Public Nudity. - Page 6

MontagK505 · 7th December 2012, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please.

The problem with this argument is, at the other extreme one could demand everyone cover themselves from the top of their head to the soles of their feet so they can convey to their children what they think the "proper boundaries are".
What most of us on this forum presently accept as "proper boundaries" would not have been publicly allowed in 19th early 20th century US, Europe.

Which standard do you select? And what's the justification making that standard be the one that everyone else has to follow?

Craig4 · 7th December 2012, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by MontagK505

The problem with this argument is, at the other extreme one could demand everyone cover themselves from the top of their head to the soles of their feet so they can convey to their children what they think the "proper boundaries are".
What most of us on this forum presently accept as "proper boundaries" would not have been publicly allowed in 19th early 20th century US, Europe.

Which standard do you select? And what's the justification making that standard be the one that everyone else has to follow?

That's why you can have laws that spell out exactly what is and is not permissible. You can write laws that don't require the wearing of a hijab and at the same time don't allow you to walk down Main Street in your birthday suit. Of course this only works in a functioning democracy.

appalling · 8th December 2012, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by MontagK505

The problem with this argument is, at the other extreme one could demand everyone cover themselves from the top of their head to the soles of their feet so they can convey to their children what they think the "proper boundaries are".
What most of us on this forum presently accept as "proper boundaries" would not have been publicly allowed in 19th early 20th century US, Europe.

Which standard do you select? And what's the justification making that standard be the one that everyone else has to follow?

I agree we're talking public morality at this point.

I'd just point out that early Nineteenth Century was more of a mess of nudity, before habits and legislation became more prominent. The past was a gnarly mix of prohibition and excess, excess and prohibition rather than only more severe moralities.

From the comment threads of yesteryear....

Quote:

Reverend Francis Kilvert objects to swimming in bathing drawers at Shanklin, Isle of Wight:

"Bathing yesterday and to-day ... At Shanklin one has to adopt the detestable custom of bathing in drawers. If ladies don't like to see men naked why don't they keep away from the sight? To-day I had a pair of drawers given me which I could not keep on. The rough waves stripped them off and tore them round my ancles [sic]. While thus fettered I was seized and flung down by a heavy sea which retreating suddenly left me lying naked on the shingle from which I rose streaming with blood. After this I took the wretched and dangerous rag off and of course there were some ladies looking on as I came up out of the water."

It shows that legislation spikes are rarely imposed to codify already-common behaviour, we don't have laws that toast must be buttered, for instance; it's imposed to deal with behaviour thought to occur in scope.

Darth Rotor · 8th December 2012, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

There is just not enough quality public nudity.

The quality is the key.

Originally Posted by Janadele

It is the obsession with carnal matters which brings mental problems.

It can.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

We are completely serious. Sexual repression is the enemy of good mental health.

Can be.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

4 pages of people evoking potential health and safety hazards and unsightliness of public nudity, and then one single person mentions religious sexual morality and suddenly we fixate on that as if it's the only issue.

How many respondents to this thread who seem to be opposed to public nudity do we imagine are actually Christians who think nudity is bad because it makes Jesus cry, despite what they actually say?

Some people have axes to grind, and can't leave the religious stuff in the religion forum.

That said, I am glad that the priests and bishops in the area where we live don't run about nude.

Originally Posted by MontagK505

Being male and heterosexual, I find good-looking nude females in public make for great eye-candy. Note there are several web sites devoted to this subject.

ME too, however, it's been a few decades since I was in the kind of shape to wander out of the front door nude and not worry about making the neighbors look away in horror. As a courtesy to them, I don't wander about naked in the neighborhood.

Originally Posted by MontagK505

I'm not sure there are specific laws against making people nauseated.

If there were, reality TV would go off the air.

FYI

Originally Posted by BStrong

I've seen a bit of it locally, not a fan.

Nude beaches, clothing optional, whatever, OK - at the coffe shop, not so much.

On board with that one.

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I am ALWAYS naked. Under my clothes.

Whoa, I just realized that I am too. Should I now blush?

Originally Posted by Piggy

The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please.

As ever, piggy arrives with common sense.

