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Old 6th December 2012, 12:19 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
Yes, the method written on it was something like, examine,diagnose,treat, prognosis.

Kind of a rudimentary scientific method as applied to medicine.
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Old 6th December 2012, 01:41 AM   #602
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Last edited by MikeG; 6th December 2012 at 01:43 AM. Reason: changed my mind........I can't be bothered
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Old 6th December 2012, 04:26 AM   #603
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So the OPs sum total of knowledge about Carl Sagan is stuff dredged up on the internet and not based on any reading of his books, or any first hand knowledge at all about his life and work.

How bogus can you get.....
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Old 6th December 2012, 07:41 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by booNyzarC View Post
I get the impression that you are well intentioned. You seem to be arguing for something you have strong convictions for, and I respect that.

Unfortunately, you've painted a picture of skeptics with a rather broad brush and as a result you've sacrificed accuracy in favor of generalizations. Yes there are participants on skeptical forums who match with your descriptions, if not always, at least some of the time. That in itself does not mean that all skeptics match these descriptions and I contend that the vast majority do not.

As well intentioned as your crusade may be, it is unlikely to bear fruit because the misdirected war you've waged is on the wrong enemy. To truly have an impact of the sort you're hoping for will require far more diligence and specificity than you're currently employing. You'll need to target and dismantle the arguments of individuals instead of lackadaisically poisoning the well. In doing so you can expose the weakness of cynicism, which is what I think you really want to do.

Even then you've got a hard road ahead of you if you want to be effective. Do yourself a favor though, and don't create enemies where there were none in the first place. Who knows, you may even come to appreciate some of the skeptical perspectives offered by many participants on forums like these.

Cheers.
I hope to be more diligent and provide more specificity to bring home my message. Why you might not be a Skeptic but a very insecure individual.

I begin with the best known Skeptic of our times Carl Sagan. He advocated scientific skepticism and denounced the irrational beliefs of those who were buried in superstitions. I am basing my research on Carl Sagans biographies and using his own words to support my conclusions. Your comments are welcomed.

Was Carl Sagan a Skeptic or just an insecure individual.

Quote:
From a biography: “Why is Carl Sagan so lonely?” asked the novelist Walker Percy. He answered that to Sagan, the cosmos was nothing but “matter in interaction, [and] there is no one left to talk to except other transcending intelligences from other worlds.”
Carl Sagan appears to have an inferiority complex. He believes as the quote suggest there are more transcending intelligence in other worlds.

Is that the only hint of his inferiority complex and insecurity in himself and the entire human race? We know he searched for Extraterrestrial intelligence through his SETI program which just celebrated its 50th Anniversary.

In his own words he describes just how tiny and insignificant we are in the vastness of the cosmos. How he believes there are older and wiser civilizations out there and justifies searching for them. He also holds in contempt human intelligence and the self destructive nature of man borne out of ignorance and misguided purpose. That we might be spared our self destruction by seeking those distant planets of older and wiser civilizations.
Space Engine: A Cosmic Voyage (Feat. Carl Sagan) in his own words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU0e_...ature=youtu.be

There is that possibility that Carl Sagan was truly a Skeptic and that might be true of many here. I have considered that as well and am working on my next OP. Why you might be a Skeptics and an insecure individual too.

Last edited by justintime; 6th December 2012 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 07:57 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
There is that possibility that Carl Sagan was truly a Skeptic and that might be true of many here. I have considered that as well and am working on my next OP. Why you might be a Skeptics and an insecure individual too.
Do you think it's wise to start another thread? You haven't adequately defended those you've already started, or your position in this one.
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Old 6th December 2012, 07:57 AM   #606
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Carl Sagan definitly was
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:03 AM   #607
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The Arecibo message sent by the Arecibo radio telescope in 1974

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1975Icar...26..462.

The Arecibo message of November, 1974
Icarus, vol. 26, Dec. 1975, p. 462-466.

On November 16, 1974, the Arecibo Observatory transmitted at 2380 MHz at an effective bandwidth of 10 Hz a message directed at the globular cluster M13. The message consists of a 1679-bit picture portraying a counting scheme, five biologically significant atoms (H, C, O, N, and P), the generic structure of the four purines and pyrimidine bases of DNA; a schematic of the DNA double helix with an order-of-magnitude estimate of the number of base pairs; a representation of a human being and his or her dimensions; a depiction of the solar system with an indication that human beings inhabit the third planet and an estimate of the human population of the earth; and finally, a schematic representation of the Arecibo Observatory and a description of its dimensions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...essage.svg.png
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:05 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I hope to be more diligent and provide more specificity to bring home my message. Why you might not be a Skeptic but a very insecure individual.

