Suicide - Page 2

Safe-Keeper · 28th May 2012, 01:35 PM

Now you're putting words in my mouth. No, if we were to stop any action that caused any kind of harm or grievance in other people, no matter how small, we wouldn't be able to do anything, and I'm pretty sure you realize I didn't mean that. Slippery slope fallacy.

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

I really can't stand people who dismiss suicide as cowardly or pathetic. Often they just seem disturbed by the notion or have had suicidal thoughts in the past and are overcompensating in their desire to avoid future incidents. It comes off as ham fisted and clumsy.

People often commit suicide over petty things, this is true, but if someone is actually suffering it's just as selfish to force them to live just so you or others avoid feeling that loss as it is to ignore their suffering.

Something I can't stand myself is the way people treat emotional suffering as somehow less legitimate than "real" suffering. It is a shame how many people commit suicide over things that are finite. But at what point does something cease to be finite in a finite life?

My objection is rather different.
To my mind, the right to choose to end your own life under any circumstances is pretty basic. No need for pain , physical or psychological, or disease, or any reason at all, other than that you choose to.

I'm not advocating that suicide is a good idea, just that it's nobody's business but that of the primary person involved.

That's a philosophic POV.
The reality is that people generally have strong self preservation instincts and a person who chooses to die by his own hand generally is in trouble- real or imagined - of some serious kind. Such a person needs help.
The moral problem is knowing when , if such help is rejected, to accept the decision of the individual. Or must we lock him away "for his own good" in every case?

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Now you're putting words in my mouth. No, if we were to stop any action that caused any kind of harm or grievance in other people, no matter how small, we wouldn't be able to do anything, and I'm pretty sure you realize I didn't mean that. Slippery slope fallacy.

I think I understand you quite clearly.
You want to tell me how I can die.

baron · 28th May 2012, 01:40 PM

Suicide is selfish but that's pretty much a given, considering the nature of the act. I think medically sound, assisted suicide options should be available for everybody who wants them, healthy or sick, who can demonstrate a reasoned and consistent commitment to their decision. I predict that in 100 years this will be the norm, in the West at least.

Soapy Sam · 28th May 2012, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by baron

Suicide is selfish but that's pretty much a given, considering the nature of the act.

That's verging on tautology though. Virtually everything we do in life is selfish to some extent. Why single out suicide?

Quote:

I think medically sound, assisted suicide options should be available for everybody who wants them, healthy or sick, who can demonstrate a reasoned and consistent commitment to their decision. I predict that in 100 years this will be the norm, in the West at least.

Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill."

sadhatter · 28th May 2012, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

Personally i could never do it, but i have zero problem if someone wants to, except for one situation, when my life is on the line.

If your sitting in your suburban apartment , life sucks, and you want to off yourself, go nuts. It doesn't harm anyone besides the poor schmuck who has to clean it up. It is your choice, and no one has the right to tell you not to make it.

But suicide in, lets say wartime, or if one has dependents, well that is another story. No way to stop it, obviously, but that is when it becomes cowardly.

I always tend to think of survival/zombie movies when i think of suicide. There is never a character i hate more ( from a moral standpoint. I hate those folks that treat film like it is meeting a bunch of people, and let moral decisions fictional characters make stop them from enjoying a film. ), than the guy who pulls his own trigger when there is a horde of undead slamming at the gates, or him and his friends just got stranded somewhere in the arctic.

Maybe everything would go belly up, but maybe having that one extra body would have been the difference between life and death.

sadhatter · 28th May 2012, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

My objection is rather different.
To my mind, the right to choose to end your own life under any circumstances is pretty basic. No need for pain , physical or psychological, or disease, or any reason at all, other than that you choose to.

I'm not advocating that suicide is a good idea, just that it's nobody's business but that of the primary person involved.

That's a philosophic POV.
The reality is that people generally have strong self preservation instincts and a person who chooses to die by his own hand generally is in trouble- real or imagined - of some serious kind. Such a person needs help.
The moral problem is knowing when , if such help is rejected, to accept the decision of the individual. Or must we lock him away "for his own good" in every case?

The thing here is judgement versus enforcement. Let's be real, we cannot enforce not committing suicide, sure we can try, but in the only situations where suicide is something that should be stopped ( People depend on you to live, whether that be kids , fellow soldiers, or any other situation in which your continuing existence is required for a higher chance of survival, or an improved quality of life.) , the only option that is even kind of effective ( locking someone in an environment that is suicide resistant.) , has the same basic effect on the folks that matter in the situation.

