IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » Welcome to ISF » Other Skeptical Organizations » JREF » Million Dollar Challenge
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags application , pavel ziborov , telepathy

Closed Thread
Old 22nd December 2007, 05:49 PM   #121
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Cool

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
How many controlled tests like the one you intend to do with the JREF have you done? I'm guessing: None.

The hubris, pardon: confidence of would-be applicants before a test is well documented, pavel_do.
Their cockiness (even of those with manners) is usually proportional to the spectacularity of their failure.
The loudness of their voices (comparable to the volume of their posts) is also usually proportional to the probability of their impromptu disappearance.



Allow me one more guess, pavel_do. If you want, you may call it a prediction: You will not agree to a controlled test for the JREF Challenge.


Ill prove your prediction is wrong.. i will agree with test as long as it reasonable.. and you undarstand what i mean, for now its useles to as we say pore water from one empte busket to another.. well see, ill get academic whitneses, ill record on video that test and than we`ll see what next.. confidence that you call cockiness, i think you should be confident if you apply here what is your price if you dont bealive in yourself... any way only time will tell whos wright and whos wrong. Ill keep you posted about all my steps and all negotiations about tests etc.. for now.. I wish every one a nice Xmass days.
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2007, 07:12 AM   #122
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
...
i will agree with test as long as it reasonable..
...
You should expect the test to eliminate all possibilities of cheating.
You should expect the test to ensure that you have to do exactly what you claim to be able to do for passing it and moving on to the next stage.
Hence, you should expect the test to be reasonable.

But only to those who apply logic and, you guessed it: reason.



From the information I have gathered on you so far, experience suggests pretty much you intend to weasel your way through. Absolutely no offense intended. Therefore, once you realise that this won't bear any fruit, you will start evasions, you will donne excuses and/or create conditions that can't be catered to in proper controlled test.
My guess of no preliminary test ever happening still stands.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2007, 10:21 AM   #123
Moochie
Philosopher
 
Moochie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,491
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
If ill not pass 1 time ill try 2 if not 2nd.. 3d not more. I am sure even if ill fail in a way 1st time it will be significant that i can do it.. i am sure!!! I know i can see things and i know it can be proved! we`ll see any way..the time will kindly show us..

regarding GzuzKryzt
How many failures in controlled tests would it take for you to admit you do not have the claimed ability?

I have ability, and i will prove it, as long as test will be reasonable, i can see and perform results that will be more than expected odds etc.. but if thay will want from me to perform it 10 times in range or put me in glas box with 100 people around and some toehr things its obviesly can affect results.. but any way.. as i can see from rules, eventhou its strict but there is a way to make it as simple and easy as it possible for the claiment.. But still.. "simple" is diffrent for all of us.. thay might think its simple to perform it in one way and for me that way is not simple at all...like, thay say there is NO WAY my friend will be in same room to 'send" me images of the cards... WHY?? is there any facts that it can be done from difrent rooms same as from same when the "sender" sit opposite you..?? if no one ever proved it..?? from what is it taken?? etc... like as thay say there is ways to cheat, but that is there job to make sure no cheatings that why thay there?? my covered eyes and ears and no fisical contact with "sender" no vizual, sound or any sighns can be seen, it should be silent.. THAT is not good enough for them.. I think you undarstand my point? i hope so at least, that regard to the actual test as it should be as simple and reasonable as it possible for me,.. as what ever who says, stress its not the greatest help for performance...
any way we`ll see.. what elts can i say, ill keep everyone posted about all that happaning and test conditions and negotiations of the protocol.

Sorry to be late into this conversation.

To me, my skeptic's "third ear" burned bright red when I first read of your intention to work with a friend. I am just as uncomprehending of why you should require this as you seem to be of why (working with a friend in the same room) will not be allowed.

The test, after all, is of the claim you make about your ability. You are not making a claim that the two of you have paranormal abilities -- which is the implication of what you have said so far. If your friend has the ability to "transmit" what is in her/his mind to another person, then let her/him undertake the test separately, at another time.

When it comes to evidence, we all know that there is none for the claim that anyone can "telepathically" transmit anything to anyone, whether the two parties are in the same room or in different countries. I have seen a television program in which a person claimed to be able to remotely see things that are in another country. Of course he was not able to prove it. I am puzzled by why you are making an issue out of this. Are you laying the groundwork for an eventual "out" should your "ability" remain unproven?

If you have the ability you claim to have, then why can't you "see" the contents of the envelope handed to you by an independent party?

M.

Last edited by Moochie; 23rd December 2007 at 10:25 AM. Reason: Added text for clarity.
Moochie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2007, 12:44 PM   #124
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
If you have the ability you claim to have, then why can't you "see" the contents of the envelope handed to you by an independent party?

