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Old 24th April 2014, 03:50 AM   #1
rayheno
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Open minds?

I'm a long term lurker, on this site, with very few posts so excuse me if this thread is in the wrong section. It is obvious that a great many posters have a high level of intelligence and knowledge, mostly way above my own. I would like to know if there have been many instances when a regular with a strongly held opinion on a subject has changed that opinion due to the arguments of others here.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:12 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
I'm a long term lurker, on this site, with very few posts so excuse me if this thread is in the wrong section. It is obvious that a great many posters have a high level of intelligence and knowledge, mostly way above my own. I would like to know if there have been many instances when a regular with a strongly held opinion on a subject has changed that opinion due to the arguments of others here.
I think Randfan said that happened to him.

I had a few beliefs that I'd never really thought about changed, just by following links and reading up on details I was previously unaware of.

Mostly to do with food and nutrition myths.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:17 AM   #3
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Cheers for the reply but I was thinking more about strongly held opinions, not ones you never really thought about.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:19 AM   #4
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Randfan comes to mind. I've changed my stance on a few issues over the years and in fact my opinions have often been shaped by what I read here.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
Cheers for the reply but I was thinking more about strongly held opinions, not ones you never really thought about.
Randfan's opinions were strongly held.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:30 AM   #6
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That's interesting. The reason I asked is from reading the forums I have seen so many initial statements being blindly adhered to despite what I would consider well reasoned and referenced rebuttals. I do appreciate the value of defending your opinions, but in most cases it appears to be wilfully ignoring reality rather than admit to a mistaken belief. After a few pages of reply it regularly decends into a chest beating exercise, nitpicking replacing debate.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:33 AM   #7
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What was the subject of Randfan change of opinion, could you direct me to the thread?
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:37 AM   #8
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I've said this before on the forum. I have changed my mind about polygraphs. I was responsible for their use in one investigation and supported their findings in many others. This forum made me regret every one of those decisions.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:42 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
What was the subject of Randfan change of opinion, could you direct me to the thread?
It might have been before my time. I think he came here as an advocate for the "Philosophy" espoused by Ayn Rand (hence the name). I get the impression that it was a gradual process.

You can search his posting history.

I don't think he's been around here lately though.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:43 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
That's interesting. The reason I asked is from reading the forums I have seen so many initial statements being blindly adhered to despite what I would consider well reasoned and referenced rebuttals. I do appreciate the value of defending your opinions, but in most cases it appears to be wilfully ignoring reality rather than admit to a mistaken belief. After a few pages of reply it regularly decends into a chest beating exercise, nitpicking replacing debate.
Every forum everywhere.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:47 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
It might have been before my time. I think he came here as an advocate for the "Philosophy" espoused by Ayn Rand (hence the name). I get the impression that it was a gradual process.

You can search his posting history.

I don't think he's been around here lately though.
This. He spent many years here as a hardcore Republican. Gradually his mind changed enough for him to abandon the GOP both because of his participation here and because he felt the party abandoned him and basic conservative principles.
But he's always been a good guy and that hasn't changed.
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Old 24th April 2014, 04:52 AM   #12
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For myself I'll say that I was raised to hate guns by a pacifist hippie.
My mind was changed over the course of many debates here wherein the pro and anti gun sides made their respective cases, and it became clear to me that one side has reason and facts largely on their side while the other had hysterics and appeals to emotion.
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Old 24th April 2014, 05:03 AM   #13
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It is not easy to admit you are wrong in public. The culture here does not exactly make it any easier, with a good deal of mockery and sarcasm attending any sloppy or unreasonable thinking.

Out in the real world, this trait can have profound consequences. The topic that brought me here, Amanda Knox, is one which probably would not exist without the deep reluctance of the cops to admit or face up to error and since getting into that case I have come across many more in which people just dig in in the face of mounting contrary evidence.

