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3rd December 2012, 11:29 AM | #81 |
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I don't seem to recall the UFO's or alien spacecraft in Contact. I DO seem to recall that it was speculative fiction about HOW an actual contact with ETI MIGHT go down, if it ever occurred.
Plus, it was, as you said,FICTION |
3rd December 2012, 11:32 AM | #82 |
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3rd December 2012, 11:33 AM | #83 |
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3rd December 2012, 11:35 AM | #84 |
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3rd December 2012, 11:51 AM | #85 |
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SOCK or TROLL or SOCROLL?
Just asking. |
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3rd December 2012, 12:01 PM | #86 |
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Too many points to deal with in one post. The point raise in the legal system was the play on the line "beyond a reasonable doubt." So Skeptics are entitled to their doubts but are they reasonable and what is their threshold for accepting evidence because it appears very subjective from one Skeptic to another.
Skeptics are about debunking claims. According to Brian Dunning Skeptics are also Ghost believers and many are deeply religious. So what have they debunked? Skeptics are not experts in the field they criticize. This was a follow up to the notion that Skeptics are critical thinkers and evidence based directed. But critical thinking is a university level course often introduced in undergraduate courses and most Skeptics are not at that level of education on Skeptics forums (no offense intended). So much that is debated by Skeptics are really outside their scope. Which brings us to extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence. How many Skeptics can even raise to the level of understanding extraordinary evidence when they are barley coping with ordinary problems. I cited an example of a skeptic scientist Richard Muller who rejected climate change results because he was skeptical of its results even though it was peer reviewed research. He conducted his own research and came to the same conclusion. His research was denied peer review but Richard Muller announced he was now a climate change believer based on his own research which was a peer rejected study versus a peer reviewed one that he earlier denounced. So Skepticism is really a state of mind a psychological attribute of insecure individuals. |
3rd December 2012, 12:03 PM | #87 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:06 PM | #88 |
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driving a race car isn't hard because my grandmother drove a volkswagen to work every day and she had emphysema .
This is what you come at us with? to dumb it down for you: "I have cherry picked two examples of some possible hypocrisy that I may have interpreted in the world of skeptics, and since you are all dumb stinky toot heads who never got out of kindergarten, you are in no way qualified to call my ridiculous woo that I love and cherish so very very much ridiculous. so neener!" this is what you are saying, and it's wrong, and you either don't know what a skeptic is or are trolling due to getting the smack down put on you by a clever skeptic. either way, you are just looking more and more foolish. |
3rd December 2012, 12:13 PM | #89 |
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How do you kow he was concerned. He simply asked the question.
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Surely, in ANY scientific endeavour you first must have an interest in the field, then you come up with a proposition, then you search for the evidence to support that proposition. IF extraordinary claims quire extraordinary evidence then you LOOK for that extraordinary evidence first There is no conflict between believing intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, while at the same time believing that UFOs/Flying Saucers have nothing whatever to do with that life. This is my belief and I would imagine that near 100% of the genuine sceptic posters on this forum would believe the same thing, and that is what Carl Sagan also believed. IIRC, in an episode of Cosmos, he analysed Frank Drake's famous equation and came to two different conclusions; that intelligent civilisations might be teeming throughout our Galaxy, or, there may only be four, and our chances of finding them were remote. So the only thing to do was to get more accurate variables, and there are not many ways to do that other than searching for evidence that they exist, and that planets are not unique to us. In Carl Sagan's time as a younger man, there had been no Voyager missions, or Mars rovers. There was no evidence of liquid water on any other planet than the Earth, but there was an abundance of the elements required for life (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen) observable throughout the universe no matter where we looked. The evidence that there that the OUGHT to be life. It is reasonable to assume that if the basic elements where everywhere then life was everywhere. Now, we know that there are other places in our very solar system that have liquid water, Mars, Callisto & Europa ate least, and there is now considered the possibility of life existing elsewhere in our solar system. Also,at that time there had not been any extrasolar planets discovered. We now know of at least 750 extrasolar planets. If our theories about solar system formation are correct, then stars have planets as naturally as cats have kittens. The search for extrasolar planets, and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence are genuine, bona-fide scientific researches than will help to refine the Drake Equation and tell us, not IF there are intelligent civilisations throughout the Cosmos, but HOW MANY there are. There is no need to be obsessed with the idea in order to believe it is true. |
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3rd December 2012, 12:18 PM | #90 |
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As usual, I suspect, rather, it is your habitual carelessness with truth, which you have demonstrated on this very topic in other fora, which may be the problem.
