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Old 5th December 2012, 08:40 AM   #521
Dcdrac
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Again stop proejecting what YOU think Carl Sagan said and did not say.

He and many other scientists have carried out SCIENTIFIC research into the POSSIBIITY of Exterterestial life, and it has largely been prvatly funded not state funded.


Now have you actually read any of his books?
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:43 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Sorry to disappoint you. I am not a member of the Weekly World News.
Then why did you link to them?
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:44 AM   #523
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And the first solar sail was deployed by NASA in 2011

http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/nanosail_chat2.html

NASA is now one step closer to sailing among the stars! In a historic milestone on Jan. 21, 2011, NASA engineers confirmed that the NanoSail-D nanosatellite deployed its 100-square-foot polymer sail in low-Earth orbit and is operating as planned. The deployment was confirmed with beacon packets data received from NanoSail-D and additional ground-based satellite tracking assets.

Looks like NASA is way ahead of you

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...2011006130.pdf

Last edited by Dcdrac; 5th December 2012 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:48 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Get another mechanic. Why pay for a total analysis of the problem when all you only want it to have your car fixed and a mechanic who knows how to fix it. I am sure a scientist can also fix your car using his scientific method. How much are you willing to pay him to get it fixed.
The problem, which you'd realize if you thought about it for five seconds, is that sometimes neither you nor the mechanic knows what the problem IS. The SM is a method of discovering the unknown. If there's an obvious problem, yeah, no need to go through the SM--my dome light is busted in my car, and it's fairly obvious (it's sitting in the back seat for one thing). But if my car won't start, how do you fix it? Most people--my wife included--think it's the battery, the alternator, I didn't put gas in it, that type of thing. I saw an ignition cylender go bad once, which was only obvious after we'd removed it. But none of those were the issue for my car when it died. It required a fair bit of research and experimentation to figure out what was going on, because it was an unknown.

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm
...remembering as you continue the experiment to always keep in the back of your mind the nagging suspicion that the test battery was also dead.
My family learned early on to side-step THAT issue. We hook the battery up to something (usually another car, but sometimes a tool, and once a wrench [I don't recommend it]). We know the thing works with the old battery, so if it doesn't work with the new one the battery is the problem.

That's an example of a particular twist on the SM called Strong Inferrence. You establish mutually-exclusive working hypotheses and devise a test that will disprove one. H1=the battery works. H2=the battery is fried. The test is hooking it up to something you know works. If the thing works, H2 is disproven. If not, H1 is.

Originally Posted by Evolved Wookie
A dictionary does NOT define the only and correct use of language, it reflects the proper use of words.
It's actually even worse than that. The majority of dictionaries don't actually attempt to define jargon; they define commonly-used terms. If you look up "character" in any common dictionary you won't find "a trait or feature of an organism used in cladistic analysis". I've looked in enough to be fairly confident in that statement. And this discussion includes a great deal of jargon, despite the fact that it doesn't look that way. The scientific method means something different to scientists than to non-scientists, and dictionaries simply won't include that because there aren't enough scientists to make our definition common.

Originally Posted by StankApe
I get the impression that he thinks the scientific method can't be accomplished without lab coats, flasks,beakers and lots of colorful fluids and smoke.
I call it physics envy. People have this view that physics is science as such, and everything needs to comply with the way physics is done. A fantastic application of the scientific method is making a geological map, but it takes forever for people to realize that--they don't think hiking and drawing and coloring are science.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:50 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Again stop proejecting what YOU think Carl Sagan said and did not say.

He and many other scientists have carried out SCIENTIFIC research into the POSSIBIITY of Exterterestial life, and it has largely been prvatly funded not state funded.


Now have you actually read any of his books?
No I have not read any of his books. I just stated I am not interested in UFOs or ETI or aliens or ghost or religion or the superstitions he considers irrational beliefs. I was way ahead of him. I did not suffer his obsessions. Not because I was skeptical. It was because I was rational and that made the difference.

But I read a lot of biographical material for my research.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:50 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I haven't been long enough on this site to grade it. But I can say Skeptics appear to like what I am saying because they are responding to my posts with feverish enthusiasm even when they disagree with me. Maybe it is because I think out of the box and Skeptics are craving for some original ideas.

I don't believe in UFOs and I don't believe in Carl Sagan or his ETI. There are better ways to spend research grants and better research projects than looking of smarter people millions of miles away.