Many subjects here do not lend themselves to 'rightness' and 'wrongness' but, of those that do, I frequently see people being corrected and accepting the correction. The less invested they are the easier it is. I think it helps to try not to stick your neck out too far into areas above your pay grade because there is bound to be somebody who knows whatever the subject is way better than you.
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Old 24th April 2014, 05:14 AM   #14
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Didn't chillzero come here initially as someone who believed she was psychic?
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Old 24th April 2014, 05:30 AM   #15
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We have a few ex-passionate-9/11 Truthers too.
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Old 24th April 2014, 05:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Many subjects here do not lend themselves to 'rightness' and 'wrongness' but, of those that do, I frequently see people being corrected and accepting the correction. The less invested they are the easier it is. I think it helps to try not to stick your neck out too far into areas above your pay grade because there is bound to be somebody who knows whatever the subject is way better than you.
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Old 24th April 2014, 05:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
That's why I post little, but read lots. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stick around. We'll make you think differently.
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Old 24th April 2014, 06:13 AM   #18
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Not necessarily this site, but over time I changed my views on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars due largely to the drip, drip, drip of online debates.
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Old 24th April 2014, 06:45 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
I would like to know if there have been many instances when a regular with a strongly held opinion on a subject has changed that opinion due to the arguments of others here.
Yes.
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Old 24th April 2014, 06:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
We have a few ex-passionate-9/11 Truthers too.
Indeed. A few people here were Truthers and got talked round. One of them is still very, very passionate but is now a very big supporter of the NWO.

Others used to be religious but have now changed. Not sure if Wolfman was a Christian missionary when he joined but he has let us know that he was very passionate (and I believe it), but has changed his mind. Another two or three posters here used to be Christian but now they have been cured!!!

As for me, I used to be an opponent of paedophilia and anti-semitism.
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Old 24th April 2014, 07:04 AM   #21
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Actually, don't tell him this, but the guy in my sig was persuaded to change his position before forgetting that he did and reverting back to his previous stance, which is why I thought a permanent reminder necessary

This suggests not only a problem with changing one's mind but, beyond that, an inability to keep it from slipping back to its previous wrongness.
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Old 24th April 2014, 07:09 AM   #22
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I think I used to be more open-minded in regard to the sincerity of woo-slingers. Now I pretty much cast a jaundiced, unsympathetic eye to the ******** they sling unless they're clearly mentally unstable, and sometimes not even then.
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Old 24th April 2014, 07:13 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Not necessarily this site, but over time I changed my views on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars due largely to the drip, drip, drip of online debates.
In which direction? I think I have become a frothing, ultra-left anarchist during my time here with respect to these issues although I was already well on the way before so I'm not sure what the effect discussion has had. I now consider every pronouncement by the US/UK on foreign affairs to be a bare-faced lie until the contrary is proved.
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Old 24th April 2014, 07:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
In which direction? I think I have become a frothing, ultra-left anarchist during my time here with respect to these issues although I was already well on the way before so I'm not sure what the effect discussion has had. I now consider every pronouncement by the US/UK on foreign affairs to be a bare-faced lie until the contrary is proved.
Never believe anything until it is officially denied.
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Old 24th April 2014, 07:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
For myself I'll say that I was raised to hate guns by a pacifist hippie.
My mind was changed over the course of many debates here wherein the pro and anti gun sides made their respective cases, and it became clear to me that one side has reason and facts largely on their side while the other had hysterics and appeals to emotion.
I don't hate or love guns, but which side uses hysterics and appeals to emotion, because I see that on both sides of the issue, as well as reason and rationality? A lot of people pretend that there isn't a sane middle ground that could satisfy the majority, and keep in line with the 2nd amendment. That is why I don't generally get into debates on gun restrictions. Too much hysterics and bullying, without much reason.
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Old 24th April 2014, 08:04 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
In which direction?
I now hold that both enterprises were very poorly conceived, and should have been avoided, or at least conducted with a specific goal and time frame.

Like Vietnam, I think many will wonder looking back what all that blood and treasure really accomplished.
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Old 24th April 2014, 08:12 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I now hold that both enterprises were very poorly conceived, and should have been avoided, or at least conducted with a specific goal and time frame.