Thanks, amigo.

appalling · 8th December 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Piggy

The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please.

This also makes it the best argument against rock and roll, public education, Mark Twain, and atheism. Replace the bold bit with any of those terms.

While I respect how difficult it is to parent in an age without simple morals, I don't want legislation that is based wholly on making it easy on distressed parents.

It's fine to give it some consideration but I don't want all legislation to be founded on a parent not wanting to have any difficult conversations. This is the kind of argument that people use to ban science, non-hagiographic history, or the word "gay" in schools. Because it leads to difficulties for parents.

Skeptical Greg · 8th December 2012, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please.

That would just make me wonder what other parenting challenges that mom was faced with.

PhantomWolf · 8th December 2012, 02:15 PM

I know it's pretty much been said, but who gives this mum in San Fran the right to determine what "the proper boundaries" for society are?

bruto · 8th December 2012, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please.

That seems a reasonable enough idea, and I would agree that public nudity involves crossing a social boundary which most of us would not cross, and which it's appropriate to teach But does this mean that legislation is required? Your argument suggests that a parent cannot teach boundaries that disagree with what is legally permitted, but it doesn't stop people now. Depending on your ideas and your religion, there are a great number of boundaries we consider it appropriate or at least permissible to teach or try to teach, including clothes which we find decent versus indecent, offensive language, body modifications, and so on. A rather large percentage of the population would probably include the various public manifestations of homosexuality. If we cannot teach our kids "proper" boundaries without making a law, whom do we trust to declare, perhaps for the indefinite future and for every citizen everywhere for every reason, what is "proper."

There are people walking around with padlocks for earrings, tattoos on their cheeks, T-shirts too obscene to read aloud, shaved heads and victorian dresses with a codpiece. It's been a few years, but I don't recall that it was all that difficult to tell my kids "that's not a good idea, don't do it."

Arcade22 · 8th December 2012, 03:57 PM

So far I've not seen any good argument on why it should be illegal to be nude in public by itself. Then again it's a non-issue for me.

Originally Posted by MontagK505

Being male and heterosexual, I find good-looking nude females in public make for great eye-candy. Note there are several web sites devoted to this subject.

You don't have to be nude to appear lewd in public. I remember seeing a picture of some gay pride thing in America where three teenage boys were looking more provocative than it thought was allowed in that country. Although i guess the rules might have been different considering the event...

MontagK505 · 8th December 2012, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

So far I've not seen any good argument on why it should be illegal to be nude in public by itself. Then again it's a non-issue for me.

You don't have to be nude to appear lewd in public. I remember seeing a picture of some gay pride thing in America where three teenage boys were looking more provocative than it thought was allowed in that country. Although i guess the rules might have been different considering the event...

Most of the Nude in Public websites that I've seen show young adult women merely walking nude through street markets, board walks etc.

BobTheCoward · 9th December 2012, 08:10 PM

This is going to make me sound crazy but here me out.

I was watching an episode of "Politically Incorrect" or some such show. They discussed this issue and then someone asked, "Well you must support sex in public then". The other replied "Of course not, nobody does."

Well, I support it. Why is it something done in private? It seems as natural as any other human activity. Obviously, with 7 billion people on Earth, sex happens quite a few times. I can't see anything distasteful about it.

Skeptical Greg · 9th December 2012, 08:32 PM

Sounds like you haven't seen John Goodman and Roseanne Barr have sex in public..

RedRatSnake · 9th December 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Sounds like you haven't seen John Goodman and Roseanne Barr have sex in public..

Watching people having sex in public is one of those dangerous kinda things that is a total turn on ~

halleyscomet · 11th December 2012, 11:20 AM

It's astounding how quickly public nudity becomes mundane once it's accepted. I remember being part of a mixed-gender group running around in the woods in a rainstorm naked and covered in mud, before we showered under a rain spout. It started off as kinda sexy, but soon it was just good, clean fun, a bracing run through cold water.

It's only our obsession with covering up the naughty bits that makes them naughty and taboo.

Originally Posted by Janadele

It is the obsession with carnal matters which brings mental problems.

