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3rd December 2012, 01:43 PM | #121 |
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Wow. That analogy is quite a leap from Carl Sagan writing a piece of fiction about exploring alien contact and being a skeptic on the issue of alien visitation. So distant a leap in fact that either could best be described as irrelevant to the other.
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Aha! That could be the crux of the problem right there. It appears you don't understand what skepticism is and how it's applied. No wonder your arguments seem filled with confusion and misunderstanding. |
3rd December 2012, 01:45 PM | #122 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:49 PM | #123 |
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First off, in this context, the word "skeptic" is not a proper noun, so I'm not sure why you've begun to capitalize it.
You appear to be conflating skepticism with cynicism. They are not the same. Many skeptics I've encountered are among the least cynical people I've met. Skepticism isn't about saying, "I refuse to believe it". Rather, it is about saying, "I need to be convinced". And guess what? Skepticism is subjective. It's a method employed by people. I'm not sure why you would expect all skeptics to agree completely about standards of acceptable evidence, or why it would surprise you that some people can be skeptical regarding certain issues, yet also believe in ghosts or gods.
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Here's what I think. I think that you have a belief in something that you can't justify with facts or reason, and you've encountered many skeptics who have pointed out the logical flaws your arguments. But rather than address those flaws you've decided to poison the well by characterizing skeptics as as suffering from insecurity. Ironic, isn't it? |
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3rd December 2012, 01:50 PM | #124 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:50 PM | #125 |
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That was a quote by Dr. Shermer: Skepticism is not a position; it's a process.
http://skeptoid.com/skeptic.php How would a Skeptic know who he is? Dr. Michael Shermer is Founding Publisher of Skeptic magazine, Executive Director of the Skeptics Society, and columnist for Scientific American. Guess who said this." When I am good I am really good. When I am bad I am even better. " |
3rd December 2012, 01:53 PM | #126 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:58 PM | #127 |
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3rd December 2012, 01:58 PM | #128 |
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3rd December 2012, 02:02 PM | #129 |
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The problem you seem to have here is some severe disconnect between your perception of skeptics and skepticism and how the process is actually applied, what sorts of results might be expected, and how to work those results into our understanding of the universe we live in. What is your agenda, anyway? Are you a ghost believer? UFOs = aliens? Climate change isn't man made? You think you can see people's kidneys through their clothes and skin, and some skeptics were mean to you when you couldn't actually do it? Really, why all the anger and resentment toward skeptics? What is your unsupportable belief, and why are you reluctant to just start a thread about it and make your best case? |
3rd December 2012, 02:05 PM | #130 |
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1. Contact is a work of fiction. It was Sagan imagining what it might be like if humans did detect a signal from an extraterrestrial civilization.
2. Being a skeptic of UFOs does not mean that one must also believe that life cannot exist elsewhere in the universe. That's as silly as thinking that if life exists elsewhere in the universe, then it must be visiting us here in UFOs. 3. Being skeptical about something is not the same as denying its possibility. When asked, Sagan generally stated that he was very doubtful about the legitimacy of UFO claims, but he never claimed to have epistemological certainty that they were not alien visitors. |
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3rd December 2012, 02:07 PM | #131 |
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Skepticism appears to match the definition of insecurity.
Compare. Skepticism: 1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety synonyms with uncertainty. Insecurity definition: 1. Not sure or certain; doubtful: That is what I said in the OP. What is a Skeptic? Why they might not be Skeptics but just very insecure individuals. Link: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=248789 |
3rd December 2012, 02:14 PM | #132 |
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So, if skeptics are supposed to accept your adversarial definition of what "skeptical thought" or a "skeptical approach" "really is", does it follow that you accept the adversarial characterization of "religion" as "superstition", since the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (2nd ed) defines "superstition" as "any belief held without evidence"?
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3rd December 2012, 02:16 PM | #133 |
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So what? As a child I believed in Jesus and UFOs.
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3rd December 2012, 02:20 PM | #134 |
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3rd December 2012, 02:21 PM | #135 |
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3rd December 2012, 02:25 PM | #136 |
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3rd December 2012, 02:26 PM | #137 |
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3rd December 2012, 02:31 PM | #138 |
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3rd December 2012, 03:00 PM | #139 |
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Brian Dunning/ What is Skepticism?
