Any Societies Where Men Have Longer Hair than Women?

andyandy · 2nd August 2012, 02:02 AM

OK, a random question - but I was wondering why across many different cultures and societies we have all settled on a standardised cultural norm for hair length - where on average women's hair is longer than men's.

So,

1) Are there any cultures where this is not the case - ie women having short hair and men long hair (now or historically)?

2) Is there any reason for this?

(This doesn't fit especially well in any sub-forum, so i've plumped for SMMT - in an anthropological scientific sense....

)

andyandy · 2nd August 2012, 02:04 AM

and to preemptively clarify, hair on the head not any other places

Jack by the hedge · 2nd August 2012, 02:12 AM

Sikhism forbids the cutting of the hair, so I guess you could call that a draw.

(So far as I know the prohibition is not just for men. I may be wrong.)

Puppycow · 2nd August 2012, 02:12 AM

Haredi Jews?

http://www.orthodox-jews.com/orthodo...#axzz22NWL61FP

Quote:

Some extreme ultra-orthodox Jewish women shave heads and wear only a kerchief (tichel) on their head.

Captain_Swoop · 2nd August 2012, 02:33 AM

UK in the 70s?

Halfcentaur · 2nd August 2012, 04:20 AM

What's funny and tragic is that pubic hair actually protects from bacteria and debris and you're at more risk shaving your pubic hair in the name of sanitation than if you left it alone.

I've got a thing for mammals.

Resume · 2nd August 2012, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

What's funny and tragic is that pubic hair actually protects from bacteria and debris and you're at more risk shaving your pubic hair in the name of sanitation than if you left it alone.

I've got a thing for mammals.

Astutely hirsute? Hirsutely astute?

Ethan Thane Athen · 2nd August 2012, 06:01 AM

Isn't short hair for men a relatively recent thing (20th century onwards)?

Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour?

More than happy to be torn apart on this - history is not my strong point so the above is just my (possibly misguided) perception.

I'm also probably biased as I had long hair until male pattern baldness meant I had to have it cut short or look like Francis Rossi*.

*Not that I don't have the utmost respect for Mr Rossi - I just don't think it's a good look!

Guybrush Threepwood · 2nd August 2012, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

What's funny and tragic is that pubic hair actually protects from bacteria and debris and you're at more risk shaving your pubic hair in the name of sanitation than if you left it alone.

I've got a thing for mammals.

Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics

Dinwar · 2nd August 2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour?

Not sure about that. I can assure that hair is NOT enough padding, by a long shot--I have thick, bushy hair, probably the best type for padding, but once it gets soaked (which it will do in a few minutes with armor on) it loses all utility as padding.

I think it's more like why I don't shave: cutting hair is a waste of time in most cases. It'll only grow back, after all, and long hair really isn't that hard to deal with (otherwise no one would have it). Most cultures in history had better things to worry about than hair length.

The monks of the Middle Ages may have been required to keep their hair long, depending on the sect. And it was somewhat in fashion at various points in history.

Ixion · 2nd August 2012, 12:38 PM

The Maasai Tribe in eastern Africa uses hair length as a sign of social standing. Traditionally, women shave their heads somewhat frequently and men who are also warriors wear long hair. However, significant life changes, such as puberty, marriage, births, deaths, etc. can result in the affected person having his or her head shaved.

Paul W · 2nd August 2012, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics

Don't know about that.

I stopped shaving my chin when my girlfriend at the time (later, to assuage those sensitive souls amongst you (if there are any), my wife) complained that she was fed up with the inside of her thighs feeling as if they had been sandpapered.

I write this in the middle of the Olympics. How come all these nubile wenches in (for example) the swiming have not a trace of body hair?

I think I go along with Clive James. "On the correctly formed pubescent girl, a Speedo looked wonderful. When it was wet, it was an incitement to riot".

hgc · 2nd August 2012, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Paul W

I write this in the middle of the Olympics. How come all these nubile wenches in (for example) the swiming have not a trace of body hair?

Competitive swimmers always remove all exposed body hair, for hydrodynamic reasons.

WhatRoughBeast · 2nd August 2012, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics

Well, just to raise the ick factor, shaving the pubes would eliminate pubic lice in the same way shaving the head deals with head lice. It used to be done about 500 years ago.