So we know it can't be stopped, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have a negative view of suicide, or even specific kinds of suicide. It is a simple fact that if you screw off on people, leaving them in a bad situation, you suck. And said sucking does not simply evaporate because you decided to make sure your leaving is permanent.

Lowpro · 28th May 2012, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

I really can't stand people who dismiss suicide as cowardly or pathetic. Often they just seem disturbed by the notion or have had suicidal thoughts in the past and are overcompensating in their desire to avoid future incidents. It comes off as ham fisted and clumsy.

People often commit suicide over petty things, this is true, but if someone is actually suffering it's just as selfish to force them to live just so you or others avoid feeling that loss as it is to ignore their suffering.

Something I can't stand myself is the way people treat emotional suffering as somehow less legitimate than "real" suffering. It is a shame how many people commit suicide over things that are finite. But at what point does something cease to be finite in a finite life?

It's selfish BECAUSE killing yourself over petty reasons is stupid. Don't kill yourself, that's stupid. Find another way out and if you can't, ask someone to help. So yes, suicide is selfish, and I don't easily dismiss it as such either.

sadhatter · 28th May 2012, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

That's verging on tautology though. Virtually everything we do in life is selfish to some extent. Why single out suicide?Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill."

I hate the " Everything is **insert word of the argument here** to some extent.", line of reasoning.

The key point of this is "To some extent." , a punch in the knackers, and a tap on the shoulder both cause sensation, so why is one singled out as mean, while the other is okay?

Or to put it in a more direct manner " $1 and $12,000,000,000,000 are both values of money, why would one want to win one versus the other?".

Aepervius · 28th May 2012, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

*Opinions?

*Is it cowardly?

No.

Quote:

*Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery?

When my pet was having cancer and was suffering , and it was not healable anymore, I put it down. Why should we allow pet to not suffer, and human must be made to drink the bitter water up to the end ? That make no sense.

Quote:

*Is Assisted Suicide murder?

Nope, as long as the suicidee is conscious and is as sane as one can be in such situation, (ETA by which I mean able to state his decision if he is not able to do the deed alone due to physical limitation) it isn't.

Quote:

*Is suicide ever justifiable?

Sure. Last stage of lethal illness where only suffering and no healing / respite is to be expected. YMMW.

Quote:

*When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves?

The question of selfinesh does not enter in it IMHO. Your life belongs to you and only you. Whether one may want to assuage family or SO that is one thing, but in the very end , life and death by their nature can only be personal. ETA: and suicidee usually do it due to pain, either mental, or physical. I would contend that when somebody is suffering, and they want to end it, saying that the decision of suicide is selfsih is beyond pale and the trully selfish thing.

baron · 28th May 2012, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

That's verging on tautology though. Virtually everything we do in life is selfish to some extent. Why single out suicide?

Well, I didn't, it's just what the thread's about. But the potential impact of suicide on others combined with the the self-evident relation to the self means that it must be towards the top of the list of selfish acts. That doesn't make it wrong or unreasonable but in the majority of cases it deserves the label.

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill."

Unfortunately that would be true in many cases, although I do see it changing over time.

sadhatter · 28th May 2012, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

No.

When my pet was having cancer and was suffering , and it was not healable anymore, I put it down. Why should we allow pet to not suffer, and human must be made to drink the bitter water up to the end ? That make no sense.

Nope, as long as the suicidee is conscious and is as sane as one can be in such situation, (ETA by which I mean able to state his decision if he is not able to do the deed alone due to physical limitation) it isn't.

Sure. Last stage of lethal illness where only suffering and no healing / respite is to be expected. YMMW.

The question of selfinesh does not enter in it IMHO. Your life belongs to you and only you. Whether one may want to assuage family or SO that is one thing, but in the very end , life and death by their nature can only be personal. ETA: and suicidee usually do it due to pain, either mental, or physical. I would contend that when somebody is suffering, and they want to end it, saying that the decision of suicide is selfsih is beyond pale and the trully selfish thing.

A few comments.

First, i have always hated the "We put animals out of their misery." line of reasoning. Because, personally, i don't find that all that humane. Being killed without my consent, in any form is a huge thing i want to avoid. I want to be hooked up to every machine, device, and given every scientifically sound medicine possible before giving up the ghost. When death comes for me, he is either going to be witnessing me taking a pill, or having another do-dad hooked up to my comatose body. And as such, i would treat my animals the same, to me euthanizing a pet is much more about the owner than the pet. We don't want to see the suffering, we have no idea if the pet would prefer to die or not, but we like to think it would because it makes our decision easier. And that isn't to say i assume all animals don't want to die, i am prone to the same bias, that everyone else is, but i can at least take a step back and say i am simply using my own views as a guideline to how i treat my pets.