I begin with the best known Skeptic of our times Carl Sagan. He advocated scientific skepticism and denounced the irrational beliefs of those who were buried in superstitions. I am basing my research on Carl Sagans biographies and using his own words to support my conclusions. Your comments are welcomed.

Was Carl Sagan a Skeptic or just and insecure individual.



Carl Sagan appears to have an inferiority complex. He believes as the quote suggest there are more transcending intelligence in other worlds.

Is that the only hint of his inferiority complex and insecurity in himself and the entire human race? We know he searched for Extraterrestrial intelligence through his SETI program which just celebrated its 50th Anniversary.

In his own words he describes just how tiny and insignificant we are in the vastness of the cosmos. How he believes there are older and wiser civilizations out there and justifies searching for them. He also holds in contempt human intelligence and the self destructive nature of man borne out of ignorance and misguided purpose. That we might be spared our self destruction by seeking those distant planets of older and wiser civilizations.
Space Engine: A Cosmic Voyage (Feat. Carl Sagan) in his own words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU0e_...ature=youtu.be

There is that possibility that Carl Sagan was truly a Skeptic and that might be true of many here. I have considered that as well and am working on my next OP. Why you might be a Skeptics and an insecure individual too.
Two things:

1. You really ought to read Dr. Sagan's own writings before you pretend to be able to analyze, or criticize, what Dr. Sagan said...that way you do not look as if you are so insecure that you have to raise up a second-hand hearsay strawman imitation of him in order to be able to pretend to smite it...

2. As a clarification, in your opinion, are there differences among "being a Skeptic", "being a skeptic", "being skeptical", and "applying skeptical reasoning to scientific thought"? Or is this another place where you will deny nuance in order to escape the actual meaning of the things you say?
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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 6th December 2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:06 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
So the OPs sum total of knowledge about Carl Sagan is stuff dredged up on the internet and not based on any reading of his books, or any first hand knowledge at all about his life and work.

How bogus can you get.....
I relied not only on Carl Sagan's biographies but also researched what he actually said. He had several positions on UFOs and offered several explanations while making sure we all understood that only the credible evidence was lacking. Just as his SETI project was to look for ETI. It would be the evidence that would finally prove they exist. For all his billions and billions of possibilities and probabilities he still had to deliver the evidence for the billions or rational people and billions of believers (as in religious believers).

Michael Shermer cites only 55,000 skeptic subscribers for his Skeptics Magazine. Skeptic movement claims only 1 million skeptics. But there are billions of rational people and billions of believers (religious) who were not convinced Carl Sagan would find ETI and were proven right.

Carl Sagan on advanced civilizations visting Earth (Carl Sagan at one point suggest they might even be HERE and hiding).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcfCkUBsdc

Last edited by justintime; 6th December 2012 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:08 AM   #610
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Carl Sagan's main work and focus of his career WAS NOT the search for ETI, again you ignore this, his main focus was space exploration, ETI was jut one strand of his work and NOT the CORE one.

Ad again you ignore the fact thathe only ever saw it as a POSSIBILITY and NOT A FACT, he never stated it was proved fact during his professional life.

Last edited by Dcdrac; 6th December 2012 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:12 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
In his own words he describes just how tiny and insignificant we are in the vastness of the cosmos. How he believes there are older and wiser civilizations out there and justifies searching for them. He also holds in contempt human intelligence and the self destructive nature of man borne out of ignorance and misguided purpose. That we might be spared our self destruction by seeking those distant planets of older and wiser civilizations.
Space Engine: A Cosmic Voyage (Feat. Carl Sagan) in his own words.
I can categorically state that my penis is tiny and insignificant in the vastness of the cosmos. Doesn't make me insecure though.

All of the above and the rest of your post is completely irrelevant though because you can't use ONE person to draw conclusions about the group they belong to. That's not me telling you you can't, it's all the forces of logic and reason.

You can only continue your battle against these forces by moving further away from Right and deeper into the pit of Wrong.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:13 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I relied not only on Carl Sagan's biographies but also researched what he actually said. He had several positions on UFOs and offered several explanations while making sure we all understood that only the credible evidence was lacking. Just as his SETI project was to look for ETI. It would be the evidence that would finally prove they exist. For all his billions and billions of possibilities and probabilities he still had to deliver the evidence for the billions or rational people and billions of believers (as in religious believers).

