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Tags | million dollar challenge |
View Poll Results: The MDC, should: |
be discontinued as advised by Randi | 38 | 25.17% | |
continue in its present form | 61 | 40.40% | |
be continued as a challenge for an amount of money | 36 | 23.84% | |
be increased | 16 | 10.60% | |
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll |
7th January 2008, 12:17 PM | #1 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Million Dollar Challenge - should it stay?
I'm encouraged to do this by the threads around discussing the removal of the challenge where it's plain that lots of people would like it to stay and I'd be interested in the numbers.
Now that people have had a little time to think about it, I'm starting a poll to find out for sure. Mods may wish to merge it with the other thread... |
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7th January 2008, 03:13 PM | #2 |
Biomechanoid
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Although you should be taken out back and horsewhipped for not including a Planet X option. In fact that could be the Planet X option - TA is taken out back and horsewhipped on Planet X.
I don't really understand Randi's reasons for discontinuing the Challenge. Yes, the million could be used elsewhere, but it's a huge draw...isn't it? |
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7th January 2008, 03:29 PM | #3 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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7th January 2008, 04:44 PM | #4 |
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Oh, THAT MDC.
I was thinking the Marquis was being discontinued by Randi. Carry on... |
7th January 2008, 04:49 PM | #5 |
Biomechanoid
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-Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm |
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7th January 2008, 04:51 PM | #6 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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7th January 2008, 10:10 PM | #7 |
Philosopher
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I voted not including so-called real-life implications, since it seems to be difficult to increase the prize money.
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7th January 2008, 10:31 PM | #8 |
Thinker
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I voted to keep there being a prize. Maybe it doesn't have to be a million, but it still should exist. As for Randi's proposed reason that there are better ways to spend the money, yes, that is why there are other organizations spending their own money in those ways. The JREF is not the only skeptical organization out there, it is however the only one offering a substantial prize for a fair demonstration. That niche needs to be filled, and it really isn't Randi's job to do anything else if he doesn't do that.
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7th January 2008, 11:23 PM | #9 |
Gentleman of leisure
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I do not think that we can say the MDC should go until we know what JREF are going to do with the $1m. Then we can say which is better (maybe).
I vote for the planet X option. It is not my fault you cannot see it. |
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7th January 2008, 11:36 PM | #10 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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If I was a multi-millionaire, I would be inclined to swoop in, and donate a million bucks, to save the challenge, (assuming it is really the money JREF needs).
Alas, I am not. But, I definately disapprove of the removal of the Challenge, at this time. I might change my mind, when I learn more about the circumstances. But, I think discontinuing the prize opens up arguments from the woos that we are backing down from a challenge. I think it makes us reek of weakness, in their eyes. And, furthermore, we are denying the opportunity for someone to actually earn it. Who are we to say it really could never happen? (Even if it is extraordinarily unlikely.) |
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8th January 2008, 05:30 AM | #11 |
Muse
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What difference does it make? It's Randi's challenge. He can do as he wishes with it.
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8th January 2008, 06:54 AM | #12 |
Critical Thinker
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Eligibility Criteria
Using Media Presence as Eligibility Criteria is illogical, as the media are more interested in Sensational or Extravagant claims, which are less likely to succeed - and those seeking publicity are more likely to have ulterior motives Eg Financial reasons, or ego needs.
Eligibility criterior is normally used to narrow the field down to those who are more likely to succeed, but with this challenge, the opposite is the case - They are more likely to fail - The conditions are therefore unfair. Anyone can get media exposure, if they really try, anyway. It doesn't prove anything except that they are more 'determined' or 'obsessive' about entering the challenge. Can I suggest using another eligibility criteria - Simply say that if anyone can pass one of the other (named) psychic challenges, then they could apply for this one - That should narrow it down a bit! This would keep the challenge going, but drastically reduce the workload. I'm sure that the financial problems could be overcome somehow |
8th January 2008, 08:43 AM | #13 |
Muse
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In fact, this very question is the crux of the issue. IS the MDC a huge draw? It's pretty clear to me that the MDC isn't a huge draw for potential challengers (unless you include the very few people who've taken the challenge so far), and it doesn't seem to be a huge draw for fence-sitters.
