The medical model today - Page 3

fuelair · 27th January 2013, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

We should follow his example of never studying anything.

Well, up until he said vile things about another forum member and I banished him from my reading, it was clearly obvious that any time he was supposed to be studying was clearly.wasted.

dafydd · 27th January 2013, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Paul W

I had a girlfriend once who washed her hair in vinegar. She said the vinegar made her hair glossy.

I just reckoned that it made her smell like fish and chips.

Varnish would make your hair glossy too.

ElMondoHummus · 27th January 2013, 12:53 PM

Well, regardless of whether he's a Scientology advocate or not, one thing remains certain. This statement:

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Without evidence for mental illness, nor even a definition that works...

... is just plain, outright wrong. It's notable that he hasn't even tried to support this with argument, he's just stated it as axiomatic. When your premise is off, the rest of your argument is going to suffer. You can choose to take the DSM-IV classifications as your starting point of research and then go look up the body of knowledge behind those to find the evidence of mental disorders existing, or you can choose the ICD-10 and do the same there, but either way, a blanket statement about no evidence existing is simply, demonstrably wrong.

The sad thing is, if the claim was limited to criticism about the current state of knowledge and the large margins of uncertainty, he'd find tons of support - legitimate, informed support - for the mindset and at least a willingness to entertain claims. But trying to claim that the field's base of knowledge is nonexistent is a whole other level. That's the point where the criticism becomes seen as uninformed, and therefore dismissed outright.

ElMondoHummus · 27th January 2013, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Paul W

I had a girlfriend once who washed her hair in vinegar. She said the vinegar made her hair glossy.

Glossy? I thought the point of acidic hair treatments was to make the hair soft.

Then again, what do I know? I have a damn near buzz cut and use any ole shampoo in the shower, so it's not like I experiment any with my hair.

Originally Posted by Paul W

I just reckoned that it made her smell like fish and chips.

Oddly enough, that turns me on...

The Don · 28th January 2013, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Lifestyle choice. Simply that.

Yes, he chose to have those terrifying paralysing panic attacks

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Make no mistake, he would not have got support from the psychiatric clutch. They are quite solidly against supporting natural processes and resolutions, preferring instead a regime of emotional and social suppression.

Strangely enough when he was on his medication and attending his CBT sessions he felt so much better - so much better that he felt that he no longer required the medication or CBT sessions, went off his medication and ended up back in his cycle.

I'm not claiming that treatment is always successful (or indeed is ever wholly successful) but to dismiss it all and claim instead that there isn't a brain chemistry component to many metal disorders is to condemn those people suffering to a (shortened) lifetime of suffering.

fuelair · 28th January 2013, 02:13 AM

I note this lovely morn that Jb has departed this vale of tears by way of the banhammer.

Could have happened to a nicer guy, but probably would not have.

I am sure someone here will miss him. I'm sure we will all try to help that person with his control problem.

Sideroxylon · 28th January 2013, 02:28 AM

I guess I will never find out why dandruff is something that needs treatment while incapacitating and distressing mental conditions are not.

freedy · 28th January 2013, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Who do you think promotes Halloween?

It isn't the Celts!

In Australia we have no meaningful cultural ties to Halloween. Retail outlets promote Halloween. (The God of Money)

The Don · 28th January 2013, 02:48 AM

Never mind, Jonesboy's been banned.

Jack by the hedge · 28th January 2013, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Which evil cabal promotes St. Valentine's Day?

Hallmarkofthebeast.

crhkrebs · 28th January 2013, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Hardly a dodge. Without evidence for mental illness, nor even a definition that works, there is only cultural forces left.

Dodge #2 noted. Again, you weren't asked about evidence or a definition of mental illness. You were asked a specific question.

For a third time you are being asked, "Please produce any evidence that substantiates your claim that modern medicine is not based on evidence based methodology, but rather on religion".

Your continued refusal to address this question indicates one or more of the following:

1) Your reading comprehension is sufficiently low enough to make you incapable of answering.

