so this guy in the olympics without legs kind of has an advantage with those metal th - Page 3

DevilsAdvocate · 12th August 2012, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by dlorde

I don't have to, the IAAF does. It's their decision. I think they've potentially opened a can of worms, but for now the evidence seems to show that Pistorius is an exceptional athlete compared to others using those prosthetics, and he's probably disadvantaged by them.

I would hazard a guess that in future they will only accept athletes who succeed above a certain level at paralympic sports - where the 'level playing field' assessments will have already been done. They might also need to establish some performance point at which paralympic sports that allow prosthetics would become ineligible, to cover the situation where finals-level paralympian prosthetic-aided performances surpass finals-level Olympic performances.

There is also the issue of injury. At world-class levels, lower-limb injuries are not uncommon, and can ruin a race, a season, or a career. A broken prosthetic can be replaced immediately. OTOH, there is the problematic human-prosthetic interface which can also suffer traumatic breakdown (although IIRC recent technology allows attachment to titanium bone-extensions that protrude through the skin, rather than using a close-fitting stump socket only; not sure if this is in use yet).

Thanks. This is definitely a difficult issue.

Rasmus · 13th August 2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by dlorde

to cover the situation where finals-level paralympian prosthetic-aided performances surpass finals-level Olympic performances.

Marathon. Wheelchairs.

Libra · 14th August 2012, 05:42 AM

If the prosthetic "blades" are manufactured to have mechanical properties as such to only replace the function that was once there ie : "levelling the playing field and no more", this does not necessarily allow conclusion that there is no advantage above other athletes not using such device.

As mentioned by others here, the aerodynamics of the blades vs normal legs might give a small advantage ?

If the athlete's leg length (or what it would have been, determined by ratios?) is shortened by the use of the prothetics, this puts him at a disadvantage, as with the same amount of strides per unit time, he would cover less distance.

The fact that the athlete does not have muscles in his lower legs, would mean that he burns less energy, which could increase his endurance and stamina ? Is this why the 400m item is preferred bu Oscar above the 100m item ? This would be to the athlete's advantage.

The fact that the athlete does not have lower legs and muscles there also means that his body does not need to supply that area of oxygen, leaving the full quota of oxygen to be chanelled to the rest of the body, supplying them with more oxygen that what they would have received normally. This decreases stress on the respiratory system making for more efficient oxygen extraction and CO2 removal ? This would be to the athlete's advantage.

As a South African, I'm proud of all our athletes, inclusive Oscar, for their hard work and achievements with the minimal (compared to the rest of the world's athletes) support and financial expenditure the SA government ploughs into Olympic sport and athlete development annually, but am not convinced that he has no advantage above able-bodied athletes.

DrDave · 14th August 2012, 05:48 AM

Is there a length limit on the prosthetics? If I was this guy, I'd have 50m legs fitted and just take 1 really long step.

Spindrift · 14th August 2012, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by DrDave

Is there a length limit on the prosthetics? If I was this guy, I'd have 50m legs fitted and just take 1 really long step.

The prosthesis he uses comes in one length. 16" or so.

WildCat · 9th September 2012, 07:56 PM

So apparently Pistorius lost the 200m race in the Paralympics, and then complained about the winner's prosthetics.

Quote:

"As I said yesterday, the International Paralympic Committee don't want to listen," Pistorius said in a trackside Channel 4 interview. "The guys' legs are unbelievably long.

"I'm not taking away from Alan's performance. He's a great athlete. But these guys are a lot taller and you can't compete with the stride length. You saw how far he came back. We aren't racing a fair race. I gave it my best.

"The IPC have their regulations. The regulations allow that athletes can make themselves unbelievably high. We've tried to address the issue with them in the weeks up to this and it's just been falling on deaf ears.

"You saw Blake Leeper yesterday when the guy came down literally overnight, made his blades longer. His knee height is like four inches higher than it should be. The guys are just running ridiculous times and they're able to do so.

