How are things workwise in Europe really? - Page 4

RandFan · 23rd May 2012, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

Most of us manage to do just fine, thank you. Some of us not so much, this is true. But you simply can't solve all of a society's ills. What about all the people who don't get adequate food, clothes or shelter? What about the problem of crime? What about improving education? There are limited resources. I think our collective resources are better spent on other things.

That resources are finite doesn't tell us much. Americans already spend much more on health care than other countries and our costs are rising fastest. The notion that solving the health care problem will take from other programs doesn't seem to be a credible argument.

Rolfe · 23rd May 2012, 10:09 AM

Also, there are programmes to help people who can't afford adequate food, clothes and shelter. Tax relief for those on low income combined with social security benefits are designed to cover that.

The problem is that nobody's basic need for food, clothes and shelter is inordinate. Nobody needs a 15-room mansion with a swimming pool, or to dine every night at Gleneagles, or to dress in cloth of gold. Basic provision can be managed, and nobody should be going cold or hungry. In contrast many people have a need for healthcare expenditure which is in the "inordinate" bracket. You can't just give them an aspirin and a sticking plaster and call it sorted.

In a situation where only a small proportion of the total need a large amount spent on them, but we don't know who it will be, it makes perfect sense to pool the risk. That's what European countries do, and nobody argues about it. In the US even the insurance system is hell-bent on making the unfortunates who get high-ticket health problems pay for themselves, by excluding them from coverage. And of course they can't.

I just can't fathom the mentality that says, hey I'm lucky I have nothing wrong with me, to hell with the poor sod who needs a liver transplant, I'm going to keep my money. Considering what a small cost it is to each person to cover everyone, and when that happens the person doing the complaining also has the security of knowing that his own future needs are covered, it seems to me to be a no-brainer.

Rolfe.

Tatyana · 23rd May 2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Marcus

It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I don't often take vacations because I simply don't enjoy idleness. Yes. I know there are other things to do, and I will occasionally go skiing or sailing, but sitting around, even if it is on a beautiful beach or a cruise ship, is boring for me, my work is more fun. I feel lucky that I have work that is not toil that I need to get away from.

What an odd idea of a vacation.

My last holiday was visiting cultural and world heritage sites in Sri Lanka, Vietnam (we took the unification express from Hanoi to Saigon with quite a few stops on the way), Cambodia and the immensely impressive Angkor Wat temple complex (I really don't think I have seen anything on earth that has had me stand in awe as much as this place), the absolutely gorgeous country of Lao, and of course, Thailand.

Bangkok is absolutely an amazing city.

We did have about ten days in ten weeks that were on Thai beaches/islands, but it is really nice to break up the traveling with a bit of relaxation (and you can still experience the culture of the country if you choose the right island or beach).

Despite the beach time, it was anything but idle.

Our next trip is going to be Indonesia to do some volcano hiking and more ancient Hindu temple viewing, and if we can swing it in the autumn before Indonesia, a cruise down the Nile from Cairo to see many of the antiquities of Ancient Egypt.

Tourism is down in Egypt right now, so we may find we get a great deal on a cruise.

We might also see if we can do a couple of long weekend in either Barcelona or Berlin, and we will be doing more of the museum and art gallery thing in these cities.

I really do wonder if this has something to do with the amount of holiday we have.

If people only have two to three weeks of annual leave per year, they probably need a week for Christmas, a week of days here and there just for a break from work, and then, with only a week left, there really isn't that much time for traveling.

PS. I like my job, it is interesting, it requires continual professional development, it is challenging, it pays well, and it isn't because 'my job is a toil' that I love to travel.

Rolfe · 23rd May 2012, 02:08 PM

Oh, do the Nile cruise! I did Luxor to Aswan and back just days before it all erupted in January last year, and it was absolutely fabulous. Not much of the old sitting around, and in fact we had to get up at 3.30 one morning to get to see Abu Simbel before the sun left the front of the temples, but it was sure worth it.

Cairo is hell on earth, but you have to see the Museum, the Pyramids and the Sphynx. A couple of nights there is enough (though one of my cousins lived there for two years and said she loved every minute, no accounting for some people). But the rest of it is out of this world. And the tour guides are all MScs in Egyptology. You learn a heap of stuff.

Don't miss the son et lumiere show at the temple of Philae in Aswan, if you get that far. Worth every penny. If you aren't going so far (but you really really should), I believe there is a good one at Karnak too. The one at the Pyramids is OK, but I much preferred the one at Philae which leads the audience through the temple complex.

I'm thinking of not going abroad this year, because as I said I might have the chance to go on a trail riding week in the north of Scotland. Since the weather here turned absolutely fabulous at the beginning of this week the idea appeals more and more.

As you say, it should be possible to get a really good deal at the moment, and the attractions will almost certainly be less crowded. A friend of mine went the week they re-opened after the Luxor massacre, and he pretty much had Karnak to himself he told me.

It's nice that Marcus is so happy at work, although we may think he's missing out on an awful lot, and it's possible to have great holidays as well. But lots of people don't enjoy the daily grind all that much. Why do the Americans deny their whole nation the pleasures of travel and adventure?

Rolfe.

Marcus · 23rd May 2012, 03:41 PM

I suppose if I thought of my work as a daily grind, or as toil, as in the headlines from the post I was quoting, I would wish to avoid it.

I understand that a lot of people like to travel for pleasure, I have absolutely nothing against that. I am missing out on the pleasure they derive from the way they spend their time, as they are missing out on the pleasure I derive from the way I spend mine.

The bit about "Americans denying their whole nation the pleasures of travel and adventure" is so absurd it doesn't even seem worthy of a response.

Rolfe · 23rd May 2012, 04:16 PM

Well, you seem to be saying that because you like your work and don't care for holidays, that means it's all just peachy to restrict Americans in general to two weeks a year, during which time they mostly can't get out of the country. (The USA is a big and varied place, but it ain't the world, just sayin'.)

And I don't see in what way Tatyana and I are missing out on the pleasures you are getting. Both of us enjoy our work, and find it fascinating and challenging. We just think that we can get by with only spending about 46 weeks of the year on it, and it's nice to do other things as well. Which don't necessarily include sitting around.

Rolfe.

Marcus · 23rd May 2012, 05:31 PM

Most of my friends have regular jobs, where they have bosses (ugh) , 5 or 6 weeks of vacation and 8 or 10 holidays. It's not for me though. If you are saying that the US average is 2 weeks of vacation and holidays combined, I'm skeptical but I will go back through the thread and look for links if you say they are there.

If sightseeing is a more acceptable term, ok, I don't particularly enjoy it, although I wouldn't be averse to, say, skiing in the Alps or scuba diving in the Mediterranean.

I do quite a bit of business travel, and I do enjoy it, but it's not international, I rarely get more than 1,000 miles from home.

ETA: I do realize that your word "holiday" is equivalent to our " vacation", I just don't know what word you use for our "holiday".

Marcus · 23rd May 2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

And I don't see in what way Tatyana and I are missing out on the pleasures you are getting.

We all have a limited amount of time to spend. I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that whatever activities you doing on vacation are superior because they are not "work".

