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Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
6th December 2012, 04:33 PM | #721 |
Illuminator
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6th December 2012, 04:37 PM | #722 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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6th December 2012, 04:43 PM | #723 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree. He more or less said that in the final episode of Cosmos. In talking about signal from space, he said...
"The beacon signal alone would be profoundly significant. It would mean that someone has learned to survive technological adolescence, that self-destruction is not inevitable; that we also, may have a future." "Such knowledge, it seems to me, might be worth a great price. Very likely, some new Champollion would go on to decode the main message using our interstellar Rosetta Stone, the common language of science and mathematics" "The receipt of an interstellar message would be one of the major events in human history, and the beginning of the deprovincialisation of our planet" This is not about Aliens saving us, this is about us saving ourselves, before its too late! |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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6th December 2012, 04:50 PM | #724 |
Philosopher
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JT once again you need correcting the CORE of Sagan's work WAS NOT the search for ETI.
IT WAS Space Exploration using probes, telescopes both radio and optical. What part of that do you not grasp? http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/people/p...ve&Code=SaganC In his role as a visiting scientist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Calif., Carl helped design and manage the Mariner 2 mission to Venus, the Mariner 9 and Viking 1 and Viking 2 trips to Mars, the Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 missions to the outer solar system and the Galileo mission to Jupiter. Carl's research helped to solve the mysteries of the high temperature of Venus (a massive greenhouse effect), the seasonal changes on Mars (windblown dust) and the reddish haze of Titan (complex organic molecules). |
6th December 2012, 05:07 PM | #725 |
Philosopher
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For those who actually want to know Carl Sagan here is the CSICOP Carl Sagan essay collection
http://www.csicop.org/specialcollect...an_collection/ |
6th December 2012, 05:16 PM | #726 |
Philosopher
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This was intersting as well:
http://humanists.net/pdhutcheon/huma...20Humanism.htm Carl Sagan was one of the greatest humanists who ever lived, although he seldom, if ever, used the term. He devoted his life to educating the public about science -- and to educating scientists about their responsibility for how scientific knowledge is used -- in an age when both were considered by the academic community to be inappropriate pursuits. He fought a long-term battle against the pseudoscience and anti-science that are spreading like a rot in modern culture. And, through his success in organizing physicists to communicate the message about the nature of the nuclear winter that would predictably result from the deployment of hydrogen bombs, Carl Sagan, more than any other one person, may have been responsible for the avoidance of nuclear war in our lifetime. |
6th December 2012, 05:28 PM | #727 |
Banned
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You HAVE lost. your arguments are being made fun of in a thread where we nominate people for the dumbest posts of the month.(and you ave 3 there already)
Dude, if you were any more clueless you wouldn't be able to walk!! You science is poor, your arguments convoluted and silly, your citations are false and your conclusions unmerited. You are a poor debater Mr Justintime. Remarkably poor.... (at least the other guy gave us lesbian death squads t laugh about) |
6th December 2012, 05:48 PM | #728 |
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Justin:
I know that you neither be so careless as to miss an honest question, nor so insecure as to dismiss the same, but you appear to have omitted an answer. In your post #427, you somehow mis-stated yourself, and failed to edit, because you said: Which in addition to being an undocumented, un-cited, unsupported quote, unfortunately makes it seem as if you have said some thing appallingly ignorant, as well as being incorrect. In my post #433, I asked, ...hoping to give you the opportunity to realize that you had, possibly, mis-spoken, and that your words did not, in fact, express your opinion (as has, charitably, occasionally been the case). Unfortunately, you must have missed my question, because I do not see where you answered it. Be so kind as to address the issue, if you would--do you actually think that the statistic you quoted means that only 5% of scientists can find employment? Is it, instead, that you realize the statistic you quoted means that, out of all the jobs in the US at this time, only 5% of them are actually jobs in what would be called, by the compiler of the statistics, jobs in science and/or engineering? I interestedly await your reply. |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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6th December 2012, 06:00 PM | #729 |
Penultimate Amazing
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double post.