Obsession? Sure, it can be detrimental. A healthy interest however can lead to all sorts of fun with your significant other / partners. I highly recommend the book "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns" for an exploration of all sorts of fun things married couples can try. It's surprising how much of D/s is perfectly compatible with conservative Christianity and Mormon ideals of patriarchy. For lifestylers it can be downright complimentary.

Just as you can become a better cook by reading a cookbook, you can become a better lover by studying the works of others. There are a number of web sites offering video documentaries of a variety of techniques and practices for mutual marital enjoyment.

appalling · 11th December 2012, 12:03 PM

It's interesting that a discussion of the legality of public nudity ends up being about whether it's a good thing for spectators.

-Should it be legal to not wear a hat in public?
-Only if I am interested in seeing new hairstyles, there could be no other reason to allow it.

halleyscomet · 11th December 2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by appalling

It's interesting that a discussion of the legality of public nudity ends up being about whether it's a good thing for spectators.

-Should it be legal to not wear a hat in public?
-Only if I am interested in seeing new hairstyles, there could be no other reason to allow it.

One issue I see with public nudity is one of hygiene. If a guy normally leaves skid-marks in his unders, I don't want to sit on a bus seat after he has vacated it. That said, I suspect such individuals would improve their commode hygiene practices if they were wandering around with the cleanliness of their rump on public display.

The other major issue is that in current society a woman who is sexually assaulted while naked in public is less likely to see her rapist convicted. This is the same problem with women who are sexually assaulted while dressed in revealing clothing. This however would not be rectified by forcing people to wear more clothing, but by dealing with the issue of societal slut-shaming.

Skeptical Greg · 11th December 2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

One issue I see with public nudity is one of hygiene. If a guy normally leaves skid-marks in his unders, I don't want to sit on a bus seat after he has vacated it. That said, I suspect such individuals would improve their commode hygiene practices if they were wandering around with the cleanliness of their rump on public display.
....

We were assured early in the thread that they would use a towel, and always make sure the right side is down ..

While it wasn't mentioned specifically, I'm confident these towels would be laundered often enough that we need not be concerned about migration from one side of the towel to the other..

PhantomWolf · 11th December 2012, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

We were assured early in the thread that they would use a towel, and always make sure the right side is down ..

While it wasn't mentioned specifically, I'm confident these towels would be laundered often enough that we need not be concerned about migration from one side of the towel to the other..

Well of course if you were significantly worried about it, you could always carry your own towel....

appalling · 11th December 2012, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

One issue I see with public nudity is one of hygiene. If a guy normally leaves skid-marks in his unders, I don't want to sit on a bus seat after he has vacated it. That said, I suspect such individuals would improve their commode hygiene practices if they were wandering around with the cleanliness of their rump on public display.

Public toilet seats. Should they be legal? (But I've probably said all I'd care to say about hygiene issues earlier in the thread.)

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

The other major issue is that in current society a woman who is sexually assaulted while naked in public is less likely to see her rapist convicted. This is the same problem with women who are sexually assaulted while dressed in revealing clothing. This however would not be rectified by forcing people to wear more clothing, but by dealing with the issue of societal slut-shaming.

I agree with your proposed solution. "Look at how she was dressed (or not)" is an irrelevant argument and is increasingly looked that way by courts.

halleyscomet · 11th December 2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

We were assured early in the thread that they would use a towel, and always make sure the right side is down ..

While it wasn't mentioned specifically, I'm confident these towels would be laundered often enough that we need not be concerned about migration from one side of the towel to the other..

Ahhh, in which case that concern has already been addressed.

Originally Posted by appalling

I agree with your proposed solution. "Look at how she was dressed (or not)" is an irrelevant argument and is increasingly looked that way by courts.

This is a good thing for everyone except rapists. Unless we plan to go back to the Biblical "You rape her, you bought her" process for handling rape, anything that makes life harder for rapists is probably a good thing.

bruto · 11th December 2012, 07:25 PM

A few of the dairy farmers around here might gain by taking their clothes off. Just sayin'.

Multivac · 12th December 2012, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Well of course if you were significantly worried about it, you could always carry your own towel....

You should always know where your towel is!