Tsukasa Buddha · 23rd May 2012, 08:36 PM

I have to say, the vacation thing is quite the culture shock for me. As a peon, I got a few unpaid days off here and there because my boss was nice. The people above me had vacation days, but employers are making crazy complicated rules between sick days, personal days, vacation days, and furlough days. Every once in a while everyone would get together to try to figure it out when they changed a rule

.

But to continue even further, in China and other countries you are often practically mandated to work overtime.

Tatyana · 24th May 2012, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Most of my friends have regular jobs, where they have bosses (ugh) , 5 or 6 weeks of vacation and 8 or 10 holidays. It's not for me though. If you are saying that the US average is 2 weeks of vacation and holidays combined, I'm skeptical but I will go back through the thread and look for links if you say they are there.

If sightseeing is a more acceptable term, ok, I don't particularly enjoy it, although I wouldn't be averse to, say, skiing in the Alps or scuba diving in the Mediterranean.

I do quite a bit of business travel, and I do enjoy it, but it's not international, I rarely get more than 1,000 miles from home.

ETA: I do realize that your word "holiday" is equivalent to our " vacation", I just don't know what word you use for our "holiday".

I also wonder if the size of the US puts people off of traveling as well.

I know you were questioning the annual leave. I am certain there are some people who have adequate annual leave, however, from what I can tell, it isn't a condition that someone starting at work would have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11139960

Would more holiday be good for America?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/...o_Holidays.pdf

A comparison of leave and holiday No‐vacation nation USA –in OECD countries

I do think that having a decent amount of annual leave goes a long way towards having a content work force, and therefore, a productive work force.

Quote:

We all have a limited amount of time to spend. I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that whatever activities you doing on vacation are superior because they are not "work".

I also find this statement a bit odd. This isn't and either-or situation.

This is more of a 'have both' situation.

When I did take a really long holiday (the ten weeks in Jan-March) the manager of the laboratory I worked in had to make sure I had additional time off when I booked this time (around September), to make sure I still had some other annual leave as it is quite standard policy to make sure people have enough 'emergency' time or something like that just for the well-being of the staff.

I think the issue with annual leave in the States is that it seems to be very similar to healthcare.

If you are well off and a higher wage earner with a good job, there isn't really much of an issue with health care or having annual leave.

If you are a lower wage earner or part-time employee, both of these things are not guaranteed.

It does really seem that while the US derides the whole concept of a class system, there really does appear to be an economic class system, and there is really not that much upward mobility if you are poor.

Marcus · 24th May 2012, 03:44 AM

Interesting articles. I find the whole concept of the government dictating to companies how much vacation and holidays they must give to their employees way too intrusive. There is just a different attitude here towards how much power governments are allowed to have.

It's quite true that entry level and lower wage workers don't get that much time off. They usually get sick days and holidays, but not much in the way of vacation.

As for me, there is no one who is going to pay me for any day I choose not to work, nor would I want them to (I'm self-employed). I know it doesn't work this way, but I have this amusing picture in my mind of some European bureaucrat demanding that I grant myself paid holidays.

UnrepentantSinner · 24th May 2012, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I also wonder if the size of the US puts people off of traveling as well.

Size is a factor, but not for lack of destinations. There's plenty of diverse and interesting tourist destinations within even limited sections of our borders. Within 30 miles of just the coasts of the contiguous states, there's at least 10 different subcultures, each with their own reasons for visiting (So Cal, Pacific Northwest, New England, DelMarVa, Lowcountry, South Florida, Florida Panhandle and Cajun Louisiana). All of them can be reached via highway and relatively inexpensive domestic flights. And then there's Alaska, Hawaii and Canada and Mexico.

Obviously there isn't the history or diversity of culture one finds in Europe as a whole or within individual countries, but the sheer size of the country can limit options for some travellers or would be travellers - for instance people that don't like to fly. Driving from Southern California to Maine and then down to New Orleans with 3 days in each would be 10 days to two weeks for your average American internal tourist.

When my father was stationed in Germany, we once visited Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Austria in about an hour.

Flo · 24th May 2012, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

When my father was stationed in Germany, we once visited Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Austria in about an hour.

What took you so long ? Got a puncture ?

Tatyana · 24th May 2012, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Interesting articles. I find the whole concept of the government dictating to companies how much vacation and holidays they must give to their employees way too intrusive. There is just a different attitude here towards how much power governments are allowed to have.

It's quite true that entry level and lower wage workers don't get that much time off. They usually get sick days and holidays, but not much in the way of vacation.

As for me, there is no one who is going to pay me for any day I choose not to work, nor would I want them to (I'm self-employed). I know it doesn't work this way, but I have this amusing picture in my mind of some European bureaucrat demanding that I grant myself paid holidays.

I don't think that self-employed have to take holidays, obviously, if it is their own business, then they would have to employ someone to manage things.

Not everyone is granted holidays in the EU, for example, if you work as a locum, you are paid at a higher rate but there are no paid holidays or sick days.

As well, if you work as 'bank' staff, which is someone filling in low skilled jobs in various departments, again, no paid annual leave or sick days.

Yes, I do think that it is a difference in attitude, and in general, a lot of Americans seem very anti-government.

How did it go from 'of the people for the people' to 'the government should stay out of my business' and the modern day 'robber barons' get to dictate how much people are paid and how much leave they get?

I might be completely wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all that the lobbyist for various large companies, for example the largest employer on the planet, Walmart, ensure that basic wages and holiday remains very basic.

It just seems so foreign to me to not want to have a life-work balance.

This is the other thing, if someone really wants to work all the time in the EU, a lot of companies also offer the option of being able to sell back all of your annual leave time.

Again, this provides more freedom, more choice than just not having the option of taking holidays.

I suppose it depend on whether or not you live to work or work to live.

UnrepentantSinner · 24th May 2012, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Flo

What took you so long ? Got a puncture ?

Marcus · 24th May 2012, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I don't think that self-employed have to take holidays, obviously, if it is their own business, then they would have to employ someone to manage things.

Not everyone is granted holidays in the EU, for example, if you work as a locum, you are paid at a higher rate but there are no paid holidays or sick days.

As well, if you work as 'bank' staff, which is someone filling in low skilled jobs in various departments, again, no paid annual leave or sick days.

Yes, I do think that it is a difference in attitude, and in general, a lot of Americans seem very anti-government.

How did it go from 'of the people for the people' to 'the government should stay out of my business' and the modern day 'robber barons' get to dictate how much people are paid and how much leave they get?

I might be completely wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all that the lobbyist for various large companies, for example the largest employer on the planet, Walmart, ensure that basic wages and holiday remains very basic.

It just seems so foreign to me to not want to have a life-work balance.

This is the other thing, if someone really wants to work all the time in the EU, a lot of companies also offer the option of being able to sell back all of your annual leave time.

Again, this provides more freedom, more choice than just not having the option of taking holidays.

I suppose it depend on whether or not you live to work or work to live.

America is about freedom from an overly intrusive government. While I'm sure that poverty must suck, I don't think that therefor Big Daddy should step in and demand that Wal Mart and McDonalds give their employees long vacations.

It really depends on what you like to do with your time. While I think that it's great that you enjoy the things that you do, this idea that if I don't enjoy spending my time in the same way I'm somehow out of balance or deprived is narrow minded.

It's different being self-employed, there isn't really a clear delineation between work and non-work. When I get up in the morning, I may walk right out into the studio, or I may put on a load of laundry or post something on JREF. It's all just life to me.