Bad! |
6th December 2012, 06:07 PM | #730 |
Penultimate Amazing
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6th December 2012, 06:09 PM | #731 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Engaging with a proven liar and ego maniac is a waste of time
Bye, J-I-T... |
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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6th December 2012, 07:01 PM | #732 |
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---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000. |
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6th December 2012, 08:07 PM | #733 |
Muse
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6th December 2012, 08:53 PM | #734 |
Scholar
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Good luck to you. I'll probably not be wasting much more of my valuable time discussing things with you, but my hat is off to those who have the patience and energy to point out your numerous fallacies. I'll check in from time to time in the hopes that you'll eventually acknowledge how blatantly wrong you are about Sagan and skepticism in general, but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.
Take care of yourself and try not to get banned. Cheers. |
7th December 2012, 12:20 AM | #735 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, you are generating some "traffic" because you are an obvious troll. You are spouting mostly nonsense, and refuse to seriously address any arguments against it. You do not want to engage in any kind of serious discussion, because you are unable to, as you have proven again and again. Why don't you tell us more about your claim that UFOs visited the Mayans? |
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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7th December 2012, 01:24 AM | #736 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th December 2012, 01:27 AM | #737 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th December 2012, 01:34 AM | #738 |
a carbon based life-form
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7th December 2012, 01:39 AM | #739 |
a carbon based life-form
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7th December 2012, 01:42 AM | #740 |
a carbon based life-form
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7th December 2012, 01:48 AM | #741 |
Banned
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7th December 2012, 02:33 AM | #742 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Thanks for the link!
Just out of curiosity, are you writing a paper/thesis on the subject and arerecruiting research chimps? Only up to a point. Have you ever heard of the wash-wash scam? |
7th December 2012, 04:26 AM | #743 |
Illuminator
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7th December 2012, 05:18 AM | #744 |
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"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain. |
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7th December 2012, 05:36 AM | #745 |
Philosopher
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JT you have not read anything he wrote by your own admission so you know nothing about his written works and are therefore totally unqualified to comment on them.
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7th December 2012, 07:22 AM | #746 |
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Justintime's Theories on Skepticism
I think these non-scientist upcoming skeptics should be allowed to speak at skeptic conferences. They provide fresh insights not bound by the rigors of scientific discipline and allows the introduction of some creative thought to compliment their critical thinking.
Are they effective? In the grand scheme of things they are not even relevant. No science skeptic will convince the scientific community to abandon their research because of a skeptics skepticism. It has not worked with the god skeptics. People still continue to believe in their gods and follow their religion and in some regions of the world are actually increasing. Would it have helped if RW was scientifically literate? I ask the same question of skeptics on Skeptic Forums. The problem with skepticism is, it is not a position, it is a process (Dr Shermer). It appears the skeptics task is to dismantle claims not build them. That extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For example Climate Change are extraordinary claims and the scientist have provided extraordinary evidence collected over a long period. So all the skeptic can do is deny it. Another example. Carl Sagan a scientist spent his entire life looking for extraterrestrial intelligent life. He had a scientific background/discipline and was applauded by the scientific community A non-scientist would have a problem speaking against his irrational belief that ETI could be found when every UFO and alien encounters have been discredited. 50 years later ETI has yet to be found. But ironically skeptics today believe Sagan was justified in his search and his reasons for searching for them were scientifically credible. In fact they even believe his claim he was a skeptic. Skeptics in the grand scheme of things are hardly relevant. No science skeptic will convince the scientific community to abandon their research because of a skeptics skepticism. Carl Sagan proved that to himself and to others. |
7th December 2012, 07:39 AM | #747 |
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That is factually incorrect Carl sagan DID NOT spend his entire working life looking for aliens.
For those that prefer to know the reality of Carl Sagan's life and work please read here: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/carl_s...er_and_skeptic And skeptism tends to employ scientific method any attempt to state that some how science based skeptics and scientists in general miss great insights is laughable. |
7th December 2012, 07:50 AM | #748 |
Merchant of Doom
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justintime:
You have three other threads for your theories; they are off-topic here. Your post has been reported. |
7th December 2012, 08:01 AM | #749 |
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What is and isn't a scientific debate?