Mostly, it's used as a tool for skeptics, isn't it? It allows us to say, in conversations with believers and fence-sitters, "Look, no one has won the challenge! Surely if such-and-such was true, someone would be glad to win 1 mill for it!" The question we have to ask ourselves, as a community of skeptics: Is there a better tool than a million dollar challenge, and can Randi and the JREF use 1 million dollars to develop such a tool? I'd like to think so. If not, there are other organizations which can raise a 1 million dollar endowment for a similar challenge. |
8th January 2008, 08:56 AM | #14 |
Critical Thinker
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Focus, focus, focus
I have responded in similar fashion to the other MDC thread, but I will add here also. I have simply copied and pasted one of my responses from there.
Originally Posted by Santa666
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8th January 2008, 09:16 AM | #15 |
Graduate Poster
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One aspect that I haven't seen anyone mention is that the Challenge has a fairly narrow focus, compared to the overall focus of the JREF. Therefore JREF has a ton of money tied up focusing on only a subset of its chosen topic area of critical thinking.
Just look around at the topics in this forum, and you see tons of things that directly relate to critical thinking but are clearly untestable via the challenge. Just a few that come to mind are consipiracy theories, UFOs, bigfoot, the loch ness monster and ghosts. The challenge cannot help us battle these woos. Then there's the whole area of quackery including homeopathy, energy medicine machines and so on. These are very difficult to test properly due to the placebo effect as well as ethical concerns. The challenge cannot help us fight any of this. Even among paranormal claims, there are many untestable ones as explained in the JREF Challenge FAQ. The challenge cannot help us fight those. So I think you can make a good argument that the challenge is way too narrow to do much good on the overall critical thinking battlefront. --Tim Farley |
8th January 2008, 09:24 AM | #16 |
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Indeed, it is the draw that put Randi on the map, no? Can he survive long-term without it?
Could be yes, could be no...could be he doesn't care. I'm thinking...no, not unless he can come up with an equal or better publicity scheme. I'm not sure this forum meets that objective, and I know of no other initiative in the works. |
8th January 2008, 09:58 AM | #17 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Where's the "I don't know" option? Not being 'cute' here, I think we'd be a lot more intellectually honest if we realized there's a whole host of things we don't know. I don't know the best way to run the JREF. I've thought about it a lot, met Randi (briefly), read this site daily, and JREF holds a dear place in my heart. But I am not involved enough in the day to day operations to say. Neither do we have detailed information on what will be done with the million.
Why not just say "I don't know"? |
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8th January 2008, 10:00 AM | #18 |
Thinker
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As I said in the other thread: What else do they do? The JREF and MDC are, in my opinion, synonymous.
Even if they have great and wonderful ideas for the money, will they follow thru and do them? (Remember the last change?) |
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8th January 2008, 10:16 AM | #19 |
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Perhaps if more people would take the challenge it would be kept.
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8th January 2008, 10:26 AM | #20 |
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I'm reconsidering my initial opinion.
Technology is advancing at such a rate that the ability to pull off a win using new technology is becoming a substantial risk. A million doesn't buy what it once did but for sure it, along with the publicity that comes with it, would buy quite a lot. It's worth the risk to roll the dices. Consider a simple test: two people (call them identical twins for promotional purposes) claim to be able to communicate telepathically if separated by no more than mere distance. Consider too that each of the two have a micro-burst transmitter implanted surgically somewhere within their body. Sure, such a cheat would be suspected after they passed the initial test, but what would Randi have to require of them to continue on to the finial test? An MRI? That's just one example, there are many. Maybe now is the time. |
8th January 2008, 10:49 AM | #21 |
New Blood
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Could this also have anything to do with Randi's age, health and perhaps he wants to see to the disposition of it while he is still able to?
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8th January 2008, 12:19 PM | #22 |
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Why isn’t there a “continue without money” choice?
The offer of money has been used as a negative as much as a positive . . . “It doesn’t exist” (implying Randi is a liar) “It won’t be paid” (implying Randi is dishonest) “My ’gift’ is not for sale“ (implying “gifted“ people are “holier than thou“) “etc, etc”. To be able to say that the $1,000,000 challenge did exist for 10 years is sufficient. As an alternative - Instead of the JREF offering a challenge to prove claims for money, perhaps it should offer an “invitation to verify claims” without money. There should be a set of standard tests with standard protocols to cover most of the common paranormal claims. This would greatly reduce the time spent by JREF and would let people know upfront what they are “in for“. JREF shouldn’t cater for fringe “I can make you pee” claims. The JREF invitation/challenge should be - “Verify your claims for the good of humanity”. |
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8th January 2008, 12:23 PM | #23 |
red-shirted crewman
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I think the biggest factor here, and one that is not being stated explicitly enough, is that the one million dollar challenge is a failure - at least at what it was initially aimed at. Randi's original challenge, which started at $1000, and grew to $10,000, was almost a part of his persona. The fact that he always had a cheque for the amount in his wallet, ready to be awarded at a moment's notice to anyone who could demonstrate the paranormal to him was part of his curmudgeonly personality, and what drew the media to him. The main reason the challenge was expanded to $1,000,000, and formalized in the manner it has been was to attempt to draw in the big names - the Sylvia Brownes, the Uri Gellars, etc. In that respect it has failed. And is anyone surprised?