Michael Shermer cites only 55,000 skeptic subscribers for his Skeptics Magazine. Skeptic movement claims only 1 million skeptics. But there are billions of rational people and billions of believers (religious) who were not convinced Carl Sagan would find ETI and were proven right.

Carl Sagan on advanced civilizations visting Earth (Carl Sagan at one point suggest they might even be HERE and hiding).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcfCkUBsdc
Perhaps a reading comprehension course would help you?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:18 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Carl Sagan's main work and focus of his career WAS NOT the search for ETI, again you ignore this, his main focus was space exploration, ETI was jut one strand of his work and NOT the CORE one.

Ad again you ignore the fact thathe only ever saw it as a POSSIBILITY and NOT A FACT, he never stated it was proved fact during his professional life.
From his biography.

Quote:
To the general public, he is mainly recalled as a television personality— in particular, as a suave commentator on the possibility of extraterrestrial life and on the robotic exploration of the solar system.

Last edited by justintime; 6th December 2012 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:22 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
"Despondent".
I'z despotent.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:23 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I relied not only on Carl Sagan's biographies but also researched what he actually said. He had several positions on UFOs and offered several explanations while making sure we all understood that only the credible evidence was lacking. Just as his SETI project was to look for ETI. It would be the evidence that would finally prove they exist. For all his billions and billions of possibilities and probabilities he still had to deliver the evidence for the billions or rational people and billions of believers (as in religious believers).

Michael Shermer cites only 55,000 skeptic subscribers for his Skeptics Magazine. Skeptic movement claims only 1 million skeptics. But there are billions of rational people and billions of believers (religious) who were not convinced Carl Sagan would find ETI and were proven right.

Carl Sagan on advanced civilizations visting Earth (Carl Sagan at one point suggest they might even be HERE and hiding).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcfCkUBsdc
How can the highlighted statement be harmonized with your statement that you have never read Dr. Sagans' work?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:23 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Ah. So your extensive knowledge of Sagan comes from a glance at Wikipedia.
While riding by on a galloping horse.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:27 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
There is that possibility that Carl Sagan was truly a Skeptic and that might be true of many here. I have considered that as well and am working on my next OP. Why you might be a Skeptics and an insecure individual too.
What makes you think that being insecure and sceptic is at most improbable? You seem annoyed to have found counterexamples preventing you to claim that it is impossible for those to coexist in the same person. What's your real point here? If "true" sceptics don't exist then evolution is a myth? The insecurity that makes you believe in a god is better than alleged Sagan's (which makes him believe in.... nothing)? Why?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:29 AM   #618
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Why don't you watch and enjoy the video. Why he constantly refers to ETI as advanced civilizations. What evidence did he have they even existed let alone they were intelligent? All his work was just based on conjectures. He was obsessed with flying saucers and aliens and attributed the same advanced technology to extraterrestrial beings.

Carl Sagan on advanced civilizations visting Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcfCkUBsdc
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:30 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
From his biography.
Do you see the words "possibility of" in what you just quoted?

Do you know what they mean?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:32 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
Perhaps a reading comprehension course would help you?


As a correspondence course?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:33 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Why don't you watch and enjoy the video. Why he constantly refers to ETI as advanced civilizations. What evidence did he have they even existed let alone they were intelligent?
None. And he never claimed they existed.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:35 AM   #622
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This broad cast was full of, IF, POSSIBLE, MAYBE, and NOT IS and ARE.

And there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE Aliens have visted here.

You missed that too.

He is speculating. not stating any facts.

You obviously did not listen to what he said.

Once again you have failed to misrepresent what Dr Sagan was acutally saying

Last edited by Dcdrac; 6th December 2012 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:35 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
While riding by on a galloping horse.
I researched his interviews, documentaries and biographies. He was a very public figure and was video taped extensively. His work is now a library of public record.

Last edited by justintime; 6th December 2012 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:36 AM   #624
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If this thread's just going to be talking about Sagan now, then should we ask the mods to merge them both?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:38 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
I researched his interviews, documentaries and biographies. He was a very public figure and was video taped extensively. He work is now a library of public record.
When researching, did you do any actual reading?

That might explain your comprehension issues.

Only here to help.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:41 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
This broad cast was full of, IF, POSSIBLE, MAYBE, and NOT IS and ARE.

You obviously did not listen to what he said.
Yes, that only proves Carl Sagan was never sure of anything and that comes across clearly in most of his videos. If you add all the IF, POSSIBLE, MAYBE, and NOT IS and ARE. You will understand why he struggled to articulate a true position even near the conclusion of his life.