Toke · 24th May 2012, 06:34 AM

The Norwegian fjords are relly pretty this time of year, I left one 4 weeks ago with a oil-rig in tow.

As for a bit of European workrelated sunlight. Our captain told us that the company is so happy with the ship/crews performance that we get a bonus, both each and to the ships welfare club.

Toke · 24th May 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

America is about freedom from an overly intrusive government. While I'm sure that poverty must suck, I don't think that therefor Big Daddy should step in and demand that Wal Mart and McDonalds give their employees long vacations.
.....

You kind of miss the part where the people use the government as their tool to avoid explotation by feudal lords/robber barons/companies.
Have you noticed how your income disparity have risen over the last few decades?

Tatyana · 24th May 2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

America is about freedom from an overly intrusive government. While I'm sure that poverty must suck, I don't think that therefor Big Daddy should step in and demand that Wal Mart and McDonalds give their employees long vacations.

It really depends on what you like to do with your time. While I think that it's great that you enjoy the things that you do, this idea that if I don't enjoy spending my time in the same way I'm somehow out of balance or deprived is narrow minded.

It's different being self-employed, there isn't really a clear delineation between work and non-work. When I get up in the morning, I may walk right out into the studio, or I may put on a load of laundry or post something on JREF. It's all just life to me.

I think a good analogy is how people think that vaccines are an issue now that we have eliminated so many childhood illnesses with vaccines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

I think that there is an issue with the close association of corporate lobbyist and government, so in that sense, there is issue with government involvement.

I really don't think the US government would 'intrude' on the average worker to improve working conditions.

The USA is one of the only developed countries that does not have a requirement for annual leave, so worrying about government intrusion isn't an issue.

However, the evidence does suggest that working longer hours, without holidays, does not improve productivity, in fact, it may actually be detrimental.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/5190.html
Productivity Means Working Smarter, Not Longer

Productivity Primer
http://www.economist.com/node/3352969

Shorter working hours can foster greater productivity
http://www.microsoft.com/business/en...spx?cbcid=2202

The long hours with few holidays are also implicated in poor health.

I know some people are very accustomed to working long hours, however, as a society, we may have to examine the evidence with regard to working hours, annual leave and other benefits for workers.

I realise this may not directly relate to you, but being self-employed is not something that everyone is willing or able to do.

Marcus · 24th May 2012, 10:13 AM

The intrusion is on those upon whom the burden is placed. Lest you think this is merely about the mega-corporations, who we don't have to care about, other than to watch the costs be passed on to consumers, half of our workforce is in small business. Micro-businesses are particularly vulnerable. If government representatives can convince a particular business that they would be better off with fewer hours, that's fine with me, but we are talking about force, not persuasion.

I would argue that productivity is not about working as few hours as possible, it's about enjoying what you do and having a relaxed, stress free environment. I could easily see how if you had some horrendous, repetitious factory job you wouldn't want to do it more than 40 hours a week though.

I am also not persuaded by the "everyone else does it" argument. We have our own ways of doing things, it's a good thing.

Shalamar · 24th May 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Oh, do the Nile cruise! I did Luxor to Aswan and back just days before it all erupted in January last year, and it was absolutely fabulous. Not much of the old sitting around, and in fact we had to get up at 3.30 one morning to get to see Abu Simbel before the sun left the front of the temples, but it was sure worth it.

Cairo is hell on earth, but you have to see the Museum, the Pyramids and the Sphynx. A couple of nights there is enough (though one of my cousins lived there for two years and said she loved every minute, no accounting for some people). But the rest of it is out of this world. And the tour guides are all MScs in Egyptology. You learn a heap of stuff.

Don't miss the son et lumiere show at the temple of Philae in Aswan, if you get that far. Worth every penny. If you aren't going so far (but you really really should), I believe there is a good one at Karnak too. The one at the Pyramids is OK, but I much preferred the one at Philae which leads the audience through the temple complex.

I'm thinking of not going abroad this year, because as I said I might have the chance to go on a trail riding week in the north of Scotland. Since the weather here turned absolutely fabulous at the beginning of this week the idea appeals more and more.

As you say, it should be possible to get a really good deal at the moment, and the attractions will almost certainly be less crowded. A friend of mine went the week they re-opened after the Luxor massacre, and he pretty much had Karnak to himself he told me.

It's nice that Marcus is so happy at work, although we may think he's missing out on an awful lot, and it's possible to have great holidays as well. But lots of people don't enjoy the daily grind all that much. Why do the Americans deny their whole nation the pleasures of travel and adventure?

Rolfe.

Egypt was a blast. Spent two weeks there. Time in Cairo, A week long Nile Cruise, and at the end, we went off and spent a couple days at a resort to relax.

Tourism there is way WAY down, to the point where you can actually walk through the temples, and the sites. Warning though, the vendors are aggressive, desperate for money. But you can probably get some good deals at the shops.

We only saw the light show at the pyramids while we were having dinner. We were at an open air restaurant that overlooked the sphinx and the pyramids and we could still see the show, and hear the commentary.

Most of the tourists that were there were European. I'm unsure if there were any North Americans with the tour group we were in.

But yes, Most Americans tend to stay in the states. Of course, the country is pretty big, and there is lots to do and see, but I loved going to Egypt. Very much worth it.

Rolfe · 24th May 2012, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

The intrusion is on those upon whom the burden is placed. Lest you think this is merely about the mega-corporations, who we don't have to care about, other than to watch the costs be passed on to consumers, half of our workforce is in small business. Micro-businesses are particularly vulnerable. If government representatives can convince a particular business that they would be better off with fewer hours, that's fine with me, but we are talking about force, not persuasion.

I would argue that productivity is not about working as few hours as possible, it's about enjoying what you do and having a relaxed, stress free environment. I could easily see how if you had some horrendous, repetitious factory job you wouldn't want to do it more than 40 hours a week though.

I am also not persuaded by the "everyone else does it" argument. We have our own ways of doing things, it's a good thing.

I'm contracted to work 37 hours a week. I stayed a bit late this evening to finish off some reports because I have Friday and Monday off. This is in lieu of next Monday and Tuesday, which are public holidays due to the Queen's diamond jubilee. This does not interest me, so I'm happy to switch. Not that I don't find cutting up dead animals to find out what they died of interesting (I've seen some really new and inventive ways to die this spring!), but someone else can do the ones that die this weekend. I can't keep all the fun to myself.

The sun is shining, and I'm off to my recorder class. Und Morgen wird die Sonne wieder scheinen, and I'm going to drive to England to stay with an old friend from school, and we're going to cycle on canal towpaths and look at the spring flowers.

See you later!

Rolfe.

RandFan · 24th May 2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

The intrusion is on those upon whom the burden is placed. Lest you think this is merely about the mega-corporations, who we don't have to care about, other than to watch the costs be passed on to consumers, half of our workforce is in small business. Micro-businesses are particularly vulnerable. If government representatives can convince a particular business that they would be better off with fewer hours, that's fine with me, but we are talking about force, not persuasion.

I would argue that productivity is not about working as few hours as possible, it's about enjoying what you do and having a relaxed, stress free environment. I could easily see how if you had some horrendous, repetitious factory job you wouldn't want to do it more than 40 hours a week though.