I GOT YOUR POINT.. BUT REGARDING THE INDEPENDENT PARTY... well..let say 1000.000$ is money thet not given that easy.. let say.. i am sort of catching lepepathically simbels-colors of the card.. I can be sure that my friend, will be thinking about exact card that he see infront of him.. i am not sure that the person who will be chousen by JREF will be same honnest and will not confuse me in any way..by thinking wrong color or something.. as 1.000.000 that is allot of money to give a way... I hope you undarstand now my point.. why it had to be friend?? cause we grove up together and i trust hem more then to some one elts and its in a way for me would be more comfortable to try and "read" his mind than a complite stranger.. if you undarstand what i mean..??? Still at the moment i am practising on my own if ill not get same results ill apply then that i can "pic up" particular persons mind or what ever.. BUT what ever the final claim and protocol will be i am not steping out. In a few weeks aftre new year hollidays will be over ill got o University and will try to speak to some one from Psychology department to soem academics, to perform them my things, as ill need whitnessings form them for entering the chalange.. also will speak to them maybe we`ll figure out better way to perform what i can do, as only last week i read that in Duce Univercity there was a research for many years and thay done many tipes of test including using of the 5 cards with just an animals on it ets.. What ever ill try to finf the most sutable and easyest way to perform as not to complicate anything as it is complicated enough..plus then more easy it is then less rules and complications will be in protocol i gues.. AS If ill claim i can read cards one by one on the table what ever what ever.. than no need to make it in differetn rooms,.. make my eyes blind and plug my ears.. ( thou still ill do so to iluminate distructions for me). Ill do my best to perform it and ill do it!
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2007, 01:09 PM   #125
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
If you have the ability you claim to have, then why can't you "see" the contents of the envelope handed to you by an independent party?

I GOT YOUR POINT.. BUT REGARDING THE INDEPENDENT PARTY... well..let say 1000.000$ is money thet not given that easy.. let say.. i am sort of catching lepepathically simbels-colors of the card.. I can be sure that my friend, will be thinking about exact card that he see infront of him.. i am not sure that the person who will be chousen by JREF will be same honnest and will not confuse me in any way..by thinking wrong color or something.. as 1.000.000 that is allot of money to give a way... I hope you undarstand now my point.. why it had to be friend?? cause we grove up together and i trust hem more then to some one elts and its in a way for me would be more comfortable to try and "read" his mind than a complite stranger.. if you undarstand what i mean..??? Still at the moment i am practising on my own if ill not get same results ill apply then that i can "pic up" particular persons mind or what ever.. BUT what ever the final claim and protocol will be i am not steping out. In a few weeks aftre new year hollidays will be over ill got o University and will try to speak to some one from Psychology department to soem academics, to perform them my things, as ill need whitnessings form them for entering the chalange.. also will speak to them maybe we`ll figure out better way to perform what i can do, as only last week i read that in Duce Univercity there was a research for many years and thay done many tipes of test including using of the 5 cards with just an animals on it ets.. What ever ill try to finf the most sutable and easyest way to perform as not to complicate anything as it is complicated enough..plus then more easy it is then less rules and complications will be in protocol i gues.. AS If ill claim i can read cards one by one on the table what ever what ever.. than no need to make it in differetn rooms,.. make my eyes blind and plug my ears.. ( thou still ill do so to iluminate distructions for me). Ill do my best to perform it and ill do it!
I understand and support your need to bring a friend, pavel_do. Anyone remembering e.g. the Paul Carey (naughtyrasputin) protocol negotiations should come to the same conclusion.

If I haven't done it before, pavel_do, I suggest you read up on the Achau Nguyen protocol. It's simple, thorough and it seems to eliminate cheating pretty well.

Also, Achau Nguyen has become somewhat of a benchmark for JREF Challenge applicants. Even "Bone Cancer" KRAMER liked him.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2007, 05:42 PM   #126
Moochie
Philosopher
 
Moochie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,491
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
If you have the ability you claim to have, then why can't you "see" the contents of the envelope handed to you by an independent party?

I GOT YOUR POINT.. BUT REGARDING THE INDEPENDENT PARTY... well..let say 1000.000$ is money thet not given that easy.. let say.. i am sort of catching lepepathically simbels-colors of the card.. I can be sure that my friend, will be thinking about exact card that he see infront of him.. i am not sure that the person who will be chousen by JREF will be same honnest and will not confuse me in any way..by thinking wrong color or something.. as 1.000.000 that is allot of money to give a way... I hope you undarstand now my point.. why it had to be friend?? cause we grove up together and i trust hem more then to some one elts and its in a way for me would be more comfortable to try and "read" his mind than a complite stranger.. if you undarstand what i mean..??? Still at the moment i am practising on my own if ill not get same results ill apply then that i can "pic up" particular persons mind or what ever.. BUT what ever the final claim and protocol will be i am not steping out. In a few weeks aftre new year hollidays will be over ill got o University and will try to speak to some one from Psychology department to soem academics, to perform them my things, as ill need whitnessings form them for entering the chalange.. also will speak to them maybe we`ll figure out better way to perform what i can do, as only last week i read that in Duce Univercity there was a research for many years and thay done many tipes of test including using of the 5 cards with just an animals on it ets.. What ever ill try to finf the most sutable and easyest way to perform as not to complicate anything as it is complicated enough..plus then more easy it is then less rules and complications will be in protocol i gues.. AS If ill claim i can read cards one by one on the table what ever what ever.. than no need to make it in differetn rooms,.. make my eyes blind and plug my ears.. ( thou still ill do so to iluminate distructions for me). Ill do my best to perform it and ill do it!
You have not understood me. I wasn't recommending that anyone communicates with you "telepathically," but that an independent person -- someone agreeable to all concerned, hand you a sealed envelope containing a card which you then "read" without opening the envelope. This independent person would have no idea of the contents of the envelope until it is opened after the test. In other words, this person would play no actual part in testing your claimed ability, but would just hand you the sealed envelopes.