Then, of course, you're in the market for a merkin.

WhatRoughBeast · 2nd August 2012, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

Isn't short hair for men a relatively recent thing (20th century onwards)?

Depends on how common you set your threshold. See, for instance, Roundheads vs Cavaliers (1600s), although by some accounting the term Roundhead did not refer to haircut.

If by short hair you mean a few inches, then most troops in the US Civil War had short hair. Not all, but most.

CapelDodger · 2nd August 2012, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

UK in the 70s?

You need to be more specific; please specify periods (start-month/year, end-month/year and principle city for each example; Manchester is allowed two mentions).

CapelDodger · 2nd August 2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour?

If you're working in the fields or on a building site or just about anywhere else, long hair is a pain. The point of having long hair is that it shows you're above all that.

CapelDodger · 2nd August 2012, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast

If by short hair you mean a few inches, then most troops in the US Civil War had short hair. Not all, but most.

Mostly ordinary guys doing ordinary jobs and being used to a sensible haircut, before and (with luck) after they marched off to war.

FramerDave · 2nd August 2012, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

Isn't short hair for men a relatively recent thing (20th century onwards)?

Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour?

More than happy to be torn apart on this - history is not my strong point so the above is just my (possibly misguided) perception.

I'm also probably biased as I had long hair until male pattern baldness meant I had to have it cut short or look like Francis Rossi*.

*Not that I don't have the utmost respect for Mr Rossi - I just don't think it's a good look!

I don't know about that. Aside from the previously mentioned point that hair wouldn't really provide much protection, long hair would also provide an enemy with a handy grip during the process of slitting your throat or lopping your head off

WhatRoughBeast · 2nd August 2012, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

Aside from the previously mentioned point that hair wouldn't really provide much protection, long hair would also provide an enemy with a handy grip during the process of slitting your throat or lopping your head off

And let's not forget the Spartans, who wore their hair long with the explicit knowledge that a pursuer would be able to grab it. So no running away.

I Ratant · 2nd August 2012, 06:12 PM

Around rotating machinery...
http://oopslist.com/Hair%20today%20Gone%20tomorrow.jpg

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Mostly ordinary guys doing ordinary jobs and being used to a sensible haircut, before and (with luck) after they marched off to war.

WhatRoughBeast · 3rd August 2012, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Mostly ordinary guys doing ordinary jobs and being used to a sensible haircut, before and (with luck) after they marched off to war.

Perfectly reasonable, but what would be the evidence? I used the Civil War as an example because of the existence of a lot of photographs, but as far as I know, civilian photography at the time was mostly confined to the well-to-do.

WhatRoughBeast · 3rd August 2012, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Around rotating machinery...
http://oopslist.com/Hair%20today%20Gone%20tomorrow.jpg

During the Civil War? 1860?

I Ratant · 3rd August 2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast

During the Civil War? 1860?

.
Clue.
The example is in line with the theme of the OP, not your messages.

WhatRoughBeast · 3rd August 2012, 09:21 AM

My apologies. Inappropriate context filter. I had just replied to CarpelDodger, and was in the wrong frame of reference.

ArmillarySphere · 5th August 2012, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Not sure about that. I can assure that hair is NOT enough padding, by a long shot--I have thick, bushy hair, probably the best type for padding, but once it gets soaked (which it will do in a few minutes with armor on) it loses all utility as padding.

The monks of the Middle Ages may have been required to keep their hair long, depending on the sect. And it was somewhat in fashion at various points in history.

Long hair for men has been going in and out of fashion - 11th c short, 12th-mid 14th c long, late 14th-16th c short, 17th c long and so forth.

Funny enough, for much of the middle ages the beauty ideal was the same for men and women, and some romances enthusiastically point out that the hero was so beautiful you could mistake him for a woman. Rosy mouth, white skin, long blonde hair ...

I've fought both with long and short hair, and long hair is more a pain than otherwise - no matter how well you try to tuck it away, it tends to get in your eyes after you've been sweating in your helmet for a while.