"I think Alan's a great athlete but I run just over 10 metres per second, I don't know how you can come back, watching the replay, from eight metres behind in the last 100m to win. It's absolutely ridiculous."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/o...k-8101597.html

rjh01 · 9th September 2012, 11:33 PM

If that is true he should have had an addition to his prosthetics to make him another 6 inches or so taller. Then he would be competing on an equal footing with the winner.

On the other hand making longer prosthetics does two things
1. Increase the centre of gravity.
2. Increase the gearing.

The former will make the person more vulnerable to a fall. The later is almost like a racing car driver complaining he lost because the other car had a higher top gear to his. Only reasonable if the other car also had a more powerful engine.

Modified · 10th September 2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

If that is true he should have had an addition to his prosthetics to make him another 6 inches or so taller. Then he would be competing on an equal footing with the winner.

On the other hand making longer prosthetics does two things
1. Increase the centre of gravity.
2. Increase the gearing.

The former will make the person more vulnerable to a fall. The later is almost like a racing car driver complaining he lost because the other car had a higher top gear to his. Only reasonable if the other car also had a more powerful engine.

Longer than "natural" length is surely an advantage up to some point, and for the middle distance events, that point is probably quite long.

Beerina · 10th September 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Reactor drone

He's not the only person in the world to use spring feet prosthetics. Their performance can be directly compared to an actual leg on single leg amputees and they've been shown to not provide an advantage over flesh and blood limbs.

Still don't believe it. You'd need thousands of double amputees as a proven cross-section compared to a statistically identical sample of normal people.

Then you would adjust the fake feet until identical results were obtained. Then do another double-blind study, factory fake vs. adjusted fake vs. normal.

Jekyll's Guest · 13th September 2012, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by marplots

Sounds right. After all, with more than a billion to choose from, stands to reason that China would have more superheros (and more super-villains).

I think it would more likely have lots of super-soldiers and dead wannabe-supervillains.

12th August 2012, 10:50 PM	#81
DevilsAdvocate Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,637	Originally Posted by dlorde I don't have to, the IAAF does. It's their decision. I think they've potentially opened a can of worms, but for now the evidence seems to show that Pistorius is an exceptional athlete compared to others using those prosthetics, and he's probably disadvantaged by them. I would hazard a guess that in future they will only accept athletes who succeed above a certain level at paralympic sports - where the 'level playing field' assessments will have already been done. They might also need to establish some performance point at which paralympic sports that allow prosthetics would become ineligible, to cover the situation where finals-level paralympian prosthetic-aided performances surpass finals-level Olympic performances. There is also the issue of injury. At world-class levels, lower-limb injuries are not uncommon, and can ruin a race, a season, or a career. A broken prosthetic can be replaced immediately. OTOH, there is the problematic human-prosthetic interface which can also suffer traumatic breakdown (although IIRC recent technology allows attachment to titanium bone-extensions that protrude through the skin, rather than using a close-fitting stump socket only; not sure if this is in use yet). Thanks. This is definitely a difficult issue.
	__________________ Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau

13th August 2012, 10:09 AM	#82
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by dlorde to cover the situation where finals-level paralympian prosthetic-aided performances surpass finals-level Olympic performances. Marathon. Wheelchairs.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

14th August 2012, 05:42 AM	#83
Libra Scholar Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 122	If the prosthetic "blades" are manufactured to have mechanical properties as such to only replace the function that was once there ie : "levelling the playing field and no more", this does not necessarily allow conclusion that there is no advantage above other athletes not using such device. As mentioned by others here, the aerodynamics of the blades vs normal legs might give a small advantage ? If the athlete's leg length (or what it would have been, determined by ratios?) is shortened by the use of the prothetics, this puts him at a disadvantage, as with the same amount of strides per unit time, he would cover less distance. The fact that the athlete does not have muscles in his lower legs, would mean that he burns less energy, which could increase his endurance and stamina ? Is this why the 400m item is preferred bu Oscar above the 100m item ? This would be to the athlete's advantage. The fact that the athlete does not have lower legs and muscles there also means that his body does not need to supply that area of oxygen, leaving the full quota of oxygen to be chanelled to the rest of the body, supplying them with more oxygen that what they would have received normally. This decreases stress on the respiratory system making for more efficient oxygen extraction and CO2 removal ? This would be to the athlete's advantage. As a South African, I'm proud of all our athletes, inclusive Oscar, for their hard work and achievements with the minimal (compared to the rest of the world's athletes) support and financial expenditure the SA government ploughs into Olympic sport and athlete development annually, but am not convinced that he has no advantage above able-bodied athletes.
Libra Scholar Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 122

