We could learn something from the Germans

Puppycow · 16th May 2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

NUREMBURG, Germany — Underlying Germany’s vaunted manufacturing machine is a system of close collaboration among business, labor and government that has served the nation well in recent years and stands in marked contrast to the increasingly adversarial system in the U.S.

Most factories in Germany are unionized, businesses have labor representatives on their boards, and union demands typically are not sources of tension or hostility with management. On a recent tour of factories here, chief executives professed to value their workers for their institutionalized knowledge and skills.

U.S. companies slashed more than 6 million jobs in a matter of months during the Great Recession in the biggest job bloodletting in a half-century. In Germany, businessmen interviewed here said, they went to great lengths to retain their workers during the steep downturn of 2009.

That led to a remarkable development: German unemployment actually declined during the recession.

“We treat our people well. Then we can demand more,” said Count Anton-Wolfgang von Faber-Castell

Now I've got name envy too.

Quote:

Far from pink-slipping the company’s oldest and most experienced workers during a downturn as many U.S. companies did, Mr. Faber-Castell said, he cultivated them.

Valuing older workers

“I worry that we didn’t keep people long enough,” he said, harking back to the recent early retirement of a key employee in Brazil, which seemed to set back the company’s largest pencil factory there.

“We respect our people. We do not kick old, experienced people out. How do you keep the know-how?” he asked.

Treating workers well has paid dividends for the company, the count said, particularly in the past couple of decades when unions agreed to restrain the growth of wages so Germany could catch up with the global competition and improve productivity. That resulted in a stronger economy for business and workers alike, he said.

And it's not just labor and management getting along, the politicians seem to be better too:

Quote:

“German economic policymaking is more pragmatic than partisan,” he said. German leaders embrace, for example, a combination of spending cuts along with tax hikes to reduce deficits, all the while investing in infrastructure to stimulate jobs and growth — a mixed approach that seems to be anathema in America’s polarized political system.

“U.S. leaders just might learn something from [Germany] about how to run a 21st-century industrial economy in a democracy,” Mr. Gelb said.

Tsukasa Buddha · 16th May 2012, 11:20 PM

Hm, I wash I could find the study, but the conclusion was that keeping out of labour disputes on the government's side leads to cooperation and increased satisfaction for everyone. For instance, in plenty of places there is no government mandated minimum wage. The unions settle that. Here in the US we have heavy government intervention and arbitration and the unions are decaying with heavy distrust. I would see what it said about Germany, but I can't find it again

.

But I know the AFCSME here in Illinois has made similar deals to try to stop layoffs.

Quote:

“German economic policymaking is more pragmatic than partisan,” he said. German leaders embrace, for example, a combination of spending cuts along with tax hikes to reduce deficits, all the while investing in infrastructure to stimulate jobs and growth — a mixed approach that seems to be anathema in America’s polarized political system.

This I think is related to electoral and parliamentary systems, but that is just my bias

The Don · 17th May 2012, 12:04 AM

I do a lot of business in Germany and it seems to me that there is a completely different business ethos over there than there is here in the UK or in the US. I get the feeling that for UK/US SMEs, the objective is to grow as quickly as possible and then get out, sell and move on to the next thing. It's a very entrepreneurial approach but it's also quite unstable.

German business seems more about gradual growth, stewardship and stability. The Mittelstand (SMEs) are largely family owned and the emphasis is passing the business onto the next generation. Workers are therefore viewed as valued team members rather than disposable work units.

Overall IMO this means that the German economy won't suddenly grow quickly but then again they can weather economic storms better.

All of the above IMO

Mycroft · 17th May 2012, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Now I've got name envy too.

That is undeniably an awesome name.

Originally Posted by Puppycow

And it's not just labor and management getting along, the politicians seem to be better too:

So...this all sounds very positive, but how to change American culture to look more like this? It seems like in the USA the relationship between labor and management is designed to be adversarial, and we reward the greedy capitalists who pocket million dollar paychecks for bankrupting a viable company, slashing its pension funds, and putting thousands out of work. (Mitt Romney).

