2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...d-remain-legal

Dr Frances Marks worked as a child psychiatrist from 1975 to 1998. As a consultant at London hospital she advised on the impact of late abortions.

My most memorable experience as a medical student occurred in the 1960s, some time before the 1967 Abortion Act made terminations legal in the UK.

It was winter, 6am, and I was still asleep. The phone rang and a voice ordered me up to join the ambulance of the obstetric flying squad. We arrived at a cheap hotel in Finsbury Park, north London; our patient was a plump young girl with auburn hair and the creamy skin of a Rubens nude. She lay unconscious on a single bed, her bewildered parents to one side. The GP was a tired gaunt man, who told us that his examination indicated that she had had an illegal abortion some time in the last 48 hours. Her blood pressure was dangerously low.

Since I fully and absolutely support abortion at any point the woman chooses that option, I am in full agreement!!!! I accept no kind of argument that provides for any left. AND I truly enjoy little kids!!!!!!!! That has no bearing on the woman's choice and my support of it!!

fuelair · 14th November 2012, 10:21 AM

DUPLICATE - by accident and lack of normal warning!!!

fuelair · 14th November 2012, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Carrying to term?

But I do see your point.

No.

Rolfe · 14th November 2012, 11:07 AM

Any time at all? Even a week or two before the due date? How are you thinking of killing the baby in that situation?

Rolfe.

RandyN · 14th November 2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Since I fully and absolutely support abortion at any point the woman chooses that option, I am in full agreement!!!! I accept no kind of argument that provides for any left. AND I truly enjoy little kids!!!!!!!! That has no bearing on the woman's choice and my support of it!!

I promise you would change your view as you assist a late term abortion and watch or actually perform the killing of a crying viable infant. Know how they do that? They sever the spine with a strong pair of scissors...just at the hairline on the back of the neck.

Sure there are rare necessary situations...but mostly it is as Rolfe describes...messing about in some sort of denial.

Travis · 14th November 2012, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Carrying to term?

But I do see your point.

Obviously it isn't always feasible. And the reality is that very few women would abort late if it is available.

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Any time at all? Even a week or two before the due date? How are you thinking of killing the baby in that situation?

Rolfe.

Scrambling the brain ought to do the trick.

Originally Posted by RandyN

I promise you would change your view as you assist a late term abortion and watch or actually perform the killing of a crying viable infant. Know how they do that? They sever the spine with a strong pair of scissors...just at the hairline on the back of the neck.

Sure there are rare necessary situations...but mostly it is as Rolfe describes...messing about in some sort of denial.

I'm aware of how they kill the baby. Doesn't change my opinion that it should be an option.

Rolfe · 15th November 2012, 01:29 AM

Frankly, I'm appalled. Actually, I don't know words strong enough to express how appalled I am.

Have the damn baby and give it up for adoption. How can any woman live with herself in later life knowing that she'd done that to her own baby?

Rolfe.

Rairun · 15th November 2012, 05:46 AM

Human babies are born pretty underdeveloped in the first place - they are by no means what we recognize as "human" in terms of cognitive development. I feel a lot more sympathy for dogs or cats, for example, when they are old enough to be curious, wide-eyed little critters. So no, I can't see why late term abortions are considered such a huge ethical conundrum. Newborn humans aren't just "a lump of cells", but they behave with less sophistication than cows, which incidentally we eat every day.

I'm not saying that killing newborn babies should be legal, by the way. We have to draw the line somewhere, and birth seems to be a pretty safe place to do it.

LibraryLady · 15th November 2012, 08:27 AM

I find it strange that I'm not finding a reference to this in this thread.

Professor Yaffle · 15th November 2012, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by LibraryLady

I find it strange that I'm not finding a reference to this in this thread.

Maybe because there is a separate thread on it:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=247794

LibraryLady · 15th November 2012, 08:53 AM

Thanks, I had been looking for the thread and couldn't find it!