I agree. In a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world. I have had jobs I loved and jobs I hated. I had one job I loved that turned into a nightmare when an sociopath became my manager. I had to take a lower paying and otherwise less enjoyable job to get away from him.

Quote:

I am also not persuaded by the "everyone else does it" argument. We have our own ways of doing things, it's a good thing.

It's a good thing for you. I'm sure the upper class in Mexico think they have a good thing also. The argument isn't simply "everyone else does it". The argument is that their cost/benefit ratios on average are better.

Rolfe · 24th May 2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Shalamar

Egypt was a blast. Spent two weeks there. Time in Cairo, A week long Nile Cruise, and at the end, we went off and spent a couple days at a resort to relax.

Tourism there is way WAY down, to the point where you can actually walk through the temples, and the sites. Warning though, the vendors are aggressive, desperate for money. But you can probably get some good deals at the shops.

We only saw the light show at the pyramids while we were having dinner. We were at an open air restaurant that overlooked the sphinx and the pyramids and we could still see the show, and hear the commentary.

Most of the tourists that were there were European. I'm unsure if there were any North Americans with the tour group we were in.

But yes, Most Americans tend to stay in the states. Of course, the country is pretty big, and there is lots to do and see, but I loved going to Egypt. Very much worth it.

That's approximately what we did, although we did the Nile cruise first. It was great to come from snowbound Scotland to sun and sand and relaxation!

I can imagine the vendors are pretty tough. I was really uncomfortable with it all even when the places were busy. But the tour guides will often help you get a fair deal if there's something you want.

We see American tourists here, but come to think of it they're nearly all retired. Or rich. Or both.

I don't think when I'm on my deathbed I'm going to regret not having spent more time at work.

Rolfe.

RandFan · 24th May 2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Interesting articles. I find the whole concept of the government dictating to companies how much vacation and holidays they must give to their employees way too intrusive. There is just a different attitude here towards how much power governments are allowed to have.

It's quite true that entry level and lower wage workers don't get that much time off. They usually get sick days and holidays, but not much in the way of vacation.

How much power should businesses be allowed to have? Companies can and do exploit employees. If governments can improve the lives of citizens and balance that with the needs of business then why not? This is the reason for pointing to other nations. Improving the lives of citizens is good for society. It's good for our future and the future of businesses.

Business isn't entirely disinterested in the well-being of their employees. Happy and healthy employees make for productive employees. But often they are short sighted or simply believe erroneously that increased benefits to employees are unjustified for the bottom line.

Marcus · 24th May 2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

How much power should businesses be allowed to have? Companies can and do exploit employees. If governments can improve the lives of citizens and balance that with the needs of business then why not? This is the reason for pointing to other nations. Improving the lives of citizens is good for society. It's good for our future and the future of businesses.

Business isn't entirely disinterested in the well-being of their employees. Happy and healthy employees make for productive employees. But often they are short sighted or simply believe erroneously that increased benefits to employees are unjustified for the bottom line.

Not all the power, I agree, the debate is about where to draw the lines.

zooterkin · 24th May 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I think the issue with annual leave in the States is that it seems to be very similar to healthcare.

If you are well off and a higher wage earner with a good job, there isn't really much of an issue with health care or having annual leave.

I think there's another aspect; in Europe, if you are ill, then you are entitled to sick leave (up to certain limits). My understanding (from working for an American company, though not in America) is that in the US, if you're sick then you use up some of your annual leave entitlement. (It may be slightly more complicated, as there may be more than one category of leave depending on the employer, but I think that's essentially the case.)

Marcus · 24th May 2012, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I'm contracted to work 37 hours a week. I stayed a bit late this evening to finish off some reports because I have Friday and Monday off. This is in lieu of next Monday and Tuesday, which are public holidays due to the Queen's diamond jubilee. This does not interest me, so I'm happy to switch. Not that I don't find cutting up dead animals to find out what they died of interesting (I've seen some really new and inventive ways to die this spring!), but someone else can do the ones that die this weekend. I can't keep all the fun to myself.

The sun is shining, and I'm off to my recorder class. Und Morgen wird die Sonne wieder scheinen, and I'm going to drive to England to stay with an old friend from school, and we're going to cycle on canal towpaths and look at the spring flowers.

See you later!

Rolfe.

Do have fun, you won't get any argument from me about cycling, I do enjoy that.

I'm on my way out of town now to have fun of a different sort, I suppose you'd have to call it work since I'll be making money.

I won't be posting again until Monday.

Georg · 24th May 2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I don't think when I'm on my deathbed I'm going to regret not having spent more time at work.
Rolfe.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Shalamar · 24th May 2012, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I think there's another aspect; in Europe, if you are ill, then you are entitled to sick leave (up to certain limits). My understanding (from working for an American company, though not in America) is that in the US, if you're sick then you use up some of your annual leave entitlement. (It may be slightly more complicated, as there may be more than one category of leave depending on the employer, but I think that's essentially the case.)

This does depend on the employer. My vacation/time off is pretty nice, for being in the US. I have 3 weeks of Vacation time, 12 holidays (Not all of which have to be taken on the holiday in question) and 5 'Unplanned absences'. The last is for sick time, child emergencies, needing to have the plumber out to the house, that sort of thing. I also don't have any carry over time. If I don't use my time off, I lose it. It's a way to encourage people to use their vacation time.

Some companies do indeed simply give their employees a single time off bank. Sick time, or vacation, it's all the same. So you have to save some of the vacation time in case you fall ill.

xjx388 · 24th May 2012, 10:55 PM

Americans take plenty of vacations. Last year, the wife and I took two cruises, had 6 trips to Vegas, went to New York and Napa/Sonoma. The ability to take more and better trips is a motivation to move up in the world. If everything is given to you, what do you have to work for?

And having the time off does not imply that most Europeans have the cash to truly enjoy cruises, Egypt, France, etc. I'd wager most people don't travel as much as they'd like, just like Americans.

KoihimeNakamura · 25th May 2012, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

Americans take plenty of vacations. Last year, the wife and I took two cruises, had 6 trips to Vegas, went to New York and Napa/Sonoma. The ability to take more and better trips is a motivation to move up in the world. If everything is given to you, what do you have to work for?

And having the time off does not imply that most Europeans have the cash to truly enjoy cruises, Egypt, France, etc. I'd wager most people don't travel as much as they'd like, just like Americans.

... Other things? Inherent drive? (Also: I wish I had anywhere near that kind of vacation time.)