Again, I am assuming that it is your ability you wish to be tested on, not anyone else's.

If you want to include a third party as part of your team, then that would be a test of two "abilities" -- your friend's ability to transmit data telepathically, and your ability to receive that transmission. Do you see my point? In my opinion, that represents an entirely different set of circumstances than I had thought you were describing.

You might clarify this some more to those of us who have legitimate questions.

M.
Moochie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2007, 01:29 PM   #127
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by Moochie View Post
You have not understood me. I wasn't recommending that anyone communicates with you "telepathically," but that an independent person -- someone agreeable to all concerned, hand you a sealed envelope containing a card which you then "read" without opening the envelope. This independent person would have no idea of the contents of the envelope until it is opened after the test. In other words, this person would play no actual part in testing your claimed ability, but would just hand you the sealed envelopes.

Again, I am assuming that it is your ability you wish to be tested on, not anyone else's.

If you want to include a third party as part of your team, then that would be a test of two "abilities" -- your friend's ability to transmit data telepathically, and your ability to receive that transmission. Do you see my point? In my opinion, that represents an entirely different set of circumstances than I had thought you were describing.

You might clarify this some more to those of us who have legitimate questions.

M.

well i undarstood you, and that is a good idea with sealed envelope, than it should be 25 envelopes or 50 (25 -50cards).. but would be better if envelope would be opne after my gues, or my gues would be writen on top of the envelope and remaine in same room and then opened infront of all of us...

regarding my friend to be involved as i explaned it is more as a person that i feel comfortable with and trust and as a support as well.. still its my claim and my abiliti to be tested...
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2007, 01:31 PM   #128
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Smile

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
I understand and support your need to bring a friend, pavel_do. Anyone remembering e.g. the Paul Carey (naughtyrasputin) protocol negotiations should come to the same conclusion.

If I haven't done it before, pavel_do, I suggest you read up on the Achau Nguyen protocol. It's simple, thorough and it seems to eliminate cheating pretty well.

Also, Achau Nguyen has become somewhat of a benchmark for JREF Challenge applicants. Even "Bone Cancer" KRAMER liked him.
I read this test protocol of Achau Nguyen i am finding it fair and good..

and read Paul Carey trade as well... i have ni comments about it.. but.. Person dont know how to addmit his wrong...
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2007, 02:36 PM   #129
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
I read this test protocol of Achau Nguyen i am finding it fair and good..
...
Have you considered submitting said test proposal to the JREF? It should speed up your protocol negotiations quite nicely.

There are some people in this forum who will get you hitched with IIG in no time. If you are serious, I'll contact them for you to get things started.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th December 2007, 12:09 PM   #130
Moochie
Philosopher
 
Moochie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,491
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
well i undarstood you, and that is a good idea with sealed envelope, than it should be 25 envelopes or 50 (25 -50cards).. but would be better if envelope would be opne after my gues, or my gues would be writen on top of the envelope and remaine in same room and then opened infront of all of us...

regarding my friend to be involved as i explaned it is more as a person that i feel comfortable with and trust and as a support as well.. still its my claim and my abiliti to be tested...
I am almost certain that no one would object to your friend being present during the test as a nonparticipatory observer. As such, he/she would have no part in the conduct of the test.

M.
Moochie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th December 2007, 01:48 AM   #131
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by Moochie View Post
I am almost certain that no one would object to your friend being present during the test as a nonparticipatory observer. As such, he/she would have no part in the conduct of the test.

M.
I think I understand your points, Moochie.

However, in the Achau Nguyen test the subject was allowed to bring his own receiver. The same was intended for the Paul Carey and Ian Conger tests.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th December 2007, 10:07 AM   #132
Moochie
Philosopher
 
Moochie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,491
Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
I think I understand your points, Moochie.

However, in the Achau Nguyen test the subject was allowed to bring his own receiver. The same was intended for the Paul Carey and Ian Conger tests.
Fair enough. As long as a fair protocol can be devised I suppose it doesn't matter all that much. In any case, the present applicant needs to clearly explain what he will do and with whom he will do it. Still looks like a four-hander to me, though.

