The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[DOC]

This PHD, astrophysicist, says the odds of all the bible prophecy that has been fulfilled occurring by chance is 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000...
I'll stop there but the 1 should be followed by 2000 zeros

from the article "Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the reliability of the Bible: by Dr. Hugh Ross.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...prophecy.shtml

[Ryokan]

Really? Could you.....

1. Show us the math?

2. Tell us some of these fulfilled prophesies?

[quixotecoyote]

Ahh, the old 'numbers out his ass approach' ... impressive.

Tends to get easier when you can retrospectively determine what the prophecies actually said in order to fit them to events. Even then there's a bunch they just missed, Egypt is still habitable, for example.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Really? Could you.....

1. Show us the math?

2. Tell us some of these fulfilled prophesies?

Well here are 3 out of the 13 he listed. He also said about 2000 out of 2500 have been fulfilled so far.

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.)

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...prophecy.shtml

[skeptical]

Originally Posted by DOC

This PHD, astrophysicist, says the odds of all the bible prophecy that has been fulfilled occurring by chance is 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000...
I'll stop there but the 1 should be followed by 2000 zeros

from the article "Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the reliability of the Bible: by Dr. Hugh Ross.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...prophecy.shtml

Wow, an argument from authority, I haven't seen that in at least 10 minutes. Well gollie gee willkers, if he has PhD, he MUST know what he is talking about.

Can you name a single prophecy that meets the following criteria:

1) Specific as to person(s) name or date or place AND that detailed a specific event (not just some general fire and brimstone, but specific acts that were to take place) i.e. a crazed preacher will storm harpers ferry, two airplanes will hit large building in the new world commandeered by infidels, etc. (you get the idea)

2) The prophecy was unequivocally made BEFORE the supposed events occurred

3) The events were reliably recorded outside the Bible, for verification purposes?

4) The events were not part of an deliberate effort on the part of those involved to make the prophecy come true? (i.e. the Jews rebuilding the temple)


I'm not aware of any, but post your evidence and I'll look. (please note that all supposed prophecies about Jesus fail one or more of these criteria, as do most prophecies in the OT because they are too vague or cannot be reliably dated)

ETA: just saw your other post, will evaluate and respond

[lionking]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Ahh, the old 'numbers out his ass approach' ... impressive.

Tends to get easier when you can retrospectively determine what the prophecies actually said in order to fit them to events. Even then there's a bunch they just missed, Egypt is still habitable, for example.

Exactly. Even Nostradamus gets a good hit rate when some of his predictions are favourably interpreted after the event, but I didn't see anything about "Nostradamus predicts 9/11" before the event. And only one false prediction would make the "infallible" bible rather less so....

[DOC]

Originally Posted by lionking

Exactly. Even Nostradamus gets a good hit rate when some of his predictions are favourably interpreted after the event, but I didn't see anything about "Nostradamus predicts 9/11" before the event. And only one false prediction would make the "infallible" bible rather less so....

Actually Dr. Ross does state that God is not the only one who uses prophecy:

from the "Fulfilled Prophecy" article mentioned earlier:

"God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance."

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...prophecy.shtml

[skeptical]

Originally Posted by DOC

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)

Sorry, this doesn't count. There is no independent evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. By independent, I mean extra biblical. Since neither the author of Mark nor Paul, the earliest chroniclers, reports the birthplace of Jesus, it is just as likely, if not more likely, that the later stories were made to conform to the prediction.

Originally Posted by DOC

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

Sorry, this also doesn't count. Same argument as above.

This argument basically amounts to saying "if you believe everything written in the Bible, its AMAZING the prophecies that it has!" Well, that's a very mountainous "if". You have to first show that the stories relating to Jesus are historically reliable, which has not and likely never will be done absent an archeological find of epic proportions.

This is just typical apologist two-step.

[joobz]

There's a 1 in Pi chance that those numbers are completely made up.