MaGZ · 18th May 2012, 02:34 AM

It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good.

Tsukasa Buddha · 18th May 2012, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good.

Yes, when trade unionists were persecuted and people deemed "work shy" were sent to prison. This is clearly the policy at play here

.

Peephole · 18th May 2012, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

And it's not just labor and management getting along, the politicians seem to be better too:

No. If German politicians were any good, the Eurozone wouldn't be collapsing right now.

Chaos · 18th May 2012, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good.

Edited by jhunter1163:

Edited for Rules 0 and 12.

Humes fork · 18th May 2012, 08:58 AM

We've had similar policies in the Nordic countries as well. Trade unions and representatives for employers negotiate. Actually both sides benefit. Employees get good terms, businesses get stability and predictability. As a result the whole country benefits.

Madalch · 18th May 2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Underlying Germany’s vaunted manufacturing machine is a system of close collaboration among business...

Germans and collaborators always did go hand in hand....

Mycroft · 18th May 2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good.

The principle you're referring to isn't so much "everybody works together for the common good" so much as it's "let's round up those we think are gonna be dissenters and put them in a camp, then everybody else work together for the common good...until it's time to round up more people."

Corsair 115 · 18th May 2012, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Humes fork

We've had similar policies in the Nordic countries as well. Trade unions and representatives for employers negotiate. Actually both sides benefit.

There are examples in the U.S. of such an approach. One such case would be Major League Baseball. For many years it was rife with disputes between the players and owners, with numerous work stoppages due to either strike or lockouts, one of which terminated a season. Both sides figured out that was a counterproductive route. Since then there has been labour peace. Both sides came to realize they need the other in order to make money. They've become partners, and MLB has seen tremendous financial success in the wake of the co-operation.

ddt · 18th May 2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

The principle you're referring to isn't so much "everybody works together for the common good" so much as it's "let's round up those we think are gonna be dissenters and put them in a camp, then everybody else work together for the common good...until it's time to round up more people."

No, actually the realization that you could work those Jews, Soviet POWs, political opponents etc. to (near) death before you actually offed them came pretty late, around 1943, when a large part of the eventual victims had already been murdered outright.

I think MaGZ is referring to things like the Arbeitsfront, which was not more than a mock-union designed to give the impression the Nazis did something for the common man, but in reality pandered to the interests of the big corporations and the state.

ETA: forget the "No" at the start, I misread your post.

casebro · 23rd May 2012, 06:01 PM

If the German system is so good compared to the other nations of the world, wouldn't they export lots of stuff? Or be higher on the "Big Mac Standard"? Or some other subjective way to judge the 'betterness' of their system? Ok, labor is happy, management is happy, but does that mean 'better'? How to measure?

Corsair 115 · 23rd May 2012, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

If the German system is so good compared to the other nations of the world, wouldn't they export lots of stuff?

Well, for what it's worth, in 2011 Germany exported $98.4 billion worth of goods to the United States. (The U.S. exported $49.1 billion worth of goods to Germany that same year.)

Tsukasa Buddha · 23rd May 2012, 08:21 PM

I've actually just came across some info on this in my readings but happenstance. This practice is called concertation in literature. It can be social corporatism, which favours labour, or liberal corporatism, which favours business.

This is correlated with consensual governance, compared to pluralist interests which correlates with majoritarian governance.

Craig B · 23rd May 2012, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good.

The same principles which animated the destruction of trade unions in 1933, and later the horrors of the slave labour camps. Anyway it turns out that the "greater good" was creating a huge military machine and using it in an attempt to conquer and plunder Europe.

Fortunately the present German government doesn't seem inclined to go back to these economic principles.

Childlike Empress · 24th May 2012, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

If the German system is so good compared to the other nations of the world, wouldn't they export lots of stuff?

Actually, from 2003-2008 Germany was the largest export nation in the world. In total. Before that it was on place two behind the US for many years, and since 2009 China takes the lead, followed by the US and Germany about on par.