23rd May 2012, 09:56 AM	#121
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,205	Originally Posted by xjx388 Most of us manage to do just fine, thank you. Some of us not so much, this is true. But you simply can't solve all of a society's ills. What about all the people who don't get adequate food, clothes or shelter? What about the problem of crime? What about improving education? There are limited resources. I think our collective resources are better spent on other things. That resources are finite doesn't tell us much. Americans already spend much more on health care than other countries and our costs are rising fastest. The notion that solving the health care problem will take from other programs doesn't seem to be a credible argument.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

23rd May 2012, 10:09 AM	#122
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Also, there are programmes to help people who can't afford adequate food, clothes and shelter. Tax relief for those on low income combined with social security benefits are designed to cover that. The problem is that nobody's basic need for food, clothes and shelter is inordinate. Nobody needs a 15-room mansion with a swimming pool, or to dine every night at Gleneagles, or to dress in cloth of gold. Basic provision can be managed, and nobody should be going cold or hungry. In contrast many people have a need for healthcare expenditure which is in the "inordinate" bracket. You can't just give them an aspirin and a sticking plaster and call it sorted. In a situation where only a small proportion of the total need a large amount spent on them, but we don't know who it will be, it makes perfect sense to pool the risk. That's what European countries do, and nobody argues about it. In the US even the insurance system is hell-bent on making the unfortunates who get high-ticket health problems pay for themselves, by excluding them from coverage. And of course they can't. I just can't fathom the mentality that says, hey I'm lucky I have nothing wrong with me, to hell with the poor sod who needs a liver transplant, I'm going to keep my money. Considering what a small cost it is to each person to cover everyone, and when that happens the person doing the complaining also has the security of knowing that his own future needs are covered, it seems to me to be a no-brainer. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd May 2012, 12:42 PM	#123
Tatyana Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Experiment 1: Flame and Flesh Posts: 3,431	Originally Posted by Marcus It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I don't often take vacations because I simply don't enjoy idleness. Yes. I know there are other things to do, and I will occasionally go skiing or sailing, but sitting around, even if it is on a beautiful beach or a cruise ship, is boring for me, my work is more fun. I feel lucky that I have work that is not toil that I need to get away from. What an odd idea of a vacation. My last holiday was visiting cultural and world heritage sites in Sri Lanka, Vietnam (we took the unification express from Hanoi to Saigon with quite a few stops on the way), Cambodia and the immensely impressive Angkor Wat temple complex (I really don't think I have seen anything on earth that has had me stand in awe as much as this place), the absolutely gorgeous country of Lao, and of course, Thailand. Bangkok is absolutely an amazing city. We did have about ten days in ten weeks that were on Thai beaches/islands, but it is really nice to break up the traveling with a bit of relaxation (and you can still experience the culture of the country if you choose the right island or beach). Despite the beach time, it was anything but idle. Our next trip is going to be Indonesia to do some volcano hiking and more ancient Hindu temple viewing, and if we can swing it in the autumn before Indonesia, a cruise down the Nile from Cairo to see many of the antiquities of Ancient Egypt. Tourism is down in Egypt right now, so we may find we get a great deal on a cruise. We might also see if we can do a couple of long weekend in either Barcelona or Berlin, and we will be doing more of the museum and art gallery thing in these cities. I really do wonder if this has something to do with the amount of holiday we have. If people only have two to three weeks of annual leave per year, they probably need a week for Christmas, a week of days here and there just for a break from work, and then, with only a week left, there really isn't that much time for traveling. PS. I like my job, it is interesting, it requires continual professional development, it is challenging, it pays well, and it isn't because 'my job is a toil' that I love to travel.
	Last edited by Tatyana; 23rd May 2012 at 12:46 PM.

23rd May 2012, 02:08 PM	#124
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Oh, do the Nile cruise! I did Luxor to Aswan and back just days before it all erupted in January last year, and it was absolutely fabulous. Not much of the old sitting around, and in fact we had to get up at 3.30 one morning to get to see Abu Simbel before the sun left the front of the temples, but it was sure worth it. Cairo is hell on earth, but you have to see the Museum, the Pyramids and the Sphynx. A couple of nights there is enough (though one of my cousins lived there for two years and said she loved every minute, no accounting for some people). But the rest of it is out of this world. And the tour guides are all MScs in Egyptology. You learn a heap of stuff. Don't miss the son et lumiere show at the temple of Philae in Aswan, if you get that far. Worth every penny. If you aren't going so far (but you really really should), I believe there is a good one at Karnak too. The one at the Pyramids is OK, but I much preferred the one at Philae which leads the audience through the temple complex. I'm thinking of not going abroad this year, because as I said I might have the chance to go on a trail riding week in the north of Scotland. Since the weather here turned absolutely fabulous at the beginning of this week the idea appeals more and more. As you say, it should be possible to get a really good deal at the moment, and the attractions will almost certainly be less crowded. A friend of mine went the week they re-opened after the Luxor massacre, and he pretty much had Karnak to himself he told me. It's nice that Marcus is so happy at work, although we may think he's missing out on an awful lot, and it's possible to have great holidays as well. But lots of people don't enjoy the daily grind all that much. Why do the Americans deny their whole nation the pleasures of travel and adventure? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd May 2012, 04:16 PM	#126
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Well, you seem to be saying that because you like your work and don't care for holidays, that means it's all just peachy to restrict Americans in general to two weeks a year, during which time they mostly can't get out of the country. (The USA is a big and varied place, but it ain't the world, just sayin'.) And I don't see in what way Tatyana and I are missing out on the pleasures you are getting. Both of us enjoy our work, and find it fascinating and challenging. We just think that we can get by with only spending about 46 weeks of the year on it, and it's nice to do other things as well. Which don't necessarily include sitting around. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd May 2012, 03:41 PM	#125
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	I suppose if I thought of my work as a daily grind, or as toil, as in the headlines from the post I was quoting, I would wish to avoid it. I understand that a lot of people like to travel for pleasure, I have absolutely nothing against that. I am missing out on the pleasure they derive from the way they spend their time, as they are missing out on the pleasure I derive from the way I spend mine. The bit about "Americans denying their whole nation the pleasures of travel and adventure" is so absurd it doesn't even seem worthy of a response.

23rd May 2012, 05:31 PM	#127
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Most of my friends have regular jobs, where they have bosses (ugh) , 5 or 6 weeks of vacation and 8 or 10 holidays. It's not for me though. If you are saying that the US average is 2 weeks of vacation and holidays combined, I'm skeptical but I will go back through the thread and look for links if you say they are there. If sightseeing is a more acceptable term, ok, I don't particularly enjoy it, although I wouldn't be averse to, say, skiing in the Alps or scuba diving in the Mediterranean. I do quite a bit of business travel, and I do enjoy it, but it's not international, I rarely get more than 1,000 miles from home. ETA: I do realize that your word "holiday" is equivalent to our " vacation", I just don't know what word you use for our "holiday".
	Last edited by Marcus; 23rd May 2012 at 05:38 PM.

23rd May 2012, 05:48 PM	#128
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Originally Posted by Rolfe And I don't see in what way Tatyana and I are missing out on the pleasures you are getting. We all have a limited amount of time to spend. I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that whatever activities you doing on vacation are superior because they are not "work".

