Electricians/Hardware people/moralists please help.

Rat · 19th September 2003, 04:11 PM

So I'm not normally too bad at assembling computers, and indeed most of the PC I now use is put together by me (the case, the floppy and one of the CD drives is original from what I inherited from my (living) parents. But I'm not too good on electrics.

My PC is on 24 hours a day. I came home from work yesterday to find it off. After a little fiddling, I found I couldn't turn it back on. The monitor on the same outlet was still working. First thoughts, in order of likelihood, are: fuse, psu, mobo. Other possibilities of course, but these to check first.

Have no five amp fuses, and the power cable isn't original, so I don't know if the original power cable was 5 amps. Try the lead from the kettle. Bright flash, smoke, stench. Kettle lead has 13 amp fuse.

Now my limited knowledge of electrical things and stuff tells me that the different fuse should not have caused this, and the psu was faulty. Is this correct? I bought the silent psu about 4 months ago to replace the roaring montrosity I had before. Now it's back to the jet engine psu (in the living room).

So, my question (eventually) is this: do I send back the psu as faulty? And do I tell them the circumstances under which it failed? That is, could I in any way have caused or quickened its demise?

Cheers,
Rat.

michaellee · 19th September 2003, 08:57 PM

Are you saying that your computer's power supply blew out a 13 amp fuse when in normally uses a 5 amp fuse?

arcticpenguin · 19th September 2003, 09:36 PM

I've got some translation problems. Kettle? Your computer has a kettle in it?

jj · 20th September 2003, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I've got some translation problems. Kettle? Your computer has a kettle in it?

It's probably that flat thing just below the coffee cup holder

Um, though, if it blew a 13 amp fuse when it should take a 5, um, yeah, something is like way long gone....

Don't plug it in again! Get the power supply fixed.

Underemployed · 20th September 2003, 09:33 AM

Do not mock the kettle, shallow ones. It makes our tea.

And yes, definitely replace your PSU. You may be lucky and find that no other components are damaged. Good luck getting a warranty replacement, you'll need it.

Whomp · 20th September 2003, 07:05 PM

Send it back ... don't say ANYTHING.

Morality? Pshaw!

We're talking a new power supply here!

Go for it.

Whomp!

_Q_ · 21st September 2003, 08:32 PM

You left your computer on, and came back to find it dead. There was already something wrong at that point.

If the only thing wrong at that point had been the fuse (let's say the computer was fine, but the fuse pixies came and burned out the fuse by magic), then your substitution of a higher-current fuse wouldn't have caused any problems. It still wouldn't have been wise (the value of the fuse is selected for a reason), but it wouldn't have damaged otherwise healthy equipment.

Now, your substitution of a higher-current fuse certainly allowed more spectacular physical damage to occur to the already-damaged unit, as evidenced by the fireworks. As far as warranty replacement is concerned, it seems to me that this only makes a difference if damaged units are repaired on a component level. I'm not in that line of work, but I know that a lot of stuff is inexpensive enough to manufacture that it's not economically viable to diagnose and repair it that way. It wouldn't surprise me to find that your power supply falls in that category.

By the way, is it customary there to have the fuse in the cord rather than in the cabinet? Does the power supply have some label on it indicating the appropriate value of fuse to use?

_Q_

Leif Roar · 22nd September 2003, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I've got some translation problems. Kettle? Your computer has a kettle in it?

Doesn't everyone's?

Unfortunately, I can't find the website where the guy who made the computer above detailed the process.

richardm · 22nd September 2003, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by _Q_

By the way, is it customary there to have the fuse in the cord rather than in the cabinet?

Yes. All UK electric plugs have integral fuses. Don't yours? Some devices also have secondary internal fuses, in case someone puts in a 13 amp fuse where a 5 amp one is desired...

KillerX · 22nd September 2003, 08:24 AM

If/when you do send the supply back, make sure you put the 5 amp fuse back in, don't send it with the 13 amp or they'll blame the whole thing on you.

_Q_ · 23rd September 2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm

Yes. All UK electric plugs have integral fuses. Don't yours? Some devices also have secondary internal fuses, in case someone puts in a 13 amp fuse where a 5 amp one is desired...

Typically, our cord sets aren't fused. Such cord sets might be available, but I've never personally run across them.

If a fuse is required and a detachable cord set is to be used, manufacturers can use a "power entry" assembly to provide for connection of the cord set to the equipment. These assemblies can be had with fuse holders, mains switches, and line filters, if desired. These other features are fairly common on industrial or laboratory equipment, less common on more cost sensitive consumer goods.