Like Vietnam, I think many will wonder looking back what all that blood and treasure really accomplished.
OK, thanks. I agree and admire your under-statement. Another time and place we may get to discuss these topics.
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Old 24th April 2014, 08:25 AM   #28
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In my experience, it is most frequently the people saying "you need to keep an open mind" who are least likely to be open to evidence and fact based discussion.
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Old 24th April 2014, 08:30 AM   #29
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I think this was the forum where I had a conversation with someone who had a background in atomospheric sciences that convinced me my resistance to accepting AGW was largely misplaced. I still have reservations about the accuracy of some of the models and predictions, but I certainly don't think it's a science panic any longer.
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Old 24th April 2014, 08:38 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
I'm a long term lurker, on this site, with very few posts so excuse me if this thread is in the wrong section. It is obvious that a great many posters have a high level of intelligence and knowledge, mostly way above my own. I would like to know if there have been many instances when a regular with a strongly held opinion on a subject has changed that opinion due to the arguments of others here.
I have had a few changed.

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Old 24th April 2014, 08:42 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
In my experience, it is most frequently the people saying "you need to keep an open mind" who are least likely to be open to evidence and fact based discussion.
My problem seems to be that whenever someone asks me to keep my mind open, it's because they want to start throwing trash in it.



My mind is not closed, but neither is it a dumpster for whatever unevidenced nonsense someone wants to fill it with. A bar to entry (your idea must be this tall reasonable to enter) is not a barricade.

That being said, and more directly to the OP, I've had gradual changes on quite a few beliefs. I don't think anything major, but when I came to the board I had recently abandoned a lot of deeply held beliefs (came from a very religious family), so there wasn't a whole lot left to work with
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Old 24th April 2014, 09:06 AM   #32
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My reason for joining this forum related to the 911 conspiracy. A friend of mine sent me some links, youtube and blogs etc. I found them quite convincing at first (not having looked much into it). I came here to get links and evidence against the CT view so I could weigh up both sides. In truth it only took a little research to realise the conspiracy angle was nonsense. What scares me is that my friend, a reasonably intelligent guy, still clings to the conspiracy angle, regardless of any argument. I have had to refuse to discuss it anymore for fear of losing respect for such a good friend. As far as I'm now concerned it's his new religion and nothing will change his view.
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Old 24th April 2014, 10:20 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
I'm a long term lurker, on this site, with very few posts so excuse me if this thread is in the wrong section. It is obvious that a great many posters have a high level of intelligence and knowledge, mostly way above my own. I would like to know if there have been many instances when a regular with a strongly held opinion on a subject has changed that opinion due to the arguments of others here.

I changed my opinion regarding circumcision due to the evidence presented by people here. I now believe that there's no medical reason for the procedure.

I've also gained a lot of information which has helped me form opinions about topics I previously didn't understand.
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Old 24th April 2014, 10:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
In my experience, it is most frequently the people saying "you need to keep an open mind" who are least likely to be open to evidence and fact based discussion.
Yes. Definitely my experience, too.


Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I realize I am not the smartest kid on the block, and that I am out of my depth in many debates. But this does not take away from me the life experience of delving into magic matters. I watched as David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear. I watched as Penn & Teller caught actual bullets in their mouth. Sure, some people say they are just "tricks", but I know what I saw. These claims of "tricks" are just an attempt to sweep my experiences aside. I am confident my memory of these incidents is fairly accurate. Therefore my conclusions about them remain the same in spite of dismissive arguments I have read here.
Which is a variation on what jond said above. Point out these things about magic tricks or point out sincere people being fooled by someone that the current believer says is a charlatan, and the response is along the lines of "Yes, but that wouldn't fool me; I can tell the difference." Of course, they can never outline the means by which they tell the difference.


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think it unlikely that anyone else here has as much experience of psychic mediums as I have. I have been looking into it since the 1960's and I attended many trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London throughout the 1970's. My conclusions were that some mediums are genuine, and they do not just do cold reading, as James Randi says. They do tell you facts and names, and details that it would be difficult for them to know unless they are doing what they say they are doing. Which is talking to the spirits of the departed. I conclude that most people here have little or no experience of psychics, and they write them off because of a preconception that they must all be fakes. Or it would entirely change the scientific paradigm. We would have to accept life after death, and higher realms of experience. Therefore I guess I am trying to preach a belief system.
I likely do not have as much experience as you, but my experience is still extensive, and I will hold it up against yours any day as qualification to make judgments on what mediums/psychics do and how they do it.