M.
Moochie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th January 2008, 06:10 PM   #133
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Question

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
Have you considered submitting said test proposal to the JREF? It should speed up your protocol negotiations quite nicely.

There are some people in this forum who will get you hitched with IIG in no time. If you are serious, I'll contact them for you to get things started.
what is IIG??
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th January 2008, 07:14 PM   #134
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
what is IIG??
Sorry, bad screwup on my part.
I meant to say Centre For Inquiry West.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2008, 01:34 PM   #135
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post hello again...:)

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
Sorry, bad screwup on my part.
I meant to say Centre For Inquiry West.
Ok,.. what exactly you can do and they can do?
hi guys, long time i wasn't here... still in to idea to get a million i am back to states and will be back to all of it while i am here,... so i will get academics witnessing and the rest that need while i am here for the tests and other things.
I have anew question to JREF, when i was in US last time, i visited one Medical center where they research cancer cells etc.. there was a few tips of cancer cells, and for "fun" out of curiosity for one lady who work there, i "played" for 10 min with 2 tips of cells.. in 1 week they counted cells,, the "jar" with cells that i didn't touched and the other had difference.. my grow 30% less for a week time.. that is significant, and chance for that it happen by chance is 1 % only... so.. would it be a claim?? if i go in to it deeper?? cause it would make it all easier.. for everything..there will be medical center.. cells.. doctors who will watch them and count them what ever.. to prove that i was able to reduce cancer growth..?? I did it for 10 min only and once.. i could do it for 3 day...or what ever.... to see what happens.. if it is can be considered as a claim..?? can it be????
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 03:14 AM   #136
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
Ok,.. what exactly you can do and they can do?
hi guys, long time i wasn't here... still in to idea to get a million i am back to states and will be back to all of it while i am here,... so i will get academics witnessing and the rest that need while i am here for the tests and other things.
I have anew question to JREF, when i was in US last time, i visited one Medical center where they research cancer cells etc.. there was a few tips of cancer cells, and for "fun" out of curiosity for one lady who work there, i "played" for 10 min with 2 tips of cells.. in 1 week they counted cells,, the "jar" with cells that i didn't touched and the other had difference.. my grow 30% less for a week time.. that is significant, and chance for that it happen by chance is 1 % only... so.. would it be a claim?? if i go in to it deeper?? cause it would make it all easier.. for everything..there will be medical center.. cells.. doctors who will watch them and count them what ever.. to prove that i was able to reduce cancer growth..?? I did it for 10 min only and once.. i could do it for 3 day...or what ever.... to see what happens.. if it is can be considered as a claim..?? can it be????
Pavel_do, you said:

Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
I read this test protocol of Achau Nguyen i am finding it fair and good..
...
My response to this was:

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
Have you considered submitting said test proposal to the JREF? It should speed up your protocol negotiations quite nicely.
...
After not responding to my inquiry you went silent for two solid months.

If you read the Achau Nguyen protocol properly you would have noticed that the Centre for Inquiry West (CFI) was the organisation which ran the test. That is what they can do.

I suggest you focus on one claim. Then you submit a proper application. You seemed to be bent on demonstrating your claimed telepathy.



To avoid miscommunication, I also suggest you use a spell checker.



P.S: You say (bolded parts):

Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
...i am back to states and will be back to all of it while i am here,... so i will get academics witnessing and the rest that need while i am here for the tests and other things.
...
Have you already scheduled a test with an institution? Which one?
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 06:42 AM   #137
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
 
Czarcasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
I have anew question to JREF, when i was in US last time, i visited one Medical center where they research cancer cells etc.. there was a few tips of cancer cells, and for "fun" out of curiosity for one lady who work there, i "played" for 10 min with 2 tips of cells.. in 1 week they counted cells,, the "jar" with cells that i didn't touched and the other had difference.. my grow 30% less for a week time..
1. Which medical center was this?
2. What is the name of the lady that you did this for?
3. Why did this medical center allow you to mess around in their lab and ruin their test samples?
4. The next time you make claims of this sort, could you please provide real names of peoples and places?
__________________
The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world.
I loooove my meds!
Czarcasm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 09:00 AM   #138
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
1. Which medical center was this?
2. What is the name of the lady that you did this for?
3. Why did this medical center allow you to mess around in their lab and ruin their test samples?
4. The next time you make claims of this sort, could you please provide real names of peoples and places?
1 that is one of medical centers in US that has lab for this kind of research and they do research in cancer.

2. The lady is my friend and she workes there do research inc ancer biology.

3.I DIDNT MESSED AROUND< and DIDNT RUINED ANY TESTS!

4.There will be a name and address and all that needed if that can be concidered as a claim, still suppose JREF would want there LAB or who ever work with them..

here is the description of what was done in lab, from the Lady that did it for me.