This is why people are suspicious of scientist. They have more disclaimers than actual facts in their research.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:41 AM   #627
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Quote:
you really don't have a clue how big the universe is, do you?
Someone has to do it!

'"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space,"
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:41 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
He work is now a library of public record.
So why don't you read it?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:44 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
When researching, did you do any actual reading?

That might explain your comprehension issues.

Only here to help.
Next you will be saying my brilliant twin wrote all this. Get real.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:44 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Yes, that only proves Carl Sagan was never sure of anything and that comes across clearly in most of his videos.
That's what made him a skeptic.

Looks like you answered your question from the thread title. Carl Sagan was a skeptic.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:45 AM   #631
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Carl sagan never claimed he was absoultuly certain of everything he would have been a poor scientist if he did go around labouring under that delusion.

Now cease misrepresenting him in your ill judge and totally ignornace driven assessment of him.

You have stated you have not read any of his books so you do know nothing about him in real terms.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:45 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post

This is why people are suspicious of scientist. They have more disclaimers than actual facts in their research.
So it's not just Carl Segan and 'Skeptics' you have a problem with it's all scientists?
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:48 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
This broad cast was full of, IF, POSSIBLE, MAYBE, and NOT IS and ARE.

And there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE Aliens have visted here.

You missed that too.

He is speculating. not stating any facts.

You obviously did not listen to what he said.

Once again you have failed to misrepresent what Dr Sagan was acutally saying
I did not misrepresent what Carl Sagan said. I gave you the actual Carl Sagan video.
Here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcfCkUBsdc

Last edited by justintime; 6th December 2012 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:52 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
From his biography.
Quote:
To the general public, he is mainly recalled as a television personality— in particular, as a suave commentator on the possibility of extraterrestrial life and on the robotic exploration of the solar system.
I changed the highlighting to emphasize the relevant point: your cherry-picking of one statement of one facet of the popular impression of his work.

From his biography - as in the biography in his obituary from his final employer, Cornell University:
Originally Posted by Cornell University
Sagan has published more than 600 scientific papers and popular articles and is author, co-author or editor of more than 20 books, including The Dragons of Eden (1977), for which he won the Pulitzer Prize in 1978.

...At Cornell since 1968, Sagan received a bachelor's degree in 1955 and a master's degree in 1956, both in physics, and a doctorate in astronomy and astrophysics in 1960, all from the University of Chicago. He taught at Harvard University in the early 1960s before coming to Cornell, where he became a full professor in 1971.

Sagan played a leading role in NASA's Mariner, Viking, Voyager and Galileo expeditions to other planets. He has received NASA Medals for Exceptional Scientific Achievement and twice for Distinguished Public Service and the NASA Apollo Achievement Award.

His research has focused on topics such as the greenhouse effect on Venus; windblown dust as an explanation for the seasonal changes on Mars; organic aerosols on Titan, Saturn's moon; the long-term environmental consequences of nuclear war; and the origin of life on Earth. A pioneer in the field of exobiology, he continued to teach graduate and undergraduate students in courses in astronomy and space sciences and in critical thinking at Cornell.

The breadth of his interests were made evident in October 1994, at a Cornell-sponsored symposium in honor of Sagan's 60th birthday. The two-day event featured speakers in areas of planetary exploration, life in the cosmos, science education, public policy and government regulation of science and the environment -- all fields in which Sagan had worked or had a strong interest.

Sagan was the recipient of numerous of awards in addition to his NASA recognition. He has received 22 honorary degrees from American colleges and universities for his contributions to science, literature, education and the preservation of the environment and many awards for his work on the long-term consequences of nuclear war and reversing the nuclear arms race.

Among his other awards have been: the John F. Kennedy Astronautics Award of the American Astronautical Society; the Explorers Club 75th Anniversary Award; the Konstantin Tsiolkovsky Medal of the Soviet Cosmonauts Federation and the Masursky Award of the American Astronomical Society. He also was the recipient of the Public Welfare Medal, the highest award of the National Academy of Sciences, "for distinguished contributions in the application of science to the public welfare."

Sagan was elected chairman of the Division of Planetary Sciences of the American Astronomical Society, president of the Planetology Section of the American Geophysical Union and chairman of the Astronomy Section of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. For 12 years he was editor of Icarus, the leading professional journal devoted to planetary research.