Second, the "selfishness does not enter into it." seems flawed. If a gent were to simply leave his wife and kids in financial distress, we would brand him an *******, and with good cause. Hell, we have laws in place to try and prevent people from doing this, but once you change leave to commit suicide, suddenly it is a morally acceptable action? That simply doesn't make sense.

I am all in favor of assisted suicide, heck, as someone who is going to school to become a pharmacist, i wouldn't even have trouble if there was an over the counter suicide pill, somewhat like plan B. Providing the person wanting it could show that they do not have financial, or other, dependents. Making folks sad, sure, they can deal, lots of things make folks sad. But once you are damaging the quality of , or ability to sustain life of others, then you are nothing more than the ******* that dyes his hair, grows a moustache and moves to alaska to get away from his responsibilities.

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th May 2012, 03:00 PM

Yeesh, I knew pro-suicide arguments would pop up eventually. I see it as a bizarre case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The moral arc of the universe is truly grand

.

Safe-Keeper · 28th May 2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill."

Of course not everyone who contemplates suicide is mentally ill, but this doesn't change the fact that psychiatry is the body best suited for helping suicidal people. Where do you propose we send them if they need help, to a car mechanic or dentist?

Quote:

I think I understand you quite clearly.
You want to tell me how I can die.

:violin:

Quote:

Yeesh, I knew pro-suicide arguments would pop up eventually.

Ya. They always do.

Lolly · 28th May 2012, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Where do you propose we send them if they need help, to a car mechanic or dentist?

That's pretty much your only option. The ubiquitous "help" that everyone bleats on about doesn't really exist. It's just a device so that everybody can blame the person for not asking for it. "If only they'd asked for help! Oh dear what a shame that they didn't. If they'd asked for help, fairies would have flown down from the sky and everything would have been solved. But it's ok, we've got a reason to blame them now, we don't need to consider how we wrote them off as selfish when they started whining about how bad they felt and avoided them because they were such a downer and wouldn't listen to our excellent advice as to how they could snap out of it, it's their fault for not asking for help and then for just being a selfish prick by abandoning all of these worthwhile people who deserve the consideration that that big piece of nothing did not. All they had to do was take up jogging, but they were too selfish to listen to me."

In cases of mental illness, the person suiciding is no more making a choice to abandon their dependants than a person with cancer or any other terminal illness.

Lowpro · 28th May 2012, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

A few comments.

First, i have always hated the "We put animals out of their misery."

A line I learned from my dad in regards to "put it out of my misery" that I found quite enjoyable. "Son you're not putting it out of its misery. You're putting it out of your misery"

I feel better myself when I think I've made it feel better.

Marduk · 28th May 2012, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Yeesh, I knew pro-suicide arguments would pop up eventually. .

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

JJM 777 · 28th May 2012, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

psychiatry is the body best suited for helping suicidal people. Where do you propose we send them if they need help, to a car mechanic or dentist?

A number of suicides are committed by a young and viable person, who becomes wheelchair bound for life in a car accident or something. Still it is a mental problem, compared to those who are in wheelchair without being suicidal, but I fully accept it that a person may prefer death to life in such circumstances.

angrysoba · 28th May 2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Personally i could never do it, but i have zero problem if someone wants to, except for one situation, when my life is on the line.

If your sitting in your suburban apartment , life sucks, and you want to off yourself, go nuts. It doesn't harm anyone besides the poor schmuck who has to clean it up. It is your choice, and no one has the right to tell you not to make it.

But suicide in, lets say wartime, or if one has dependents, well that is another story. No way to stop it, obviously, but that is when it becomes cowardly.

I always tend to think of survival/zombie movies when i think of suicide. There is never a character i hate more ( from a moral standpoint. I hate those folks that treat film like it is meeting a bunch of people, and let moral decisions fictional characters make stop them from enjoying a film. ), than the guy who pulls his own trigger when there is a horde of undead slamming at the gates, or him and his friends just got stranded somewhere in the arctic.

Maybe everything would go belly up, but maybe having that one extra body would have been the difference between life and death.

But what if that guy who committed suicide was instead bitten by a zombie and turned into one, then he has now swelled the ranks of the zombies and could make all the difference to them.