DU145 and LNCaP cell lines are one of the most studied human epithelial prostate cancer cell line that have been established from a brain metastases and lymph node metastasis of prostate cancer, respectively and are highly aggressive. Du145 or LNCaP cell were plated at 1x104 cells per 35mm dishes in triplicate for each treatment. Cells were grown (37ºC,5% CO2) for 48hr and then treatment has been applied. After treatment cells were placed back in the incubator and grown until either of the treatments reached about 90% confluence and counted using trypan blue exclusion growth assay.

For DU145 cells "Bad" treatment induced growth by 36% in comparison with control. This difference was statistically significant (for two-tailed t-test, p=0.0082). "BAd" treatment has no effect on growth of the DU145 cells. For LNCaP cells both treatments "good" and "bad" reduced number of viable cells, by 28% (p=0.01) and 31% (p=0.01), respectively.

Last edited by pavel_do; 10th March 2008 at 09:07 AM.
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 09:06 AM   #139
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
Pavel_do, you said:



My response to this was:



After not responding to my inquiry you went silent for two solid months.

If you read the Achau Nguyen protocol properly you would have noticed that the Centre for Inquiry West (CFI) was the organisation which ran the test. That is what they can do.

I suggest you focus on one claim. Then you submit a proper application. You seemed to be bent on demonstrating your claimed telepathy.



To avoid miscommunication, I also suggest you use a spell checker.



P.S: You say (bolded parts):



Have you already scheduled a test with an institution? Which one?

SOrry for not writing for going silent for 2 month, had my own reasons, as we all know there is life to cope on daly basis..


regarding scheduled test and institution, Since it only today as Spring brake over i can arrange it all, i sent some letters but there was no reply but the aotomatic answer that due to spring brake no one at there work place at Univercity
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 10:35 AM   #140
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
 
Czarcasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
1 that is one of medical centers in US that has lab for this kind of research and they do research in cancer.

2. The lady is my friend and she workes there do research inc ancer biology.

3.I DIDNT MESSED AROUND< and DIDNT RUINED ANY TESTS!

4.There will be a name and address and all that needed if that can be concidered as a claim, still suppose JREF would want there LAB or who ever work with them..

here is the description of what was done in lab, from the Lady that did it for me.

DU145 and LNCaP cell lines are one of the most studied human epithelial prostate cancer cell line that have been established from a brain metastases and lymph node metastasis of prostate cancer, respectively and are highly aggressive. Du145 or LNCaP cell were plated at 1x104 cells per 35mm dishes in triplicate for each treatment. Cells were grown (37ºC,5% CO2) for 48hr and then treatment has been applied. After treatment cells were placed back in the incubator and grown until either of the treatments reached about 90% confluence and counted using trypan blue exclusion growth assay.

For DU145 cells "Bad" treatment induced growth by 36% in comparison with control. This difference was statistically significant (for two-tailed t-test, p=0.0082). "BAd" treatment has no effect on growth of the DU145 cells. For LNCaP cells both treatments "good" and "bad" reduced number of viable cells, by 28% (p=0.01) and 31% (p=0.01), respectively.
1. What "medical center"?
2. What is this lady's name?
3. Why did a medical center let you get any farther than the information desk? Are you not the "Unauthorized Personnel" that is supposedly prohibited from doing what you've claimed to have done?
4. Do you even realize that, until you provide real information that can be checked up on, what you've provided so far is not evidence of anything than an ability to tell stories?
__________________
The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world.
I loooove my meds!
Czarcasm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 11:34 AM   #141
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
1. What "medical center"?
2. What is this lady's name?
3. Why did a medical center let you get any farther than the information desk? Are you not the "Unauthorized Personnel" that is supposedly prohibited from doing what you've claimed to have done?
4. Do you even realize that, until you provide real information that can be checked up on, what you've provided so far is not evidence of anything than an ability to tell stories?
In addition to Czarcasm's inquiries, I'd like to ask if you have abandoned the pursuit of proving your claim of telepathy?
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 04:37 PM   #142
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
1. What "medical center"?
2. What is this lady's name?
3. Why did a medical center let you get any farther than the information desk? Are you not the "Unauthorized Personnel" that is supposedly prohibited from doing what you've claimed to have done?
4. Do you even realize that, until you provide real information that can be checked up on, what you've provided so far is not evidence of anything than an ability to tell stories?


1. I can not tell ladys name without her permission,
2. medical center is the one she work in, cant name it for same reason.
3.The lady work there and work on cancer biology research, I DIDN'T BROKE IN or something, i don't understand why all jumped on me as if i committed crime by "treating" cancer cells...?? what wrong with that?? I was allowed to enter Lab with her permission, and her concern, not on my own...!
4. I DO realize that i have to provide all detail.. that why I AM ASKING FIRST if it CAN BE A CLAIM.. in order NOT to waist any ones time.. If it can be claim, i have to do it officially with all record etc, that will include report form tests and same time that will be Academic witnessing...as you understand it is not that easy,. you come to any center and tell them I can influence cells...you know what they will tell you..?? If the medical center i been to will agree is fine,.. if not ill try to find any other who would be interested in such tests, the lady that made tests agreed to prepare detailed report and description of what was done in order to provide to a medical center.
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 04:51 PM   #143
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
In addition to Czarcasm's inquiries, I'd like to ask if you have abandoned the pursuit of proving your claim of telepathy?