23rd May 2012, 08:36 PM	#129
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,901	I have to say, the vacation thing is quite the culture shock for me. As a peon, I got a few unpaid days off here and there because my boss was nice. The people above me had vacation days, but employers are making crazy complicated rules between sick days, personal days, vacation days, and furlough days. Every once in a while everyone would get together to try to figure it out when they changed a rule . But to continue even further, in China and other countries you are often practically mandated to work overtime.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

24th May 2012, 02:41 AM	#130
Tatyana Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Experiment 1: Flame and Flesh Posts: 3,431	Originally Posted by Marcus Most of my friends have regular jobs, where they have bosses (ugh) , 5 or 6 weeks of vacation and 8 or 10 holidays. It's not for me though. If you are saying that the US average is 2 weeks of vacation and holidays combined, I'm skeptical but I will go back through the thread and look for links if you say they are there. If sightseeing is a more acceptable term, ok, I don't particularly enjoy it, although I wouldn't be averse to, say, skiing in the Alps or scuba diving in the Mediterranean. I do quite a bit of business travel, and I do enjoy it, but it's not international, I rarely get more than 1,000 miles from home. ETA: I do realize that your word "holiday" is equivalent to our " vacation", I just don't know what word you use for our "holiday". I also wonder if the size of the US puts people off of traveling as well. I know you were questioning the annual leave. I am certain there are some people who have adequate annual leave, however, from what I can tell, it isn't a condition that someone starting at work would have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11139960 Would more holiday be good for America? http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/...o_Holidays.pdf A comparison of leave and holiday No‐vacation nation USA –in OECD countries I do think that having a decent amount of annual leave goes a long way towards having a content work force, and therefore, a productive work force. Quote: We all have a limited amount of time to spend. I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that whatever activities you doing on vacation are superior because they are not "work". I also find this statement a bit odd. This isn't and either-or situation. This is more of a 'have both' situation. When I did take a really long holiday (the ten weeks in Jan-March) the manager of the laboratory I worked in had to make sure I had additional time off when I booked this time (around September), to make sure I still had some other annual leave as it is quite standard policy to make sure people have enough 'emergency' time or something like that just for the well-being of the staff. I think the issue with annual leave in the States is that it seems to be very similar to healthcare. If you are well off and a higher wage earner with a good job, there isn't really much of an issue with health care or having annual leave. If you are a lower wage earner or part-time employee, both of these things are not guaranteed. It does really seem that while the US derides the whole concept of a class system, there really does appear to be an economic class system, and there is really not that much upward mobility if you are poor.

24th May 2012, 03:44 AM	#131
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Interesting articles. I find the whole concept of the government dictating to companies how much vacation and holidays they must give to their employees way too intrusive. There is just a different attitude here towards how much power governments are allowed to have. It's quite true that entry level and lower wage workers don't get that much time off. They usually get sick days and holidays, but not much in the way of vacation. As for me, there is no one who is going to pay me for any day I choose not to work, nor would I want them to (I'm self-employed). I know it doesn't work this way, but I have this amusing picture in my mind of some European bureaucrat demanding that I grant myself paid holidays.

24th May 2012, 04:25 AM	#132
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,353	Originally Posted by Tatyana I also wonder if the size of the US puts people off of traveling as well. Size is a factor, but not for lack of destinations. There's plenty of diverse and interesting tourist destinations within even limited sections of our borders. Within 30 miles of just the coasts of the contiguous states, there's at least 10 different subcultures, each with their own reasons for visiting (So Cal, Pacific Northwest, New England, DelMarVa, Lowcountry, South Florida, Florida Panhandle and Cajun Louisiana). All of them can be reached via highway and relatively inexpensive domestic flights. And then there's Alaska, Hawaii and Canada and Mexico. Obviously there isn't the history or diversity of culture one finds in Europe as a whole or within individual countries, but the sheer size of the country can limit options for some travellers or would be travellers - for instance people that don't like to fly. Driving from Southern California to Maine and then down to New Orleans with 3 days in each would be 10 days to two weeks for your average American internal tourist. When my father was stationed in Germany, we once visited Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Austria in about an hour.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

24th May 2012, 04:32 AM	#133
Flo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Massongy, France Posts: 2,793	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner When my father was stationed in Germany, we once visited Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Austria in about an hour. What took you so long ? Got a puncture ?
	__________________ "Let me explain the order of things for you. There's the aristocracy, the upper class, middle class, working class, dumb animals, waiters, creeping things, head lice, people who eat packet soup, and then you." (Chef)

24th May 2012, 04:39 AM	#134
Tatyana Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Experiment 1: Flame and Flesh Posts: 3,431	Originally Posted by Marcus Interesting articles. I find the whole concept of the government dictating to companies how much vacation and holidays they must give to their employees way too intrusive. There is just a different attitude here towards how much power governments are allowed to have. It's quite true that entry level and lower wage workers don't get that much time off. They usually get sick days and holidays, but not much in the way of vacation. As for me, there is no one who is going to pay me for any day I choose not to work, nor would I want them to (I'm self-employed). I know it doesn't work this way, but I have this amusing picture in my mind of some European bureaucrat demanding that I grant myself paid holidays. I don't think that self-employed have to take holidays, obviously, if it is their own business, then they would have to employ someone to manage things. Not everyone is granted holidays in the EU, for example, if you work as a locum, you are paid at a higher rate but there are no paid holidays or sick days. As well, if you work as 'bank' staff, which is someone filling in low skilled jobs in various departments, again, no paid annual leave or sick days. Yes, I do think that it is a difference in attitude, and in general, a lot of Americans seem very anti-government. How did it go from 'of the people for the people' to 'the government should stay out of my business' and the modern day 'robber barons' get to dictate how much people are paid and how much leave they get? I might be completely wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all that the lobbyist for various large companies, for example the largest employer on the planet, Walmart, ensure that basic wages and holiday remains very basic. It just seems so foreign to me to not want to have a life-work balance. This is the other thing, if someone really wants to work all the time in the EU, a lot of companies also offer the option of being able to sell back all of your annual leave time. Again, this provides more freedom, more choice than just not having the option of taking holidays. I suppose it depend on whether or not you live to work or work to live.
	Last edited by Tatyana; 24th May 2012 at 04:41 AM.

24th May 2012, 04:57 AM	#135
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,353	Originally Posted by Flo What took you so long ? Got a puncture ?
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

24th May 2012, 06:21 AM	#136
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Originally Posted by Tatyana I don't think that self-employed have to take holidays, obviously, if it is their own business, then they would have to employ someone to manage things. Not everyone is granted holidays in the EU, for example, if you work as a locum, you are paid at a higher rate but there are no paid holidays or sick days. As well, if you work as 'bank' staff, which is someone filling in low skilled jobs in various departments, again, no paid annual leave or sick days. Yes, I do think that it is a difference in attitude, and in general, a lot of Americans seem very anti-government. How did it go from 'of the people for the people' to 'the government should stay out of my business' and the modern day 'robber barons' get to dictate how much people are paid and how much leave they get? I might be completely wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all that the lobbyist for various large companies, for example the largest employer on the planet, Walmart, ensure that basic wages and holiday remains very basic. It just seems so foreign to me to not want to have a life-work balance. This is the other thing, if someone really wants to work all the time in the EU, a lot of companies also offer the option of being able to sell back all of your annual leave time. Again, this provides more freedom, more choice than just not having the option of taking holidays. I suppose it depend on whether or not you live to work or work to live. America is about freedom from an overly intrusive government. While I'm sure that poverty must suck, I don't think that therefor Big Daddy should step in and demand that Wal Mart and McDonalds give their employees long vacations. It really depends on what you like to do with your time. While I think that it's great that you enjoy the things that you do, this idea that if I don't enjoy spending my time in the same way I'm somehow out of balance or deprived is narrow minded. It's different being self-employed, there isn't really a clear delineation between work and non-work. When I get up in the morning, I may walk right out into the studio, or I may put on a load of laundry or post something on JREF. It's all just life to me.

