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5th December 2012, 08:40 AM | #521 |
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Again stop proejecting what YOU think Carl Sagan said and did not say.
He and many other scientists have carried out SCIENTIFIC research into the POSSIBIITY of Exterterestial life, and it has largely been prvatly funded not state funded. Now have you actually read any of his books? |
5th December 2012, 08:43 AM | #522 |
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5th December 2012, 08:44 AM | #523 |
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And the first solar sail was deployed by NASA in 2011
http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/nanosail_chat2.html NASA is now one step closer to sailing among the stars! In a historic milestone on Jan. 21, 2011, NASA engineers confirmed that the NanoSail-D nanosatellite deployed its 100-square-foot polymer sail in low-Earth orbit and is operating as planned. The deployment was confirmed with beacon packets data received from NanoSail-D and additional ground-based satellite tracking assets. Looks like NASA is way ahead of you http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...2011006130.pdf |
5th December 2012, 08:48 AM | #524 |
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The problem, which you'd realize if you thought about it for five seconds, is that sometimes neither you nor the mechanic knows what the problem IS. The SM is a method of discovering the unknown. If there's an obvious problem, yeah, no need to go through the SM--my dome light is busted in my car, and it's fairly obvious (it's sitting in the back seat for one thing). But if my car won't start, how do you fix it? Most people--my wife included--think it's the battery, the alternator, I didn't put gas in it, that type of thing. I saw an ignition cylender go bad once, which was only obvious after we'd removed it. But none of those were the issue for my car when it died. It required a fair bit of research and experimentation to figure out what was going on, because it was an unknown.
Originally Posted by aggle-rithm
That's an example of a particular twist on the SM called Strong Inferrence. You establish mutually-exclusive working hypotheses and devise a test that will disprove one. H1=the battery works. H2=the battery is fried. The test is hooking it up to something you know works. If the thing works, H2 is disproven. If not, H1 is.
Originally Posted by Evolved Wookie
Originally Posted by StankApe
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5th December 2012, 08:50 AM | #525 |
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No I have not read any of his books. I just stated I am not interested in UFOs or ETI or aliens or ghost or religion or the superstitions he considers irrational beliefs. I was way ahead of him. I did not suffer his obsessions. Not because I was skeptical. It was because I was rational and that made the difference.
But I read a lot of biographical material for my research. |
5th December 2012, 08:50 AM | #526 |
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<snip>
How odd to contrast this: "I don't believe in UFOs and I don't believe in Carl Sagan or his ETI. There are better ways to spend research grants and better research projects than looking of smarter people millions of miles away" with this: It is also funny to see you act so insecure, and so desperate for attention, while you pretend that skeptics are insecure, and emit "fear signals". Do you ever read your own stuff? BTW: Do you ever intend to provide the sources for what you claim are accurate quotes about Dr. Sagan? Because, as you know, the accuracy of your sources has been demonstrably spotty, even just on this forum... |
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5th December 2012, 08:52 AM | #527 |
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5th December 2012, 08:53 AM | #528 |
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Carl sagan did not beleive in ghosts, or UFOs either in his professianal Adult life.
He may have done in his youth, I certainly did when I was a teenager and when I reached adulthood turned my back on that rubbish just like Carl sagan did. You would know that if you read his books instead of projecting your views onto him. |
5th December 2012, 08:53 AM | #529 |
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5th December 2012, 08:57 AM | #530 |
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5th December 2012, 09:06 AM | #531 |
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5th December 2012, 09:06 AM | #532 |
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JT you have not read any of Carl Sagan's books or works so you actually know nothing about his views and work you are not qulaified to comment on his life and work.
And if you are hoping for interglactic travel its not happening in your lifetime nor mine so do not hold your breath. |
5th December 2012, 09:09 AM | #533 |
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5th December 2012, 09:09 AM | #534 |
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Before you knock a man and claim you know what his views are you should at least familiarise yourself with their actual writings and works, before you even try to pass jsudgement.