[DOC]

Here is a site that lists 60 of the prophecies that have been fulfilled:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...61bccbd43f70aa

[skeptical]

Originally Posted by DOC

Here is a site that lists 60 of the prophecies that have been fulfilled:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...61bccbd43f70aa

No point in reading this is its similar to what you've already posted. I can write a prophecy today, and write something next week to say its fulfilled. Without corroboration from another source, why would anyone think that counts as a fulfilled prophecy?

You have to first have good evidence that the prophecy was fulfilled, and the NT stories just don't cut it as historically reliable.

[joobz]

I see:
Bible makes prediction
Bible says prediction was fullfilled
No outside source exists verifying the fullfillment of prediction.

This happens a bunch of times in the bible.

So Jesus is the son of god?

There's a lot of predictions made in the Lord of the Rings that came true in the Lord of the Rings, Does that make the Lord of the Rings real?

[hgc]

Originally Posted by DOC

Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy.

Jean Dixon couldn't do better than 60%?!? Oh God! What next?!?

[DOC]

Originally Posted by skeptical

Sorry, this doesn't count. There is no independent evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. By independent, I mean extra biblical. Since neither the author of Mark nor Paul, the earliest chroniclers, reports the birthplace of Jesus, it is just as likely, if not more likely, that the later stories were made to conform to the prediction.

Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian and was highly detailed about events and places, wrote the reason that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was because Caesar Augustus sent out a decree that the world should be taxed. And since Joseph was from the house of David, which was from Bethlehem. Joseph and his family went to Bethlehem.

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

[quixotecoyote]

Originally Posted by DOC

Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian and was highly detailed about events and places, wrote the reason that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was because Caesar Augustus sent out a decree that the world should be taxed. And since Joseph was from the house of David, which was from Bethlehem. Joseph and his family went to Bethlehem.

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

Funny you'd bring up that census since such an event had never happened that way before in roman history and there is no extra-biblical record of it ever happening at all...

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally Posted by DOC

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.)

Well, here is the passage from Zechariah ...

Zechariah 11 (NRSV)
12 I then said to them, “If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” So they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver.
13 Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it into the treasury” —this lordly price at which I was valued by them. So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them into the treasury in the house of the Lord.

It doesn't even sound like a prophecy. But I think that this verse is nontheless where the NT "thirty pieces of silver" tidbit comes from. It is only that apologists have it backwards.

Probability of fulfilled prophecy: 0

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by DOC

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

And if the bible were the inerrant word of god then he'd have told all the authors to write the same thing. So the fact that there are any inconsistencies shows that either god wasn't involved, or god is unable to communicate well with his subordinates, or god just can't keep his stories straight.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Funny you'd bring up that census since such an event had never happened that way before in roman history and there is no extra-biblical record of it ever happening at all...

Not to mention how incredibly stupid it would be to require all those people to travel to the place of their birth to take a census. "Hey, let's make everybody in the Empire travel by foot and donkey back to where they were born to take a census. That way we'll know where they were born and we can use the census numbers to make plans that ignore where they live now. Really, it'll be lots of fun for them and think of the disruption it'll cause in everyone's lives".

[Hokulele]

Dr. Hugh Ross' "biblical predictions" as they apply to science are shredded by PZ Myers here.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...scientific.php

[joobz]

Originally Posted by DOC

Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian

Who says this? THomas Arnold?

Originally Posted by DOC

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

the bible is true because it's self contradictory? Wow, that one is new to me.

Originally Posted by DOC

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

Why would it be the same person?

Like it was mentioned in another thread. You would agree that George washington was a great man, who did many great things...

But does that mean the story of the cherry tree is true?

[DOC]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Funny you'd bring up that census since such an event had never happened that way before in roman history and there is no extra-biblical record of it ever happening at all...

Do you have a source for this. And actually Luke said it was a decree for taxation.

[quixotecoyote]

Can I show evidence that no records exist anywhere? Do you even understand the logic error there, DOC?