Actually, the other day I watched the Road and there is a very disturbing scene where the guy is teaching his son how to commit suicide. In that particular film, in the world they are in, it could potentially be the best thing to do because life at the hands of some of the people in that film would probably be far worse than death.

TragicMonkey · 28th May 2012, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

A number of suicides are committed by a young and viable person, who becomes wheelchair bound for life in a car accident or something. Still it is a mental problem, compared to those who are in wheelchair without being suicidal, but I fully accept it that a person may prefer death to life in such circumstances.

There are also degenerative diseases that people get, and know they will get worse and worse, and more and more helpless, and there is no cure. I don't see how anyone could condemn someone for choosing suicide if the alternative is to become a prisoner in one's own body, with no hope of improvement.

Personally, I enjoy life, but only while it is of a certain quality. If I were in constant pain, or rendered unable to do things that I like, or become a burden on someone else, I would indeed consider suicide a possibility.

marplots · 28th May 2012, 11:22 PM

I've never been seriously suicidal, but I've ended my life more than once. I ended my life and started a new one when I went off to a military academy, got married and moved to another state. I ended it a decade later when I lost a career and went bankrupt (well, to be honest, that time it was ended for me).

So, I wonder if the "I want to end my life" can be interpreted as "ending this life I'm living now" or if that's simply impossible. Radical change seems more doable to me than death. Death could still be an option if things go haywire I guess.

I'm also wondering how those in prison for life do it. Certainly, if anyone is stuck in a meaningless existence, those people are. Are they just too stubborn or stupid to see suicide as a way out or does it take a certain mindset to think suicide?

mike3 · 29th May 2012, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

So what should you do? Well, you'll probably just go on doing what you want to do, which is what people do. You're going to have to deal with the fact that, as a result, a lot of people will kill themselves. You probably already have psychic defenses against this, and convince yourself that you're a Good Guy™ who Isn't At Fault™. If you are like this, it's better that you avoid the subject entirely.

So what should you do to be a REAL good guy i.e. to GENUINELY *NOT* be "at fault" and have *NO* blood on your hands? What is the REAL right thing to do? Just do nothing and leave the suicide alone?

mike3 · 29th May 2012, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

We don't need judgment that we're selfish. That, we know, you do for yourself. We don't need the sort of ostentatious "I do not presume to judge them" either. You do that for yourself and your self-image as well. You can either be all judgmental, to convince yourself by denial that you are all safe and superior, or you can be all sympathetic, to convince yourself that you are so good, or you can be all respectful, to convince yourself that you're all respectful, etc. and so forth and so on. None of this is in any way helpful to us.

So what do you have to do or not do just to simply not be doing things "for yourself"? Or is that actually not a bad thing?

Professor Yaffle · 29th May 2012, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by marplots

I'm also wondering how those in prison for life do it. Certainly, if anyone is stuck in a meaningless existence, those people are. Are they just too stubborn or stupid to see suicide as a way out or does it take a certain mindset to think suicide?

Quote:

The suicide rate in prisons is almost 15 times higher than in the general population: in 2002 the rate was 143 per 100,000 compared to 9 per 100,000 in the general population. (The National Service Framework For Mental Health: Five Years On, Department of Health, 2004; Samaritans Information Resource Pack, 2004)

http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-...stics/prisons/ (uk figures)

marplots · 29th May 2012, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-...stics/prisons/ (uk figures)

Yes, I understand the suicide rate in prison is much higher than out of prison, but still 143 per 100,000 leave a lot of prisoners apparently dealing with their condition. Do they drug them?

I'm still curious as to how so many seem to deal with such a hopeless life. I suppose I should think about only those who are in prison for life, no possibility of parole and out of appeals.

edit to add: From the Federal Bureau of Prison's website (http://www.bop.gov/inmate_programs/mental.jsp and this is just Federal prisons with no date listed on the site).

Quote:

"The Bureau's suicide rate is lower than that of the United States population as a whole, and this appears to be related to the agency's rigorous training and prevention efforts."

Maybe the US has nicer prisons than Britain.