14th November 2012, 06:33 AM	#1
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,678	A doctor on why late abortion should remain legal http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...d-remain-legal Dr Frances Marks worked as a child psychiatrist from 1975 to 1998. As a consultant at London hospital she advised on the impact of late abortions. My most memorable experience as a medical student occurred in the 1960s, some time before the 1967 Abortion Act made terminations legal in the UK. It was winter, 6am, and I was still asleep. The phone rang and a voice ordered me up to join the ambulance of the obstetric flying squad. We arrived at a cheap hotel in Finsbury Park, north London; our patient was a plump young girl with auburn hair and the creamy skin of a Rubens nude. She lay unconscious on a single bed, her bewildered parents to one side. The GP was a tired gaunt man, who told us that his examination indicated that she had had an illegal abortion some time in the last 48 hours. Her blood pressure was dangerously low.
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,678

14th November 2012, 06:35 AM	#2
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,596	Isn't that more damning of illegal abortions rather than late ones?
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

14th November 2012, 06:37 AM	#3
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,047	When late ones are not available, what is left but illegal ones?
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14th November 2012, 06:42 AM	#4
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,596	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey When late ones are not available, what is left but illegal ones? Carrying to term? But I do see your point.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

14th November 2012, 06:59 AM	#5
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	The reason late abortion should remain legal is that sometimes late terminations are the only humane way to deal with certain foetal abnormalities and situations which threaten the life of the mother. Advocating for late abortions in order to pander to women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester is appalling. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

14th November 2012, 07:31 AM	#6
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,069	Moreover, if abortions are illegal, then women will be less likely to avail themselves of all the services that medical care provides, which includes counseling that could actually help her resolve her issues without having to resort to abortion. The last thing you want for a woman in dire straights and an unwanted pregnancy is to feel they need to resolve their problem on their own. She may feel her only recourse is to abort. However, if she can do it through a legally allowed process, she may be able to talk to people who can help her realize there are other options. IOW, keeping late term abortions legal may help reduce their numbers.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

14th November 2012, 08:07 AM	#7
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	It may also encourage women to shilly-shally and procrastinate. Thus leading to the appalling situation where a healthy baby capable of being born alive and surviving is removed from the uterus and then killed. There's a lot of euphemistic talk going on around this subject, for example describing a three-month foetus as a "ball of cells", which it certainly is not. There may be situations where killing a late-term foetus is the least worst option, but allowing that willy-nilly as a substitute for contraception is not one of them. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

14th November 2012, 08:12 AM	#8
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,756	Originally Posted by Rolfe The reason late abortion should remain legal is that sometimes late terminations are the only humane way to deal with certain foetal abnormalities and situations which threaten the life of the mother. Advocating for late abortions in order to pander to women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester is appalling. Rolfe. Unless it is , as mentionned in the article a raped 14 year old girl which confided at the 5th month. There I am not sure how I would go (abortion or not), but that certainly is not easy as "women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester ".
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

14th November 2012, 08:20 AM	#9
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,351	In the vast majority of abortions after 18 weeks, the delay was due to the woman not knowing they were pregnant in the early stages: http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/docume...20abortion.pdf It is hardly being "too disorganised to sort themselves out".
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14th November 2012, 08:21 AM	#10
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	Fair enough, I agree that hard cases make bad law. I'm still not persuaded that this sort of situation is sufficient to open the door to all and sundry to delay a decision on a social abortion until the baby is viable. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

14th November 2012, 09:01 AM	#11
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the dark, dark forest.... Posts: 2,257	Originally Posted by pgwenthold The last thing you want for a woman in dire straights and an unwanted pregnancy is to feel they need to resolve their problem on their own. She may feel her only recourse is to abort. However, if she can do it through a legally allowed process, she may be able to talk to people who can help her realize there are other options. There's no 'may' about it. Clinics (in the UK at least) already do that.
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14th November 2012, 09:22 AM	#12
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	Also, I'm confused about the "remain" part. Termination isn't allowed after 24 weeks. If this is an argument that it ought to be, I have to say I'm not persuaded. It's a story about something that happened many years ago under entirely different circumstances, and I don't see its relevance to 2012 at all. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

14th November 2012, 09:43 AM	#13
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,351	Originally Posted by Rolfe Termination isn't allowed after 24 weeks. Yes it is - but only in certain circumstances: -if it is necessary to save the woman's life -to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman -if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities and be seriously handicapped Also, by "late" abortions, the author seems to be referring to those performed between 20 and 24 weeks - in response to the suggestion that the limit be reduced to 20 weeks: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...bortion-rights
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 14th November 2012 at 09:49 AM.