14th August 2012, 06:24 AM	#85
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,447	Originally Posted by DrDave Is there a length limit on the prosthetics? If I was this guy, I'd have 50m legs fitted and just take 1 really long step. The prosthesis he uses comes in one length. 16" or so.
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9th September 2012, 11:33 PM	#87
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	If that is true he should have had an addition to his prosthetics to make him another 6 inches or so taller. Then he would be competing on an equal footing with the winner. On the other hand making longer prosthetics does two things 1. Increase the centre of gravity. 2. Increase the gearing. The former will make the person more vulnerable to a fall. The later is almost like a racing car driver complaining he lost because the other car had a higher top gear to his. Only reasonable if the other car also had a more powerful engine.
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14th August 2012, 05:48 AM	#84
DrDave Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,110	Is there a length limit on the prosthetics? If I was this guy, I'd have 50m legs fitted and just take 1 really long step.

9th September 2012, 07:56 PM	#86
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,983	So apparently Pistorius lost the 200m race in the Paralympics, and then complained about the winner's prosthetics. Quote: "As I said yesterday, the International Paralympic Committee don't want to listen," Pistorius said in a trackside Channel 4 interview. "The guys' legs are unbelievably long. "I'm not taking away from Alan's performance. He's a great athlete. But these guys are a lot taller and you can't compete with the stride length. You saw how far he came back. We aren't racing a fair race. I gave it my best. "The IPC have their regulations. The regulations allow that athletes can make themselves unbelievably high. We've tried to address the issue with them in the weeks up to this and it's just been falling on deaf ears. "You saw Blake Leeper yesterday when the guy came down literally overnight, made his blades longer. His knee height is like four inches higher than it should be. The guys are just running ridiculous times and they're able to do so. "I think Alan's a great athlete but I run just over 10 metres per second, I don't know how you can come back, watching the replay, from eight metres behind in the last 100m to win. It's absolutely ridiculous." http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/o...k-8101597.html

10th September 2012, 10:33 AM	#88
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by rjh01 If that is true he should have had an addition to his prosthetics to make him another 6 inches or so taller. Then he would be competing on an equal footing with the winner. On the other hand making longer prosthetics does two things 1. Increase the centre of gravity. 2. Increase the gearing. The former will make the person more vulnerable to a fall. The later is almost like a racing car driver complaining he lost because the other car had a higher top gear to his. Only reasonable if the other car also had a more powerful engine. Longer than "natural" length is surely an advantage up to some point, and for the middle distance events, that point is probably quite long.

10th September 2012, 12:27 PM	#89
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Reactor drone He's not the only person in the world to use spring feet prosthetics. Their performance can be directly compared to an actual leg on single leg amputees and they've been shown to not provide an advantage over flesh and blood limbs. Still don't believe it. You'd need thousands of double amputees as a proven cross-section compared to a statistically identical sample of normal people. Then you would adjust the fake feet until identical results were obtained. Then do another double-blind study, factory fake vs. adjusted fake vs. normal.
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13th September 2012, 05:21 PM	#90
Jekyll's Guest Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,948	Originally Posted by marplots Sounds right. After all, with more than a billion to choose from, stands to reason that China would have more superheros (and more super-villains). I think it would more likely have lots of super-soldiers and dead wannabe-supervillains.