Swiss factory shooting leaves several dead - Page 2

PhantomWolf · 28th February 2013, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

But, either way, requiring insurance before someone can exercise a right, is absolutely wrong, no matter what right it is referring to.

The right to medical care? The right to freedom of travel?

WildCat · 28th February 2013, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

The right to medical care?

What right is that?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

The right to freedom of travel?

There's no law requiring insurance to travel.

PhantomWolf · 28th February 2013, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

What right is that?

One that the US ignores, go look at the list of Human Rights listed by the UN.

Quote:

There's no law requiring insurance to travel.

No, but there is to own a car. The SCOTUS has already defined that since the best form of self defence is a handgun, and self defence is a right under the 2nd Amendent. Thus handguns are are a protected right.

Under similar logic, since the right to freedom of travel has been stated as a right bound by the 4th Article of the Constitution, and the best form of travel is via a car, owning a car would be a protected right, but one that requires Insurance.

BenBurch · 28th February 2013, 08:20 PM

And in any case, not at all unobtainable, the insurance company wants to make money after all.

But if you have made yourself into a terrible risk, nobody will write your policy.

fuelair · 28th February 2013, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

You can take my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator when you pry my cold, dead fingers....

But, your fingers can't be cold if the C/tri-neutronic battery that powers it is still active. The loose radiation will keep them warm for days!!!

WildCat · 28th February 2013, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

One that the US ignores, go look at the list of Human Rights listed by the UN.

Let me know when the SCOTUS refers to the UN as far as rights are concerned.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

No, but there is to own a car.

Not if you don't drive it on public roads.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

The SCOTUS has already defined that since the best form of self defence is a handgun, and self defence is a right under the 2nd Amendent. Thus handguns are are a protected right.

Under similar logic, since the right to freedom of travel has been stated as a right bound by the 4th Article of the Constitution, and the best form of travel is via a car, owning a car would be a protected right, but one that requires Insurance.

Yeah, good luck with that argument in court. Sounds like something a FOTL would use to explain why he doesn't need a driver's license.

WildCat · 28th February 2013, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

And in any case, not at all unobtainable, the insurance company wants to make money after all.

But if you have made yourself into a terrible risk, nobody will write your policy.

So which insurance company offers such insurance?

Nessie · 1st March 2013, 04:34 AM

The insurance thread is elsewhere. Anyone wish to comment on this topic?

WildCat · 1st March 2013, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The insurance thread is elsewhere. Anyone wish to comment on this topic?

This isn't a gun control topic?

sadhatter · 1st March 2013, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

No guns == no shootings.

And how exactly do you plan to get to 'no guns' ? Even if you magically poof every pre made firearm out of existence it is not rocket science to manufacture a functional firearm, and even easier than that to press rounds. Poorer areas of the world with less access to pre made weapons already show this trend, so we know exactly what would happen.

So even if your goal is to ban every gun ( and again, somehow magically making literally all guns gone. ) , you would also have to ban every precursor to both guns and gunpowder. When these things consist of such materials as pipe and industrial staplers ( to name only two common ingredients with real viable uses.) you couldn't do this without severely impacting trade and people's lives.

So yes, no guns does = no shootings, but it is like saying all we need to do to stop rape is not have rapists. Sure it is a true statement, but not one that can logically be implemented.

Cain · 1st March 2013, 02:34 PM

Switzerland has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, so I strongly doubt those people are dead.

jimbob · 3rd March 2013, 03:49 AM

Switzerland guns: Living with firearms the Swiss way
By Emma Jane Kirby
BBC News, Zurich

Quote:

In 2006, the champion Swiss skier Corrinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were murdered by Corinne's estranged husband, who shot them with his old militia rifle before killing himself.

Since that incident, gun laws concerning army weapons have tightened. Although it is still possible for a former soldier to buy his firearm after he finishes military service, he must provide a justification for keeping the weapon and apply for a permit.

A lot of the guns are not a risk because:

Quote:

"I do as the army advises and I keep the barrel separately from my pistol," he explains seriously. "I keep the barrel in the basement so if anyone breaks into my apartment and finds the gun, it's useless to them."

He shakes out the gun holster. "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007.

Quote:

How to buy a gun in Switzerland
Heavy machine guns and automatic weapons are banned, as are silencers
In most cases the buyer needs a weapon acquisition permit, issued by the cantonal police
This will be refused if the applicant has a criminal record, an addiction or a psychiatric problem
A special permit is needed to carry a gun in public - and is usually issued only to people who work in security, once they have passed theoretical and practical exams
Twenty-six thousand guns were sold legally in Switzerland in 2012 to sportsmen, hunters and collectors

Significantly different from the number of gun sales in the US in 2012:

Quote:

The figures show that there have been 16,808,538 applications in 2012 so far to the end of November

I make that about 17-times greater per-capita gun purchasing in the US than Switzerland.