28th May 2012, 01:38 PM	#42
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur I really can't stand people who dismiss suicide as cowardly or pathetic. Often they just seem disturbed by the notion or have had suicidal thoughts in the past and are overcompensating in their desire to avoid future incidents. It comes off as ham fisted and clumsy. People often commit suicide over petty things, this is true, but if someone is actually suffering it's just as selfish to force them to live just so you or others avoid feeling that loss as it is to ignore their suffering. Something I can't stand myself is the way people treat emotional suffering as somehow less legitimate than "real" suffering. It is a shame how many people commit suicide over things that are finite. But at what point does something cease to be finite in a finite life? My objection is rather different. To my mind, the right to choose to end your own life under any circumstances is pretty basic. No need for pain , physical or psychological, or disease, or any reason at all, other than that you choose to. I'm not advocating that suicide is a good idea, just that it's nobody's business but that of the primary person involved. That's a philosophic POV. The reality is that people generally have strong self preservation instincts and a person who chooses to die by his own hand generally is in trouble- real or imagined - of some serious kind. Such a person needs help. The moral problem is knowing when , if such help is rejected, to accept the decision of the individual. Or must we lock him away "for his own good" in every case?
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

28th May 2012, 01:39 PM	#43
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Now you're putting words in my mouth. No, if we were to stop any action that caused any kind of harm or grievance in other people, no matter how small, we wouldn't be able to do anything, and I'm pretty sure you realize I didn't mean that. Slippery slope fallacy. I think I understand you quite clearly. You want to tell me how I can die.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

28th May 2012, 01:40 PM	#44
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Suicide is selfish but that's pretty much a given, considering the nature of the act. I think medically sound, assisted suicide options should be available for everybody who wants them, healthy or sick, who can demonstrate a reasoned and consistent commitment to their decision. I predict that in 100 years this will be the norm, in the West at least.
	__________________

28th May 2012, 01:45 PM	#45
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by baron Suicide is selfish but that's pretty much a given, considering the nature of the act. That's verging on tautology though. Virtually everything we do in life is selfish to some extent. Why single out suicide? Quote: I think medically sound, assisted suicide options should be available for everybody who wants them, healthy or sick, who can demonstrate a reasoned and consistent commitment to their decision. I predict that in 100 years this will be the norm, in the West at least. Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill."
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

28th May 2012, 01:50 PM	#46
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by derchin Opinions? Is it cowardly? Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? Is Assisted Suicide murder? Is suicide ever justifiable? When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? Personally i could never do it, but i have zero problem if someone wants to, except for one situation, when my life is on the line. If your sitting in your suburban apartment , life sucks, and you want to off yourself, go nuts. It doesn't harm anyone besides the poor schmuck who has to clean it up. It is your choice, and no one has the right to tell you not to make it. But suicide in, lets say wartime, or if one has dependents, well that is another story. No way to stop it, obviously, but that is when it becomes cowardly. I always tend to think of survival/zombie movies when i think of suicide. There is never a character i hate more ( from a moral standpoint. I hate those folks that treat film like it is meeting a bunch of people, and let moral decisions fictional characters make stop them from enjoying a film. ), than the guy who pulls his own trigger when there is a horde of undead slamming at the gates, or him and his friends just got stranded somewhere in the arctic. Maybe everything would go belly up, but maybe having that one extra body would have been the difference between life and death.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

28th May 2012, 01:35 PM	#41
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,121	Now you're putting words in my mouth. No, if we were to stop any action that caused any kind of harm or grievance in other people, no matter how small, we wouldn't be able to do anything, and I'm pretty sure you realize I didn't mean that. Slippery slope fallacy.

28th May 2012, 01:55 PM	#47
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam My objection is rather different. To my mind, the right to choose to end your own life under any circumstances is pretty basic. No need for pain , physical or psychological, or disease, or any reason at all, other than that you choose to. I'm not advocating that suicide is a good idea, just that it's nobody's business but that of the primary person involved. That's a philosophic POV. The reality is that people generally have strong self preservation instincts and a person who chooses to die by his own hand generally is in trouble- real or imagined - of some serious kind. Such a person needs help. The moral problem is knowing when , if such help is rejected, to accept the decision of the individual. Or must we lock him away "for his own good" in every case? The thing here is judgement versus enforcement. Let's be real, we cannot enforce not committing suicide, sure we can try, but in the only situations where suicide is something that should be stopped ( People depend on you to live, whether that be kids , fellow soldiers, or any other situation in which your continuing existence is required for a higher chance of survival, or an improved quality of life.) , the only option that is even kind of effective ( locking someone in an environment that is suicide resistant.) , has the same basic effect on the folks that matter in the situation. So we know it can't be stopped, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have a negative view of suicide, or even specific kinds of suicide. It is a simple fact that if you screw off on people, leaving them in a bad situation, you suck. And said sucking does not simply evaporate because you decided to make sure your leaving is permanent.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