It is only insecure people that look for intelligence in other beings. And it is strange, that is how I described skeptics.
<snip>

How odd to contrast this:
"I don't believe in UFOs and I don't believe in Carl Sagan or his ETI. There are better ways to spend research grants and better research projects than looking of smarter people millions of miles away"

with this:
Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Where Carl Sagan failed my ideas will succeed. If aliens won't come to us, we will go to them.
It is also funny to see you act so insecure, and so desperate for attention, while you pretend that skeptics are insecure, and emit "fear signals".

Do you ever read your own stuff?

BTW: Do you ever intend to provide the sources for what you claim are accurate quotes about Dr. Sagan? Because, as you know, the accuracy of your sources has been demonstrably spotty, even just on this forum...
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Last edited by LashL; 5th December 2012 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Edited incorrect user name
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:52 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
No I have not read any of his books. I just stated I am not interested in UFOs or ETI or aliens or ghost or religion or the superstitions he considers irrational beliefs. I was way ahead of him. I did not suffer his obsessions. Not because I was skeptical. It was because I was rational and that made the difference.

But I read a lot of biographical material for my research.
Game, set, match.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:53 AM   #528
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Carl sagan did not beleive in ghosts, or UFOs either in his professianal Adult life.

He may have done in his youth, I certainly did when I was a teenager and when I reached adulthood turned my back on that rubbish just like Carl sagan did.

You would know that if you read his books instead of projecting your views onto him.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:53 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
And the first solar sail was deployed by NASA in 2011

http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/nanosail_chat2.html

NASA is now one step closer to sailing among the stars! In a historic milestone on Jan. 21, 2011, NASA engineers confirmed that the NanoSail-D nanosatellite deployed its 100-square-foot polymer sail in low-Earth orbit and is operating as planned. The deployment was confirmed with beacon packets data received from NanoSail-D and additional ground-based satellite tracking assets.

Looks like NASA is way ahead of you

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...2011006130.pdf
I won't be satisfied till we get intergalactic travel. And this is one way to pressure NASA. Make those demands in public.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:57 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I read a lot of biographical material for my research.
Which biographical material?
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:06 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Carl sagan did not beleive in ghosts, or UFOs either in his professianal Adult life.

He may have done in his youth, I certainly did when I was a teenager and when I reached adulthood turned my back on that rubbish just like Carl sagan did.

You would know that if you read his books instead of projecting your views onto him.
I did not read his books because they were on subjects I had no interest in. He came across to me as a salesman. In fact he was recognized for that talent in the scientific community.

Quote:
Carl Sagan was probably the best salesman science ever had
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:06 AM   #532
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JT you have not read any of Carl Sagan's books or works so you actually know nothing about his views and work you are not qulaified to comment on his life and work.


And if you are hoping for interglactic travel its not happening in your lifetime nor mine so do not hold your breath.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:09 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Which biographical material?
Just google "Carl Sagan biography" and you will get a handful. It is not that difficult.

Last edited by justintime; 5th December 2012 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:09 AM   #534
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Before you knock a man and claim you know what his views are you should at least familiarise yourself with their actual writings and works, before you even try to pass jsudgement.

Start here:

Intelligent Life in the Universe (1966) (with L S Shklovskii)
Planets (1966) (with Jonathan Norton Leonard)
The Cosmic Connection: An Extraterrestrail Perspective (1973)
Communicaton with Extraterrestrial Intelligence (1973)
Other Worlds (1975)
The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence (1977)
Broca's Brain: The Romance of Science (1979)
Cosmos: The Story of Cosmic Evolution, Science and Civilization (1980) (with Gentry Lee)
Murmurs of Earth: The Voyager Interstellar Record (1983)
Comet (1985) (with Ann Druyan)
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (1992) (with Ann Druyan)
Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space (1994)
The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1995)
Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (1997)
The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God (2006)

Last edited by Dcdrac; 5th December 2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:11 AM   #535
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Double post sorry

Last edited by Dcdrac; 5th December 2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:19 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Before you knock a man abd clain you know what his views are you should at least familairsie yourself with their actual writings and works, before you even try to pass jsudgement.

Start here:

Intelligent Life in the Universe (1966) (with L S Shklovskii)
Planets (1966) (with Jonathan Norton Leonard)
The Cosmic Connection: An Extraterrestrail Perspective (1973)
Communicaton with Extraterrestrial Intelligence (1973)
Other Worlds (1975)
The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence (1977)
Broca's Brain: The Romance of Science (1979)
Cosmos: The Story of Cosmic Evolution, Science and Civilization (1980) (with Gentry Lee)
Murmurs of Earth: The Voyager Interstellar Record (1983)
Comet (1985) (with Ann Druyan)
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (1992) (with Ann Druyan)
Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space (1994)
The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1995)
Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (1997)
The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God (2006)
I was already familiar with all the stuff he wrote about. Religion, UFOs, Ghosts, Aliens etc. I was only interested in him as a skeptic and what he did to back that claim. His attacks on religion, UFOs and Ghosts are not new. It is only new on Skeptic forums. Those arguments have been around for a very long time. I am happy I did not read any of them because they were not literary best sellers just popular reading.