The Hitch Hikers Guide to The alaxy has this to say about towels:

"A towel, it says, is about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have. Partly it has great practical value - you can wrap it around you for warmth as you bound across the cold moons of Jaglan Beta; you can lie on it on the brilliant marble-sanded beaches of Santraginus V, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it beneath the stars which shine so redly on the desert world of Kakrafoon; use it to sail a mini raft down the slow heavy river Moth; wet it for use in hand-to- hand-combat; wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or to avoid the gaze of the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal (a mindboggingly stupid animal, it assumes that if you can't see it, it can't see you - daft as a bush, but very ravenous); you can wave your towel in emergencies as a distress signal, and of course dry yourself off with it if it still seems to be clean enough.

More importantly, a towel has immense psychological value. For some reason, if a strag (strag: non-hitch hiker) discovers that a hitch hiker has his towel with him, he will automatically assume that he is also in possession of a toothbrush, face flannel, soap, tin of biscuits, flask, compass, map, ball of string, gnat spray, wet weather gear, space suit etc., etc. Furthermore, the strag will then happily lend the hitch hiker any of these or a dozen other items that the hitch hiker might accidentally have "lost". What the strag will think is that any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still knows where his towel is is clearly a man to be reckoned with."

BenBurch · 12th December 2012, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Slocie's

Watching people having sex in public is one of those dangerous kinda things that is a total turn on ~

Not dangerous at the right clubs...

Prometheus · 13th December 2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Not dangerous at the right clubs...

Doesn't being in a club where it's allowed take away half the fun? I enjoy the risk almost more than the sex, and I've only been caught three or four times.

BenBurch · 13th December 2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Doesn't being in a club where it's allowed take away half the fun? I enjoy the risk almost more than the sex, and I've only been caught three or four times.

For some people, of course!

But most of us wouldn't like to be arrested while having fun.

(Mind you, some people would get off on being arrested, at least at first.)

Prometheus · 13th December 2012, 10:47 AM

I guess. Never got arrested. The most common reaction from ordinary people is just stunned embarrassment, then they hurry away like they did something wrong.

BenBurch · 13th December 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I guess. Never got arrested. The most common reaction from ordinary people is just stunned embarrassment, then they hurry away like they did something wrong.

Happened across a couple of punk chicks doing it in the park once. They were not happy that I stopped to watch (from quite some distance away, what's more) because it's not often you see a lesbian fisting scene in the park. I figure you don't go do this unless you want to be watched.

halleyscomet · 13th December 2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Happened across a couple of punk chicks doing it in the park once. They were not happy that I stopped to watch (from quite some distance away, what's more) because it's not often you see a lesbian fisting scene in the park. I figure you don't go do this unless you want to be watched.

What town was this in and what park?

BenBurch · 13th December 2012, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

What town was this in and what park?

Elgin, IL, Lords Park, 1984 or 1985.

halleyscomet · 13th December 2012, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Elgin, IL, Lords Park, 1984 or 1985.

I dated a woman from Elgin, IL in my college days. She was not, however, a punk, and she would have been in grade school in the mid 1980's.

7th December 2012, 10:06 PM	#201
MontagK505 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Peoples Republick of Kalifornia Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by Piggy The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please. The problem with this argument is, at the other extreme one could demand everyone cover themselves from the top of their head to the soles of their feet so they can convey to their children what they think the "proper boundaries are". What most of us on this forum presently accept as "proper boundaries" would not have been publicly allowed in 19th early 20th century US, Europe. Which standard do you select? And what's the justification making that standard be the one that everyone else has to follow?
	__________________ Self deception is the root of all evil. Political correctness is linguistic Fascism. - P.D. James Last edited by MontagK505; 7th December 2012 at 10:10 PM.