2) You can understand the question, but realize you actually have no such evidence to support your claims. Your claims are mere proclamations. Instead of coming clean and admitting this, you choose to ignore the question.

3) You are a troll, here to waste everyone's time.

I suspect the real answer is a combination of all 3. Btw, I have asked for the sources of your proclamations on a few of the threads that you have started here at JREF. So far you have dodged all of them.

This is a discussion board. Asking questions and receiving pertinent answers is how intelligent people have discussions. Try it sometime!

crhkrebs · 28th January 2013, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

I note this lovely morn that Jb has departed this vale of tears by way of the banhammer.

Could have happened to a nicer guy, but probably would not have.

I am sure someone here will miss him. I'm sure we will all try to help that person with his control problem.

Oh dear, I missed the news of his banning.

Fuelair, you have a more charitable way of describing how we dealt with Jonsey. I felt more like a bored kitten, toying with a not-so-interesting piece of yarn. I'll try and think we were helping him.

Captain_Swoop · 29th January 2013, 05:18 AM

What did they get him for ?

grmcdorman · 29th January 2013, 09:40 AM

According to the ban notice, repeated violations of the MA, including several Rule 1 breaches:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=252158

ElMondoHummus · 29th January 2013, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by grmcdorman

According to the ban notice, repeated violations of the MA, including several Rule 1 breaches:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=252158

"Potentially criminal"? Whoa! I gotta go read those other threads; sounds exciting.

jaydeehess · 29th January 2013, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence.

So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp.

well the guy I witnessed literally argueing politics with his bicycle during which the bicycle was apparently responding, would not appear to be experiencing the same reality the vast majority of us do in which inanimate objects(or perhaps invisible entities perched upon those objects) can have opinions

Wolrab · 29th January 2013, 03:27 PM

Damned commie, green bicycles. Always so smug and superior.

I sincerely wonder what someone on meds for a mental illness thinks of posts they made when off their meds.

Little 10 Toes · 29th January 2013, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

"Potentially criminal"? Whoa! I gotta go read those other threads; sounds exciting.

The thread ended up in AAH.

EDIT: correction, some of the "Potentially criminal" posts are deleted/moved away from prying eyes.

AdMan · 29th January 2013, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes

The thread ended up in AAH.

EDIT: correction, some of the "Potentially criminal" posts are deleted/moved away from prying eyes.

He was seeking information on where to purchase illicit substances.

littleelvira · 29th January 2013, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like.

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

WOW, that's great. I think Americans are depressed generally though. Mostly because they are inactive.

Sideroxylon · 29th January 2013, 11:46 PM

Great. A great big straw man.

bigred · 30th January 2013, 01:51 PM

Aren't attention whores the cutest little thing

So back to chili: anyone got a kick-butt recipe?

lopeyschools · 30th January 2013, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

"Potentially criminal"? Whoa! I gotta go read those other threads; sounds exciting.

I had exactly the same reaction.

lol

ElMondoHummus · 30th January 2013, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

He was seeking information on where to purchase illicit substances.

Good God, are you serious? OMG, how lame is that?

I mean, I'm as mama's-boy as it comes where "illicit substances" are concerned, but even I can figure out who to ask without revealing my intent on an freakin' internet forum in front of a bunch of total strangers.

Jesus... I knew the guy was benighted, but that's a whole level beyond what I first thought.

dafydd · 30th January 2013, 03:37 PM

There were some insults too.

27th January 2013, 12:50 PM	#81
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by dafydd We should follow his example of never studying anything. Well, up until he said vile things about another forum member and I banished him from my reading, it was clearly obvious that any time he was supposed to be studying was clearly.wasted.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

27th January 2013, 12:51 PM	#82
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,439	Originally Posted by Paul W I had a girlfriend once who washed her hair in vinegar. She said the vinegar made her hair glossy. I just reckoned that it made her smell like fish and chips. Varnish would make your hair glossy too.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