http://skeptoid.com/skeptic.php
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I don't meet skeptics outside of Skeptic forums. So I am trying to understand what drives a Skeptic. Skeptic definition: 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions. How does a Skeptic communicate if he disagrees with generally accepted conclusions. There are millions of generally accepted conclusion a cumulative buildup of knowledge over the generations. How does a Skeptic go about validating every one of those assertions before accepting them. I went through 10 pages of debating because the Skeptic member (on another forum) refused to believe what he said and wanted me to show him the evidence. And when I did he refused to accept that was what he meant. Here was a single parent on welfare, a school dropout living in a crummy apartment making it through the month a bus token at a time refusing to believe not only what he said but also the dire conditions of his existence. It is this troubling experience that drives me to reach out to Skeptics and get them to recognize most times the evidence is self evident. I apologize for sounding off. And I agree not everyone here is a Skeptic, they might just be very insecure individuals. |
3rd December 2012, 03:07 PM | #140 |
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3rd December 2012, 03:14 PM | #141 |
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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3rd December 2012, 03:16 PM | #142 |
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3rd December 2012, 03:18 PM | #143 |
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I am not a religious person but I do believe in defending the religious rights of people. And with 0ver 3 billion believers. It would take a lot of hating to hold all of them in contempt. I have made the effort to study comparative religion and many secular philosophies. And they all teach us about our humanity.
As for your question. There are many religions and then there are superstitions. So learn "The difference between religion and superstition". http://mikio.hubpages.com/hub/The-di...d-superstition |
3rd December 2012, 03:20 PM | #144 |
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3rd December 2012, 03:22 PM | #145 |
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How do you know this? Do you ask everyone you meet? Most people apply skepticism to one degree or another, so I suspect you've met more than you realize.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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3rd December 2012, 03:36 PM | #146 |
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And you think this makes you different from skeptics?
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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3rd December 2012, 03:36 PM | #147 |
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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3rd December 2012, 03:39 PM | #148 |
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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3rd December 2012, 03:44 PM | #149 |
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3rd December 2012, 03:47 PM | #150 |
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That's one of the worst analogies I've ever seen.
Why can't you seem to understand that one can accept the possibility that life exists elsewhere in the universe, but also conclude that there isn't any convincing evidence that it is visiting us here on Earth with the purpose of anally probing any idiot in a pickup truck?
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Science has no moral convictions either. Morality is subjective and varies from person to person. |
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3rd December 2012, 04:00 PM | #151 |
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What a load of tosh! There wasn't a single UFO anywhere in the FICTION NOVEL Contact, and the only alien spacecraft was built by humans.
Also, it is not unusual for scientists and engineers to "cross over" to be science fiction authors and vice-versa. You may have heard of Isaac Asimov, a prolific science fiction writer, but what you may not realise is that he also wrote over 60 books of non-fiction including textbooks on particle physics, astrophysics and chemistry. So wide ranging was his writings that his works have been published in all ten major categories of the Dewey Decimal system! Fred Hoyle also comes to mind (the Black Cloud), and Gentry Lee, who is the chief engineer for the Planetary Flight Systems Directorate at JPL, co-wrote the "Rama" sequels with Arthur C. Clarke. Interestingly, Lee was also a series producer on Carl Sagan's "Cosmos". |
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3rd December 2012, 04:22 PM | #152 |
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That should be of grave concern that science has no moral convictions. I have tried to accept Science as an amoral discipline. I also considered those scientist who help build the nuclear bomb. If scientist cannot be responsible for how it is used. Then their scientific curiosity should be subject to some restraint because of consequences they have not considered. Which brings to mind Stephen Hawking's warnings that we should avoid making contact with aliens because they might not have altruistic intentions.
Now try communicating that to a scientist like Carl Sagan who was obsessed with contacting aliens and supported by Skeptics who have yet to articulate the wisdom behind his obsession. Stephen Hawking Warns Over Making Contact with Aliens https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/04/25 |
3rd December 2012, 04:28 PM | #153 |
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3rd December 2012, 04:36 PM | #154 |
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3rd December 2012, 04:40 PM | #155 |
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3rd December 2012, 04:45 PM | #156 |
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In fact, I don't think he was obsessed with ETS and UFOs. |
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3rd December 2012, 04:46 PM | #157 |
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It's fiction! And what's more, the plot summary you quoted actually supports smartcookie's comment that "there wasn't a single UFO anywhere in the FICTION NOVEL Contact, and the only alien spacecraft was built by humans". But basically, it's fiction. |
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3rd December 2012, 04:49 PM | #158 |
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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3rd December 2012, 04:52 PM | #159 |
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Who do you propose should subject this restraint, and what qualifies them for the task?
I fail to see the relevance. This suggestion is simply prudent in light of our presumed technological inferiority to an extraterrestrial race capable of interstellar travel. It really has nothing to do with skepticism, but rather self preservation. Being that you haven't established that Carl Sagan was actually obsessed with contacting aliens, why do you continue to accuse him of it? |
3rd December 2012, 04:54 PM | #160 |
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justintime, do you understand the difference between extraterrestrial life and UFOs?
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