Albedo change in melting glaciers due to industrial soot

[BenBurch]

About 5 years ago I opined that Greenland would be ice-free much sooner than estimated, and the reason is the burden of industrial soot in the snow laid down in the last 230 years from industrial activity.

Now, I know that there is the lubricating effect of water that is making the glaciers flow faster, and also the raw temperature input of GW, but does anybody know if soot has been factored into matters?

I've been reducing snow piles for years here by adding black carbon to them.

You pulverize a few carcoal briquets and the dust the top of the snow pile with it, and the pile will disappear in the sunlight much faster than a pile next to it which was not treated. And you do not need to re-treat the pile as very little of the carbon runs off because most of the water percolates down through the pile rather than running off it.

Now, precipitation washes the atmosphere, and so will do a good job of taking out soot. If the precipitation is snow, and becomes part of a glacier, then the soot will be trapped.

And layer after layer of snow has built up since 1780, and each layer would contain a burden of soot. Even though no single layer was darkened much by the soot, and even though the albedo of each later as it falls would not be darkened to a degree you'd notice, once the process of melting starts and the snow melts, the soot remains, each layer depositing its soot on the next and darkening it further. Until you have something that does resemble a city snowdrift, and which melts essentially all the snow and ice under it without ever having enough of the soot wash away to ameliorate the problem.

And I have looked, but I cannot find any reference to this mechanism with respect to Greenland. Does anybody know if this has been considered?

Or am I way off base here?

[BenBurch]

Listening to ABC Radio National's Science Show podcast, and they are talking about the Greenland ice sheet. Totally disturbing information.

Lots of mentions of melting and lubrication, but none of albedo.

ALSO a mention that Greenland-type melting is happening on landed glaciers in Antarctica now, and that the fear is that the meltwater will percolate down to the base of the glacier and, like Greenland, cause lubrication and glacier acceleration.

Now, Antarctica is NOT likely to have industrial soot being a major contributor to albedo change; The air in the Northern Hemisphere does not mix with the air in the Southern Hemisphere very efficiently, and Southern industrial activity has never been on the scale of that in the North.

[mhaze]

Ben, why don't you look this up and get back to us?

You don't seem to either like or accept what numerous people here say about Greenland.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by mhaze

Ben, why don't you look this up and get back to us?

You don't seem to either like or accept what numerous people here say about Greenland.

I appreciate what all of the Intelligent people here have to contribute.

And I *have* looked it up. And not found discussion of it, hence my asking here. As you would have known if you understood the OP.

Oh, and, Welcome to my ignore list.

[casebro]

Ben, it sounds plausible to me. But:

It takes a mighty fine particulate to stay airborne for thousands of miles. In the meantime them small particles of soot, being carbon, will react with the oxygen in the air- it's called 'burning'. So I doubt if a very high percentage of soot makes it to the glaciers. I would expect the city snow to be made dark by the direct application of exhaust to the fallen snow.

However, if the soot acts as the nucleus of a water droplet, then the droplet may protect the soot particle from oxidation. So every snowflake may have a dirty lining...

[mhaze]

Originally Posted by casebro

Ben, it sounds plausible to me. But:

It takes a mighty fine particulate to stay airborne for thousands of miles. In the meantime them small particles of soot, being carbon, will react with the oxygen in the air- it's called 'burning'.

Chemistry.

Soot lays down to rest on white snow.

Does reaction stop?

[mhaze]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I appreciate what all of the Intelligent people here have to contribute.

And I *have* looked it up. And not found discussion of it, hence my asking here. As you would have known if you understood the OP.

Oh, and, Welcome to my ignore list.

One of the intelligent people here may wish to whisper these words to Ben who is I am certain diligent in his quest for knowledge, in spite of what may be a growing ignore list. These words hold the key a perplexing riddle which has left him metastablically challenged, like one seeking to pry strategerically useful amounts of energy from hafnium.

"Ice Cores".