There comes a time when you have to ask. Show me the beef? Where are the ETI?
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:25 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
The rated speed is 100,000 MPH. One light year is 5,879,000,000,000
So do the math. It is roughly 6711 years. Because it is solar powered it can travel large distances. They might have to be launched closer to the destination if you are in a hurry.
Now, there's quite the trick, and here we've been missing it all along, when it was a plain as the nose on our faces.
Takes too long to get from LA to NYC? Well, start in Chicago instead of LA!
Brilliant!
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I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:41 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I was already familiar with all the stuff he wrote about. Religion, UFOs, Ghosts, Aliens etc. I was only interested in him as a skeptic and what he did to back that claim. His attacks on religion, UFOs and Ghosts are not new. It is only new on Skeptic forums. Those arguments have been around for a very long time. I am happy I did not read any of them because they were not literary best sellers just popular reading.

There comes a time when you have to ask. Show me the beef? Where are the ETI?
You have stated you ahve not read hos books therefore you knwo nothing about the man nor his views other than second hand information, that is not good enough.

Carl Sagan never in his adult professional life claimed that aliens and ETI absolutly exist as a FACT, he did argue for the POSSIBIITY of their existance and set out as did many others to try to find evidence, he died before he could finsih his search, and it ws not his CORE work just one part of many strands.

But you do not knwo that as you have not even had the basic courtesy to read his books and works academic and non academic before condeming him.

You might want to read this:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/carl_s...er_and_skeptic

Sagan was a founding member of the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:48 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'd love to believe in the paranormal, an afterlife, all sorts of things, but I don't because there's no evidence for them.

Sceptics have the same human needs as everyone else but they make a conscious effort to recognise and allow for their own biases in order to find out what's really true. It's hard, and we all fail occasionally, but at least we try.
I raised the same questions. If Skeptics as many claim apply critical thinking and adhere to credible evidence directed scrutiny, should this then lead to conclusions different from those who do not apply such processes.

The answer was found in What is Skepticism:
http://skeptoid.com/skeptic.php

Quote:
It's thus inaccurate to say "Skeptics don't believe in ghosts." Some do. Many skeptics are deeply religious, and are satisfied with the reasoning process that led them there.
In short Skeptics also end up believing in Ghosts and religion. So those processes Skeptics think they are applying is not as reliable as they are making it out to be.

Emanuel Kant said. "We believe in things that are useful to us."

Id rather a man took up religion because it helped him avoid a life of crime than the same man starts believing he is from a monkey, therefor quite helpless to avoid his criminal behavior.

Or the man wants to be the fastest tree climber where believing he is from a monkey might actually help him psychologically.

Quote:
"Man believes in things because it is useful to him.

Last edited by justintime; 5th December 2012 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:56 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post

There comes a time when you have to ask. Show me the beef? Where are the ETI?
We don't know that there are any. Sagan never claimed there were.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:00 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
What method do you claim that a mechanic should use to discover which of the multiple ways in which a car can fail is the reason your car won't start?

9th graders get this. Why don't you?
True mechanics are born knowing what the problem is.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:01 AM   #542
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ON THE VIEW OF EARTH FROM 3.7 BILLION MILES AWAY AS A PALE BLUE DOT:

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home, That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. ... There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

-"You Are Here," Pale Blue Dot, pp. 8-9.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:02 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
If Skeptics as many claim apply critical thinking and adhere to credible evidence directed scrutiny, should this then lead to conclusions different from those who do not apply such processes.
It usually does. This is why few sceptics know so little about evolution that they think that anybody believes "he is from a monkey".

Here's an idea, rather than making these sweeping generalisations on subjects that you evidently know very little about, why don't you try picking up a book and educating yourself? You'll be amazed at what a difference it can make. Even just learning a little about what you're trying to discuss would be a start.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:03 AM   #544
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ON THE VIEW OF EARTH FROM 3.7 BILLION MILES AWAY AS A PALE BLUE DOT:

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home, That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. ... There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

-"You Are Here," Pale Blue Dot, pp. 8-9.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:08 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I was already familiar with all the stuff he wrote about. Religion, UFOs, Ghosts, Aliens etc. I was only interested in him as a skeptic and what he did to back that claim. His attacks on religion, UFOs and Ghosts are not new. It is only new on Skeptic forums. Those arguments have been around for a very long time. I am happy I did not read any of them because they were not literary best sellers just popular reading.