Start here: Intelligent Life in the Universe (1966) (with L S Shklovskii) Planets (1966) (with Jonathan Norton Leonard) The Cosmic Connection: An Extraterrestrail Perspective (1973) Communicaton with Extraterrestrial Intelligence (1973) Other Worlds (1975) The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence (1977) Broca's Brain: The Romance of Science (1979) Cosmos: The Story of Cosmic Evolution, Science and Civilization (1980) (with Gentry Lee) Murmurs of Earth: The Voyager Interstellar Record (1983) Comet (1985) (with Ann Druyan) Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (1992) (with Ann Druyan) Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space (1994) The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1995) Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (1997) The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God (2006) |
5th December 2012, 09:11 AM | #535 |
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Double post sorry
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5th December 2012, 09:19 AM | #536 |
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I was already familiar with all the stuff he wrote about. Religion, UFOs, Ghosts, Aliens etc. I was only interested in him as a skeptic and what he did to back that claim. His attacks on religion, UFOs and Ghosts are not new. It is only new on Skeptic forums. Those arguments have been around for a very long time. I am happy I did not read any of them because they were not literary best sellers just popular reading.
There comes a time when you have to ask. Show me the beef? Where are the ETI? |
5th December 2012, 09:25 AM | #537 |
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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5th December 2012, 09:41 AM | #538 |
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You have stated you ahve not read hos books therefore you knwo nothing about the man nor his views other than second hand information, that is not good enough.
Carl Sagan never in his adult professional life claimed that aliens and ETI absolutly exist as a FACT, he did argue for the POSSIBIITY of their existance and set out as did many others to try to find evidence, he died before he could finsih his search, and it ws not his CORE work just one part of many strands. But you do not knwo that as you have not even had the basic courtesy to read his books and works academic and non academic before condeming him. You might want to read this: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/carl_s...er_and_skeptic Sagan was a founding member of the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. |
5th December 2012, 09:48 AM | #539 |
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I raised the same questions. If Skeptics as many claim apply critical thinking and adhere to credible evidence directed scrutiny, should this then lead to conclusions different from those who do not apply such processes.
The answer was found in What is Skepticism: http://skeptoid.com/skeptic.php
Quote:
Emanuel Kant said. "We believe in things that are useful to us." Id rather a man took up religion because it helped him avoid a life of crime than the same man starts believing he is from a monkey, therefor quite helpless to avoid his criminal behavior. Or the man wants to be the fastest tree climber where believing he is from a monkey might actually help him psychologically.
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5th December 2012, 09:56 AM | #540 |
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5th December 2012, 10:00 AM | #541 |
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5th December 2012, 10:01 AM | #542 |
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ON THE VIEW OF EARTH FROM 3.7 BILLION MILES AWAY AS A PALE BLUE DOT:
"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home, That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. ... There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known." -"You Are Here," Pale Blue Dot, pp. 8-9. |
5th December 2012, 10:02 AM | #543 |
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It usually does. This is why few sceptics know so little about evolution that they think that anybody believes "he is from a monkey".
Here's an idea, rather than making these sweeping generalisations on subjects that you evidently know very little about, why don't you try picking up a book and educating yourself? You'll be amazed at what a difference it can make. Even just learning a little about what you're trying to discuss would be a start. |
5th December 2012, 10:03 AM | #544 |
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ON THE VIEW OF EARTH FROM 3.7 BILLION MILES AWAY AS A PALE BLUE DOT:
"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home, That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. ... There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known." -"You Are Here," Pale Blue Dot, pp. 8-9. |
5th December 2012, 10:08 AM | #545 |
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The highlighted text is odd, becfause you claim never to have read Dr. Sagan's work. Depending upon secondary sources, when the primary sources are reaily available, is as dishonest as quote-mining; as dishonest as pretending a quote is from a provided source when it is not; as dishonest as presenting a quotation without a citation or source. Nice trifecta. The problem with spin-doctoring the life work of someone like Dr. Sagan on a forum full of scientifically literate rational people is that many here have, in fact, read Dr. Sagan's actual words, nor the slurs of his detractors. Your "arguments" are not new; they are simply false. It is to be hop;ed you are not this careless with your other Do you plan to provide sources for your quotes above? Or are you content with dishonesty? |
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5th December 2012, 10:23 AM | #546 |
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http://www.csicop.org/si/show/does_t..._civilization/
Does Truth Matter? Science, Pseudoscience, and Civilization Volume 20.2, March / April 1996 Carl Sagan Science has beauty, power, and majesty that can provide spiritual as well as practical fulfillment. But superstition and pseudoscience keep getting in the way providing easy answers, casually pressing our awe buttons, and cheapening the experience. |
5th December 2012, 10:42 AM | #547 |
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5th December 2012, 10:59 AM | #548 |
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No, no, no... No... God, no.