ETA:
and this info

Quote:

In Switzerland

Purchases of most firearms, either in stores or from individual sellers, require an authorisation from the cantonal police. If an authorisation is not required, buyer and seller must put together a written contract of which a copy must be provided to the police.

Rocket launchers, heavy machine guns, automatic weapons, laser sights, night-vision sights and silencers are banned.

Sports shooters are only allowed to transport their guns from their home to the firing range. Guns and munitions must be kept separate during transport.

Gun licences themselves are required for any person bearing a weapon in a public place. In practice, only security specialists receive one after passing theoretical and practical exams.

Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland.

significantly stricter than the US

WildCat · 3rd March 2013, 07:55 AM

"Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland."

Wow, discrimination based on national origin, that would never fly in the USA for any product or service.

jimbob · 3rd March 2013, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

"Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland."

Wow, discrimination based on national origin, that would never fly in the USA for any product or service.

That struck me too...

ETA: although there are or have been significant terrorist incidents/civil wars in these countries.

P.J. Denyer · 3rd March 2013, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

"Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland."

Wow, discrimination based on national origin, that would never fly in the USA for any product or service.

I may be wrong but I didn't think non US nationals were allowed guns in the US?

WildCat · 3rd March 2013, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

I may be wrong but I didn't think non US nationals were allowed guns in the US?

Any legal resident can buy guns just as citizens can. The US Constitution applies to non-citizens too, unless specifically exempted such as the right to vote or run for office.

28th February 2013, 06:41 PM	#41
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,919	Originally Posted by triforcharity But, either way, requiring insurance before someone can exercise a right, is absolutely wrong, no matter what right it is referring to. The right to medical care? The right to freedom of travel?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

28th February 2013, 08:12 PM	#43
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,919	Originally Posted by WildCat What right is that? One that the US ignores, go look at the list of Human Rights listed by the UN. Quote: There's no law requiring insurance to travel. No, but there is to own a car. The SCOTUS has already defined that since the best form of self defence is a handgun, and self defence is a right under the 2nd Amendent. Thus handguns are are a protected right. Under similar logic, since the right to freedom of travel has been stated as a right bound by the 4th Article of the Constitution, and the best form of travel is via a car, owning a car would be a protected right, but one that requires Insurance.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

28th February 2013, 08:20 PM	#44
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,141	And in any case, not at all unobtainable, the insurance company wants to make money after all. But if you have made yourself into a terrible risk, nobody will write your policy.
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

28th February 2013, 08:56 PM	#45
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,931	Originally Posted by Bikewer You can take my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator when you pry my cold, dead fingers.... But, your fingers can't be cold if the C/tri-neutronic battery that powers it is still active. The loose radiation will keep them warm for days!!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,931	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

1st March 2013, 04:34 AM	#48
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,790	The insurance thread is elsewhere. Anyone wish to comment on this topic?
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

28th February 2013, 06:52 PM	#42
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,009	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf The right to medical care? What right is that? Originally Posted by PhantomWolf The right to freedom of travel? There's no law requiring insurance to travel.

28th February 2013, 09:06 PM	#46
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,009	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf One that the US ignores, go look at the list of Human Rights listed by the UN. Let me know when the SCOTUS refers to the UN as far as rights are concerned. Originally Posted by PhantomWolf No, but there is to own a car. Not if you don't drive it on public roads. Originally Posted by PhantomWolf The SCOTUS has already defined that since the best form of self defence is a handgun, and self defence is a right under the 2nd Amendent. Thus handguns are are a protected right. Under similar logic, since the right to freedom of travel has been stated as a right bound by the 4th Article of the Constitution, and the best form of travel is via a car, owning a car would be a protected right, but one that requires Insurance. Yeah, good luck with that argument in court. Sounds like something a FOTL would use to explain why he doesn't need a driver's license.

28th February 2013, 09:08 PM	#47
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,009	Originally Posted by BenBurch And in any case, not at all unobtainable, the insurance company wants to make money after all. But if you have made yourself into a terrible risk, nobody will write your policy. So which insurance company offers such insurance?

1st March 2013, 05:38 AM	#49
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,009	Originally Posted by Nessie The insurance thread is elsewhere. Anyone wish to comment on this topic? This isn't a gun control topic?