28th May 2012, 01:57 PM	#48
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,538	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur I really can't stand people who dismiss suicide as cowardly or pathetic. Often they just seem disturbed by the notion or have had suicidal thoughts in the past and are overcompensating in their desire to avoid future incidents. It comes off as ham fisted and clumsy. People often commit suicide over petty things, this is true, but if someone is actually suffering it's just as selfish to force them to live just so you or others avoid feeling that loss as it is to ignore their suffering. Something I can't stand myself is the way people treat emotional suffering as somehow less legitimate than "real" suffering. It is a shame how many people commit suicide over things that are finite. But at what point does something cease to be finite in a finite life? It's selfish BECAUSE killing yourself over petty reasons is stupid. Don't kill yourself, that's stupid. Find another way out and if you can't, ask someone to help. So yes, suicide is selfish, and I don't easily dismiss it as such either.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

28th May 2012, 01:58 PM	#49
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam That's verging on tautology though. Virtually everything we do in life is selfish to some extent. Why single out suicide?Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill." I hate the " Everything is insert word of the argument here to some extent.", line of reasoning. The key point of this is "To some extent." , a punch in the knackers, and a tap on the shoulder both cause sensation, so why is one singled out as mean, while the other is okay? Or to put it in a more direct manner " $1 and $12,000,000,000,000 are both values of money, why would one want to win one versus the other?".
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

28th May 2012, 02:01 PM	#50
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,765	Originally Posted by derchin Opinions? Is it cowardly? No. Quote: Is it wrong to put someone out of their pain and misery? When my pet was having cancer and was suffering , and it was not healable anymore, I put it down. Why should we allow pet to not suffer, and human must be made to drink the bitter water up to the end ? That make no sense. Quote: Is Assisted Suicide murder? Nope, as long as the suicidee is conscious and is as sane as one can be in such situation, (ETA by which I mean able to state his decision if he is not able to do the deed alone due to physical limitation) it isn't. Quote: Is suicide ever justifiable? Sure. Last stage of lethal illness where only suffering and no healing / respite is to be expected. YMMW. Quote: When it comes to suicide who's the selfish one: The family and friends or the person trying to kill themselves? The question of selfinesh does not enter in it IMHO. Your life belongs to you and only you. Whether one may want to assuage family or SO that is one thing, but in the very end , life and death by their nature can only be personal. ETA: and suicidee usually do it due to pain, either mental, or physical. I would contend that when somebody is suffering, and they want to end it, saying that the decision of suicide is selfsih is beyond pale and the trully selfish thing.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life. Last edited by Aepervius; 28th May 2012 at 02:03 PM.

28th May 2012, 02:03 PM	#51
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam That's verging on tautology though. Virtually everything we do in life is selfish to some extent. Why single out suicide? Well, I didn't, it's just what the thread's about. But the potential impact of suicide on others combined with the the self-evident relation to the self means that it must be towards the top of the list of selfish acts. That doesn't make it wrong or unreasonable but in the majority of cases it deserves the label. Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill." Unfortunately that would be true in many cases, although I do see it changing over time.
	__________________

28th May 2012, 02:19 PM	#52
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by Aepervius No. When my pet was having cancer and was suffering , and it was not healable anymore, I put it down. Why should we allow pet to not suffer, and human must be made to drink the bitter water up to the end ? That make no sense. Nope, as long as the suicidee is conscious and is as sane as one can be in such situation, (ETA by which I mean able to state his decision if he is not able to do the deed alone due to physical limitation) it isn't. Sure. Last stage of lethal illness where only suffering and no healing / respite is to be expected. YMMW. The question of selfinesh does not enter in it IMHO. Your life belongs to you and only you. Whether one may want to assuage family or SO that is one thing, but in the very end , life and death by their nature can only be personal. ETA: and suicidee usually do it due to pain, either mental, or physical. I would contend that when somebody is suffering, and they want to end it, saying that the decision of suicide is selfsih is beyond pale and the trully selfish thing. A few comments. First, i have always hated the "We put animals out of their misery." line of reasoning. Because, personally, i don't find that all that humane. Being killed without my consent, in any form is a huge thing i want to avoid. I want to be hooked up to every machine, device, and given every scientifically sound medicine possible before giving up the ghost. When death comes for me, he is either going to be witnessing me taking a pill, or having another do-dad hooked up to my comatose body. And as such, i would treat my animals the same, to me euthanizing a pet is much more about the owner than the pet. We don't want to see the suffering, we have no idea if the pet would prefer to die or not, but we like to think it would because it makes our decision easier. And that isn't to say i assume all animals don't want to die, i am prone to the same bias, that everyone else is, but i can at least take a step back and say i am simply using my own views as a guideline to how i treat my pets. Second, the "selfishness does not enter into it." seems flawed. If a gent were to simply leave his wife and kids in financial distress, we would brand him an *****, and with good cause. Hell, we have laws in place to try and prevent people from doing this, but once you change leave to commit suicide, suddenly it is a morally acceptable action? That simply doesn't make sense. I am all in favor of assisted suicide, heck, as someone who is going to school to become a pharmacist, i wouldn't even have trouble if there was an over the counter suicide pill, somewhat like plan B. Providing the person wanting it could show that they do not have financial, or other, dependents. Making folks sad, sure, they can deal, lots of things make folks sad. But once you are damaging the quality of , or ability to sustain life of others, then you are nothing more than the ***** that dyes his hair, grows a moustache and moves to alaska to get away from his responsibilities.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