WildCat · 24th May 2012, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

Well, for what it's worth, in 2011 Germany exported $98.4 billion worth of goods to the United States. (The U.S. exported $49.1 billion worth of goods to Germany that same year.)

Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

Childlike Empress · 24th May 2012, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

stokes234 · 24th May 2012, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

That doesn't sound right. If germany are exporting about twice as much as they are importing from america despite having a quarter of the population, then germans are about 8 times better per person at making things americans want than americans are at making things germans want.

Corsair 115 · 24th May 2012, 11:33 AM

I posted the German export figures to the U.S. because I knew where to easily find the foreign trade data for the U.S.

According to Wikipedia (which in turn cites the Federal Statistics Office of Germany), in 2011 Germany exported €1.288 trillion, of which 6.8% went to the U.S.

Childlike Empress · 24th May 2012, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

I posted the German export figures to the U.S. because I knew where to easily find the foreign trade data for the U.S.

According to Wikipedia (which in turn cites the Federal Statistics Office of Germany), in 2011 Germany exported €1.288 trillion, of which 6.8% went to the U.S.

See my link, WTO numbers. I didn't find an equivalent on the English language wikipedia but it should be clear what that table shows (top three exporters over the years) and what countries like "Kanada" are. "BR Deutschland" means West-Germany up until the Reunification. 2011 numbers I think are still estimates.

Childlike Empress · 24th May 2012, 12:33 PM

Meant to post this already, but didn't for reasons mentioned in this article I think might be interesting to some reading this thread: "Germany is the most grown-up country in the world today"

funk de fino · 24th May 2012, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

Oh my good god.............

MaGZ · 24th May 2012, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

The same principles which animated the destruction of trade unions in 1933, and later the horrors of the slave labour camps. Anyway it turns out that the "greater good" was creating a huge military machine and using it in an attempt to conquer and plunder Europe.

Fortunately the present German government doesn't seem inclined to go back to these economic principles.

“Slave labour camps”
Do you mean how prisoners have to work in prison factories to make things like they do in the US?

Chaos · 25th May 2012, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

Since the US population is 3.8 Germany´s population, shouldn´t you expect the US´s exports to Germany to be closer to $375 billion than $50 billion?

Craig B · 25th May 2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

“Slave labour camps”
Do you mean how prisoners have to work in prison factories to make things like they do in the US?

Not unless new arrivals unable to work are promptly murdered, while the others are worked to death in a few months.

If I was a US citizen, even given the deplorable character of the US penal system, I would take the very strongest exception to your absurd post. Can you possibly be writing seriously, or are you simply setting down the first things that happen to enter your head?

WildCat · 25th May 2012, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Don't facepalm me, I didn't come up with that metric.

WildCat · 25th May 2012, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

Since the US population is 3.8 Germany´s population, shouldn´t you expect the US´s exports to Germany to be closer to $375 billion than $50 billion?

Quite the opposite. Much smaller market, thus less potential.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

What? The relative size of Germany vs the US has zero implication for what the bilateral merchandise trade balance should be.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by stokes234

If germany are exporting about twice as much as they are importing from america despite having a quarter of the population, then germans are about 8 times better per person at making things americans want than americans are at making things germans want.

That's an incorrect inference as well. The relative size of the countries is irrelevant.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

Since the US population is 3.8 Germany´s population, shouldn´t you expect the US´s exports to Germany to be closer to $375 billion than $50 billion?

And again, irrelevant.

I can run a one-woman business and have a German client who pays me £25,000 per year in fees. As long as I don't buy stuff from German suppliers / supply chains worth that amount, then I've got a "net export surplus" with Germany, yet there's only one me and 81,700,000 of them. Does that mean I'm 80 million times better at making stuff the Germans want than they are at making things I want? Doesn't mean very much.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 01:50 AM

60% of Germany's exports are bought by the rest of the EU. There is general agreement that this reflects the uncompetitiveness of the other Euro-zone members which has grown larger over time as they have experienced higher factor cost increases (mostly labour) with no FX rate flexibility. Without the euro, Germany's currency would have appreciated to compensate for this.