There comes a time when you have to ask. Show me the beef? Where are the ETI?

The highlighted text is odd, becfause you claim never to have read Dr. Sagan's work.
Depending upon secondary sources, when the primary sources are reaily available, is as dishonest as quote-mining; as dishonest as pretending a quote is from a provided source when it is not; as dishonest as presenting a quotation without a citation or source.

Nice trifecta.

The problem with spin-doctoring the life work of someone like Dr. Sagan on a forum full of scientifically literate rational people is that many here have, in fact, read Dr. Sagan's actual words, nor the slurs of his detractors. Your "arguments" are not new; they are simply false. It is to be hop;ed you are not this careless with your other superstitions unsupported beliefs...

Do you plan to provide sources for your quotes above? Or are you content with dishonesty?
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:23 AM   #546
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http://www.csicop.org/si/show/does_t..._civilization/

Does Truth Matter? Science, Pseudoscience, and Civilization

Volume 20.2, March / April 1996
Carl Sagan

Science has beauty, power, and majesty that can provide spiritual as well as practical fulfillment. But superstition and pseudoscience keep getting in the way providing easy answers, casually pressing our awe buttons, and cheapening the experience.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:42 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I haven't been long enough on this site to grade it. But I can say Skeptics appear to like what I am saying because they are responding to my posts with feverish enthusiasm even when they disagree with me. Maybe it is because I think out of the box and Skeptics are craving for some original ideas.

I don't believe in UFOs and I don't believe in Carl Sagan or his ETI. There are better ways to spend research grants and better research projects than looking of smarter people millions of miles away.

It is only insecure people that look for intelligence in other beings. And it is strange, that is how I described skeptics.
There was a point where I thought you might be well intentioned. Apparently I was mistaken.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:59 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I haven't been long enough on this site to grade it. But I can say Skeptics appear to like what I am saying because they are responding to my posts with feverish enthusiasm even when they disagree with me. Maybe it is because I think out of the box and Skeptics are craving for some original ideas.
No, no, no... No... God, no.

Tell you what, do a search for DavidJayJordan and peruse some of his threads. See how active they were.

I thought that the belief that thread traffic somehow positively correlated with the quality of the arguments presented by the OP was unique to DOC. Seriously, go type "stupid stunt" into the Youtube search engine and see how many views some of those videos have attracted.

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I don't believe in UFOs and I don't believe in Carl Sagan or his ETI.
I can assure you that Carl Sagan really existed.

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There are better ways to spend research grants and better research projects than looking of smarter people millions of miles away.
Millions? you really don't have a clue how big the universe is, do you? The nearest star to Sol is around 25 trillion miles away.

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It is only insecure people that look for intelligence in other beings. And it is strange, that is how I described skeptics.
That is absolutely one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:08 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Intergalactic, planetary, planetary, intergalactic.

All much the same thing, isn't it?
Absolutely, and having just safely traversed an inch deep puddle I am eagerly awaiting my 'Next Generation Wellingtons' that will allow me to walk across the Atlantic!
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:08 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Today after 50 years of SETI. The number of planets scientist think are capable is reduced to a little over hundred tops.
Ready to retract this false statement yet?
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:12 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
That is absolutely one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
He is consistent, you've got to give him that.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:28 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Not because I was skeptical. It was because I was rational and that made the difference.
Could you explain how you can be rational without being skeptical?

If someone came to you and claimed to have discovered the cure for cancer in the back of his refrigerator, would you believe him without question, or would you ask to see evidence to support his claim? If you say "I would reserve judgment regarding the claim until I'd seen some evidence of its veracity", then you are a skeptic. If you are not a skeptic, then you might say something like, "Wonderful! Here's all my life savings to invest in your company".

You clearly did a quick Google search for the word "epistemology" after seeing it in one of my earlier posts, then used it without any real understanding of what it means. This is transparently obvious because the above statement shows a gross lack of knowledge of a simple epistemological concept. It's as though you overheard someone working on a '62 Chevrolet pickup talking about replacing and gapping the points and re-jetting the carburetor, then walked over to someone working on a 2011 Honda Accord and told him, "Be sure to replace and gap the points and re-jet the carburetor". You clearly don't know what "skeptic" or "rational" mean.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:30 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Today after 50 years of SETI. The number of planets scientist think are capable is reduced to a little over hundred tops.
Source, please.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:32 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
You clearly don't know what "skeptic" or "rational" mean.
Among other things. So far we have: fiction, hypocrisy, skeptic, rational, obsession.
I feel I've missed one...
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:32 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I understand the frustrations you guys are going through. I too am disappointed he was so wrong and no ETI were found. But we should not be apologizing for him. He made a lot of money by getting in on a hot idea and marketing it.