_Q_

_Q_ · 23rd September 2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Leif Roar

Doesn't everyone's?

Unfortunately, I can't find the website where the guy who made the computer above detailed the process.

Try here: http://www.pimprig.com/modules.php?n...ticle&artid=72

_Q_

ImpyTimpy · 23rd September 2003, 03:31 PM

No offense, but stay away from anything electrical in the future. Sticking a 13amp... wait, let me type this again..

13AMP fuse where a 5AMP fuse was supposed to be is downright idiotic. Sounds like you had a short, the 5amp fuse blew and maybe saved your components. Now you stuck a 13amp fuse (which means a lot more power went through your system before the fuse blew) and I think we can safely say you've screwed most of (or) the entire system completely.

_Q_ · 23rd September 2003, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
No offense, but stay away from anything electrical in the future. Sticking a 13amp... wait, let me type this again..

13AMP fuse where a 5AMP fuse was supposed to be is downright idiotic. Sounds like you had a short, the 5amp fuse blew and maybe saved your components. Now you stuck a 13amp fuse (which means a lot more power went through your system before the fuse blew) and I think we can safely say you've screwed most of (or) the entire system completely.

ImpyTimpy,

I won't defend the fuse substitution as a good idea (it wasn't), but I wouldn't bet much money either way with regard to predicting what damage, if any, occurred to particular parts of the system. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the power supply died a violent death all by itself, and that's that. (Yes, I'm niggling over the "safely say..." part of your post.)

It's unclear to me whether Rat's reference to going "back to the jet engine psu" was a reference to what he had already done, or to something he intended to do, so I don't know how the rest of his system fared.

I'm dying to know! C'm'on, Rat, throw us a bone!

_Q_

Rat · 24th September 2003, 01:51 AM

Yes, sorry; took a little time out. Thanks for input everyone. The machine is fine. Just blew the psu. Yes it's kinda stupid to effectively replace a 5A fuse with a 13A one, but I'd always been told (by many other professionals) that if you don't know if it's the lead or the psu that's gone, try the lead from the kettle, as it's identical. Evidently it isn't, and I didn't think to check first.

The fact is, as far as I'm aware, the 13A fuse was only a problem because the psu was already faulty. I may have exacerbated the problem, but I didn't cause it. I'm not quite that stupid about electricity that I'd have done this intentionally even if electrics is not my strongest suit.

I think now I'll take a screwdriver to the old psu, and...no I'm joking. I've emailed the retailer and they said it should be fine to send it back for replacement. So as soon as I can find some packaging it's going back. I won't say where to in case anyone here works for them.

If there's any more interesting outcome than a straight return, I'll update as necessary.

Cheers again,
Rat.

ImpyTimpy · 28th September 2003, 10:30 PM

Just out of curioisity, what brand power supply was it? Also how long has it been working before it managed to blow up?

Possibly you had a bad PSU or you're using a low quality brand PSU or you're drawing too much power, causing the PSU to eventually blow up.

Rat · 29th September 2003, 05:14 AM

It's a "Q Technology" brand psu. Not a cheap make. I doubt it was too low-powered. I got a 400W pus specifically because I couldn't be bothered to work out how much I needed, but I'm not running any high-powered case mods or anything. Just two HDs, two optical drives, and the normal cards and cpu, etc. Oh yes, and my scanner uses power through the usb cable, but it wasn't on at the time. I suspect a 300-350W pus would have done the job fine.

It ran for about two or three months before it went. As I was out, I don't know if there were any power surges or anything. I think it was just one of those things. PSUs sometimes just fail.

Still not got round to sending it back, because I keep forgetting to steal packing material from work.

If I'm dangerously overloading anything, it's the socket that it's attached to. One socket with a computer, monitor, printer, joystick, and answerphone.

Cheers,
Rat.