Skeptics debating science is not a scientific debate. Skeptics claim their skepticism is a process to arrive at the truth/fact. But scientist also follow a process to arrive at facts. And that process has been used by the scientific community. It is called the scientific method. So unless skeptics are challenging the scientist's scientific method. It is hard to substantiate their claims against science based on their own methodology. Now skeptics such as Carl Sagan advocated scientific skepticism which is the scientific method. Then skeptics are challenging scientist over a methodology they themselves accept. Is it the skeptics goal to undetermined the very methodology they recognize as scientifically sound? Scientist say it is dangerous for religion to explain science. So too would be the converse where science tries to explain religion. This has been the classical struggle between creationist and evolutionist. But the barriers have fallen. There are scientist who are religious and there are religious people who are scientist. So the debates between religious academics and scientist are scientific debates. Is there a role for skeptics? They belong on Skeptic Forums debating both science and religion without the intensity or knowledge of either. |
7th December 2012, 08:05 AM | #750 |
Troublesome Passenger
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7th December 2012, 08:11 AM | #751 |
Banned
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7th December 2012, 08:17 AM | #752 |
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7th December 2012, 08:17 AM | #753 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Originally Posted by justintime
Skepticism does not mean forever refusing to draw any conclusions. It means waiting for the data. Once there IS data, conclusions can be drawn. Plus, we've already demonstrated in another thread that you don't actually know what the scientific method is. So there's that.
Quote:
Quote:
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7th December 2012, 08:42 AM | #754 |
Scholar
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you are exactly right that skepticism is not a position.
I dont agree it is a skeptics task to dismantle claims though - it is their job to verify or refute claims (as being accurately presented in an argument). If you want to use climate change as an example, just look at what Peter Hadfield has done on his youtube channel, Potholer54. Thats skepticism right there. ETA- an example of how a non scientist skeptic can have importance and relevance in the communication of just what science says - its not their place to argue the actual science http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...nge-scepticism |
7th December 2012, 08:45 AM | #755 |
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The answer should be a resounding NO. But giving what is there to pick from, the skeptic community is limited in their choices. The Skeptic Community is not an institution of academia. So it is a long way from any recognition or respectability. And such miss-steps by RW just raises criticism and not critical thinking.
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7th December 2012, 09:07 AM | #756 |
Penultimate Amazing
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justintime, please read the following, paying particular attention to the second section (on systematic doubt).
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/...or%20Today.HTM Were I you, I would be embarrassed to find that a Medieval monk had a better handle on skepticism than me. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that everything is open to doubts except the doubts themselves. That is false. Doubts are conclusions, and conclusions can be wrong--so the doubts can be wrong. What you are suggesting is a dishonest caricature of skepticism. And I say that as someone who has stated repeatedly that I'm not a skeptic. |
7th December 2012, 11:47 AM | #757 |
Muse
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7th December 2012, 11:49 AM | #758 |
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Empiricism: One who believes knowledge is gained through experience.
Rationalism: One who believes in reason to attain knowledge. Skeptic: One who denies all concepts of knowledge and reason, especially when there is no actual evidence. Skepticism: 1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety synonyms with uncertainty. In the past when knowledge of the physical world was limited one had to contend with many explanations. Man was ignorant of the world. It was important to separate the truth from ignorance. Philosophers argued how do we know what the truth is, how can we determine if what we know is true. That is why we have several theories about the very nature of knowledge. I have defined them above. Your link basically relies on logic as the truth determiner. You should go to What is a skeptic? You will find it in this same section. |
7th December 2012, 12:02 PM | #759 |
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List of scientist who believe in god.
Scientists and Their Beliefs in God http://www.biblequery.org/Science/Scientists.htm Theistic evolution. Also provides list of Christians who believe in evolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution When you search for scientist who are skeptics. Only climate change skeptics are listed. |
7th December 2012, 12:07 PM | #760 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Originally Posted by justintime
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