24th May 2012, 06:34 AM	#137
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	The Norwegian fjords are relly pretty this time of year, I left one 4 weeks ago with a oil-rig in tow. As for a bit of European workrelated sunlight. Our captain told us that the company is so happy with the ship/crews performance that we get a bonus, both each and to the ships welfare club.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

24th May 2012, 06:43 AM	#138
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	Originally Posted by Marcus America is about freedom from an overly intrusive government. While I'm sure that poverty must suck, I don't think that therefor Big Daddy should step in and demand that Wal Mart and McDonalds give their employees long vacations. ..... You kind of miss the part where the people use the government as their tool to avoid explotation by feudal lords/robber barons/companies. Have you noticed how your income disparity have risen over the last few decades?
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

24th May 2012, 07:33 AM	#139
Tatyana Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Experiment 1: Flame and Flesh Posts: 3,431	Originally Posted by Marcus America is about freedom from an overly intrusive government. While I'm sure that poverty must suck, I don't think that therefor Big Daddy should step in and demand that Wal Mart and McDonalds give their employees long vacations. It really depends on what you like to do with your time. While I think that it's great that you enjoy the things that you do, this idea that if I don't enjoy spending my time in the same way I'm somehow out of balance or deprived is narrow minded. It's different being self-employed, there isn't really a clear delineation between work and non-work. When I get up in the morning, I may walk right out into the studio, or I may put on a load of laundry or post something on JREF. It's all just life to me. I think a good analogy is how people think that vaccines are an issue now that we have eliminated so many childhood illnesses with vaccines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day I think that there is an issue with the close association of corporate lobbyist and government, so in that sense, there is issue with government involvement. I really don't think the US government would 'intrude' on the average worker to improve working conditions. The USA is one of the only developed countries that does not have a requirement for annual leave, so worrying about government intrusion isn't an issue. However, the evidence does suggest that working longer hours, without holidays, does not improve productivity, in fact, it may actually be detrimental. http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/5190.html Productivity Means Working Smarter, Not Longer Productivity Primer http://www.economist.com/node/3352969 Shorter working hours can foster greater productivity http://www.microsoft.com/business/en...spx?cbcid=2202 The long hours with few holidays are also implicated in poor health. I know some people are very accustomed to working long hours, however, as a society, we may have to examine the evidence with regard to working hours, annual leave and other benefits for workers. I realise this may not directly relate to you, but being self-employed is not something that everyone is willing or able to do.

24th May 2012, 10:13 AM	#140
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	The intrusion is on those upon whom the burden is placed. Lest you think this is merely about the mega-corporations, who we don't have to care about, other than to watch the costs be passed on to consumers, half of our workforce is in small business. Micro-businesses are particularly vulnerable. If government representatives can convince a particular business that they would be better off with fewer hours, that's fine with me, but we are talking about force, not persuasion. I would argue that productivity is not about working as few hours as possible, it's about enjoying what you do and having a relaxed, stress free environment. I could easily see how if you had some horrendous, repetitious factory job you wouldn't want to do it more than 40 hours a week though. I am also not persuaded by the "everyone else does it" argument. We have our own ways of doing things, it's a good thing.

24th May 2012, 10:21 AM	#141
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by Rolfe Oh, do the Nile cruise! I did Luxor to Aswan and back just days before it all erupted in January last year, and it was absolutely fabulous. Not much of the old sitting around, and in fact we had to get up at 3.30 one morning to get to see Abu Simbel before the sun left the front of the temples, but it was sure worth it. Cairo is hell on earth, but you have to see the Museum, the Pyramids and the Sphynx. A couple of nights there is enough (though one of my cousins lived there for two years and said she loved every minute, no accounting for some people). But the rest of it is out of this world. And the tour guides are all MScs in Egyptology. You learn a heap of stuff. Don't miss the son et lumiere show at the temple of Philae in Aswan, if you get that far. Worth every penny. If you aren't going so far (but you really really should), I believe there is a good one at Karnak too. The one at the Pyramids is OK, but I much preferred the one at Philae which leads the audience through the temple complex. I'm thinking of not going abroad this year, because as I said I might have the chance to go on a trail riding week in the north of Scotland. Since the weather here turned absolutely fabulous at the beginning of this week the idea appeals more and more. As you say, it should be possible to get a really good deal at the moment, and the attractions will almost certainly be less crowded. A friend of mine went the week they re-opened after the Luxor massacre, and he pretty much had Karnak to himself he told me. It's nice that Marcus is so happy at work, although we may think he's missing out on an awful lot, and it's possible to have great holidays as well. But lots of people don't enjoy the daily grind all that much. Why do the Americans deny their whole nation the pleasures of travel and adventure? Rolfe. Egypt was a blast. Spent two weeks there. Time in Cairo, A week long Nile Cruise, and at the end, we went off and spent a couple days at a resort to relax. Tourism there is way WAY down, to the point where you can actually walk through the temples, and the sites. Warning though, the vendors are aggressive, desperate for money. But you can probably get some good deals at the shops. We only saw the light show at the pyramids while we were having dinner. We were at an open air restaurant that overlooked the sphinx and the pyramids and we could still see the show, and hear the commentary. Most of the tourists that were there were European. I'm unsure if there were any North Americans with the tour group we were in. But yes, Most Americans tend to stay in the states. Of course, the country is pretty big, and there is lots to do and see, but I loved going to Egypt. Very much worth it.
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

24th May 2012, 10:23 AM	#142
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Originally Posted by Marcus The intrusion is on those upon whom the burden is placed. Lest you think this is merely about the mega-corporations, who we don't have to care about, other than to watch the costs be passed on to consumers, half of our workforce is in small business. Micro-businesses are particularly vulnerable. If government representatives can convince a particular business that they would be better off with fewer hours, that's fine with me, but we are talking about force, not persuasion. I would argue that productivity is not about working as few hours as possible, it's about enjoying what you do and having a relaxed, stress free environment. I could easily see how if you had some horrendous, repetitious factory job you wouldn't want to do it more than 40 hours a week though. I am also not persuaded by the "everyone else does it" argument. We have our own ways of doing things, it's a good thing. I'm contracted to work 37 hours a week. I stayed a bit late this evening to finish off some reports because I have Friday and Monday off. This is in lieu of next Monday and Tuesday, which are public holidays due to the Queen's diamond jubilee. This does not interest me, so I'm happy to switch. Not that I don't find cutting up dead animals to find out what they died of interesting (I've seen some really new and inventive ways to die this spring!), but someone else can do the ones that die this weekend. I can't keep all the fun to myself. The sun is shining, and I'm off to my recorder class. Und Morgen wird die Sonne wieder scheinen, and I'm going to drive to England to stay with an old friend from school, and we're going to cycle on canal towpaths and look at the spring flowers. See you later! Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 24th May 2012 at 10:26 AM.