As I personally, and others, on other fora, have pointed out to you, Sagan was 17 years old when he wrote the letter to which you refer. As I poiinted out to you in post #18, above, and on another forum, the young Sagan did not claim that the fad of "UFO sightings" did, in fat, indicate a threat form "aliens". Rather, Sagan, perhaps brashly, asked Dean Acheson, the Secretary of State at the time, how the United Staes would respond if, in fact, "UFOs" actually did turn out to be of alien origin (a reasonable question). You really might want to read the actual letter, for comprehension. Dr. Hawking (you might want to get his name right) is, in fact, of the opinion that "interacting with" "intelligent alien life forms" might be "too risky", especailly extrapolating how the only intelligent life form we know has treated its own members in historic "first contact" situations. As a matter of fact, Dr. Hawking lists being attacked by intelligent alien life forms as "just one of the dismaying possibilities in the search for intelligent life beyond Earth". Can you demonstrate that Dr. Hawking's speculation is, in fact, misplaced? Your decision to ignore what has been said to you does not change the fact that I , personally have, and at least one other person to my knowledge has, explained this very issue about the young Sagan's letter in another forum. Your ad hom is noted. Your claim that Dr. Sagan " had to make them believe they exists" demonstrates that you really do not understand how science works (and are not overconcerned with accuracy, but that is another issue) I am curious what you think scientists should look for, or study, if it is wrong to look for evidence of something for which evidence does has not (yet) been found. But, by all means, continue to pretend that your personal disapproval of Dr, Sagan demonstrates something significant about skeptics. |
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3rd December 2012, 12:22 PM | #91 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:26 PM | #92 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:31 PM | #93 |
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But that is exactly the point. At 17 Carl Sagan believe in flying saucers and aliens. And took it seriously enough to write to the Sectary of State. Later he became a skeptic of UFOs as it is mentioned in his biographies. But he did not lose his obsession with aliens. He spend the rest of his life looking for extraterrestrial intelligent life or aliens. That is a super sized obsession.
Definition of Extraterrestrial: originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere. Aliens as everyone knows are extraterrestrial. |
3rd December 2012, 12:31 PM | #94 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:34 PM | #95 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:34 PM | #96 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:49 PM | #97 |
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If I spend time researching whether there is nitrogen in the atmosphere of Mars does it mean that I believe nitrogen exists in the atmosphere of Mars?
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3rd December 2012, 12:50 PM | #98 |
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I'm going to go on the record as stating that anything with Tom Skerritt in it is a documentary. Anything with Tom Skerritt and David Morse is literally and universally true in every social and moral framework.
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3rd December 2012, 12:51 PM | #99 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:52 PM | #100 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:53 PM | #101 |
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The information received contained the blueprint for a spacecraft. The spacecraft was built from that blueprint and used to contact the aliens.
Yes, it was a piece of fiction written and marketed at the same time he was also denouncing UFOs and alien encounters. Sounds hypocritical. |
3rd December 2012, 12:54 PM | #102 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:55 PM | #103 |
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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3rd December 2012, 12:56 PM | #104 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:57 PM | #105 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:57 PM | #106 |
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3rd December 2012, 12:58 PM | #107 |
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As I,and others, have pointed out to you in several threads on other fora, Contact is a novel. A novel of speculative fiction. A novel written for entertainment. But please, feel free continue to claim that writing the novel is somehow a failing of Dr. Sagan's. Evidence would be nice...
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3rd December 2012, 01:02 PM | #108 |
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Like if someone had a persistent preoccupation with badmouthing skeptics and skepticism on various forums on the internet, disturbing to the extent that it manifests itself in expressing unreasonable ideas or feelings in a way that gets him banned from some of those forums? Like is that a fair description of an obsession? No, Carl Sagan's interest was not an obsession. |
3rd December 2012, 01:13 PM | #109 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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3rd December 2012, 01:20 PM | #110 |
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Evidently Sagan was so obsessed that he barely found time to earn two bachelor's degrees, a master's degree, and a doctorate; to write twenty best-selling works, some fiction but mostly nonfiction; to cowrite and host Cosmos, an extraordinarily popular award-winning TV series on the nature of science and the universe; to serve as a Professor of Astronomy at Cornell University and to direct the Laboratory for Planetary Studies there; to work as a consultant and advisor for NASA; to serve as a contributing editor/technology officer of the journal Icarus for more than a decade; to cofound the Planetary Society; to chair a division of the American Astronomical Society and become the President of the Planetologicy division of the American Geophysical Union; to marry (three times) and to father three children; to win thirty important awards, ranging from two Emmies to a Pulitzer Prize.
Sad that his consuming obsession prevented him from doing anything really worthwhile. Who knows what a brilliant career he might have had? |
3rd December 2012, 01:23 PM | #111 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:25 PM | #112 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:29 PM | #113 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:32 PM | #114 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:34 PM | #115 |
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I hope you will take this as a friendly hint, "mate", but by starting your post with an erroneous, and argumentative, and incomplete, and adversarial, definition, you almost guaranteed the kind of response you are, in fact. getting.
If you want to discuss the "difference between scientific skepticism and classical Hume, Descartes, Pyrrho" and "address the problems of the One and Many", you might consider a post along these lines: "I am hoping that someone here will be willing to frame for me the differences among what I shall call "scientific skepticism", Hume, Descartes, and Pyrrho; and, in addition, perhaps address the problems of the "One and Many"." That way, it does not look as if you are simply pursuing an "obsession" with insulting and denigrating skeptics and skeptical thinkers into a new forum from which you have not been banned. YMMV |
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3rd December 2012, 01:35 PM | #116 |
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It is like I am denouncing pornography as a social evil and at the same time making a phonographic movie with fictitious characters. Of course it is a fiction. The characters are not real so where is the connection. How is that hypocrisy?
That is the problem with Skepticism. Skepticism is not a position (has no moral conviction), it is a process. The process is only as good as the person processing it. |
3rd December 2012, 01:37 PM | #117 |
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That's why God invented paragraphs.
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That's assuming that you're accurately reporting what he's said, that is. I'm a little sceptical of your claim.
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3rd December 2012, 01:37 PM | #118 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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3rd December 2012, 01:40 PM | #119 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:43 PM | #120 |
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