19th September 2003, 04:11 PM	#1
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,085	Electricians/Hardware people/moralists please help. So I'm not normally too bad at assembling computers, and indeed most of the PC I now use is put together by me (the case, the floppy and one of the CD drives is original from what I inherited from my (living) parents. But I'm not too good on electrics. My PC is on 24 hours a day. I came home from work yesterday to find it off. After a little fiddling, I found I couldn't turn it back on. The monitor on the same outlet was still working. First thoughts, in order of likelihood, are: fuse, psu, mobo. Other possibilities of course, but these to check first. Have no five amp fuses, and the power cable isn't original, so I don't know if the original power cable was 5 amps. Try the lead from the kettle. Bright flash, smoke, stench. Kettle lead has 13 amp fuse. Now my limited knowledge of electrical things and stuff tells me that the different fuse should not have caused this, and the psu was faulty. Is this correct? I bought the silent psu about 4 months ago to replace the roaring montrosity I had before. Now it's back to the jet engine psu (in the living room). So, my question (eventually) is this: do I send back the psu as faulty? And do I tell them the circumstances under which it failed? That is, could I in any way have caused or quickened its demise? Cheers, Rat.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

19th September 2003, 08:57 PM	#2
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634	Are you saying that your computer's power supply blew out a 13 amp fuse when in normally uses a 5 amp fuse?
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634

19th September 2003, 09:36 PM	#3
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	I've got some translation problems. Kettle? Your computer has a kettle in it?
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

20th September 2003, 02:10 AM	#4
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,519	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin I've got some translation problems. Kettle? Your computer has a kettle in it? It's probably that flat thing just below the coffee cup holder Um, though, if it blew a 13 amp fuse when it should take a 5, um, yeah, something is like way long gone.... Don't plug it in again! Get the power supply fixed.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

20th September 2003, 09:33 AM	#5
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	Do not mock the kettle, shallow ones. It makes our tea. And yes, definitely replace your PSU. You may be lucky and find that no other components are damaged. Good luck getting a warranty replacement, you'll need it.
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	__________________ There is no punchy, conclusive final sentence for this post.

20th September 2003, 07:05 PM	#6
Whomp Thinker Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 185	Send it back ... don't say ANYTHING. Morality? Pshaw! We're talking a new power supply here! Go for it. Whomp!
Whomp Thinker Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 185	__________________ Pssst...tim...over here. Smell that? I think there's a dead whore under the mattress - Fidelio absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. - Carl Sagan "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God." - Albert Einstein

21st September 2003, 08:32 PM	#7
_Q_ Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Big Bend region Posts: 276	You left your computer on, and came back to find it dead. There was already something wrong at that point. If the only thing wrong at that point had been the fuse (let's say the computer was fine, but the fuse pixies came and burned out the fuse by magic), then your substitution of a higher-current fuse wouldn't have caused any problems. It still wouldn't have been wise (the value of the fuse is selected for a reason), but it wouldn't have damaged otherwise healthy equipment. Now, your substitution of a higher-current fuse certainly allowed more spectacular physical damage to occur to the already-damaged unit, as evidenced by the fireworks. As far as warranty replacement is concerned, it seems to me that this only makes a difference if damaged units are repaired on a component level. I'm not in that line of work, but I know that a lot of stuff is inexpensive enough to manufacture that it's not economically viable to diagnose and repair it that way. It wouldn't surprise me to find that your power supply falls in that category. By the way, is it customary there to have the fuse in the cord rather than in the cabinet? Does the power supply have some label on it indicating the appropriate value of fuse to use? _Q_

22nd September 2003, 02:51 AM	#8
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin I've got some translation problems. Kettle? Your computer has a kettle in it? Doesn't everyone's? Unfortunately, I can't find the website where the guy who made the computer above detailed the process.
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

22nd September 2003, 03:27 AM	#9
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by _Q_ By the way, is it customary there to have the fuse in the cord rather than in the cabinet? Yes. All UK electric plugs have integral fuses. Don't yours? Some devices also have secondary internal fuses, in case someone puts in a 13 amp fuse where a 5 amp one is desired...
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

22nd September 2003, 08:24 AM	#10
KillerX Scholar Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 61	If/when you do send the supply back, make sure you put the 5 amp fuse back in, don't send it with the 13 amp or they'll blame the whole thing on you.
KillerX Scholar Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 61

23rd September 2003, 09:47 AM	#11
_Q_ Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Big Bend region Posts: 276	Quote: Originally posted by richardm Yes. All UK electric plugs have integral fuses. Don't yours? Some devices also have secondary internal fuses, in case someone puts in a 13 amp fuse where a 5 amp one is desired... Typically, our cord sets aren't fused. Such cord sets might be available, but I've never personally run across them. If a fuse is required and a detachable cord set is to be used, manufacturers can use a "power entry" assembly to provide for connection of the cord set to the equipment. These assemblies can be had with fuse holders, mains switches, and line filters, if desired. These other features are fairly common on industrial or laboratory equipment, less common on more cost sensitive consumer goods. _Q_