7th December 2012, 10:54 PM	#202
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by MontagK505 The problem with this argument is, at the other extreme one could demand everyone cover themselves from the top of their head to the soles of their feet so they can convey to their children what they think the "proper boundaries are". What most of us on this forum presently accept as "proper boundaries" would not have been publicly allowed in 19th early 20th century US, Europe. Which standard do you select? And what's the justification making that standard be the one that everyone else has to follow? That's why you can have laws that spell out exactly what is and is not permissible. You can write laws that don't require the wearing of a hijab and at the same time don't allow you to walk down Main Street in your birthday suit. Of course this only works in a functioning democracy.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

8th December 2012, 10:07 AM	#203
appalling Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Beyond the reach of your cars. Posts: 320	Originally Posted by MontagK505 The problem with this argument is, at the other extreme one could demand everyone cover themselves from the top of their head to the soles of their feet so they can convey to their children what they think the "proper boundaries are". What most of us on this forum presently accept as "proper boundaries" would not have been publicly allowed in 19th early 20th century US, Europe. Which standard do you select? And what's the justification making that standard be the one that everyone else has to follow? I agree we're talking public morality at this point. I'd just point out that early Nineteenth Century was more of a mess of nudity, before habits and legislation became more prominent. The past was a gnarly mix of prohibition and excess, excess and prohibition rather than only more severe moralities. From the comment threads of yesteryear.... Quote: Reverend Francis Kilvert objects to swimming in bathing drawers at Shanklin, Isle of Wight: "Bathing yesterday and to-day ... At Shanklin one has to adopt the detestable custom of bathing in drawers. If ladies don't like to see men naked why don't they keep away from the sight? To-day I had a pair of drawers given me which I could not keep on. The rough waves stripped them off and tore them round my ancles [sic]. While thus fettered I was seized and flung down by a heavy sea which retreating suddenly left me lying naked on the shingle from which I rose streaming with blood. After this I took the wretched and dangerous rag off and of course there were some ladies looking on as I came up out of the water." It shows that legislation spikes are rarely imposed to codify already-common behaviour, we don't have laws that toast must be buttered, for instance; it's imposed to deal with behaviour thought to occur in scope.
	Last edited by appalling; 8th December 2012 at 10:12 AM.

8th December 2012, 10:41 AM	#204
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,225	Originally Posted by fuelair There is just not enough quality public nudity. The quality is the key. Originally Posted by Janadele It is the obsession with carnal matters which brings mental problems. It can. Originally Posted by arthwollipot We are completely serious. Sexual repression is the enemy of good mental health. Can be. Originally Posted by Checkmite 4 pages of people evoking potential health and safety hazards and unsightliness of public nudity, and then one single person mentions religious sexual morality and suddenly we fixate on that as if it's the only issue. How many respondents to this thread who seem to be opposed to public nudity do we imagine are actually Christians who think nudity is bad because it makes Jesus cry, despite what they actually say? Some people have axes to grind, and can't leave the religious stuff in the religion forum. That said, I am glad that the priests and bishops in the area where we live don't run about nude. Originally Posted by MontagK505 Being male and heterosexual, I find good-looking nude females in public make for great eye-candy. Note there are several web sites devoted to this subject. ME too, however, it's been a few decades since I was in the kind of shape to wander out of the front door nude and not worry about making the neighbors look away in horror. As a courtesy to them, I don't wander about naked in the neighborhood. Originally Posted by MontagK505 I'm not sure there are specific laws against making people nauseated. If there were, reality TV would go off the air. FYI Originally Posted by BStrong I've seen a bit of it locally, not a fan. Nude beaches, clothing optional, whatever, OK - at the coffe shop, not so much. On board with that one. Originally Posted by BenBurch I am ALWAYS naked. Under my clothes. Whoa, I just realized that I am too. Should I now blush? Originally Posted by Piggy The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please. As ever, piggy arrives with common sense. Thanks, amigo.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

8th December 2012, 01:54 PM	#206
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,872	Originally Posted by Piggy The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please. That would just make me wonder what other parenting challenges that mom was faced with.
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

8th December 2012, 11:04 AM	#205
appalling Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Beyond the reach of your cars. Posts: 320	Originally Posted by Piggy The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please. This also makes it the best argument against rock and roll, public education, Mark Twain, and atheism. Replace the bold bit with any of those terms. While I respect how difficult it is to parent in an age without simple morals, I don't want legislation that is based wholly on making it easy on distressed parents. It's fine to give it some consideration but I don't want all legislation to be founded on a parent not wanting to have any difficult conversations. This is the kind of argument that people use to ban science, non-hagiographic history, or the word "gay" in schools. Because it leads to difficulties for parents.