27th January 2013, 12:53 PM	#83
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,938	Well, regardless of whether he's a Scientology advocate or not, one thing remains certain. This statement: Originally Posted by Jonesboy Without evidence for mental illness, nor even a definition that works... ... is just plain, outright wrong. It's notable that he hasn't even tried to support this with argument, he's just stated it as axiomatic. When your premise is off, the rest of your argument is going to suffer. You can choose to take the DSM-IV classifications as your starting point of research and then go look up the body of knowledge behind those to find the evidence of mental disorders existing, or you can choose the ICD-10 and do the same there, but either way, a blanket statement about no evidence existing is simply, demonstrably wrong. The sad thing is, if the claim was limited to criticism about the current state of knowledge and the large margins of uncertainty, he'd find tons of support - legitimate, informed support - for the mindset and at least a willingness to entertain claims. But trying to claim that the field's base of knowledge is nonexistent is a whole other level. That's the point where the criticism becomes seen as uninformed, and therefore dismissed outright.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

27th January 2013, 01:00 PM	#84
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,938	Originally Posted by Paul W I had a girlfriend once who washed her hair in vinegar. She said the vinegar made her hair glossy. Glossy? I thought the point of acidic hair treatments was to make the hair soft. Then again, what do I know? I have a damn near buzz cut and use any ole shampoo in the shower, so it's not like I experiment any with my hair. Originally Posted by Paul W I just reckoned that it made her smell like fish and chips. Oddly enough, that turns me on...
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

28th January 2013, 02:13 AM	#86
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	I note this lovely morn that Jb has departed this vale of tears by way of the banhammer. Could have happened to a nicer guy, but probably would not have. I am sure someone here will miss him. I'm sure we will all try to help that person with his control problem.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

28th January 2013, 12:45 AM	#85
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,223	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Lifestyle choice. Simply that. Yes, he chose to have those terrifying paralysing panic attacks Originally Posted by Jonesboy Make no mistake, he would not have got support from the psychiatric clutch. They are quite solidly against supporting natural processes and resolutions, preferring instead a regime of emotional and social suppression. Strangely enough when he was on his medication and attending his CBT sessions he felt so much better - so much better that he felt that he no longer required the medication or CBT sessions, went off his medication and ended up back in his cycle. I'm not claiming that treatment is always successful (or indeed is ever wholly successful) but to dismiss it all and claim instead that there isn't a brain chemistry component to many metal disorders is to condemn those people suffering to a (shortened) lifetime of suffering.

28th January 2013, 02:28 AM	#87
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,600	I guess I will never find out why dandruff is something that needs treatment while incapacitating and distressing mental conditions are not.
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

28th January 2013, 02:38 AM	#88
freedy Scholar Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 53	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Who do you think promotes Halloween? It isn't the Celts! In Australia we have no meaningful cultural ties to Halloween. Retail outlets promote Halloween. (The God of Money)
freedy Scholar Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 53

28th January 2013, 02:48 AM	#89
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,223	Never mind, Jonesboy's been banned.

28th January 2013, 02:54 AM	#90
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,399	Originally Posted by dafydd Which evil cabal promotes St. Valentine's Day? Hallmarkofthebeast.

28th January 2013, 06:17 AM	#91
crhkrebs Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Great White Northern Wasteland Posts: 185	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Hardly a dodge. Without evidence for mental illness, nor even a definition that works, there is only cultural forces left. Dodge #2 noted. Again, you weren't asked about evidence or a definition of mental illness. You were asked a specific question. For a third time you are being asked, "Please produce any evidence that substantiates your claim that modern medicine is not based on evidence based methodology, but rather on religion". Your continued refusal to address this question indicates one or more of the following: 1) Your reading comprehension is sufficiently low enough to make you incapable of answering. 2) You can understand the question, but realize you actually have no such evidence to support your claims. Your claims are mere proclamations. Instead of coming clean and admitting this, you choose to ignore the question. 3) You are a troll, here to waste everyone's time. I suspect the real answer is a combination of all 3. Btw, I have asked for the sources of your proclamations on a few of the threads that you have started here at JREF. So far you have dodged all of them. This is a discussion board. Asking questions and receiving pertinent answers is how intelligent people have discussions. Try it sometime!