Well, I could appeal to authority, as you are wont to do, but that would be pointless. You'd just refuse to believe them.

Instead, show me a roman record of a census requiring all residents to return to their place of birth. You can't because it doesn't exist.

Instead, show me a historical record verifying this census. You can't because it doesn't exist.

You claim it does exist. Support your claim.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

Not to mention how incredibly stupid it would be to require all those people to travel to the place of their birth to take a census. "Hey, let's make everybody in the Empire travel by foot and donkey back to where they were born to take a census. That way we'll know where they were born and we can use the census numbers to make plans that ignore where they live now. Really, it'll be lots of fun for them and think of the disruption it'll cause in everyone's lives".

It's even more stupid than that. It wasn't back to where they were born. Joseph and Mary had to go, according to the bible, to enter the census in Betlehem because that's where David, Joseph's ancestor, was born.

So, Caesar Augustus, according to the bible, decreed that everyone should be entered into the census not where they lived, not where they were born, but at the birthplace of their greatest ancestral hero. I bet there was much confusion throughout the empire that year.

Anyone who doesn't question this story must be a complete git.

[-Fran-]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Ahh, the old 'numbers out his ass approach' ... impressive.

Who would have thought so many zeroes could fit up an ass

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Funny you'd bring up that census since such an event had never happened that way before in roman history and there is no extra-biblical record of it ever happening at all...

Well, actually... Caesar Augustus was known for initiating an empire wide census. It's mentioned here, for example. Can't be bothered to find a non-Wikipedia link.

But I really doubt it was done the way the bible mentions. Why would the Romans even care a tiny bit where David, Joseph's ancestor, was born?

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian...

Originally Posted by joobz

Who says this? THomas Arnold?

I'm not sure if the famous Oxford historian, Thomas Arnold, who wrote the 3 volume "History of Rome" said that about Luke, but in case anyone didn't read this in the forum he did say this:

Quote by Thomas Arnold:

"Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through [the evidence for the resurrection] piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

Source: Thomas Arnold, as cited in Wilbur Smith's "Therefore Stand" (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1945), 425-26

[quixotecoyote]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Well, actually... Caesar Augustus was known for initiating an empire wide census. It's mentioned here, for example. Can't be bothered to find a non-Wikipedia link.

But I really doubt it was done the way the bible mentions. Why would the Romans even care a tiny bit where David, Joseph's ancestor, was born?

Yes, I believe I specified that the way it was done was important:

Quote:

Funny you'd bring up that census since such an event had never happened that way before in roman history and there is no extra-biblical record of it ever happening at all...

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

It's even more stupid than that. It wasn't back to where they were born. Joseph and Mary had to go, according to the bible, to enter the census in Betlehem because that's where David, Joseph's ancestor, was born.

So, Caesar Augustus, according to the bible, decreed that everyone should be entered into the census not where they lived, not where they were born, but at the birthplace of their greatest ancestral hero. I bet there was much confusion throughout the empire that year.

Anyone who doesn't question this story must be a complete git.

Do you have any sources. It seems this is all speculation, although it is your right to speculate.

[Hokulele]

Please provide a concise list of the evidence Arnold found so compelling. Just his statement alone is worth nothing.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Yes, I believe I specified that the way it was done was important:

Yes, I see that now. Sorry.

Originally Posted by DOC

Do you have any sources. It seems this is all speculation, although it is your right to speculate.

Source for what? That Joseph had to go to the city of David for the census? It's Luke 2:1-4.

Luke 2:4 - So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family line of David.

What speculation are you talking about?

[Hawk one]

The Flying Spagetti Monster's Journal, chapter 23, verse 4-5:
And the Noodly Appendages Touched Me and the Flying Spagetti Monster told me "Ye of little faith but much rational thinking instead, go forth and make a song about the Troll that just won't stop lying."
And the Flying Spagetti Monster promised me a nice pizza for the trouble, and after negotating a gelano dessert, I accepted the humble task.