I suspect that if any of the high-profile woos who have been avoiding Randi like the plague for a decade choose to open their fat faces about the demise of the challenge, Randi will be right there, in their aforementioned faces, offering to implement it once more, just for them. I'm rather looking forward to watching the panicked backpedalling that will ensue. |
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8th January 2008, 12:48 PM | #24 |
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I voted that the money challenge should continue in some form or another.
a monetary challenge can still serve to stamp out the small frye before they have a chance to start and continue to put a small amount of pressure on the big wig con artists. But like someone pointed out in another thread, the challenges are only being taken by the self-diluded. The original purpose of the MDC, I think, was to draw out the ones who do the real damage to society: the media whores and big con artists like S. Browne, et. al. In this respect I think the MDC has outlived it's primary usefullness. Quite frankly, the million dollars is no longer a draw to the Brownes and Edwards. They make far more money from thier BS so it does not serve thier purposes to even consider taking a challenge for only a mear million dollars. They can sit there forever putting off and ignoring the MDC while spewing out all kinds of lame excuses that thier adherents willingly swallow and continue to rake in the cash. To them the MDC is nothing but a mild irratant. What is important to these people is the media. The Montell shows, the Crossing Over television shows. TV series like "Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium" that promote the bunk that is thier bread and butter. This is how they gain the the chattel they feed on. I hate to say it but Randi and the JREF does not yet posses the media clout that these criminals have. Just about any rube on the street knows who Sylvia Browne is, but there are very few who know who James Randi is. That is the area where I think the JREF needs to address. Some times you have to fight fire with fire. Even if it means debasing yourself down to the level of media whoreing. There needs to be more media fur rankleing. Chris Angel got an idea. At least he caused a few blogs to hum for a few days. It's a start. Yea, I know it's sensationalistic and melodramatic, (Heck, I even criticized J. Randi for going ballistic on S. Browne's press secretary once. But I see the bigger picture now) but the general viewing public has degenrated down to jaded, voyeristic, attention deficite, dirty laundry junkies. Just look at the programs lately on Discovery and TLC. What shame. I fear the same will happen soon to CSPAN and, heaven forbid, the NASA channel. JREF and skepticizim needs to be media marketed also. Hit the charletans where it hurts: on TV. You could turn the MDC into a *shudder* reality show series.*retch* Televise the tests. There would be plenty of takers and the show's media exposure would put even greater pressure on the fat cash hyenas. Produce TV shows that promote skepticizim and scientific thinking unapologeticaly especially in the areas of the paranormal. You could make a movie or create a detective series about a hero that goes around protecting people from getting swindled by psychics and charletans. Heck, you could throw in a murder, shoot out or car chase or two. You could have CSI-style montages with euro-porno music playing in the background while the hero investigates and explains the technics and gadgets the swindlers use. You could pattern the villans after Browne and others (lawyers allowing) I know it would be a long row to hoe, The public likes to cling to favored warm and fuzzy fantasies. On the serious side, JREF could lobby for tougher laws and enforcement concerining truth in advertising and change the dietary suppliment definitions that homeopathy and quack medicinery hide behind. Lobby for laws that force societal cancers like Browne, Edwards, and other hokum artists like Pear audio to scientificaly and legaly prove thier abilities before they can profit from them. God, what ever happen to truth in advertising laws? What ever happend to our patent office too while your'e at it. Don't let them hide under the ambiguous umbrella of "entertainment" or a "church". Ok. So these may be bad ideas and you may never win at thier game. But you could at least make it as uncomfortable as possible for them. You know, comfort the aflicted and aflict the comfortable. |
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8th January 2008, 12:54 PM | #25 |
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8th January 2008, 01:35 PM | #26 |
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That would be cool. Every week they could tackle a different subject.
