Cameron's latest 'get off your arse' plan.

Undesired Walrus · 8th January 2008, 03:51 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7176823.stm

Quote:

People out of work for more than two years would be forced to do community work to keep their unemployment benefit, according to plans outlined by the Conservatives.
The long-term unemployed would have to take part in a 12-month programme involving "valuable improvement and amenity work in the areas where they live".

Sounds like an interesting idea. Could work I suppose, may need to see some data. The only problem is, injecting some personal experience into the equation, that a lot of the people who currently work in the homeless sector used to use their services when they themselves were homeless, only to volunteer for a few years and then become a valuable member of the caseworker team. Presumably these community jobs could eat into experience gained in the field they will later get a good job in.

And all this said, 'community work' is starting to sound an awful lot like 'community service'.

On the Tory Stinkometer: 4.5/10

Puppycow · 8th January 2008, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7176823.stm

Sounds like an interesting idea. Could work I suppose, may need to see some data. The only problem is, injecting some personal experience into the equation, that a lot of the people who currently work in the homeless sector used to use their services when they themselves were homeless, only to volunteer for a few years and then become a valuable member of the caseworker team. Presumably these community jobs could eat into experience gained in the field they will later get a good job in.

And all this said, 'community work' is starting to sound an awful lot like 'community service'.

On the Tory Stinkometer: 4.5/10

I'm not sure that is a "problem." Are you saying that gaining experience for a later career is bad? I do think it's important for people to do something constructive for the community, if only to give them a sense of pride and some accomplishment, as well as probably being good for their mental health.

Francesca R · 9th January 2008, 05:27 AM

Quote:

The proposals are mainly aimed at the 68,000 on Jobseekers' Allowance for more than two years and the 16,000 on the benefit for more than five years. Story

I had no idea that was so low actually. That's 0.11% of the population on jobseekers' allowance for more than 2 years. So, perhaps this is . . . headline grabbing?

Undesired Walrus · 9th January 2008, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I'm not sure that is a "problem." Are you saying that gaining experience for a later career is bad? I do think it's important for people to do something constructive for the community, if only to give them a sense of pride and some accomplishment, as well as probably being good for their mental health.

I don't think you understand me. As it stands now, a lot of the homeless on JA gain experience for a few years by being a volunteer at the charity that they once used the services of. They later, because of the experience, gain a job there.

If we have these community jobs, cleaning, graffiti, etc, then they will eat into the time that they would be using for being an unpaid volunteer.

Puppycow · 9th January 2008, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

I don't think you understand me. As it stands now, a lot of the homeless on JA gain experience for a few years by being a volunteer at the charity that they once used the services of. They later, because of the experience, gain a job there.

If we have these community jobs, cleaning, graffiti, etc, then they will eat into the time that they would be using for being an unpaid volunteer.

I see. But now you are describing somone on the dole as "unpaid"?

And I suppose I might add, someone compelled to work as a "volunteer."

JonWhite · 9th January 2008, 09:27 AM

Unless worthwhile, saleable skills are taught then it'll just be no more than exploitation and punishment.

Forced into gaining some laughable, career enhancing experience of painting a community wall just so as to continue receiving their paltry benefits? Work is work. Shouldn't they at the least then get minimum wage?

Sounds like just another political sop to The Daily Mail.

sinclairmcevoy · 9th January 2008, 09:45 AM

I don't know about the U.K, but from what I see here in Canada, a lot of people on welfare just don't want to work. Welfare Wednesday is known as Mardi Gras. The bars are packed on those days. I've met a few, and they will bitch about how they can barely get by after they pay the rent. The government just doesn't give me enough money. Getting a job is out of the question as it would not work with their schedule. Who wants to work when you get paid not to?

E.J.Armstrong · 9th January 2008, 11:38 AM

Same old, same old.

The Tories ignoring the wood for the trees.

Cameron might have some credibaility if he employed fewer old Etonians and stopped allowing his shadow cabinet to defraud the country of a full time salaray while moonshining in other jobs.

One full time MP's salary for one full time job.

fagin · 10th January 2008, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

I don't think you understand me. As it stands now, a lot of the homeless on JA gain experience for a few years by being a volunteer at the charity that they once used the services of. They later, because of the experience, gain a job there.

If we have these community jobs, cleaning, graffiti, etc, then they will eat into the time that they would be using for being an unpaid volunteer.

Seriously, how many layabouts on welfare actually do charity work?

JonWhite · 10th January 2008, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by fagin

Seriously, how many layabouts on welfare actually do charity work?

Prince Charles, Queenie, Prince Andrew, Camilla Horseface and the Duke of Edinburgh for starters...

Undesired Walrus · 10th January 2008, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by fagin

Seriously, how many layabouts on welfare actually do charity work?

More than you think tarquin.

I recently worked in an office of eight people. Three of those were volunteers who used to use the services, and two were caseworkers who went from years of homelessness to two years of voluntary work, to where they are now.

Praktik · 10th January 2008, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy

I don't know about the U.K, but from what I see here in Canada, a lot of people on welfare just don't want to work. Welfare Wednesday is known as Mardi Gras. The bars are packed on those days. I've met a few, and they will bitch about how they can barely get by after they pay the rent. The government just doesn't give me enough money. Getting a job is out of the question as it would not work with their schedule. Who wants to work when you get paid not to?

I also live in Canada, and this is nonsense.