8th December 2012, 02:15 PM	#207
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,891	I know it's pretty much been said, but who gives this mum in San Fran the right to determine what "the proper boundaries" for society are?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

8th December 2012, 02:25 PM	#208
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,180	Originally Posted by Piggy The best argument I've heard against public nudity came from a mom in San Francisco, who said that it made it very difficult for her to convey to her kids what the proper boundaries were. I understand what she means, and for me, that's sufficient reason to accept a limitation on my freedom to do as I please. That seems a reasonable enough idea, and I would agree that public nudity involves crossing a social boundary which most of us would not cross, and which it's appropriate to teach But does this mean that legislation is required? Your argument suggests that a parent cannot teach boundaries that disagree with what is legally permitted, but it doesn't stop people now. Depending on your ideas and your religion, there are a great number of boundaries we consider it appropriate or at least permissible to teach or try to teach, including clothes which we find decent versus indecent, offensive language, body modifications, and so on. A rather large percentage of the population would probably include the various public manifestations of homosexuality. If we cannot teach our kids "proper" boundaries without making a law, whom do we trust to declare, perhaps for the indefinite future and for every citizen everywhere for every reason, what is "proper." There are people walking around with padlocks for earrings, tattoos on their cheeks, T-shirts too obscene to read aloud, shaved heads and victorian dresses with a codpiece. It's been a few years, but I don't recall that it was all that difficult to tell my kids "that's not a good idea, don't do it."
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

8th December 2012, 03:57 PM	#209
Arcade22 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Västerbotten, Sweden Posts: 1,823	So far I've not seen any good argument on why it should be illegal to be nude in public by itself. Then again it's a non-issue for me. Originally Posted by MontagK505 Being male and heterosexual, I find good-looking nude females in public make for great eye-candy. Note there are several web sites devoted to this subject. You don't have to be nude to appear lewd in public. I remember seeing a picture of some gay pride thing in America where three teenage boys were looking more provocative than it thought was allowed in that country. Although i guess the rules might have been different considering the event...
	__________________ The habit of the religious way of thinking has biased our mind so grievously that we are — terrified at ourselves in our nakedness and naturalness; it has degraded us so that we deem ourselves depraved by nature, born devils. Max Stirner

8th December 2012, 05:53 PM	#210
MontagK505 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Peoples Republick of Kalifornia Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by Arcade22 So far I've not seen any good argument on why it should be illegal to be nude in public by itself. Then again it's a non-issue for me. You don't have to be nude to appear lewd in public. I remember seeing a picture of some gay pride thing in America where three teenage boys were looking more provocative than it thought was allowed in that country. Although i guess the rules might have been different considering the event... Most of the Nude in Public websites that I've seen show young adult women merely walking nude through street markets, board walks etc.
	__________________ Self deception is the root of all evil. Political correctness is linguistic Fascism. - P.D. James

9th December 2012, 08:10 PM	#211
BobTheCoward Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 699	This is going to make me sound crazy but here me out. I was watching an episode of "Politically Incorrect" or some such show. They discussed this issue and then someone asked, "Well you must support sex in public then". The other replied "Of course not, nobody does." Well, I support it. Why is it something done in private? It seems as natural as any other human activity. Obviously, with 7 billion people on Earth, sex happens quite a few times. I can't see anything distasteful about it.
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9th December 2012, 08:32 PM	#212
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,872	Sounds like you haven't seen John Goodman and Roseanne Barr have sex in public..
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9th December 2012, 10:08 PM	#213
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg Sounds like you haven't seen John Goodman and Roseanne Barr have sex in public.. Watching people having sex in public is one of those dangerous kinda things that is a total turn on ~