14th November 2012, 09:47 AM	#14
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	Indeed, and quite right too. It wasn't clear to me that this was what the OP was referring to. If it was, I'm far from convinced that it's a good example to use. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

14th November 2012, 10:20 AM	#15
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,949	Originally Posted by Dcdrac http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...d-remain-legal Dr Frances Marks worked as a child psychiatrist from 1975 to 1998. As a consultant at London hospital she advised on the impact of late abortions. My most memorable experience as a medical student occurred in the 1960s, some time before the 1967 Abortion Act made terminations legal in the UK. It was winter, 6am, and I was still asleep. The phone rang and a voice ordered me up to join the ambulance of the obstetric flying squad. We arrived at a cheap hotel in Finsbury Park, north London; our patient was a plump young girl with auburn hair and the creamy skin of a Rubens nude. She lay unconscious on a single bed, her bewildered parents to one side. The GP was a tired gaunt man, who told us that his examination indicated that she had had an illegal abortion some time in the last 48 hours. Her blood pressure was dangerously low. Since I fully and absolutely support abortion at any point the woman chooses that option, I am in full agreement!!!! I accept no kind of argument that provides for any left. AND I truly enjoy little kids!!!!!!!! That has no bearing on the woman's choice and my support of it!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,949	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! Last edited by fuelair; 14th November 2012 at 10:23 AM.

14th November 2012, 10:21 AM	#16
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,949	DUPLICATE - by accident and lack of normal warning!!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,949	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

14th November 2012, 10:23 AM	#17
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,949	Originally Posted by 3point14 Carrying to term? But I do see your point. No.
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14th November 2012, 11:07 AM	#18
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	Any time at all? Even a week or two before the due date? How are you thinking of killing the baby in that situation? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

14th November 2012, 07:04 PM	#19
RandyN Muse Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 705	Originally Posted by fuelair Since I fully and absolutely support abortion at any point the woman chooses that option, I am in full agreement!!!! I accept no kind of argument that provides for any left. AND I truly enjoy little kids!!!!!!!! That has no bearing on the woman's choice and my support of it!! I promise you would change your view as you assist a late term abortion and watch or actually perform the killing of a crying viable infant. Know how they do that? They sever the spine with a strong pair of scissors...just at the hairline on the back of the neck. Sure there are rare necessary situations...but mostly it is as Rolfe describes...messing about in some sort of denial.
RandyN Muse Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 705

14th November 2012, 07:11 PM	#20
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,943	Originally Posted by 3point14 Carrying to term? But I do see your point. Obviously it isn't always feasible. And the reality is that very few women would abort late if it is available. Originally Posted by Rolfe Any time at all? Even a week or two before the due date? How are you thinking of killing the baby in that situation? Rolfe. Scrambling the brain ought to do the trick. Originally Posted by RandyN I promise you would change your view as you assist a late term abortion and watch or actually perform the killing of a crying viable infant. Know how they do that? They sever the spine with a strong pair of scissors...just at the hairline on the back of the neck. Sure there are rare necessary situations...but mostly it is as Rolfe describes...messing about in some sort of denial. I'm aware of how they kill the baby. Doesn't change my opinion that it should be an option.
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15th November 2012, 01:29 AM	#21
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,328	Frankly, I'm appalled. Actually, I don't know words strong enough to express how appalled I am. Have the damn baby and give it up for adoption. How can any woman live with herself in later life knowing that she'd done that to her own baby? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

15th November 2012, 05:46 AM	#22
Rairun Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 479	Human babies are born pretty underdeveloped in the first place - they are by no means what we recognize as "human" in terms of cognitive development. I feel a lot more sympathy for dogs or cats, for example, when they are old enough to be curious, wide-eyed little critters. So no, I can't see why late term abortions are considered such a huge ethical conundrum. Newborn humans aren't just "a lump of cells", but they behave with less sophistication than cows, which incidentally we eat every day. I'm not saying that killing newborn babies should be legal, by the way. We have to draw the line somewhere, and birth seems to be a pretty safe place to do it.
Rairun Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 479

15th November 2012, 08:27 AM	#23
LibraryLady ...but not JUST a LibraryLady Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Building a house in the common ground Posts: 13,075	I find it strange that I'm not finding a reference to this in this thread.
	__________________ What would Hüsker Dü? I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about. Mildred Loving

15th November 2012, 08:37 AM	#24
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,351	Originally Posted by LibraryLady I find it strange that I'm not finding a reference to this in this thread. Maybe because there is a separate thread on it: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=247794
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

15th November 2012, 08:53 AM	#25
LibraryLady ...but not JUST a LibraryLady Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Building a house in the common ground Posts: 13,075	Thanks, I had been looking for the thread and couldn't find it!
	__________________ What would Hüsker Dü? I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about. Mildred Loving