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headscratcher4 · 13th February 2003, 11:42 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Feb12.html

shecky · 13th February 2003, 04:19 PM

Yet another reason to get religion while in prison. From the looks in the picture, all we need are a bunch of skinheads well versed in scripture.

Checkmite · 13th February 2003, 07:40 PM

Prison isn't summer camp. Conditions are supposed to be sufficient, not luxurious. Effectively giving prisoners lighter sentences if they decide to become Christian is just plain wrong. The convict isn't there to go to church, he's there to be isolated because he stole something that belonged to somebody else, vandalized someone else's property, or ruined (or ended) someone else's life. I wonder how many of these people are actually naive enough to believe that even the bulk of their born-again inmates are being honest.

I'll_buy_that · 28th February 2003, 11:40 AM

Well, this is one good reason to take up religion in prison. Why wouldn't you? something to do, private bathrooms, more freedom?

This brings up the observation that a lot of people in prison take up religion and begin to say it changed their lives, the born again phenominon (sp?).

anyway, why do you think it changes their lives? do you think it is the fatalism that they like? (it's not my fault) or the forgiveness? (I'm not really that bad) or the thing that usually attracts the downtrodden (there is a better life somewhere kind of the meak shall enherit the earth / a rich man cannot get into heaven kind of teaching that attracts a lot to religion)

Skeptical Greg · 28th February 2003, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shecky
Yet another reason to get religion while in prison. From the looks in the picture, all we need are a bunch of skinheads well versed in scripture.

LOL..

SimonJohnMorgan · 28th February 2003, 02:29 PM

I have to confess, that whilst I think the US has far too many lawsuits, I hope they win. Unless there is a similar program for Islam, Paganism, Aethiesm*, etc, in which case I think it's okay. Whilst I disagree with any religion, most provide/are selectively read from and interpreted to provide some form of moral framework (even if you don't agree with the details - which I don't) which is what I guess prisoners need. Don't forget prison is there to punish, act as a deterrent, and to reform**

*Okay this would have to take the form of some form of ethics discussions, etc, but you get the drift.

**Which I do genuinely believe in. Not that I think it does a good job of reforming, just that is what it should be there for in principle

28th February 2003, 04:49 PM

Yet I doubt anyone would get their underwear in a bunch if the inmates were given Sagan and Randi books or any other skeptical bibles, or encouraged to research atheism.

Ladewig · 28th February 2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Moreover, he said, prisoners who have gone through InnerChange's oldest program -- established in Texas in 1997 -- have a repeat offender rate of "only 8 percent, as compared to general recidivism rates of over 50 percent and a control group rate of 20 percent."

If it is a voluntary program, how did they choose inmates for the control group? Did the control group have everything the Christian group had except the Bible study?

28th February 2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Yet I doubt anyone would get their underwear in a bunch if the inmates were given Sagan and Randi books or any other skeptical bibles, or encouraged to research atheism.

And yet most of us would probably be against programs sponsored and enforced by the government to teach about the holyness and the glory of The Most Holy Ressurrection of the Third Reich.

Oh, but I forgot, the JREF is a cult, and critical thinking and skepticism is a relgion. How silly of me

arcticpenguin · 28th February 2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

according to two lawsuits filed yesterday, they are given keys to their cell doors, private bathrooms, free phone calls -- even access to big-screen TVs.

I would think giving them the keys to their cells would be enough, then they could escape and get the other stuff themselves.

gmol · 28th February 2003, 09:33 PM

I'm not sure I'd care what was in their prison library.
The point is that they were being *rewarded* for 'immersing themselves" in Biblical study (state/religon, you know the rest of the song).

I think people would have just a big a problem to reward inmates on how much they immersed themselves in astronomy.

Actually I may take that back as I bet there have been fewer people who were criminals and astronomers as there were people who were criminals and christian (including those dman christian astronomers!)

.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Yet I doubt anyone would get their underwear in a bunch if the inmates were given Sagan and Randi books or any other skeptical bibles, or encouraged to research atheism.

2nd March 2003, 09:48 AM

If it is a voluntary program, how did they choose inmates for the control group? Did the control group have everything the Christian group had except the Bible study?

That's a good question. It sounds as though they just compared the christian group to a general prison population group-- maybe with similar offenses/backgrounds?