Therefore to a large extent, Germany is deriving benefit via its trade balance from the same causes that are stressing out most of southern Europe. (It is also of course deriviing further benefit via a much lower cost of capital than it would otherwise have as investors avoid other EMU markets).

This is why many in the zone (except Germans of course) believe that Germany has a moral obligation to contribute more to solve the EMU crisis.

Chaos · 26th May 2012, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

And again, irrelevant.

I wasn´t being serious, I was just turning Wildcat´s BS around against him.

psionl0 · 26th May 2012, 04:21 AM

The main thing to learn from Germany is that countries that produce real goods and services tend to have more stable economies than those countries where everybody wants to play "banker".

WildCat · 26th May 2012, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

What? The relative size of Germany vs the US has zero implication for what the bilateral merchandise trade balance should be.

Really? How about Liechtenstein? Does size matter then?

It's a stupid metric, trade imbalance between any 2 natons is not a reflection of any particular labor policy you pick. If it was related to labor policy (as Corsair implied) then everyone should follow China's model.

Francesca R · 26th May 2012, 07:04 AM

It (the trade balance) is a measure of the relative competitiveness of goods and services. Competitiveness does not just reflect labour policy, but that is an influence.

WildCat · 26th May 2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

It (the trade balance) is a measure of the relative competitiveness of goods and services. Competitiveness does not just reflect labour policy, but that is an influence.

Exactly, it's just one ingredient in a complex stew.

Japanese companies have a similar labor-management model, yet Japan has been stuck in a 20+ year quagmire.

Corsair 115 · 26th May 2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

If it was related to labor policy (as Corsair implied) then everyone should follow China's model.

I never made any such implication. My offering of the German export figures was in response to casebro's comment in post #14 that if the German's system was so good then it ought to export a lot of stuff. The intent was to show that Germany does indeed export a lot of stuff. Whether that's due specifically to Germany's labour system or other factors was not a consideration in my post; I'll leave that analysis to those more well-versed in such matters.

16th May 2012, 08:38 PM	#1
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,775	We could learn something from the Germans Germans getting ahead by getting along Quote: NUREMBURG, Germany — Underlying Germany’s vaunted manufacturing machine is a system of close collaboration among business, labor and government that has served the nation well in recent years and stands in marked contrast to the increasingly adversarial system in the U.S. Most factories in Germany are unionized, businesses have labor representatives on their boards, and union demands typically are not sources of tension or hostility with management. On a recent tour of factories here, chief executives professed to value their workers for their institutionalized knowledge and skills. U.S. companies slashed more than 6 million jobs in a matter of months during the Great Recession in the biggest job bloodletting in a half-century. In Germany, businessmen interviewed here said, they went to great lengths to retain their workers during the steep downturn of 2009. That led to a remarkable development: German unemployment actually declined during the recession. “We treat our people well. Then we can demand more,” said Count Anton-Wolfgang von Faber-Castell Now I've got name envy too. Quote: Far from pink-slipping the company’s oldest and most experienced workers during a downturn as many U.S. companies did, Mr. Faber-Castell said, he cultivated them. Valuing older workers “I worry that we didn’t keep people long enough,” he said, harking back to the recent early retirement of a key employee in Brazil, which seemed to set back the company’s largest pencil factory there. “We respect our people. We do not kick old, experienced people out. How do you keep the know-how?” he asked. Treating workers well has paid dividends for the company, the count said, particularly in the past couple of decades when unions agreed to restrain the growth of wages so Germany could catch up with the global competition and improve productivity. That resulted in a stronger economy for business and workers alike, he said. And it's not just labor and management getting along, the politicians seem to be better too: Quote: “German economic policymaking is more pragmatic than partisan,” he said. German leaders embrace, for example, a combination of spending cuts along with tax hikes to reduce deficits, all the while investing in infrastructure to stimulate jobs and growth — a mixed approach that seems to be anathema in America’s polarized political system. “U.S. leaders just might learn something from [Germany] about how to run a 21st-century industrial economy in a democracy,” Mr. Gelb said.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

