[Moderated] Why I have a tough time talking to believers. - Page 30

punshhh · 5th February 2013, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

I don't see how you get to this conclusion.

The things you refer to below do not require belief. That is rather like saying "If I move an apple towards my mouth, I believe I will eat it".

"I expect" or "I have confidence in" are better attitudes.

Quote:

For example, things it is rational to believe:

1. My car will start tomorrow morning
2. My wife will be at home when I return from work
3. If I get on a plane it will land safely at the destination

Again there is no reason to believe, it is common sense that these things are likely to be the case. There is a chance one may not be the case, but we all take that risk without having to have faith that our belief is correct.

Quote:

None of these are certain but I have good reason to believe they will be the case.

Yes belief in anything is entirely unnecessary to live your life.

Quote:

Equally, it would be irrational to believe:

1. The universe was created by an intelligent being
2. Fairies live at the bottom of my garden
3. My wife is slowly poisoning me and has been for years

All that is required is a judgement based on empirical evidence.

Quote:

Incidentally, without the benefit of being able to see the future how do you know the sun will rise tomorrow?

I could have faith that the test of time would indicate that it will. Although in my case, I don't require this, as I have made a judgement based on empirical evidence that it will rise tomorrow, many years ago and now don't give it a second thought.

Last of the Fraggles · 6th February 2013, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by punshhh

The things you refer to below do not require belief. That is rather like saying "If I move an apple towards my mouth, I believe I will eat it".

"I expect" or "I have confidence in" are better attitudes.

Again there is no reason to believe, it is common sense that these things are likely to be the case. There is a chance one may not be the case, but we all take that risk without having to have faith that our belief is correct.

Yes belief in anything is entirely unnecessary to live your life.
All that is required is a judgement based on empirical evidence.

I could have faith that the test of time would indicate that it will. Although in my case, I don't require this, as I have made a judgement based on empirical evidence that it will rise tomorrow, many years ago and now don't give it a second thought.

So what you are doing is redefining the words belief and believe and know?

Belz... · 7th February 2013, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by punshhh

"know" is something which living things do. They detect a circumstance and respond to it, in a knowing way.

I'm sorry but how does this answer my question, and how is this in any way a definition of the word ? It's also circular, because you include the word being defined in the definition.

You have two choices:

1) Know, in the sense that I'm 100% sure
2) Know, in the sense that I'm sure for all practical purposes.

Which one of these, or another, did you mean when you said you knew the sun would come up tomorrow ?

7th February 2013, 02:39 AM	#1163
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,539	Originally Posted by punshhh "know" is something which living things do. They detect a circumstance and respond to it, in a knowing way. I'm sorry but how does this answer my question, and how is this in any way a definition of the word ? It's also circular, because you include the word being defined in the definition. You have two choices: 1) Know, in the sense that I'm 100% sure 2) Know, in the sense that I'm sure for all practical purposes. Which one of these, or another, did you mean when you said you knew the sun would come up tomorrow ?
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5th February 2013, 11:42 PM	#1161
punshhh Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Rural England Posts: 4,165	Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles I don't see how you get to this conclusion. The things you refer to below do not require belief. That is rather like saying "If I move an apple towards my mouth, I believe I will eat it". "I expect" or "I have confidence in" are better attitudes. Quote: For example, things it is rational to believe: 1. My car will start tomorrow morning 2. My wife will be at home when I return from work 3. If I get on a plane it will land safely at the destination Again there is no reason to believe, it is common sense that these things are likely to be the case. There is a chance one may not be the case, but we all take that risk without having to have faith that our belief is correct. Quote: None of these are certain but I have good reason to believe they will be the case. Yes belief in anything is entirely unnecessary to live your life. Quote: Equally, it would be irrational to believe: 1. The universe was created by an intelligent being 2. Fairies live at the bottom of my garden 3. My wife is slowly poisoning me and has been for years All that is required is a judgement based on empirical evidence. Quote: Incidentally, without the benefit of being able to see the future how do you know the sun will rise tomorrow? I could have faith that the test of time would indicate that it will. Although in my case, I don't require this, as I have made a judgement based on empirical evidence that it will rise tomorrow, many years ago and now don't give it a second thought.

6th February 2013, 01:27 PM	#1162
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,357	Originally Posted by punshhh The things you refer to below do not require belief. That is rather like saying "If I move an apple towards my mouth, I believe I will eat it". "I expect" or "I have confidence in" are better attitudes. Again there is no reason to believe, it is common sense that these things are likely to be the case. There is a chance one may not be the case, but we all take that risk without having to have faith that our belief is correct. Yes belief in anything is entirely unnecessary to live your life. All that is required is a judgement based on empirical evidence. I could have faith that the test of time would indicate that it will. Although in my case, I don't require this, as I have made a judgement based on empirical evidence that it will rise tomorrow, many years ago and now don't give it a second thought. So what you are doing is redefining the words belief and believe and know?