He is co-founder of The Planetary Society, a 100,000-member organization and the largest space-interest group in the world. The society supports major research programs in the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence, the investigation of near-Earth asteroids and, with the French and Russian space agencies, the development and testing of balloon and mobile robotic exploration of Mars. Sagan also was Distinguished Visiting Scientist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California and was contributing editor of Parade magazine, where he published many articles about science and, most recently, about the disease that he has battled for the past two years.
Yes, this biography did mention SETI. Did you notice anything else in there? Anything at all? Hey, I'm envious too, but I don't need to trash the man in a transparently dishonest and incompetent way.

justintime, you have no idea what you're talking about, the sources to which you appeal regularly contradict you, you can't even put together a coherent argument. I've read most of this thread, and I get that you don't like Carl Sagan, which is a right you have vigorously exercised. You also have a right to make a fool of yourself, and you have made liberal use of that right as well with your parade of misrepresentations, straw men, ludicrously broken analogies, cherry-picking, and nearly innumerable errors of fact. My advice to you - my parting advice, mind you, because I don't feel like indulging you again - is not to pat yourself on the back for getting attention in this thread, because, as another poster once said, people aren't laughing with you. It's the other thing.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:56 AM   #635
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I did watch the video and in at NO POINT does he state that aiens, ETI exist as proved fact.

And I recall watching that clip the first time it was broadcast on TV well before youtube was ever thoguth up.

he never claimed in his professiaonl working life that they did, he only ever posited a possibility, he actually says in that clip and I have watched it, THERE IS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE ALIENS HAVE VISITED.

You have totally misunderstood what he was sying, you have no credible arguments based on anything he actually did do to back up your assertion.

Last edited by Dcdrac; 6th December 2012 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:56 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Next you will be saying my brilliant twin wrote all this.

Only if his brilliance is in some field unconnected with logic, science, history, and reading comprehension.
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Old 6th December 2012, 08:59 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Why don't you watch and enjoy the video.
As I have patiently explained to you before, (although perhaps not, as I think of it, on this forum), I do not like to watch videos for information. Above and beyond the fact that people speak so much more slowly than I read, there is a personal consideration...with the deterioration of my hearing, I find it impractical to set the volume of my computer high enough to for me to hear it--and at that volume, it is disturbing to my partner while my partner is working...not to mention being fuzzy and distorted (the audio, not my partner).
So, no thank you; I will read Dr, Sagan's words instead. Perhaps you know of a location where the transcript of the video might be found?

Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Why he constantly refers to ETI as advanced civilizations. What evidence did he have they even existed let alone they were intelligent?
The simple act of reading any of Dr., Sagan's explanations would demonstrate that the attribution of "advanced civilization" to extra-terrestrial intelligences that it would be possible for us to detect on Earth is due to the fact that a "primitive civilization" (such as Earth's) is capable of doing very little that is, in fact, detectable, or perceptible, at intergalactic distances.

We do not have "evidence" that extraterrestrial intelligences exist, which is why privately-funded organizations are looking for them. If we had hard evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences; if we knew they were there, we would not be looking for them, but trying to figure out how (and whether) to contact them.

Originally Posted by justintime View Post
All his work was just based on conjectures.
Not having read "(all) his work" (or, for that matter, according to your own report, any of his work, how do you think you know this?
Further, developing and investigating conjecture is a real, and vital, part of the nature of this enterprise we call "science" (along with, for instance, skeptical thought).

Originally Posted by justintime View Post
He was obsessed with flying saucers and aliens
It has been pointed out to you, patiently and repeatedly, that Dr, Sagan's interest in debunking unsupported tales of UFO visits" and "alien abductions", even coupled with his fascination with the possibility of the existence, somewhere in the universe, of intelligent life, does not constitute an "obsession". Might I ask why you persist in the straw-man characterization?
If you are of the unshakable opinion, in the face of contrary evidence, that Dr. Sagan's interest constituted an "obsession", consider phrasing it as such...an opinion. Your own opinion.

Originally Posted by justintime View Post
and attributed the same advanced technology to extraterrestrial beings.

Carl Sagan on advanced civilizations visting Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcfCkUBsdc
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:00 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So it's not just Carl Segan and 'Skeptics' you have a problem with it's all scientists?
Try to explain why so few scientists are employed.

Quote:
(February 2012) Scientists and engineers make up only about 5 percent of the U.S. labor force.

This is part of a series of PRB articles about the science and engineering workforce in the United States, funded by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Data for this article are based on the Population Reference Bureau's analysis of the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey.

Last edited by justintime; 6th December 2012 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:01 AM   #639
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Did Sagen kick his puppy or something?
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Old 6th December 2012, 09:02 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Someone has to do it!

'"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space,"
You are so totally nominated, you hoopy frood, you!
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