23rd September 2003, 09:54 AM	#12
_Q_ Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Big Bend region Posts: 276	Quote: Originally posted by Leif Roar Doesn't everyone's? Unfortunately, I can't find the website where the guy who made the computer above detailed the process. Try here: http://www.pimprig.com/modules.php?n...ticle&artid=72 _Q_

23rd September 2003, 03:31 PM	#13
ImpyTimpy Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 803	No offense, but stay away from anything electrical in the future. Sticking a 13amp... wait, let me type this again.. 13AMP fuse where a 5AMP fuse was supposed to be is downright idiotic. Sounds like you had a short, the 5amp fuse blew and maybe saved your components. Now you stuck a 13amp fuse (which means a lot more power went through your system before the fuse blew) and I think we can safely say you've screwed most of (or) the entire system completely.
ImpyTimpy Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 803	__________________ "You are a bunch of kook haters and a hate-group. " - the now gone Jedi Knight describing the board's attitude to dangerous and out of this world ideas.

23rd September 2003, 07:23 PM	#14
_Q_ Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Big Bend region Posts: 276	Quote: Originally posted by ImpyTimpy No offense, but stay away from anything electrical in the future. Sticking a 13amp... wait, let me type this again.. 13AMP fuse where a 5AMP fuse was supposed to be is downright idiotic. Sounds like you had a short, the 5amp fuse blew and maybe saved your components. Now you stuck a 13amp fuse (which means a lot more power went through your system before the fuse blew) and I think we can safely say you've screwed most of (or) the entire system completely. ImpyTimpy, I won't defend the fuse substitution as a good idea (it wasn't), but I wouldn't bet much money either way with regard to predicting what damage, if any, occurred to particular parts of the system. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the power supply died a violent death all by itself, and that's that. (Yes, I'm niggling over the "safely say..." part of your post.) It's unclear to me whether Rat's reference to going "back to the jet engine psu" was a reference to what he had already done, or to something he intended to do, so I don't know how the rest of his system fared. I'm dying to know! C'm'on, Rat, throw us a bone! _Q_

24th September 2003, 01:51 AM	#15
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,085	Yes, sorry; took a little time out. Thanks for input everyone. The machine is fine. Just blew the psu. Yes it's kinda stupid to effectively replace a 5A fuse with a 13A one, but I'd always been told (by many other professionals) that if you don't know if it's the lead or the psu that's gone, try the lead from the kettle, as it's identical. Evidently it isn't, and I didn't think to check first. The fact is, as far as I'm aware, the 13A fuse was only a problem because the psu was already faulty. I may have exacerbated the problem, but I didn't cause it. I'm not quite that stupid about electricity that I'd have done this intentionally even if electrics is not my strongest suit. I think now I'll take a screwdriver to the old psu, and...no I'm joking. I've emailed the retailer and they said it should be fine to send it back for replacement. So as soon as I can find some packaging it's going back. I won't say where to in case anyone here works for them. If there's any more interesting outcome than a straight return, I'll update as necessary. Cheers again, Rat.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

28th September 2003, 10:30 PM	#16
ImpyTimpy Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 803	Just out of curioisity, what brand power supply was it? Also how long has it been working before it managed to blow up? Possibly you had a bad PSU or you're using a low quality brand PSU or you're drawing too much power, causing the PSU to eventually blow up.
ImpyTimpy Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 803	__________________ "You are a bunch of kook haters and a hate-group. " - the now gone Jedi Knight describing the board's attitude to dangerous and out of this world ideas.

29th September 2003, 05:14 AM	#17
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 7,085	It's a "Q Technology" brand psu. Not a cheap make. I doubt it was too low-powered. I got a 400W pus specifically because I couldn't be bothered to work out how much I needed, but I'm not running any high-powered case mods or anything. Just two HDs, two optical drives, and the normal cards and cpu, etc. Oh yes, and my scanner uses power through the usb cable, but it wasn't on at the time. I suspect a 300-350W pus would have done the job fine. It ran for about two or three months before it went. As I was out, I don't know if there were any power surges or anything. I think it was just one of those things. PSUs sometimes just fail. Still not got round to sending it back, because I keep forgetting to steal packing material from work. If I'm dangerously overloading anything, it's the socket that it's attached to. One socket with a computer, monitor, printer, joystick, and answerphone. Cheers, Rat.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.