Pup · 5th August 2012, 06:30 AM

Something to consider: In the 19th century (because that's the main era other than the modern one that I know much about), women in typical western countries at least, were expected to wear long hair. It was impractical working over a fire, carrying a baby who grabs things, leaning over preparing food, etc. So they had to wear it up most of the time, giving the appearance of short hair.

Not sure what that means, but it shows that hair length isn't necessarily tied to practicality.

JWilkins · 5th August 2012, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast

Depends on how common you set your threshold. See, for instance, Roundheads vs Cavaliers (1600s), although by some accounting the term Roundhead did not refer to haircut.

If a crusader (male or female)(did women crusade or was/is it a man thing?) shaved themselves bald would they not be able to wear a smaller and thus lighter <weight> helm?

CapelDodger · 5th August 2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast

Perfectly reasonable, but what would be the evidence? I used the Civil War as an example because of the existence of a lot of photographs, but as far as I know, civilian photography at the time was mostly confined to the well-to-do.

Photography studios were actually quite common at the time (probably more so in the North) and photographs for special occasions were well within the means of most famillies. I seem to recall that there were promotional offers for boys off to the front, but again that may be more of a Northern thing.

My impression of Civil War officers is that Southerners tended to have longer hair than Northerners, which perhaps reflects the aristocratic nature of their society. Just thinking off the top of my head, you understand.

Jensen · 5th August 2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics

I sell it for wigs.

WhatRoughBeast · 5th August 2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jensen

I sell it for wigs.

Per an earlier post, the technical term is "merkin".

Also, watch the South Park episode "Scott Tenorman Must Die".

CapelDodger · 5th August 2012, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Pup

Something to consider: In the 19th century (because that's the main era other than the modern one that I know much about), women in typical western countries at least, were expected to wear long hair. It was impractical working over a fire, carrying a baby who grabs things, leaning over preparing food, etc. So they had to wear it up most of the time, giving the appearance of short hair.

Not sure what that means, but it shows that hair length isn't necessarily tied to practicality.

It may have bearing on the fact that in many traditions an unmarried women wears here hair loose; only after marriage (and the domestic/maternal duties that go with it) does a woman bind up her hair in public.

"Loose hair, loose legs", as the old saying goes.

CapelDodger · 5th August 2012, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere

Funny enough, for much of the middle ages the beauty ideal was the same for men and women, and some romances enthusiastically point out that the hero was so beautiful you could mistake him for a woman. Rosy mouth, white skin, long blonde hair ....

There's a distinct homoerotic flavour in chivalry, as in many other warrior cults. It's not just the Greeks - search on "Roman camp" and you'll find it's all about the military.

Morrigan · 5th August 2012, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere

I've fought both with long and short hair, and long hair is more a pain than otherwise - no matter how well you try to tuck it away, it tends to get in your eyes after you've been sweating in your helmet for a while.

You're doing it wrong. :P You need to wear a piece of cloth on top of your head to keep the hair off your face and the sweat off your eyes. I have super-long hair (like really really long) and I practice kendo, we wear a tenugui on the head before putting on the men (helmet), and I have never had hair in my face or in my eyes, ever.

...I do sometimes get my hair tangled up in the himo of my men when tying it, though. That does get annoying.

As to the OP, all I can say is: I don't know, but there should be! And if so, where are they so I can move there

ArmillarySphere · 7th August 2012, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

You're doing it wrong. :P You need to wear a piece of cloth on top of your head to keep the hair off your face and the sweat off your eyes. I have super-long hair (like really really long) and I practice kendo, we wear a tenugui on the head before putting on the men (helmet), and I have never had hair in my face or in my eyes, ever.

It's called a coif for mediaevalists, and yes, I wear one, but my hair wasn't sioux-warrior-length, just shoulder-length, so it could still shift about a little.

Originally Posted by Morrigan

...I do sometimes get my hair tangled up in the himo of my men when tying it, though. That does get annoying.

... and THAT is what I'm talking about.

Re: earlier comment about being able to wear a lighter/cheaper helmet, this isn't necessarily a good thing. The mass of the helmet helps to alleviate the force on your neck and prevent whiplash. During tilting, they would wear a small skullcap and then a great helm on top of that, to ensure both protection and the necessary mass if a lance-tip hits your head. The two helmets are held apart by a stuffed ring (which could contain horse-hair).