24th May 2012, 10:26 AM	#143
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,205	Originally Posted by Marcus The intrusion is on those upon whom the burden is placed. Lest you think this is merely about the mega-corporations, who we don't have to care about, other than to watch the costs be passed on to consumers, half of our workforce is in small business. Micro-businesses are particularly vulnerable. If government representatives can convince a particular business that they would be better off with fewer hours, that's fine with me, but we are talking about force, not persuasion. I would argue that productivity is not about working as few hours as possible, it's about enjoying what you do and having a relaxed, stress free environment. I could easily see how if you had some horrendous, repetitious factory job you wouldn't want to do it more than 40 hours a week though. I agree. In a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world. I have had jobs I loved and jobs I hated. I had one job I loved that turned into a nightmare when an sociopath became my manager. I had to take a lower paying and otherwise less enjoyable job to get away from him. Quote: I am also not persuaded by the "everyone else does it" argument. We have our own ways of doing things, it's a good thing. It's a good thing for you. I'm sure the upper class in Mexico think they have a good thing also. The argument isn't simply "everyone else does it". The argument is that their cost/benefit ratios on average are better.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

24th May 2012, 10:30 AM	#144
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Originally Posted by Shalamar Egypt was a blast. Spent two weeks there. Time in Cairo, A week long Nile Cruise, and at the end, we went off and spent a couple days at a resort to relax. Tourism there is way WAY down, to the point where you can actually walk through the temples, and the sites. Warning though, the vendors are aggressive, desperate for money. But you can probably get some good deals at the shops. We only saw the light show at the pyramids while we were having dinner. We were at an open air restaurant that overlooked the sphinx and the pyramids and we could still see the show, and hear the commentary. Most of the tourists that were there were European. I'm unsure if there were any North Americans with the tour group we were in. But yes, Most Americans tend to stay in the states. Of course, the country is pretty big, and there is lots to do and see, but I loved going to Egypt. Very much worth it. That's approximately what we did, although we did the Nile cruise first. It was great to come from snowbound Scotland to sun and sand and relaxation! I can imagine the vendors are pretty tough. I was really uncomfortable with it all even when the places were busy. But the tour guides will often help you get a fair deal if there's something you want. We see American tourists here, but come to think of it they're nearly all retired. Or rich. Or both. I don't think when I'm on my deathbed I'm going to regret not having spent more time at work. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

24th May 2012, 10:37 AM	#145
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,205	Originally Posted by Marcus Interesting articles. I find the whole concept of the government dictating to companies how much vacation and holidays they must give to their employees way too intrusive. There is just a different attitude here towards how much power governments are allowed to have. It's quite true that entry level and lower wage workers don't get that much time off. They usually get sick days and holidays, but not much in the way of vacation. How much power should businesses be allowed to have? Companies can and do exploit employees. If governments can improve the lives of citizens and balance that with the needs of business then why not? This is the reason for pointing to other nations. Improving the lives of citizens is good for society. It's good for our future and the future of businesses. Business isn't entirely disinterested in the well-being of their employees. Happy and healthy employees make for productive employees. But often they are short sighted or simply believe erroneously that increased benefits to employees are unjustified for the bottom line.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

24th May 2012, 10:45 AM	#146
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Originally Posted by RandFan How much power should businesses be allowed to have? Companies can and do exploit employees. If governments can improve the lives of citizens and balance that with the needs of business then why not? This is the reason for pointing to other nations. Improving the lives of citizens is good for society. It's good for our future and the future of businesses. Business isn't entirely disinterested in the well-being of their employees. Happy and healthy employees make for productive employees. But often they are short sighted or simply believe erroneously that increased benefits to employees are unjustified for the bottom line. Not all the power, I agree, the debate is about where to draw the lines.

24th May 2012, 10:46 AM	#147
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,581	Originally Posted by Tatyana I think the issue with annual leave in the States is that it seems to be very similar to healthcare. If you are well off and a higher wage earner with a good job, there isn't really much of an issue with health care or having annual leave. I think there's another aspect; in Europe, if you are ill, then you are entitled to sick leave (up to certain limits). My understanding (from working for an American company, though not in America) is that in the US, if you're sick then you use up some of your annual leave entitlement. (It may be slightly more complicated, as there may be more than one category of leave depending on the employer, but I think that's essentially the case.)
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24th May 2012, 11:06 AM	#148
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Originally Posted by Rolfe I'm contracted to work 37 hours a week. I stayed a bit late this evening to finish off some reports because I have Friday and Monday off. This is in lieu of next Monday and Tuesday, which are public holidays due to the Queen's diamond jubilee. This does not interest me, so I'm happy to switch. Not that I don't find cutting up dead animals to find out what they died of interesting (I've seen some really new and inventive ways to die this spring!), but someone else can do the ones that die this weekend. I can't keep all the fun to myself. The sun is shining, and I'm off to my recorder class. Und Morgen wird die Sonne wieder scheinen, and I'm going to drive to England to stay with an old friend from school, and we're going to cycle on canal towpaths and look at the spring flowers. See you later! Rolfe. Do have fun, you won't get any argument from me about cycling, I do enjoy that. I'm on my way out of town now to have fun of a different sort, I suppose you'd have to call it work since I'll be making money. I won't be posting again until Monday.

24th May 2012, 12:23 PM	#149
Georg Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bavaria, Germany Posts: 1,333	Originally Posted by Rolfe I don't think when I'm on my deathbed I'm going to regret not having spent more time at work. Rolfe. I wholeheartedly agree.
	__________________ I wonder if there's any quadruple amputee dwarfs on death row? quarky I am 38 years old. I think I can handle a horny priest! -Fran- I think it's possible it will turn out that the whole point of human evolution is only as an intermediate step in the creation of robot hookers. -Piscivore-

24th May 2012, 04:50 PM	#150
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by zooterkin I think there's another aspect; in Europe, if you are ill, then you are entitled to sick leave (up to certain limits). My understanding (from working for an American company, though not in America) is that in the US, if you're sick then you use up some of your annual leave entitlement. (It may be slightly more complicated, as there may be more than one category of leave depending on the employer, but I think that's essentially the case.) This does depend on the employer. My vacation/time off is pretty nice, for being in the US. I have 3 weeks of Vacation time, 12 holidays (Not all of which have to be taken on the holiday in question) and 5 'Unplanned absences'. The last is for sick time, child emergencies, needing to have the plumber out to the house, that sort of thing. I also don't have any carry over time. If I don't use my time off, I lose it. It's a way to encourage people to use their vacation time. Some companies do indeed simply give their employees a single time off bank. Sick time, or vacation, it's all the same. So you have to save some of the vacation time in case you fall ill.
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24th May 2012, 10:55 PM	#151
xjx388 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,692	Americans take plenty of vacations. Last year, the wife and I took two cruises, had 6 trips to Vegas, went to New York and Napa/Sonoma. The ability to take more and better trips is a motivation to move up in the world. If everything is given to you, what do you have to work for? And having the time off does not imply that most Europeans have the cash to truly enjoy cruises, Egypt, France, etc. I'd wager most people don't travel as much as they'd like, just like Americans.
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25th May 2012, 01:36 AM	#152
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,853	Originally Posted by xjx388 Americans take plenty of vacations. Last year, the wife and I took two cruises, had 6 trips to Vegas, went to New York and Napa/Sonoma. The ability to take more and better trips is a motivation to move up in the world. If everything is given to you, what do you have to work for? And having the time off does not imply that most Europeans have the cash to truly enjoy cruises, Egypt, France, etc. I'd wager most people don't travel as much as they'd like, just like Americans. ... Other things? Inherent drive? (Also: I wish I had anywhere near that kind of vacation time.)
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