11th December 2012, 11:20 AM	#214
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	It's astounding how quickly public nudity becomes mundane once it's accepted. I remember being part of a mixed-gender group running around in the woods in a rainstorm naked and covered in mud, before we showered under a rain spout. It started off as kinda sexy, but soon it was just good, clean fun, a bracing run through cold water. It's only our obsession with covering up the naughty bits that makes them naughty and taboo. Originally Posted by Janadele It is the obsession with carnal matters which brings mental problems. Obsession? Sure, it can be detrimental. A healthy interest however can lead to all sorts of fun with your significant other / partners. I highly recommend the book "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns" for an exploration of all sorts of fun things married couples can try. It's surprising how much of D/s is perfectly compatible with conservative Christianity and Mormon ideals of patriarchy. For lifestylers it can be downright complimentary. Just as you can become a better cook by reading a cookbook, you can become a better lover by studying the works of others. There are a number of web sites offering video documentaries of a variety of techniques and practices for mutual marital enjoyment.
	Last edited by halleyscomet; 11th December 2012 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Fixing a typo

11th December 2012, 12:03 PM	#215
appalling Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Beyond the reach of your cars. Posts: 320	It's interesting that a discussion of the legality of public nudity ends up being about whether it's a good thing for spectators. -Should it be legal to not wear a hat in public? -Only if I am interested in seeing new hairstyles, there could be no other reason to allow it.

11th December 2012, 12:34 PM	#216
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	Originally Posted by appalling It's interesting that a discussion of the legality of public nudity ends up being about whether it's a good thing for spectators. -Should it be legal to not wear a hat in public? -Only if I am interested in seeing new hairstyles, there could be no other reason to allow it. One issue I see with public nudity is one of hygiene. If a guy normally leaves skid-marks in his unders, I don't want to sit on a bus seat after he has vacated it. That said, I suspect such individuals would improve their commode hygiene practices if they were wandering around with the cleanliness of their rump on public display. The other major issue is that in current society a woman who is sexually assaulted while naked in public is less likely to see her rapist convicted. This is the same problem with women who are sexually assaulted while dressed in revealing clothing. This however would not be rectified by forcing people to wear more clothing, but by dealing with the issue of societal slut-shaming.

11th December 2012, 12:39 PM	#217
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,872	Originally Posted by halleyscomet One issue I see with public nudity is one of hygiene. If a guy normally leaves skid-marks in his unders, I don't want to sit on a bus seat after he has vacated it. That said, I suspect such individuals would improve their commode hygiene practices if they were wandering around with the cleanliness of their rump on public display. .... We were assured early in the thread that they would use a towel, and always make sure the right side is down .. While it wasn't mentioned specifically, I'm confident these towels would be laundered often enough that we need not be concerned about migration from one side of the towel to the other..
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11th December 2012, 12:59 PM	#218
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,891	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg We were assured early in the thread that they would use a towel, and always make sure the right side is down .. While it wasn't mentioned specifically, I'm confident these towels would be laundered often enough that we need not be concerned about migration from one side of the towel to the other.. Well of course if you were significantly worried about it, you could always carry your own towel....
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11th December 2012, 01:01 PM	#219
appalling Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Beyond the reach of your cars. Posts: 320	Originally Posted by halleyscomet One issue I see with public nudity is one of hygiene. If a guy normally leaves skid-marks in his unders, I don't want to sit on a bus seat after he has vacated it. That said, I suspect such individuals would improve their commode hygiene practices if they were wandering around with the cleanliness of their rump on public display. Public toilet seats. Should they be legal? (But I've probably said all I'd care to say about hygiene issues earlier in the thread.) Originally Posted by halleyscomet The other major issue is that in current society a woman who is sexually assaulted while naked in public is less likely to see her rapist convicted. This is the same problem with women who are sexually assaulted while dressed in revealing clothing. This however would not be rectified by forcing people to wear more clothing, but by dealing with the issue of societal slut-shaming. I agree with your proposed solution. "Look at how she was dressed (or not)" is an irrelevant argument and is increasingly looked that way by courts.

11th December 2012, 01:19 PM	#220
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg We were assured early in the thread that they would use a towel, and always make sure the right side is down .. While it wasn't mentioned specifically, I'm confident these towels would be laundered often enough that we need not be concerned about migration from one side of the towel to the other.. Ahhh, in which case that concern has already been addressed. Originally Posted by appalling I agree with your proposed solution. "Look at how she was dressed (or not)" is an irrelevant argument and is increasingly looked that way by courts. This is a good thing for everyone except rapists. Unless we plan to go back to the Biblical "You rape her, you bought her" process for handling rape, anything that makes life harder for rapists is probably a good thing.