Back to the OP then ... so some First Nation cultures would be one example of where both sexes had long hair. Qing dynasty Chinese is another.

During the English Parliamentary war, hairstyle was also a political statement - the king's men wore long hair, so Cromwell's cut theirs short as a statement of defiance (hence the epithet Roundheads).

Morrigan · 7th August 2012, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere

... and THAT is what I'm talking about.

Eh? You said it got in your face and eyes. This isn't what I'm talking about at all, I'm talking about some hair getting tangled in the himo (the cord we use to tie it) at the back of my head.

Dinwar · 7th August 2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

You're doing it wrong. :P You need to wear a piece of cloth on top of your head to keep the hair off your face and the sweat off your eyes.

In the Middle Ages they wore arming caps in part for that reason. Thing is, it doesn't always work. Strands still get out of place and into your eyes. It's better than nothing, but certainly not good.

I think your really, really long hair helps, too. Hair that's mid-length (say, shoulder length) is harder to put into a configuration that keeps it out of your eyes. If your bangs are long enough to reach your waist it's not as much of a problem. It's currently driving me nuts, because my hair is JUUUST long enough to start getting behind my glasses.....

Quote:

...I do sometimes get my hair tangled up in the himo of my men when tying it, though. That does get annoying.

There's that, too. Long hair is easy to grab hold of. Doesn't seem like much, but any hand-hold is something you want to deny your enemy in battle.

Originally Posted by JWilkins

If a crusader (male or female)(did women crusade or was/is it a man thing?) shaved themselves bald would they not be able to wear a smaller and thus lighter <weight> helm?

You're forgetting inertia. A heavier helm isn't going to move as much as a light one when you get clocked upside the head. Ran into this problem myself--I switched from a heavier type of armor to a lighter leather armor, and immediately noticed that the blows felt harder. The flexibility wasn't the issue (my maille was plenty flexible), it was just that the leather had less inertia, and therefore was easier to push around.

I've also fought with a lighter helm vs. my current "OMG WTF IS THAT THING?!" monstrosity. In my current helm I simply don't CARE what you hit my head with. It sucks to get hit in the skull with a polearm, but not enough that I'm worried about damage. In the lighter helm I was scared that I'd get my skull cracked. It may be completely in my head (and likely was--the lighter one was harder steel), but that perception is important. In battle you have to take some risks, and if you feel better-protected you'll be more willing to take them.

2nd August 2012, 02:02 AM	#1
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	Any Societies Where Men Have Longer Hair than Women? OK, a random question - but I was wondering why across many different cultures and societies we have all settled on a standardised cultural norm for hair length - where on average women's hair is longer than men's. So, 1) Are there any cultures where this is not the case - ie women having short hair and men long hair (now or historically)? 2) Is there any reason for this? (This doesn't fit especially well in any sub-forum, so i've plumped for SMMT - in an anthropological scientific sense.... )
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

2nd August 2012, 02:04 AM	#2
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	and to preemptively clarify, hair on the head not any other places
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

2nd August 2012, 02:12 AM	#4
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,775	Haredi Jews? http://www.orthodox-jews.com/orthodo...#axzz22NWL61FP Quote: Some extreme ultra-orthodox Jewish women shave heads and wear only a kerchief (tichel) on their head.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22 Last edited by Puppycow; 2nd August 2012 at 02:15 AM.

2nd August 2012, 04:20 AM	#6
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,958	What's funny and tragic is that pubic hair actually protects from bacteria and debris and you're at more risk shaving your pubic hair in the name of sanitation than if you left it alone. I've got a thing for mammals.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,958

2nd August 2012, 05:24 AM	#7
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur What's funny and tragic is that pubic hair actually protects from bacteria and debris and you're at more risk shaving your pubic hair in the name of sanitation than if you left it alone. I've got a thing for mammals. Astutely hirsute? Hirsutely astute?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029

2nd August 2012, 02:12 AM	#3
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,421	Sikhism forbids the cutting of the hair, so I guess you could call that a draw. (So far as I know the prohibition is not just for men. I may be wrong.)