When his search was turning futile he even began to interview alien abductees to keep the interest alive and stay in the public eye. But he was careful to discredit them so his funding would not be affected.

There is only so much the public will take after years of watching a blank screen on a monitor supposed to contact ETI with radio signals and hope they signal back. Not a blimp on the screen for 50 years.

He said many things in his lifetime. But is known mainly for his "billions and billions" and SETI. and his serious fascination with aliens.

I used to watch Cosmos but stopped when he started talking about Extraterrestrial intelligent. It was bad enough we have UFO whack whacks but to have to listen to his nonsense was a bit much.

Maybe I missed something. But it sure wasn't ETI.
You appear to be very good at quoting things that you cannot back up with reliable sources.

And as far as SETI goes, and its failure so far to pick up signals from extra-terrestrials for 50 years, well, I think it shows that you have no understanding of what is involved. I'm guessing you think they just point some dishes towards the sky and listen? Well, it is a LOT more complicated than that. They listen almost exclusively in one, narrow band of frequencies (bracketing the 1421 mHz hydrogen line and the 1650 MHz by hydroxyl ion line), in one direction defined by a width of only a few minutes of arc. Yes, there are wide field searches done too, but these are far less likely to pick up signals because they are low-resolution searches

In point of fact, if you were a member of a SETI program run by an intelligent species living on a planet circling Alpha Centauri, and you pointed your dish at us and listened on that frequency, the chances are that you would hear nothing, because we don't happen to broadcast anything on 1421 mHz powerful enough to be heard that far away.

SETI isn't listening for incidental broadcasts of alien TV or Radio signals. Those are too weak to be detected because they fall into the noisy cosmic background within a far less distance than that to the nearest star, they are listening for ET's broadcasting signals in our general direction. Those signals would have to be hugely powerful for us to receive them.

Another point about the 50 years, well, how long have physicists been looking for a unified field theory and how long have they been trying to explain the origin of the Universe.....about a hundred years, While we are a lot closer than we were, we aren't there yet, but there is no sign of them giving up.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:34 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
Among other things. So far we have: fiction, hypocrisy, skeptic, rational, obsession.
I feel I've missed one...
The meaning of "if" and "might" seem to escape him as well.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:41 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I did not read his books because they were on subjects I had no interest in. He came across to me as a salesman. In fact he was recognized for that talent in the scientific community.
"Carl Sagan was probably the best salesman science ever had."

That comes from here. Did you think that by excluding the source that we wouldn't discover that these are the words of a single person who isn't even identified as a scientist, or were you just being sloppy? And it is clear that the author is talking about Carl Sagan as a popularizer of science, as someone who was dedicated to making science accessible to everyone.

Sorry, but your sloppy cherry-picking doesn't support your assertion.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:42 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Today after 50 years of SETI. The number of planets scientist think are capable is reduced to a little over hundred tops.
You dreamed that up out of your head, and its completely wrong by a factor of about 107

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...illion-earths/
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:45 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
ahead of NASA eh?

design me a spacecraft capable of traveling to Venus and back (with applicable flight path trajectories and burn times)

I'll give you a few days (and no high detail blueprints required, just a rough sketch with applicable notes)

I'll give you part of the answer:

A six second course correction burn at T+68:15:24:35-41.

The rest you're going to have to figure out on your own.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:48 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I was already familiar with all the stuff he wrote about. Religion, UFOs, Ghosts, Aliens etc. I was only interested in him as a skeptic and what he did to back that claim. His attacks on religion, UFOs and Ghosts are not new. It is only new on Skeptic forums. Those arguments have been around for a very long time.
Ii is clear that you haven't read Sagan, or you would know that he never attacked religion, UFO claims or ghosts. He simply doubted them.

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I am happy I did not read any of them because they were not literary best sellers just popular reading.
It's sad to see someone so defiantly proud of his own ignorance.

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There comes a time when you have to ask. Show me the beef? Where are the ETI?
We don't know. They may not be out there. They may not be using technology we can detect. They may be too far away. They may be where we haven't looked yet. Remember that analogy about looking for a ring on a football field and only having searched a few square yards so far? The ring may not be there, but looking for 30 seconds and then declaring it is not there is the act of a fool.
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