11th December 2012, 07:25 PM	#221
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,180	A few of the dairy farmers around here might gain by taking their clothes off. Just sayin'.
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12th December 2012, 02:51 AM	#222
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,931	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Well of course if you were significantly worried about it, you could always carry your own towel.... You should always know where your towel is! The Hitch Hikers Guide to The alaxy has this to say about towels: "A towel, it says, is about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have. Partly it has great practical value - you can wrap it around you for warmth as you bound across the cold moons of Jaglan Beta; you can lie on it on the brilliant marble-sanded beaches of Santraginus V, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it beneath the stars which shine so redly on the desert world of Kakrafoon; use it to sail a mini raft down the slow heavy river Moth; wet it for use in hand-to- hand-combat; wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or to avoid the gaze of the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal (a mindboggingly stupid animal, it assumes that if you can't see it, it can't see you - daft as a bush, but very ravenous); you can wave your towel in emergencies as a distress signal, and of course dry yourself off with it if it still seems to be clean enough. More importantly, a towel has immense psychological value. For some reason, if a strag (strag: non-hitch hiker) discovers that a hitch hiker has his towel with him, he will automatically assume that he is also in possession of a toothbrush, face flannel, soap, tin of biscuits, flask, compass, map, ball of string, gnat spray, wet weather gear, space suit etc., etc. Furthermore, the strag will then happily lend the hitch hiker any of these or a dozen other items that the hitch hiker might accidentally have "lost". What the strag will think is that any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still knows where his towel is is clearly a man to be reckoned with."

12th December 2012, 05:52 AM	#223
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,078	Originally Posted by Slocie's Watching people having sex in public is one of those dangerous kinda things that is a total turn on ~ Not dangerous at the right clubs...
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13th December 2012, 10:00 AM	#224
Prometheus Acolyte of Víðarr Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: North of Reality Posts: 42,966	Originally Posted by BenBurch Not dangerous at the right clubs... Doesn't being in a club where it's allowed take away half the fun? I enjoy the risk almost more than the sex, and I've only been caught three or four times.
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13th December 2012, 10:05 AM	#225
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,078	Originally Posted by Prometheus Doesn't being in a club where it's allowed take away half the fun? I enjoy the risk almost more than the sex, and I've only been caught three or four times. For some people, of course! But most of us wouldn't like to be arrested while having fun. (Mind you, some people would get off on being arrested, at least at first.)
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13th December 2012, 10:47 AM	#226
Prometheus Acolyte of Víðarr Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: North of Reality Posts: 42,966	I guess. Never got arrested. The most common reaction from ordinary people is just stunned embarrassment, then they hurry away like they did something wrong.
	__________________ As Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy." "I find your lack of pith disturbing," - Darth Rotor .......... Don't be offended. I'm not calling you a serial killer. -- Ron Tomkins.

13th December 2012, 11:08 AM	#227
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,078	Originally Posted by Prometheus I guess. Never got arrested. The most common reaction from ordinary people is just stunned embarrassment, then they hurry away like they did something wrong. Happened across a couple of punk chicks doing it in the park once. They were not happy that I stopped to watch (from quite some distance away, what's more) because it's not often you see a lesbian fisting scene in the park. I figure you don't go do this unless you want to be watched.
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13th December 2012, 11:54 AM	#228
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	Originally Posted by BenBurch Happened across a couple of punk chicks doing it in the park once. They were not happy that I stopped to watch (from quite some distance away, what's more) because it's not often you see a lesbian fisting scene in the park. I figure you don't go do this unless you want to be watched. What town was this in and what park?

13th December 2012, 12:56 PM	#229
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,078	Originally Posted by halleyscomet What town was this in and what park? Elgin, IL, Lords Park, 1984 or 1985.
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13th December 2012, 01:26 PM	#230
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	Originally Posted by BenBurch Elgin, IL, Lords Park, 1984 or 1985. I dated a woman from Elgin, IL in my college days. She was not, however, a punk, and she would have been in grade school in the mid 1980's.