28th May 2012, 03:00 PM	#53
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,925	Yeesh, I knew pro-suicide arguments would pop up eventually. I see it as a bizarre case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The moral arc of the universe is truly grand .
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

28th May 2012, 03:29 PM	#54
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,121	Quote: Maybe. Problem is that anyone displaying the behaviour you describe is apt to end up on tranquilizers in hospital somewhere, because the default supposition so clear from many posters here is the dominant one in society- "Anyone contemplating suicide is ill." Of course not everyone who contemplates suicide is mentally ill, but this doesn't change the fact that psychiatry is the body best suited for helping suicidal people. Where do you propose we send them if they need help, to a car mechanic or dentist? Quote: I think I understand you quite clearly. You want to tell me how I can die. :violin: Quote: Yeesh, I knew pro-suicide arguments would pop up eventually. Ya. They always do.

28th May 2012, 04:56 PM	#55
Lolly discombobulated Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Western Australia Posts: 4,575	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Where do you propose we send them if they need help, to a car mechanic or dentist? That's pretty much your only option. The ubiquitous "help" that everyone bleats on about doesn't really exist. It's just a device so that everybody can blame the person for not asking for it. "If only they'd asked for help! Oh dear what a shame that they didn't. If they'd asked for help, fairies would have flown down from the sky and everything would have been solved. But it's ok, we've got a reason to blame them now, we don't need to consider how we wrote them off as selfish when they started whining about how bad they felt and avoided them because they were such a downer and wouldn't listen to our excellent advice as to how they could snap out of it, it's their fault for not asking for help and then for just being a selfish prick by abandoning all of these worthwhile people who deserve the consideration that that big piece of nothing did not. All they had to do was take up jogging, but they were too selfish to listen to me." In cases of mental illness, the person suiciding is no more making a choice to abandon their dependants than a person with cancer or any other terminal illness.
	__________________ Pet Lover http://forums.randi.org/group.php?groupid=45 "When particles of evil and iniquity swarm together, they make a Lolly.": Legend

28th May 2012, 07:09 PM	#56
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,538	Originally Posted by sadhatter A few comments. First, i have always hated the "We put animals out of their misery." A line I learned from my dad in regards to "put it out of my misery" that I found quite enjoyable. "Son you're not putting it out of its misery. You're putting it out of your misery" I feel better myself when I think I've made it feel better.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

28th May 2012, 09:10 PM	#58
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper psychiatry is the body best suited for helping suicidal people. Where do you propose we send them if they need help, to a car mechanic or dentist? A number of suicides are committed by a young and viable person, who becomes wheelchair bound for life in a car accident or something. Still it is a mental problem, compared to those who are in wheelchair without being suicidal, but I fully accept it that a person may prefer death to life in such circumstances.
	Last edited by JJM 777; 28th May 2012 at 09:12 PM.

28th May 2012, 09:17 PM	#59
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by sadhatter Personally i could never do it, but i have zero problem if someone wants to, except for one situation, when my life is on the line. If your sitting in your suburban apartment , life sucks, and you want to off yourself, go nuts. It doesn't harm anyone besides the poor schmuck who has to clean it up. It is your choice, and no one has the right to tell you not to make it. But suicide in, lets say wartime, or if one has dependents, well that is another story. No way to stop it, obviously, but that is when it becomes cowardly. I always tend to think of survival/zombie movies when i think of suicide. There is never a character i hate more ( from a moral standpoint. I hate those folks that treat film like it is meeting a bunch of people, and let moral decisions fictional characters make stop them from enjoying a film. ), than the guy who pulls his own trigger when there is a horde of undead slamming at the gates, or him and his friends just got stranded somewhere in the arctic. Maybe everything would go belly up, but maybe having that one extra body would have been the difference between life and death. But what if that guy who committed suicide was instead bitten by a zombie and turned into one, then he has now swelled the ranks of the zombies and could make all the difference to them. Actually, the other day I watched the Road and there is a very disturbing scene where the guy is teaching his son how to commit suicide. In that particular film, in the world they are in, it could potentially be the best thing to do because life at the hands of some of the people in that film would probably be far worse than death.