16th May 2012, 11:20 PM	#2
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,916	Hm, I wash I could find the study, but the conclusion was that keeping out of labour disputes on the government's side leads to cooperation and increased satisfaction for everyone. For instance, in plenty of places there is no government mandated minimum wage. The unions settle that. Here in the US we have heavy government intervention and arbitration and the unions are decaying with heavy distrust. I would see what it said about Germany, but I can't find it again . But I know the AFCSME here in Illinois has made similar deals to try to stop layoffs. Quote: “German economic policymaking is more pragmatic than partisan,” he said. German leaders embrace, for example, a combination of spending cuts along with tax hikes to reduce deficits, all the while investing in infrastructure to stimulate jobs and growth — a mixed approach that seems to be anathema in America’s polarized political system. This I think is related to electoral and parliamentary systems, but that is just my bias
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

17th May 2012, 02:12 AM	#4
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by Puppycow Now I've got name envy too. That is undeniably an awesome name. Originally Posted by Puppycow And it's not just labor and management getting along, the politicians seem to be better too: So...this all sounds very positive, but how to change American culture to look more like this? It seems like in the USA the relationship between labor and management is designed to be adversarial, and we reward the greedy capitalists who pocket million dollar paychecks for bankrupting a viable company, slashing its pension funds, and putting thousands out of work. (Mitt Romney).
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th May 2012, 02:34 AM	#5
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good.
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

18th May 2012, 03:41 AM	#6
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,916	Originally Posted by MaGZ It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good. Yes, when trade unionists were persecuted and people deemed "work shy" were sent to prison. This is clearly the policy at play here .
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

17th May 2012, 12:04 AM	#3
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,255	I do a lot of business in Germany and it seems to me that there is a completely different business ethos over there than there is here in the UK or in the US. I get the feeling that for UK/US SMEs, the objective is to grow as quickly as possible and then get out, sell and move on to the next thing. It's a very entrepreneurial approach but it's also quite unstable. German business seems more about gradual growth, stewardship and stability. The Mittelstand (SMEs) are largely family owned and the emphasis is passing the business onto the next generation. Workers are therefore viewed as valued team members rather than disposable work units. Overall IMO this means that the German economy won't suddenly grow quickly but then again they can weather economic storms better. All of the above IMO

18th May 2012, 06:48 AM	#7
Peephole Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,245	Originally Posted by Puppycow And it's not just labor and management getting along, the politicians seem to be better too: No. If German politicians were any good, the Eurozone wouldn't be collapsing right now.
Peephole Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,245	__________________ 911science

18th May 2012, 08:58 AM	#9
Humes fork Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,359	We've had similar policies in the Nordic countries as well. Trade unions and representatives for employers negotiate. Actually both sides benefit. Employees get good terms, businesses get stability and predictability. As a result the whole country benefits.
	__________________ "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens

18th May 2012, 09:02 AM	#10
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,705	Quote: Underlying Germany’s vaunted manufacturing machine is a system of close collaboration among business... Germans and collaborators always did go hand in hand....
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

18th May 2012, 09:45 AM	#11
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by MaGZ It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good. The principle you're referring to isn't so much "everybody works together for the common good" so much as it's "let's round up those we think are gonna be dissenters and put them in a camp, then everybody else work together for the common good...until it's time to round up more people."
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th May 2012, 10:15 AM	#12
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,583	Originally Posted by Humes fork We've had similar policies in the Nordic countries as well. Trade unions and representatives for employers negotiate. Actually both sides benefit. There are examples in the U.S. of such an approach. One such case would be Major League Baseball. For many years it was rife with disputes between the players and owners, with numerous work stoppages due to either strike or lockouts, one of which terminated a season. Both sides figured out that was a counterproductive route. Since then there has been labour peace. Both sides came to realize they need the other in order to make money. They've become partners, and MLB has seen tremendous financial success in the wake of the co-operation.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