Flick

13th February 2003, 11:42 AM	#1
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Law suit contests prison ministry programs ... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Feb12.html
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

13th February 2003, 07:40 PM	#3
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,981	Prison isn't summer camp. Conditions are supposed to be sufficient, not luxurious. Effectively giving prisoners lighter sentences if they decide to become Christian is just plain wrong. The convict isn't there to go to church, he's there to be isolated because he stole something that belonged to somebody else, vandalized someone else's property, or ruined (or ended) someone else's life. I wonder how many of these people are actually naive enough to believe that even the bulk of their born-again inmates are being honest.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

28th February 2003, 11:40 AM	#4
I'll_buy_that Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 384	Well, this is one good reason to take up religion in prison. Why wouldn't you? something to do, private bathrooms, more freedom? This brings up the observation that a lot of people in prison take up religion and begin to say it changed their lives, the born again phenominon (sp?). anyway, why do you think it changes their lives? do you think it is the fatalism that they like? (it's not my fault) or the forgiveness? (I'm not really that bad) or the thing that usually attracts the downtrodden (there is a better life somewhere kind of the meak shall enherit the earth / a rich man cannot get into heaven kind of teaching that attracts a lot to religion)
	__________________ "Religion has convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...he loves you and he needs money! He's all powerful, all knowing, and all capable but he just can't handle money!" -George Carlin

28th February 2003, 01:14 PM	#5
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,894	Quote: Originally posted by shecky Yet another reason to get religion while in prison. From the looks in the picture, all we need are a bunch of skinheads well versed in scripture. LOL..
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

28th February 2003, 02:29 PM	#6
SimonJohnMorgan New Blood Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 19	I have to confess, that whilst I think the US has far too many lawsuits, I hope they win. Unless there is a similar program for Islam, Paganism, Aethiesm, etc, in which case I think it's okay. Whilst I disagree with any religion, most provide/are selectively read from and interpreted to provide some form of moral framework (even if you don't agree with the details - which I don't) which is what I guess prisoners need. Don't forget prison is there to punish, act as a deterrent, and to reform* Okay this would have to take the form of some form of ethics discussions, etc, but you get the drift. *Which I do genuinely believe in. Not that I think it does a good job of reforming, just that is what it should be there for in principle
SimonJohnMorgan New Blood Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 19

13th February 2003, 04:19 PM	#2
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	Yet another reason to get religion while in prison. From the looks in the picture, all we need are a bunch of skinheads well versed in scripture.

28th February 2003, 04:49 PM	#7
Guest Posts: n/a	Yet I doubt anyone would get their underwear in a bunch if the inmates were given Sagan and Randi books or any other skeptical bibles, or encouraged to research atheism.
Guest Posts: n/a

28th February 2003, 05:59 PM	#8
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,944	Quote: Moreover, he said, prisoners who have gone through InnerChange's oldest program -- established in Texas in 1997 -- have a repeat offender rate of "only 8 percent, as compared to general recidivism rates of over 50 percent and a control group rate of 20 percent." If it is a voluntary program, how did they choose inmates for the control group? Did the control group have everything the Christian group had except the Bible study?

28th February 2003, 06:12 PM	#9
Plutarck Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Whodini Yet I doubt anyone would get their underwear in a bunch if the inmates were given Sagan and Randi books or any other skeptical bibles, or encouraged to research atheism. And yet most of us would probably be against programs sponsored and enforced by the government to teach about the holyness and the glory of The Most Holy Ressurrection of the Third Reich. Oh, but I forgot, the JREF is a cult, and critical thinking and skepticism is a relgion. How silly of me
Plutarck Guest Posts: n/a

28th February 2003, 06:17 PM	#10
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: according to two lawsuits filed yesterday, they are given keys to their cell doors, private bathrooms, free phone calls -- even access to big-screen TVs. I would think giving them the keys to their cells would be enough, then they could escape and get the other stuff themselves.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

28th February 2003, 09:33 PM	#11
gmol Scholar Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 87	I'm not sure I'd care what was in their prison library. The point is that they were being rewarded for 'immersing themselves" in Biblical study (state/religon, you know the rest of the song). I think people would have just a big a problem to reward inmates on how much they immersed themselves in astronomy. Actually I may take that back as I bet there have been fewer people who were criminals and astronomers as there were people who were criminals and christian (including those dman christian astronomers!) . Quote: Originally posted by Whodini Yet I doubt anyone would get their underwear in a bunch if the inmates were given Sagan and Randi books or any other skeptical bibles, or encouraged to research atheism.
gmol Scholar Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 87

2nd March 2003, 09:48 AM	#12
stamenflicker Guest Posts: n/a	If it is a voluntary program, how did they choose inmates for the control group? Did the control group have everything the Christian group had except the Bible study? That's a good question. It sounds as though they just compared the christian group to a general prison population group-- maybe with similar offenses/backgrounds? Flick
stamenflicker Guest Posts: n/a