2nd August 2012, 02:33 AM	#5
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,935	UK in the 70s?

2nd August 2012, 06:01 AM	#8
Ethan Thane Athen Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 950	Isn't short hair for men a relatively recent thing (20th century onwards)? Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour? More than happy to be torn apart on this - history is not my strong point so the above is just my (possibly misguided) perception. I'm also probably biased as I had long hair until male pattern baldness meant I had to have it cut short or look like Francis Rossi. Not that I don't have the utmost respect for Mr Rossi - I just don't think it's a good look!
Ethan Thane Athen Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 950

2nd August 2012, 06:15 AM	#9
Guybrush Threepwood Trainee Pirate Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: An Uaimh Posts: 1,560	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur What's funny and tragic is that pubic hair actually protects from bacteria and debris and you're at more risk shaving your pubic hair in the name of sanitation than if you left it alone. I've got a thing for mammals. Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics

2nd August 2012, 07:49 AM	#10
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,957	Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour? Not sure about that. I can assure that hair is NOT enough padding, by a long shot--I have thick, bushy hair, probably the best type for padding, but once it gets soaked (which it will do in a few minutes with armor on) it loses all utility as padding. I think it's more like why I don't shave: cutting hair is a waste of time in most cases. It'll only grow back, after all, and long hair really isn't that hard to deal with (otherwise no one would have it). Most cultures in history had better things to worry about than hair length. The monks of the Middle Ages may have been required to keep their hair long, depending on the sect. And it was somewhat in fashion at various points in history.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,957	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

2nd August 2012, 12:38 PM	#11
Ixion Inquiring Mind Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,287	The Maasai Tribe in eastern Africa uses hair length as a sign of social standing. Traditionally, women shave their heads somewhat frequently and men who are also warriors wear long hair. However, significant life changes, such as puberty, marriage, births, deaths, etc. can result in the affected person having his or her head shaved.
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2nd August 2012, 01:10 PM	#12
Paul W Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 469	Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics Don't know about that. I stopped shaving my chin when my girlfriend at the time (later, to assuage those sensitive souls amongst you (if there are any), my wife) complained that she was fed up with the inside of her thighs feeling as if they had been sandpapered. I write this in the middle of the Olympics. How come all these nubile wenches in (for example) the swiming have not a trace of body hair? I think I go along with Clive James. "On the correctly formed pubescent girl, a Speedo looked wonderful. When it was wet, it was an incitement to riot".
Paul W Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 469

2nd August 2012, 01:45 PM	#13
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,018	Originally Posted by Paul W I write this in the middle of the Olympics. How come all these nubile wenches in (for example) the swiming have not a trace of body hair? Competitive swimmers always remove all exposed body hair, for hydrodynamic reasons.
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2nd August 2012, 05:24 PM	#14
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics Well, just to raise the ick factor, shaving the pubes would eliminate pubic lice in the same way shaving the head deals with head lice. It used to be done about 500 years ago. Then, of course, you're in the market for a merkin.
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

2nd August 2012, 05:30 PM	#15
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen Isn't short hair for men a relatively recent thing (20th century onwards)? Depends on how common you set your threshold. See, for instance, Roundheads vs Cavaliers (1600s), although by some accounting the term Roundhead did not refer to haircut. If by short hair you mean a few inches, then most troops in the US Civil War had short hair. Not all, but most.
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

2nd August 2012, 05:31 PM	#16
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop UK in the 70s? You need to be more specific; please specify periods (start-month/year, end-month/year and principle city for each example; Manchester is allowed two mentions).
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

2nd August 2012, 05:43 PM	#17
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour? If you're working in the fields or on a building site or just about anywhere else, long hair is a pain. The point of having long hair is that it shows you're above all that.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

2nd August 2012, 05:46 PM	#18
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast If by short hair you mean a few inches, then most troops in the US Civil War had short hair. Not all, but most. Mostly ordinary guys doing ordinary jobs and being used to a sensible haircut, before and (with luck) after they marched off to war.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