1st March 2013, 02:08 PM	#50
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by BenBurch No guns == no shootings. And how exactly do you plan to get to 'no guns' ? Even if you magically poof every pre made firearm out of existence it is not rocket science to manufacture a functional firearm, and even easier than that to press rounds. Poorer areas of the world with less access to pre made weapons already show this trend, so we know exactly what would happen. So even if your goal is to ban every gun ( and again, somehow magically making literally all guns gone. ) , you would also have to ban every precursor to both guns and gunpowder. When these things consist of such materials as pipe and industrial staplers ( to name only two common ingredients with real viable uses.) you couldn't do this without severely impacting trade and people's lives. So yes, no guns does = no shootings, but it is like saying all we need to do to stop rape is not have rapists. Sure it is a true statement, but not one that can logically be implemented.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

1st March 2013, 02:34 PM	#51
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,935	Switzerland has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, so I strongly doubt those people are dead.
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

3rd March 2013, 03:49 AM	#52
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 5,165	Switzerland guns: Living with firearms the Swiss way By Emma Jane Kirby BBC News, Zurich Quote: In 2006, the champion Swiss skier Corrinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were murdered by Corinne's estranged husband, who shot them with his old militia rifle before killing himself. Since that incident, gun laws concerning army weapons have tightened. Although it is still possible for a former soldier to buy his firearm after he finishes military service, he must provide a justification for keeping the weapon and apply for a permit. A lot of the guns are not a risk because: Quote: "I do as the army advises and I keep the barrel separately from my pistol," he explains seriously. "I keep the barrel in the basement so if anyone breaks into my apartment and finds the gun, it's useless to them." He shakes out the gun holster. "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007. Quote: How to buy a gun in Switzerland Heavy machine guns and automatic weapons are banned, as are silencers In most cases the buyer needs a weapon acquisition permit, issued by the cantonal police This will be refused if the applicant has a criminal record, an addiction or a psychiatric problem A special permit is needed to carry a gun in public - and is usually issued only to people who work in security, once they have passed theoretical and practical exams Twenty-six thousand guns were sold legally in Switzerland in 2012 to sportsmen, hunters and collectors Significantly different from the number of gun sales in the US in 2012: Quote: The figures show that there have been 16,808,538 applications in 2012 so far to the end of November I make that about 17-times greater per-capita gun purchasing in the US than Switzerland. ETA: and this info Quote: In Switzerland Purchases of most firearms, either in stores or from individual sellers, require an authorisation from the cantonal police. If an authorisation is not required, buyer and seller must put together a written contract of which a copy must be provided to the police. Rocket launchers, heavy machine guns, automatic weapons, laser sights, night-vision sights and silencers are banned. Sports shooters are only allowed to transport their guns from their home to the firing range. Guns and munitions must be kept separate during transport. Gun licences themselves are required for any person bearing a weapon in a public place. In practice, only security specialists receive one after passing theoretical and practical exams. Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland. significantly stricter than the US
	__________________ OECD healthcare statistics http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html 2010 Data UK 9.6% of GDP of which 83.2% is state expenditure = 8.0% of GDP from taxes US 17.6% of GDP of which 48.2% is state expenditure = 8.5% of GDP from taxes Last edited by jimbob; 3rd March 2013 at 03:52 AM.

3rd March 2013, 07:55 AM	#53
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,009	"Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland." Wow, discrimination based on national origin, that would never fly in the USA for any product or service.

3rd March 2013, 08:46 AM	#54
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Derbyshire, UK Posts: 5,165	Originally Posted by WildCat "Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland." Wow, discrimination based on national origin, that would never fly in the USA for any product or service. That struck me too... ETA: although there are or have been significant terrorist incidents/civil wars in these countries.
	__________________ OECD healthcare statistics http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html 2010 Data UK 9.6% of GDP of which 83.2% is state expenditure = 8.0% of GDP from taxes US 17.6% of GDP of which 48.2% is state expenditure = 8.5% of GDP from taxes Last edited by jimbob; 3rd March 2013 at 08:48 AM.

3rd March 2013, 08:56 AM	#55
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,129	Originally Posted by WildCat "Nationals from Sri Lanka, Algeria, Turkey and Albania as well as from ex-Yugoslavia, are not permitted to buy and carry weapons in Switzerland." Wow, discrimination based on national origin, that would never fly in the USA for any product or service. I may be wrong but I didn't think non US nationals were allowed guns in the US?
	Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 3rd March 2013 at 08:58 AM.

3rd March 2013, 10:22 AM	#56
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,009	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer I may be wrong but I didn't think non US nationals were allowed guns in the US? Any legal resident can buy guns just as citizens can. The US Constitution applies to non-citizens too, unless specifically exempted such as the right to vote or run for office.