18th May 2012, 11:36 AM	#13
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,323	Originally Posted by Mycroft The principle you're referring to isn't so much "everybody works together for the common good" so much as it's "let's round up those we think are gonna be dissenters and put them in a camp, then everybody else work together for the common good...until it's time to round up more people." No, actually the realization that you could work those Jews, Soviet POWs, political opponents etc. to (near) death before you actually offed them came pretty late, around 1943, when a large part of the eventual victims had already been murdered outright. I think MaGZ is referring to things like the Arbeitsfront, which was not more than a mock-union designed to give the impression the Nazis did something for the common man, but in reality pandered to the interests of the big corporations and the state. ETA: forget the "No" at the start, I misread your post.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group Last edited by ddt; 18th May 2012 at 11:39 AM.

23rd May 2012, 06:01 PM	#14
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,795	If the German system is so good compared to the other nations of the world, wouldn't they export lots of stuff? Or be higher on the "Big Mac Standard"? Or some other subjective way to judge the 'betterness' of their system? Ok, labor is happy, management is happy, but does that mean 'better'? How to measure?
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,795	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

23rd May 2012, 08:08 PM	#15
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,583	Originally Posted by casebro If the German system is so good compared to the other nations of the world, wouldn't they export lots of stuff? Well, for what it's worth, in 2011 Germany exported $98.4 billion worth of goods to the United States. (The U.S. exported $49.1 billion worth of goods to Germany that same year.)
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

23rd May 2012, 08:21 PM	#16
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,916	I've actually just came across some info on this in my readings but happenstance. This practice is called concertation in literature. It can be social corporatism, which favours labour, or liberal corporatism, which favours business. This is correlated with consensual governance, compared to pluralist interests which correlates with majoritarian governance.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

23rd May 2012, 10:40 PM	#17
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,958	Originally Posted by MaGZ It seems the Germans today are going back to National Socialist economic principals of labor and managment working together for the greater good. The same principles which animated the destruction of trade unions in 1933, and later the horrors of the slave labour camps. Anyway it turns out that the "greater good" was creating a huge military machine and using it in an attempt to conquer and plunder Europe. Fortunately the present German government doesn't seem inclined to go back to these economic principles.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,958

24th May 2012, 04:58 AM	#18
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by casebro If the German system is so good compared to the other nations of the world, wouldn't they export lots of stuff? Actually, from 2003-2008 Germany was the largest export nation in the world. In total. Before that it was on place two behind the US for many years, and since 2009 China takes the lead, followed by the US and Germany about on par.
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24th May 2012, 05:01 AM	#19
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,095	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 Well, for what it's worth, in 2011 Germany exported $98.4 billion worth of goods to the United States. (The U.S. exported $49.1 billion worth of goods to Germany that same year.) Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.

24th May 2012, 05:12 AM	#20
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by WildCat Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion.
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24th May 2012, 05:41 AM	#21
stokes234 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 2,295	Originally Posted by WildCat Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion. That doesn't sound right. If germany are exporting about twice as much as they are importing from america despite having a quarter of the population, then germans are about 8 times better per person at making things americans want than americans are at making things germans want.
	__________________ "I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune

24th May 2012, 11:33 AM	#22
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,583	I posted the German export figures to the U.S. because I knew where to easily find the foreign trade data for the U.S. According to Wikipedia (which in turn cites the Federal Statistics Office of Germany), in 2011 Germany exported €1.288 trillion, of which 6.8% went to the U.S.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

24th May 2012, 12:22 PM	#23
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 I posted the German export figures to the U.S. because I knew where to easily find the foreign trade data for the U.S. According to Wikipedia (which in turn cites the Federal Statistics Office of Germany), in 2011 Germany exported €1.288 trillion, of which 6.8% went to the U.S. See my link, WTO numbers. I didn't find an equivalent on the English language wikipedia but it should be clear what that table shows (top three exporters over the years) and what countries like "Kanada" are. "BR Deutschland" means West-Germany up until the Reunification. 2011 numbers I think are still estimates.
	__________________ Breaking The Set Last edited by Childlike Empress; 24th May 2012 at 12:26 PM.