28th January 2013, 06:26 AM	#92
crhkrebs Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Great White Northern Wasteland Posts: 185	Originally Posted by fuelair I note this lovely morn that Jb has departed this vale of tears by way of the banhammer. Could have happened to a nicer guy, but probably would not have. I am sure someone here will miss him. I'm sure we will all try to help that person with his control problem. Oh dear, I missed the news of his banning. Fuelair, you have a more charitable way of describing how we dealt with Jonsey. I felt more like a bored kitten, toying with a not-so-interesting piece of yarn. I'll try and think we were helping him.

29th January 2013, 05:18 AM	#93
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,906	What did they get him for ?

29th January 2013, 09:40 AM	#94
grmcdorman Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 857	According to the ban notice, repeated violations of the MA, including several Rule 1 breaches: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=252158
grmcdorman Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 857	__________________ "Hello. My name is Inigo Skywalker. You are my father. Prepare to die."

29th January 2013, 12:59 PM	#95
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,938	Originally Posted by grmcdorman According to the ban notice, repeated violations of the MA, including several Rule 1 breaches: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=252158 "Potentially criminal"? Whoa! I gotta go read those other threads; sounds exciting.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

29th January 2013, 01:33 PM	#96
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,793	Originally Posted by Jonesboy There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence. So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp. well the guy I witnessed literally argueing politics with his bicycle during which the bicycle was apparently responding, would not appear to be experiencing the same reality the vast majority of us do in which inanimate objects(or perhaps invisible entities perched upon those objects) can have opinions

29th January 2013, 03:27 PM	#97
Wolrab Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Beautiful Finger Lakes Posts: 1,706	Damned commie, green bicycles. Always so smug and superior. I sincerely wonder what someone on meds for a mental illness thinks of posts they made when off their meds.
	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

29th January 2013, 07:20 PM	#98
Little 10 Toes Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Who's house? Run's house! Posts: 1,458	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus "Potentially criminal"? Whoa! I gotta go read those other threads; sounds exciting. The thread ended up in AAH. EDIT: correction, some of the "Potentially criminal" posts are deleted/moved away from prying eyes.
	__________________ I'm an "intellectual giant, with access to wilkipedia [sic]" "I believe in some ways; communicating with afterlife is easier than communicating with me." -Tim4848 who said he would no longer post here, twice in fact, but he did. Last edited by Little 10 Toes; 29th January 2013 at 07:24 PM.

29th January 2013, 07:44 PM	#99
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,157	Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes The thread ended up in AAH. EDIT: correction, some of the "Potentially criminal" posts are deleted/moved away from prying eyes. He was seeking information on where to purchase illicit substances.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,157	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

29th January 2013, 09:08 PM	#100
littleelvira Suspended Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 39	Originally Posted by Jonesboy In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think. Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask. However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like. The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism. WOW, that's great. I think Americans are depressed generally though. Mostly because they are inactive.
littleelvira Suspended Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 39

29th January 2013, 11:46 PM	#101
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,600	Great. A great big straw man.
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

30th January 2013, 01:51 PM	#102
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,525	Aren't attention whores the cutest little thing So back to chili: anyone got a kick-butt recipe?

30th January 2013, 02:33 PM	#103
lopeyschools Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: West Coast - BC Posts: 372	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus "Potentially criminal"? Whoa! I gotta go read those other threads; sounds exciting. I had exactly the same reaction. lol

30th January 2013, 02:47 PM	#104
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,938	Originally Posted by AdMan He was seeking information on where to purchase illicit substances. Good God, are you serious? OMG, how lame is that? I mean, I'm as mama's-boy as it comes where "illicit substances" are concerned, but even I can figure out who to ask without revealing my intent on an freakin' internet forum in front of a bunch of total strangers. Jesus... I knew the guy was benighted, but that's a whole level beyond what I first thought.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

30th January 2013, 03:37 PM	#105
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,439	There were some insults too.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.