2nd August 2012, 05:56 PM	#19
FramerDave Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 721	Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen Isn't short hair for men a relatively recent thing (20th century onwards)? Apart from the Romans, didn't most cultures have long haired males - presumably because the hair could protect the neck (especially if 'bunched up' or plaited) like a form of natural padded armour? More than happy to be torn apart on this - history is not my strong point so the above is just my (possibly misguided) perception. I'm also probably biased as I had long hair until male pattern baldness meant I had to have it cut short or look like Francis Rossi. Not that I don't have the utmost respect for Mr Rossi - I just don't think it's a good look! I don't know about that. Aside from the previously mentioned point that hair wouldn't really provide much protection, long hair would also provide an enemy with a handy grip during the process of slitting your throat or lopping your head off
FramerDave Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 721	__________________ "You're likely to be the next one to get sucked up in a spaceship and butt-diddled and dropped off at the Seven Eleven." mayday "If you want to see what baby oil does to lactating breasts pm me your email." mayday

2nd August 2012, 06:03 PM	#20
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	Originally Posted by FramerDave Aside from the previously mentioned point that hair wouldn't really provide much protection, long hair would also provide an enemy with a handy grip during the process of slitting your throat or lopping your head off And let's not forget the Spartans, who wore their hair long with the explicit knowledge that a pursuer would be able to grab it. So no running away.
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

2nd August 2012, 06:12 PM	#21
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Around rotating machinery... http://oopslist.com/Hair%20today%20Gone%20tomorrow.jpg Originally Posted by CapelDodger Mostly ordinary guys doing ordinary jobs and being used to a sensible haircut, before and (with luck) after they marched off to war.

3rd August 2012, 03:15 AM	#22
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	Originally Posted by CapelDodger Mostly ordinary guys doing ordinary jobs and being used to a sensible haircut, before and (with luck) after they marched off to war. Perfectly reasonable, but what would be the evidence? I used the Civil War as an example because of the existence of a lot of photographs, but as far as I know, civilian photography at the time was mostly confined to the well-to-do.
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

3rd August 2012, 03:16 AM	#23
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	Originally Posted by I Ratant Around rotating machinery... http://oopslist.com/Hair%20today%20Gone%20tomorrow.jpg During the Civil War? 1860?
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

3rd August 2012, 09:11 AM	#24
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast During the Civil War? 1860? . Clue. The example is in line with the theme of the OP, not your messages.

3rd August 2012, 09:21 AM	#25
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	My apologies. Inappropriate context filter. I had just replied to CarpelDodger, and was in the wrong frame of reference.
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

5th August 2012, 05:34 AM	#26
ArmillarySphere Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London Posts: 713	Originally Posted by Dinwar Not sure about that. I can assure that hair is NOT enough padding, by a long shot--I have thick, bushy hair, probably the best type for padding, but once it gets soaked (which it will do in a few minutes with armor on) it loses all utility as padding. The monks of the Middle Ages may have been required to keep their hair long, depending on the sect. And it was somewhat in fashion at various points in history. Long hair for men has been going in and out of fashion - 11th c short, 12th-mid 14th c long, late 14th-16th c short, 17th c long and so forth. Funny enough, for much of the middle ages the beauty ideal was the same for men and women, and some romances enthusiastically point out that the hero was so beautiful you could mistake him for a woman. Rosy mouth, white skin, long blonde hair ... I've fought both with long and short hair, and long hair is more a pain than otherwise - no matter how well you try to tuck it away, it tends to get in your eyes after you've been sweating in your helmet for a while.

5th August 2012, 06:30 AM	#27
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,590	Something to consider: In the 19th century (because that's the main era other than the modern one that I know much about), women in typical western countries at least, were expected to wear long hair. It was impractical working over a fire, carrying a baby who grabs things, leaning over preparing food, etc. So they had to wear it up most of the time, giving the appearance of short hair. Not sure what that means, but it shows that hair length isn't necessarily tied to practicality.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,590

5th August 2012, 06:46 AM	#28
JWilkins New Blood Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 3	Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast Depends on how common you set your threshold. See, for instance, Roundheads vs Cavaliers (1600s), although by some accounting the term Roundhead did not refer to haircut. If a crusader (male or female)(did women crusade or was/is it a man thing?) shaved themselves bald would they not be able to wear a smaller and thus lighter <weight> helm?
JWilkins New Blood Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 3