24th May 2012, 12:33 PM	#24
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,840	Meant to post this already, but didn't for reasons mentioned in this article I think might be interesting to some reading this thread: "Germany is the most grown-up country in the world today"
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24th May 2012, 01:00 PM	#25
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,795	Originally Posted by WildCat Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion. Oh my good god.............
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24th May 2012, 06:33 PM	#26
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	Originally Posted by Craig B The same principles which animated the destruction of trade unions in 1933, and later the horrors of the slave labour camps. Anyway it turns out that the "greater good" was creating a huge military machine and using it in an attempt to conquer and plunder Europe. Fortunately the present German government doesn't seem inclined to go back to these economic principles. “Slave labour camps” Do you mean how prisoners have to work in prison factories to make things like they do in the US?
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

25th May 2012, 05:07 AM	#27
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,780	Originally Posted by WildCat Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion. Since the US population is 3.8 Germany´s population, shouldn´t you expect the US´s exports to Germany to be closer to $375 billion than $50 billion?
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

25th May 2012, 08:25 AM	#28
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,958	Originally Posted by MaGZ “Slave labour camps” Do you mean how prisoners have to work in prison factories to make things like they do in the US? Not unless new arrivals unable to work are promptly murdered, while the others are worked to death in a few months. If I was a US citizen, even given the deplorable character of the US penal system, I would take the very strongest exception to your absurd post. Can you possibly be writing seriously, or are you simply setting down the first things that happen to enter your head?
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,958

25th May 2012, 08:39 PM	#29
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,095	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Don't facepalm me, I didn't come up with that metric.

25th May 2012, 08:42 PM	#30
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,095	Originally Posted by Chaos Since the US population is 3.8 Germany´s population, shouldn´t you expect the US´s exports to Germany to be closer to $375 billion than $50 billion? Quite the opposite. Much smaller market, thus less potential.

26th May 2012, 12:08 AM	#31
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,826	Originally Posted by WildCat Since the US population is 3.8 times Germany's population, you'd expect (all other things being equal) that Germany's exports to the US would be closer to $185 billion. What? The relative size of Germany vs the US has zero implication for what the bilateral merchandise trade balance should be.

26th May 2012, 12:09 AM	#32
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,826	Originally Posted by stokes234 If germany are exporting about twice as much as they are importing from america despite having a quarter of the population, then germans are about 8 times better per person at making things americans want than americans are at making things germans want. That's an incorrect inference as well. The relative size of the countries is irrelevant.

26th May 2012, 01:41 AM	#33
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,826	Originally Posted by Chaos Since the US population is 3.8 Germany´s population, shouldn´t you expect the US´s exports to Germany to be closer to $375 billion than $50 billion? And again, irrelevant. I can run a one-woman business and have a German client who pays me £25,000 per year in fees. As long as I don't buy stuff from German suppliers / supply chains worth that amount, then I've got a "net export surplus" with Germany, yet there's only one me and 81,700,000 of them. Does that mean I'm 80 million times better at making stuff the Germans want than they are at making things I want? Doesn't mean very much.

26th May 2012, 01:50 AM	#34
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,826	60% of Germany's exports are bought by the rest of the EU. There is general agreement that this reflects the uncompetitiveness of the other Euro-zone members which has grown larger over time as they have experienced higher factor cost increases (mostly labour) with no FX rate flexibility. Without the euro, Germany's currency would have appreciated to compensate for this. Therefore to a large extent, Germany is deriving benefit via its trade balance from the same causes that are stressing out most of southern Europe. (It is also of course deriviing further benefit via a much lower cost of capital than it would otherwise have as investors avoid other EMU markets). This is why many in the zone (except Germans of course) believe that Germany has a moral obligation to contribute more to solve the EMU crisis.

26th May 2012, 03:31 AM	#35
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,780	Originally Posted by Francesca R And again, irrelevant. I wasn´t being serious, I was just turning Wildcat´s BS around against him.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

26th May 2012, 04:21 AM	#36
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	The main thing to learn from Germany is that countries that produce real goods and services tend to have more stable economies than those countries where everybody wants to play "banker".