No i did not abandoned it.. but just thinking that cancer cells more impotent than , "guessing" of the Zenner cards... cause it can be useful as human lifes is involved.
beside that as i mentioned before, i think it make all easy for both sides, I still have to get academic witnessing and all the papers in order.. weather for zenner or cells.. beside that i think it make easier judgment.. cause for example in cells case, the medical academics will count them and give there report i just do what i have to do and that it waiting for results.. As in case of Zenner cards Ok, the protocol that you suggested fair and seem easy also can be used in my case with a bit of changes and correction, fair enough, But after 1 test has to be the actual one as we all know, and what if ill be told to make 100 runs if zenners cards etc..,? i don't think i can make such marathons... AND AGAIN i think that Cancer cells more important than Zenner cards,, If it can not be a claim, i still go for zenner cards, at the moment all i need it so get Academic witnessing, i sent letters to the guys form University that i been in touch when i was last time in US, due to the Spring brake there was no answer yet, but i will get it one of this days any way and will go for it. I understand that 90% here sure that i am one of BLA -BLA -BLA psychics and time wasters.. but really i don't have time to waist not my not any one elites.. Beside that for example if the Cancer cells claim can be accepted and ill find Lab that officially will support me and help em with reports etc, If i get 1.000.000$ i keep for my self only 10% the rest will go to the medical center for cancer research or any other, cause i can "work" with other tip of cells if there will be tests and interest for it..
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 05:19 PM   #144
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Pavel_do, while it seems nice that you think "cancer cells more important" it does not bring you any closer to the JREF Prize without academic support, a proper application and two controlled tests.

You know the path. Travel it.



For the record: I have seen the dance you dance. And I stand by my prediction that you will not enter a controlled test of your claimed ability.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2008, 05:25 PM   #145
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
I take the liberty to restate part of what I said in post #88:

Can you provide a "document from an academic who has witnessed (your) powers or abilities"?
Such a document could be a simple affidavit, reading something like this: "I have witnessed the claimed power by (your name) in a demonstration and I can offer no rational explanation for it." (Signed by the academic, date, address, etc.)

Again, only the JREF can answer officially: challenge@randi.org
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 01:10 AM   #146
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,092
One thing that raises a red flag. I would expect that to go to a lab and do work you would need permission from someone who was a manager there. After all your lady friend does not own the equipment there.

You have a long way to go.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 07:54 AM   #147
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,187
Pavel,

1. Who was in charge of those cancer cells, your friend or someone else?

2. If it was someone else, did they know that you treated those cells?

3. If your friend was in charge, do her superiors know you treated those cells?

4. Who funded this research, and do they know that you treated those cells?

It's hard to imagine any set of answers to these question that won't end up in some serious transgression of protocol, which is not a good way to discover knowledge in general. You're off to a bad start.
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 09:20 AM   #148
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing that raises a red flag. I would expect that to go to a lab and do work you would need permission from someone who was a manager there. After all your lady friend does not own the equipment there.

You have a long way to go.
My friend is allowed to bring people, she is not a dishwasher or cleaner there...
No she is not owe the equipment, and she done it out of her own time, grown cells, counted them etc..
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 09:46 AM   #149
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Pavel,

1. Who was in charge of those cancer cells, your friend or someone else?


2. If it was someone else, did they know that you treated those cells?
3. If your friend was in charge, do her superiors know you treated those cells?

4. Who funded this research, and do they know that you treated those cells?

It's hard to imagine any set of answers to these question that won't end up in some serious transgression of protocol, which is not a good way to discover knowledge in general. You're off to a bad start.