5th August 2012, 11:14 AM	#29
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast Perfectly reasonable, but what would be the evidence? I used the Civil War as an example because of the existence of a lot of photographs, but as far as I know, civilian photography at the time was mostly confined to the well-to-do. Photography studios were actually quite common at the time (probably more so in the North) and photographs for special occasions were well within the means of most famillies. I seem to recall that there were promotional offers for boys off to the front, but again that may be more of a Northern thing. My impression of Civil War officers is that Southerners tended to have longer hair than Northerners, which perhaps reflects the aristocratic nature of their society. Just thinking off the top of my head, you understand.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th August 2012, 11:22 AM	#30
Jensen Scholar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bagsværd, Denmark Posts: 88	Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood Who shaves their pubic hair for sanitation? I thought it was aesthetics I sell it for wigs.

5th August 2012, 01:47 PM	#31
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818	Originally Posted by Jensen I sell it for wigs. Per an earlier post, the technical term is "merkin". Also, watch the South Park episode "Scott Tenorman Must Die".
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 818

5th August 2012, 03:44 PM	#32
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by Pup Something to consider: In the 19th century (because that's the main era other than the modern one that I know much about), women in typical western countries at least, were expected to wear long hair. It was impractical working over a fire, carrying a baby who grabs things, leaning over preparing food, etc. So they had to wear it up most of the time, giving the appearance of short hair. Not sure what that means, but it shows that hair length isn't necessarily tied to practicality. It may have bearing on the fact that in many traditions an unmarried women wears here hair loose; only after marriage (and the domestic/maternal duties that go with it) does a woman bind up her hair in public. "Loose hair, loose legs", as the old saying goes.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th August 2012, 03:54 PM	#33
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere Funny enough, for much of the middle ages the beauty ideal was the same for men and women, and some romances enthusiastically point out that the hero was so beautiful you could mistake him for a woman. Rosy mouth, white skin, long blonde hair .... There's a distinct homoerotic flavour in chivalry, as in many other warrior cults. It's not just the Greeks - search on "Roman camp" and you'll find it's all about the military.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th August 2012, 08:26 PM	#34
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere I've fought both with long and short hair, and long hair is more a pain than otherwise - no matter how well you try to tuck it away, it tends to get in your eyes after you've been sweating in your helmet for a while. You're doing it wrong. :P You need to wear a piece of cloth on top of your head to keep the hair off your face and the sweat off your eyes. I have super-long hair (like really really long) and I practice kendo, we wear a tenugui on the head before putting on the men (helmet), and I have never had hair in my face or in my eyes, ever. ...I do sometimes get my hair tangled up in the himo of my men when tying it, though. That does get annoying. As to the OP, all I can say is: I don't know, but there should be! And if so, where are they so I can move there
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	Last edited by Morrigan; 5th August 2012 at 08:28 PM.

7th August 2012, 01:29 AM	#35
ArmillarySphere Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London Posts: 713	Originally Posted by Morrigan You're doing it wrong. :P You need to wear a piece of cloth on top of your head to keep the hair off your face and the sweat off your eyes. I have super-long hair (like really really long) and I practice kendo, we wear a tenugui on the head before putting on the men (helmet), and I have never had hair in my face or in my eyes, ever. It's called a coif for mediaevalists, and yes, I wear one, but my hair wasn't sioux-warrior-length, just shoulder-length, so it could still shift about a little. Originally Posted by Morrigan ...I do sometimes get my hair tangled up in the himo of my men when tying it, though. That does get annoying. ... and THAT is what I'm talking about. Re: earlier comment about being able to wear a lighter/cheaper helmet, this isn't necessarily a good thing. The mass of the helmet helps to alleviate the force on your neck and prevent whiplash. During tilting, they would wear a small skullcap and then a great helm on top of that, to ensure both protection and the necessary mass if a lance-tip hits your head. The two helmets are held apart by a stuffed ring (which could contain horse-hair). Back to the OP then ... so some First Nation cultures would be one example of where both sexes had long hair. Qing dynasty Chinese is another. During the English Parliamentary war, hairstyle was also a political statement - the king's men wore long hair, so Cromwell's cut theirs short as a statement of defiance (hence the epithet Roundheads).