Tell you what, do a search for DavidJayJordan and peruse some of his threads. See how active they were. I thought that the belief that thread traffic somehow positively correlated with the quality of the arguments presented by the OP was unique to DOC. Seriously, go type "stupid stunt" into the Youtube search engine and see how many views some of those videos have attracted.
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5th December 2012, 11:08 AM | #549 |
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5th December 2012, 11:08 AM | #550 |
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5th December 2012, 11:12 AM | #551 |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th December 2012, 11:28 AM | #552 |
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Could you explain how you can be rational without being skeptical?
If someone came to you and claimed to have discovered the cure for cancer in the back of his refrigerator, would you believe him without question, or would you ask to see evidence to support his claim? If you say "I would reserve judgment regarding the claim until I'd seen some evidence of its veracity", then you are a skeptic. If you are not a skeptic, then you might say something like, "Wonderful! Here's all my life savings to invest in your company". You clearly did a quick Google search for the word "epistemology" after seeing it in one of my earlier posts, then used it without any real understanding of what it means. This is transparently obvious because the above statement shows a gross lack of knowledge of a simple epistemological concept. It's as though you overheard someone working on a '62 Chevrolet pickup talking about replacing and gapping the points and re-jetting the carburetor, then walked over to someone working on a 2011 Honda Accord and told him, "Be sure to replace and gap the points and re-jet the carburetor". You clearly don't know what "skeptic" or "rational" mean. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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5th December 2012, 11:30 AM | #553 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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5th December 2012, 11:32 AM | #554 |
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5th December 2012, 11:32 AM | #555 |
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You appear to be very good at quoting things that you cannot back up with reliable sources.
And as far as SETI goes, and its failure so far to pick up signals from extra-terrestrials for 50 years, well, I think it shows that you have no understanding of what is involved. I'm guessing you think they just point some dishes towards the sky and listen? Well, it is a LOT more complicated than that. They listen almost exclusively in one, narrow band of frequencies (bracketing the 1421 mHz hydrogen line and the 1650 MHz by hydroxyl ion line), in one direction defined by a width of only a few minutes of arc. Yes, there are wide field searches done too, but these are far less likely to pick up signals because they are low-resolution searches In point of fact, if you were a member of a SETI program run by an intelligent species living on a planet circling Alpha Centauri, and you pointed your dish at us and listened on that frequency, the chances are that you would hear nothing, because we don't happen to broadcast anything on 1421 mHz powerful enough to be heard that far away. SETI isn't listening for incidental broadcasts of alien TV or Radio signals. Those are too weak to be detected because they fall into the noisy cosmic background within a far less distance than that to the nearest star, they are listening for ET's broadcasting signals in our general direction. Those signals would have to be hugely powerful for us to receive them. Another point about the 50 years, well, how long have physicists been looking for a unified field theory and how long have they been trying to explain the origin of the Universe.....about a hundred years, While we are a lot closer than we were, we aren't there yet, but there is no sign of them giving up. |
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5th December 2012, 11:34 AM | #556 |
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5th December 2012, 11:41 AM | #557 |
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"Carl Sagan was probably the best salesman science ever had."
That comes from here. Did you think that by excluding the source that we wouldn't discover that these are the words of a single person who isn't even identified as a scientist, or were you just being sloppy? And it is clear that the author is talking about Carl Sagan as a popularizer of science, as someone who was dedicated to making science accessible to everyone. Sorry, but your sloppy cherry-picking doesn't support your assertion. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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5th December 2012, 11:42 AM | #558 |
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You dreamed that up out of your head, and its completely wrong by a factor of about 107
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...illion-earths/ |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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5th December 2012, 11:45 AM | #559 |
I would save the receptionist.
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5th December 2012, 11:48 AM | #560 |
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Ii is clear that you haven't read Sagan, or you would know that he never attacked religion, UFO claims or ghosts. He simply doubted them.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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