8th January 2008, 03:51 PM	#1
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	Cameron's latest 'get off your arse' plan. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7176823.stm Quote: People out of work for more than two years would be forced to do community work to keep their unemployment benefit, according to plans outlined by the Conservatives. The long-term unemployed would have to take part in a 12-month programme involving "valuable improvement and amenity work in the areas where they live". Sounds like an interesting idea. Could work I suppose, may need to see some data. The only problem is, injecting some personal experience into the equation, that a lot of the people who currently work in the homeless sector used to use their services when they themselves were homeless, only to volunteer for a few years and then become a valuable member of the caseworker team. Presumably these community jobs could eat into experience gained in the field they will later get a good job in. And all this said, 'community work' is starting to sound an awful lot like 'community service'. On the Tory Stinkometer: 4.5/10
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

8th January 2008, 11:44 PM	#2
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,757	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7176823.stm Sounds like an interesting idea. Could work I suppose, may need to see some data. The only problem is, injecting some personal experience into the equation, that a lot of the people who currently work in the homeless sector used to use their services when they themselves were homeless, only to volunteer for a few years and then become a valuable member of the caseworker team. Presumably these community jobs could eat into experience gained in the field they will later get a good job in. And all this said, 'community work' is starting to sound an awful lot like 'community service'. On the Tory Stinkometer: 4.5/10 I'm not sure that is a "problem." Are you saying that gaining experience for a later career is bad? I do think it's important for people to do something constructive for the community, if only to give them a sense of pride and some accomplishment, as well as probably being good for their mental health.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

9th January 2008, 05:47 AM	#4
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	Originally Posted by Puppycow I'm not sure that is a "problem." Are you saying that gaining experience for a later career is bad? I do think it's important for people to do something constructive for the community, if only to give them a sense of pride and some accomplishment, as well as probably being good for their mental health. I don't think you understand me. As it stands now, a lot of the homeless on JA gain experience for a few years by being a volunteer at the charity that they once used the services of. They later, because of the experience, gain a job there. If we have these community jobs, cleaning, graffiti, etc, then they will eat into the time that they would be using for being an unpaid volunteer.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

9th January 2008, 07:12 AM	#5
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,757	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus I don't think you understand me. As it stands now, a lot of the homeless on JA gain experience for a few years by being a volunteer at the charity that they once used the services of. They later, because of the experience, gain a job there. If we have these community jobs, cleaning, graffiti, etc, then they will eat into the time that they would be using for being an unpaid volunteer. I see. But now you are describing somone on the dole as "unpaid"? And I suppose I might add, someone compelled to work as a "volunteer."
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22 Last edited by Puppycow; 9th January 2008 at 07:16 AM.

9th January 2008, 09:27 AM	#6
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 644	Unless worthwhile, saleable skills are taught then it'll just be no more than exploitation and punishment. Forced into gaining some laughable, career enhancing experience of painting a community wall just so as to continue receiving their paltry benefits? Work is work. Shouldn't they at the least then get minimum wage? Sounds like just another political sop to The Daily Mail.
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland

9th January 2008, 05:27 AM	#3
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Quote: The proposals are mainly aimed at the 68,000 on Jobseekers' Allowance for more than two years and the 16,000 on the benefit for more than five years. Story I had no idea that was so low actually. That's 0.11% of the population on jobseekers' allowance for more than 2 years. So, perhaps this is . . . headline grabbing?

9th January 2008, 09:45 AM	#7
sinclairmcevoy Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 8,027	I don't know about the U.K, but from what I see here in Canada, a lot of people on welfare just don't want to work. Welfare Wednesday is known as Mardi Gras. The bars are packed on those days. I've met a few, and they will bitch about how they can barely get by after they pay the rent. The government just doesn't give me enough money. Getting a job is out of the question as it would not work with their schedule. Who wants to work when you get paid not to?
	__________________ Don't argue with me. Don't you know who I think I am?

9th January 2008, 11:38 AM	#8
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	Same old, same old. The Tories ignoring the wood for the trees. Cameron might have some credibaility if he employed fewer old Etonians and stopped allowing his shadow cabinet to defraud the country of a full time salaray while moonshining in other jobs. One full time MP's salary for one full time job.
	__________________ “Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy. Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza

10th January 2008, 07:07 AM	#9
fagin Muse Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 902	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus I don't think you understand me. As it stands now, a lot of the homeless on JA gain experience for a few years by being a volunteer at the charity that they once used the services of. They later, because of the experience, gain a job there. If we have these community jobs, cleaning, graffiti, etc, then they will eat into the time that they would be using for being an unpaid volunteer. Seriously, how many layabouts on welfare actually do charity work?
fagin Muse Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 902	__________________ Reverend of the Universal Life Church

10th January 2008, 08:51 AM	#10
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 644	Originally Posted by fagin Seriously, how many layabouts on welfare actually do charity work? Prince Charles, Queenie, Prince Andrew, Camilla Horseface and the Duke of Edinburgh for starters...
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland Last edited by JonWhite; 10th January 2008 at 08:53 AM.

10th January 2008, 09:22 AM	#11
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	Originally Posted by fagin Seriously, how many layabouts on welfare actually do charity work? More than you think tarquin. I recently worked in an office of eight people. Three of those were volunteers who used to use the services, and two were caseworkers who went from years of homelessness to two years of voluntary work, to where they are now.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 10th January 2008 at 09:24 AM.

10th January 2008, 09:43 AM	#12
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,244	Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy I don't know about the U.K, but from what I see here in Canada, a lot of people on welfare just don't want to work. Welfare Wednesday is known as Mardi Gras. The bars are packed on those days. I've met a few, and they will bitch about how they can barely get by after they pay the rent. The government just doesn't give me enough money. Getting a job is out of the question as it would not work with their schedule. Who wants to work when you get paid not to? I also live in Canada, and this is nonsense.