And you misrepresent Randi. He does not say that cold reading is the only thing that they do. Nor do I say it.

I could go into much detail, but it would be a derail, so if you want to continue your side trip into how your experiences are legitimate, please start another thread, and I will join. Otherwise, I'm done with the topic here.
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Old 24th April 2014, 11:52 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
For myself I'll say that I was raised to hate guns by a pacifist hippie.
My mind was changed over the course of many debates here wherein the pro and anti gun sides made their respective cases, and it became clear to me that one side has reason and facts largely on their side while the other had hysterics and appeals to emotion.
Originally Posted by Cayvmann View Post
I don't hate or love guns, but which side uses hysterics and appeals to emotion, because I see that on both sides of the issue, as well as reason and rationality? A lot of people pretend that there isn't a sane middle ground that could satisfy the majority, and keep in line with the 2nd amendment. That is why I don't generally get into debates on gun restrictions. Too much hysterics and bullying, without much reason.
I have actually softened my stance on gun restrictions after participating in many debates here. I guess you could say I have moved to that sane middle ground. I used to think that law-abiding citizens should have unfettered access to the guns of their choosing. Now I am for more sensible regulations than we have now. I'm not going to go into details for fear of derailing the thread. It's a small change but one that I have noticed. There may be others. Mostly, I have been educated.
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Old 24th April 2014, 01:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I have actually softened my stance on gun restrictions after participating in many debates here. I guess you could say I have moved to that sane middle ground. I used to think that law-abiding citizens should have unfettered access to the guns of their choosing. Now I am for more sensible regulations than we have now. I'm not going to go into details for fear of derailing the thread. It's a small change but one that I have noticed. There may be others. Mostly, I have been educated.
This

Many times
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Old 24th April 2014, 01:42 PM   #37
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Yes to the education. JREF was not the only factor, but it was definitely a prime factor in making me realize that I am not the astounding infallible and towering intellect I sometimes used to think I was.

It is rewardingly humbling to find out that I may be smart and informed, but regardless of the topic there is always one or a thousand others who are smarter and better informed.
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Old 24th April 2014, 01:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Yes to the education. JREF was not the only factor, but it was definitely a prime factor in making me realize that I am not the astounding infallible and towering intellect I sometimes used to think I was.

It is rewardingly humbling to find out that I may be smart and informed, but regardless of the topic there is always one or a thousand others who are smarter and better informed.
I've found a little self-irony can go a long way on this here forum.
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Old 24th April 2014, 02:00 PM   #39
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I used to be annoyed by people who were involved in politics.

Now I absolutely loathe them.

That's what the JREF did for me. Hell, I don't even vote or watch the news anymore because of this place. Made my life much more enjoyable with zero downsides.

I also used to be firmly on the fence about Bigfoot. Now I'm pretty sure I'm in the non-believer camp.
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Old 24th April 2014, 06:56 PM   #40
michael44
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
I'm a long term lurker, on this site, with very few posts so excuse me if this thread is in the wrong section. It is obvious that a great many posters have a high level of intelligence and knowledge, mostly way above my own. I would like to know if there have been many instances when a regular with a strongly held opinion on a subject has changed that opinion due to the arguments of others here.
Although not a longtime member here, i've also been a lurker for quite sometime. .. As for whether my opinion on any particular subject matter has been changed due to the arguments between others here on JREF, well, I would have to say its done more to reinforce them rather than change anything. .. The primary reason I became a member here, was to help sort out all the theoretical viewpoints surrounding 911. Being somewhat against most all conspiracies or CT'rs (because they all too often fall short of logic and evidence), I found it a relief to find others who could finally put into perspective what i've always known and felt all along, but as yet myself the abilty to emphasize on. .. That is, the truth or best explanation based upon clear logic and evidence. .. Might I add, my level of intellect does fall short here. Lets just say, sometimes it can take me only seconds to type a paragraph like this out, other times, its a 2-4 hour struggle just to express the little bit I posted here. .. Rayheno, I hope you feel at home here. .. I know I do, even though i'm not quite convinced there doesn't exist some greater being .
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