28th May 2012, 09:55 PM	#60
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Originally Posted by JJM 777 A number of suicides are committed by a young and viable person, who becomes wheelchair bound for life in a car accident or something. Still it is a mental problem, compared to those who are in wheelchair without being suicidal, but I fully accept it that a person may prefer death to life in such circumstances. There are also degenerative diseases that people get, and know they will get worse and worse, and more and more helpless, and there is no cure. I don't see how anyone could condemn someone for choosing suicide if the alternative is to become a prisoner in one's own body, with no hope of improvement. Personally, I enjoy life, but only while it is of a certain quality. If I were in constant pain, or rendered unable to do things that I like, or become a burden on someone else, I would indeed consider suicide a possibility.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

28th May 2012, 11:22 PM	#61
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,416	I've never been seriously suicidal, but I've ended my life more than once. I ended my life and started a new one when I went off to a military academy, got married and moved to another state. I ended it a decade later when I lost a career and went bankrupt (well, to be honest, that time it was ended for me). So, I wonder if the "I want to end my life" can be interpreted as "ending this life I'm living now" or if that's simply impossible. Radical change seems more doable to me than death. Death could still be an option if things go haywire I guess. I'm also wondering how those in prison for life do it. Certainly, if anyone is stuck in a meaningless existence, those people are. Are they just too stubborn or stupid to see suicide as a way out or does it take a certain mindset to think suicide?
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,416

29th May 2012, 12:39 AM	#62
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,945	Originally Posted by epepke So what should you do? Well, you'll probably just go on doing what you want to do, which is what people do. You're going to have to deal with the fact that, as a result, a lot of people will kill themselves. You probably already have psychic defenses against this, and convince yourself that you're a Good Guy™ who Isn't At Fault™. If you are like this, it's better that you avoid the subject entirely. So what should you do to be a REAL good guy i.e. to GENUINELY NOT be "at fault" and have NO blood on your hands? What is the REAL right thing to do? Just do nothing and leave the suicide alone?
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,945	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

29th May 2012, 12:42 AM	#63
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,945	Originally Posted by epepke We don't need judgment that we're selfish. That, we know, you do for yourself. We don't need the sort of ostentatious "I do not presume to judge them" either. You do that for yourself and your self-image as well. You can either be all judgmental, to convince yourself by denial that you are all safe and superior, or you can be all sympathetic, to convince yourself that you are so good, or you can be all respectful, to convince yourself that you're all respectful, etc. and so forth and so on. None of this is in any way helpful to us. So what do you have to do or not do just to simply not be doing things "for yourself"? Or is that actually not a bad thing?
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,945	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

29th May 2012, 01:03 AM	#64
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,357	Originally Posted by marplots I'm also wondering how those in prison for life do it. Certainly, if anyone is stuck in a meaningless existence, those people are. Are they just too stubborn or stupid to see suicide as a way out or does it take a certain mindset to think suicide? Quote: The suicide rate in prisons is almost 15 times higher than in the general population: in 2002 the rate was 143 per 100,000 compared to 9 per 100,000 in the general population. (The National Service Framework For Mental Health: Five Years On, Department of Health, 2004; Samaritans Information Resource Pack, 2004) http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-...stics/prisons/ (uk figures)
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

29th May 2012, 03:02 AM	#65
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,416	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-...stics/prisons/ (uk figures) Yes, I understand the suicide rate in prison is much higher than out of prison, but still 143 per 100,000 leave a lot of prisoners apparently dealing with their condition. Do they drug them? I'm still curious as to how so many seem to deal with such a hopeless life. I suppose I should think about only those who are in prison for life, no possibility of parole and out of appeals. edit to add: From the Federal Bureau of Prison's website (http://www.bop.gov/inmate_programs/mental.jsp and this is just Federal prisons with no date listed on the site). Quote: "The Bureau's suicide rate is lower than that of the United States population as a whole, and this appears to be related to the agency's rigorous training and prevention efforts." Maybe the US has nicer prisons than Britain.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,416