A show similar to Mythbusters but for paranormal, gadgets and homepathic subjects would be cool too. They could call it "Crapbusters" or "Step Away from that Psychic Hotline!". Penn and Teller's show is pretty good but it's a bit too free with the ad hominims (even if they are deserved) and it's on skinamax. something more mainstream would be better. |
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8th January 2008, 01:51 PM | #27 |
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I'm with the "keep the challenge" crowd.
Several people have said that the million could be leveraged to better effect elsewhere. But I think we are losing a tool to combat claimants (You can levitate? Well there's a million bucks if you can prove it!). Also, once the MDC goes away, I can only imagine psychics, et al coming out of the woo(!)dwork saying, "You see? It was a scam! Randi's running scared!" |
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8th January 2008, 01:56 PM | #28 |
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8th January 2008, 02:19 PM | #29 |
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Is that really any better than “If you genuinely have the ability to levitate, then this is the most scientifically significant ability ever. For the good of humanity, will you please validate your ability in a credible test.” If not - Why not.?
What lame excuse are they going to use against "the good of humanity"? |
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8th January 2008, 07:58 PM | #30 |
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Mrs. T: What does it presage? Mrs. O: You have green, scaly skin, and a soft yellow underbelly with a series of fin-like ridges running down your spine and tail. Although lizardlike in shape, you can grow anything up to thirty feet in length with huge teeth that can bite off great rocks and trees. You inhabit arid sub-tropical zones and wear spectacles. Mrs. T: It's very good about the spectacles! |
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8th January 2008, 07:59 PM | #31 |
Muse
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Mrs. T: What does it presage? Mrs. O: You have green, scaly skin, and a soft yellow underbelly with a series of fin-like ridges running down your spine and tail. Although lizardlike in shape, you can grow anything up to thirty feet in length with huge teeth that can bite off great rocks and trees. You inhabit arid sub-tropical zones and wear spectacles. Mrs. T: It's very good about the spectacles! |
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8th January 2008, 08:20 PM | #32 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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8th January 2008, 09:04 PM | #33 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Interesting results, over 75% wanting a challenge to continue.
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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8th January 2008, 09:20 PM | #34 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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8th January 2008, 11:32 PM | #35 |
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I have to agree with Uruk.
If anything, this is a proof that it's time to move on. If it's true that Randi had to raise the amount of money at a certain point where 1000 dollars wasn't enough, it is also true now. Either you raise the offer to 100 million dollars or you switch to another thing. Certainly one Million dollars can't compete with what these charlatans are making out of their scams. I agree that you have to fight fire with fire and there's nothing more painful to these bastards than hitting them with media. Virtually no one that I speak to knows who James Randi or Michael Shermer or Daniel Dennett is (They also ignore that Criss Angel and Penn & Teller are actually skeptics themselves)... but they know of a lot of "psychics" and "mediums". And a lot of them, true reasonable minded, have never considered that maybe a much simpler rational explanation to their "powers" could explain what they do. I think that the JREF should seriously consider the possiblity offered by Uruk. It's time for a real Media Presence, even if it means selling out a little bit. Criss Angel seems to be going that way. Maybe he should be the one to "inherit the crown after Randi" |
1st February 2008, 06:18 PM | #36 |
Critical Thinker
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I voted to discontinue the prize. How many times have potential challengers declined the invitation because they're "not in it for the money"? It's time to get rid of this excuse, and also any speculation that JREF is protecting the money unfairly. Take the money out of the equation and spend it on educating the masses.
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3rd February 2008, 07:00 AM | #37 |
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The media requirement makes it easier for those who are likely to fail.
It is therefore not a bona fide challenge, but a meaningless publicity gimmick |
3rd February 2008, 07:50 AM | #38 |
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Perhaps you should repeat your latin classes. Or your comprehension 101s. Or both.
It looks like a pattern in your posting history, since this was one of the most puzzling claims ever and it showed you probably had no idea what you were talking about. Sour grapes, Speed of Light? |
3rd February 2008, 08:20 AM | #39 |
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Seems that, by your own words, the media requirement isn't all that limiting after all, is it? May I suggest that, if you were to pass one of the other challenges, it would be quite likely you would get your name in the paper, thus satisfying the media requirement? |
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5th February 2008, 03:19 AM | #40 |
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No sorry Randi but i disagree with you. No matter how you try to tell this story the woo-woo's will claim it as a Victory. "See i told you, there never WAS a million"..... Using the money now is a horrible mistake even if it is used for a very good purpose. The million need to be there in order for Randi to "put his money where his mouth is".
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