1. My friend and her colleague.
2. No, even my friend don't know what exactly i done with them accept that i done something. After my treatment cells was treated same was as all others.
3. YEs her Superior know that i done it, and know that she done it in her own time not during her work.
4. To grow "plate" of cells cost 1 dollar, to count them she done it for free..
AGAIN, why every body talk like i committed a crime..?? what is wrong with it..?? Now i regret that i said what i said, never thought it is something bad, to try and help some one. No one questioning funds and other things, labs etc when it about Auro, zener cards or I don't know claims that some one fly.. What do you expect?? me to say i can do such thing with cells, and never do it at first place,,?? i don't it and i said so... You have to understand if i would just come to any clinic with offer to treat cells, no one take it seriously, and you know that.. So my friend was able to do that for me, IN HER OWN FREE TIME.. there is no crime, if doctor in hes free time trying to cure someone or i don't know helping some one out of own intentions...I see nothing wrong with that...
Any way, i sent email to officials of JREF asking if it can be a claim, from there answer I'll take it.. If they say yes, i will find a clinic or a medical center that would agree to support me in this to make a proper tests, with official reports and records, and when it will be all done , and if JREF will accept it all the prize money will go to that Clinic or medical center or what ever. IF ANY OF YOU KNOW ANY CENTER LIKE THAT AND CAN SUGGEST ME OR GIVE ME CONTACT DETAILS INSTEAD OF ACCUSING ME, I WOULD BE GRATEFUL, CAUSE AS I SAID I THINK CANCER IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN ALL THIS CLAIMS HERE THAT IN THE END OF THE DAY USELESS, I CAN SHOW I CAN GUESS ZENER CARDS, SO WHAT? WHAT DOES IT CHANGE?? WHAT? OR SOME ONE CAN READ MIND.. SO WHAT?? BUT IF OUT OF WHAT I CAN DO SOME ONE LIFE CAN BE SAVED THAT WHAT IS MATTERS. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORK, MAYBE THERE IS SOME SPECIAL RAY APPEARS OUT OF MY HANDS, OR WHEN I "PRAY" AND THAT CAN BE SOME HOW RECORDED OR REPEATED OR SOMETHING, AND THAN WITH THAT CAN BE USED TO FIGHT CANCER...
till there answer i think it is useless, to explain anything more, cause all you do it just jumping on me as on a criminal..i can not understand that to be honest.
Good luck to every body. If you have any suggestion about what do i do with such "gift" please sent me a message in private.
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 11:37 AM   #150
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
...
I CAN SHOW I CAN GUESS ZENER CARDS, SO WHAT?
...
Prove it, pavel_do.

You will get 1,000,000 USD if you perform to the success criteria given in the Achau Nguyen protocol.

Then you could fund a lot of cancer research.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 02:33 PM   #151
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,187
PavelDo, I apologize for jumping the gun, and I think I now understand. This was an informal, private experiment that you and your friend did, not as part of her official duties at her institution, is that right?
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 02:33 PM   #152
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
 
Czarcasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
1. My friend and her colleague.
2. No, even my friend don't know what exactly i done with them accept that i done something. After my treatment cells was treated same was as all others.
3. YEs her Superior know that i done it, and know that she done it in her own time not during her work.
4. To grow "plate" of cells cost 1 dollar, to count them she done it for free..
AGAIN, why every body talk like i committed a crime..?? what is wrong with it..?? Now i regret that i said what i said, never thought it is something bad, to try and help some one. No one questioning funds and other things, labs etc when it about Auro, zener cards or I don't know claims that some one fly.. What do you expect?? me to say i can do such thing with cells, and never do it at first place,,?? i don't it and i said so... You have to understand if i would just come to any clinic with offer to treat cells, no one take it seriously, and you know that.. So my friend was able to do that for me, IN HER OWN FREE TIME.. there is no crime, if doctor in hes free time trying to cure someone or i don't know helping some one out of own intentions...I see nothing wrong with that...
Any way, i sent email to officials of JREF asking if it can be a claim, from there answer I'll take it.. If they say yes, i will find a clinic or a medical center that would agree to support me in this to make a proper tests, with official reports and records, and when it will be all done , and if JREF will accept it all the prize money will go to that Clinic or medical center or what ever. IF ANY OF YOU KNOW ANY CENTER LIKE THAT AND CAN SUGGEST ME OR GIVE ME CONTACT DETAILS INSTEAD OF ACCUSING ME, I WOULD BE GRATEFUL, CAUSE AS I SAID I THINK CANCER IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN ALL THIS CLAIMS HERE THAT IN THE END OF THE DAY USELESS, I CAN SHOW I CAN GUESS ZENER CARDS, SO WHAT? WHAT DOES IT CHANGE?? WHAT? OR SOME ONE CAN READ MIND.. SO WHAT?? BUT IF OUT OF WHAT I CAN DO SOME ONE LIFE CAN BE SAVED THAT WHAT IS MATTERS. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORK, MAYBE THERE IS SOME SPECIAL RAY APPEARS OUT OF MY HANDS, OR WHEN I "PRAY" AND THAT CAN BE SOME HOW RECORDED OR REPEATED OR SOMETHING, AND THAN WITH THAT CAN BE USED TO FIGHT CANCER...
till there answer i think it is useless, to explain anything more, cause all you do it just jumping on me as on a criminal..i can not understand that to be honest.
Good luck to every body. If you have any suggestion about what do i do with such "gift" please sent me a message in private.
1. QUIT YELLING!
2. Why do we have to find you a medical center, when you already have one you've already worked with before? Are you not welcome there?
__________________
The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world.
I loooove my meds!
Czarcasm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 04:12 PM   #153
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Exclamation finaly arrived..

Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
PavelDo, I apologize for jumping the gun, and I think I now understand. This was an informal, private experiment that you and your friend did, not as part of her official duties at her institution, is that right?
Exactly! To make it official its like ask a queen to land you Million and if you do so.. You have to be sure some one need it.... so i asked here first... Hallelujah! some one understood.
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th March 2008, 04:32 PM   #154
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
1. QUIT YELLING!
2. Why do we have to find you a medical center, when you already have one you've already worked with before? Are you not welcome there?
1. I just tried to make my self as clear as possible..
2. You don’t have to.. I just told that as a reply to all the jumping at me as on criminal.. It is not that easy to step in any medical center or research centre and offer them such things.. in 90% cases no one even will listen to you and you know that.. So i said if any one know any..?? That why lady done this experiment out of her own time and wile, informal tests.. And the centre where it was done NOt interested in such kind of experiments and test.. Unfortunately, not many would be interested.. and you know why?? cause most of them there aim is to make as much money as possible from you before you die.. that the idea.. Who would care to make tests with the guy, who lets say can make tumor less?? so what?? no pills can be produced out of it to make profit from, no use.. Cancer treatment costs hundred of thousands dollars.. and in general sad thing not cares much how many people survive but care how much money was done out of it.. I think you all got my point.. and no need to say something more.. to avoid more jumping on me as if I done horrible crime..
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th March 2008, 02:01 AM   #155
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
1. I just tried to make my self as clear as possible..
2. You don’t have to.. I just told that as a reply to all the jumping at me as on criminal.. It is not that easy to step in any medical center or research centre and offer them such things.. in 90% cases no one even will listen to you and you know that.. So i said if any one know any..?? That why lady done this experiment out of her own time and wile, informal tests.. And the centre where it was done NOt interested in such kind of experiments and test.. Unfortunately, not many would be interested.. and you know why?? cause most of them there aim is to make as much money as possible from you before you die.. that the idea.. Who would care to make tests with the guy, who lets say can make tumor less?? so what?? no pills can be produced out of it to make profit from, no use.. Cancer treatment costs hundred of thousands dollars.. and in general sad thing not cares much how many people survive but care how much money was done out of it.. I think you all got my point.. and no need to say something more.. to avoid more jumping on me as if I done horrible crime..
My dear self-indulgent, jumped-on-as-on-a-criminal, exclusively talking pavel_do:

1. You repeatedly claimed you could prove telepathy using Zener cards.
2. You found the Achau Nguyen protocol fair - which tested a similar claim.
3. You claimed to have the necessary media presence.

Why aren't you setting a test date yet with the JREF?
Why aren't you making room on your bank account for the sizable income derived from you claimed ability?
Why aren't you deciding which cancer research programme you want to donate the 90% of the prize money?

Of course, these are all rhetorical questions. We know the answers.

Last edited by GzuzKryzt; 12th March 2008 at 02:02 AM.
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th March 2008, 06:03 AM   #156
pavel_do
Critical Thinker
 
pavel_do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 363
Post

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
My dear self-indulgent, jumped-on-as-on-a-criminal, exclusively talking pavel_do:

1. You repeatedly claimed you could prove telepathy using Zener cards.
2. You found the Achau Nguyen protocol fair - which tested a similar claim.
3. You claimed to have the necessary media presence.

Why aren't you setting a test date yet with the JREF?
Why aren't you making room on your bank account for the sizable income derived from you claimed ability?
Why aren't you deciding which cancer research programme you want to donate the 90% of the prize money?

Of course, these are all rhetorical questions. We know the answers.

GOOD MORNING What a lovely day seem like..

1.I still DO. and I will prove.
2. Yes i am finding it fair, just need a bit of correction for my case.
3. I do have media presence and JREF found it acceptable.

The date will be set after I sent finally again my claim to JREF and will get a reply from them as you know the rules. ( this time it will be easier as i am in US myself no need to send it from London). I just need to get a Academical witnessing at the moment to complete application,. but as i said before, waiting fro a reply, will get it as soon as. The previous one, got lost in post when i sent first application.
pavel_do is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th March 2008, 08:20 AM   #157
Cuddles
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,774
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
2. Yes i am finding it fair, just need a bit of correction for my case.
Why?
Cuddles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th March 2008, 09:31 AM   #158
yairhol
Graduate Poster
 
yairhol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,401
You guys want to start the betting?
I'll go first. $20 he doesn't apply for any number of reasons (lost application, not meeting the JREF deadline for the challenge, evaporation into thin air, etc.).
yairhol is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th March 2008, 12:14 PM   #159
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,187
You should disqualify Pavel Do from taking you up on your bet. ; )
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th March 2008, 01:02 PM   #160
GzuzKryzt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,363
Originally Posted by pavel_do View Post
...
2. Yes i am finding it fair, just need a bit of correction for my case.
...
Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Why?
And what specifically? (Except that you will use a deck of cards.)
GzuzKryzt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » Welcome to ISF » Other Skeptical Organizations » JREF » Million Dollar Challenge

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:10 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.