Lies For Jesus
(Mel: Moonlight Shadow)

Every time that ever we saw him
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
Every time, he'd show up as a warning
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus

Losing the arguments every night
Far away on the other side
He would hope that the heathens would see the light
But he couldn't find how to push through

As the fundie whispers in the evening
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
He will cause annoyance and grieving
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus

All he saw was a silhouette of a cross
Far away on the other side
And he failed to imagine that his "arguments" lost
But he couldn't find how to push through

But he'll stay
And he'll pray
That we'll all believe him, some day
He stays
We "pray"
That he may turn honest one day

As he posts until it's early morning
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
With his lies, repetitive and boring
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus

And we asked him to prove himself every night
Far away on the other side
But his evidence was never even slightest in sight
And he couldn't find how to push through

But he'll stay
And he'll pray
That we'll all believe him, some day
He stays
We "pray"
That he may turn honest one day

[two guitar solos, fade out]

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Please provide a concise list of the evidence Arnold found so compelling. Just his statement alone is worth nothing.

Remember he said the above about 1840 when there were hardly any atheists. I'm not sure he took the time to write it out. Remember he was extremely busy writing the 3 volume "History of Rome" which he never did finish because he died of a heart attack. He was a historian not an apologist.

Its kind of like when Einstein said "without Isaac Newton's work my work would have been impossible" I'm not sure Einstein ever actually gave a concise list of what Newton's work he was talking about.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Yes, I see that now. Sorry.



Source for what? That Joseph had to go to the city of David for the census? It's Luke 2:1-4.

Luke 2:4 - So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family line of David.

What speculation are you talking about?

The speculation or opinion that you have to be stupid to believe that the rulers of the day would send you to the city of your lineage for a census or taxation.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by DOC

The speculation or opinion that you have to be stupid to believe that the rulers of the day would send you to the city of your lineage for a census or taxation.

Well, do you believe that happened? Everyone and their uncle throughout the Roman Empire was ordered to the birthplace of their most famous ancestor? I mean, come one. There was, what, 26 generations from David to Joseph? Joseph was lucky to have such a famous ancestor, how did everyone else know where to go?

I mean, if your country ever held such a census, what city would you go to?

An empire wide census was a breath taking thing to do under any circumstance. If this was how Caesar Augustus held his census, I'm sure all the local pundits all over the empire would write about it.

[Kopji]

Surely it must have occurred to an honest person that what they are doing is shooting a bunch of arrows at a blank wall, and then drawing a bullseye where they hit.

[Abe_the_Man]

Originally Posted by DOC

Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian and was highly detailed about events and places, wrote the reason that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was because Caesar Augustus sent out a decree that the world should be taxed. And since Joseph was from the house of David, which was from Bethlehem. Joseph and his family went to Bethlehem.

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

Oh my. The last thing you should have brought up was the census.

*All biblical citations are from the New International Version at www.biblegateway.com
**Sources will be linked to at the end of this post

Quote:

Luke 2:1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.
2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.)
3And everyone went to his own town to register.
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.

Let’s break this down into its main claims:

1. Ceasar Augustus declared that ALL of the roman world should be counted
2. This is the first Census while Quirinius was governor of Syria
3. Everyone was required to go to "his town" to register. Joseph is of the House of David and therefore required to go to Bethlehem as it is the home of David. This indicates the census was conducted based on Jewish tribal affiliation.
4. Joseph is from Galilee

Now let’s look at the actual facts:

------------------------

1. At no time did Ceasar Augustus declare that the entire Roman empire should be counted. Augustus came into power on January 16, 27 BC and reigned for forty years dying on August 19, AD 14. Three Census' were performed at his command during his reign and counted Roman citizens only.

* In 28 BC the citizen population was 4,063,000 (including both men and women)
* In 8 BC - 4,233,000
* In AD 14 - 4,937,000

The population at around 4,000,000 seems very small but estimates put the world population that time at somewhere over 200,000,000 putting Romans at about 2-3% of the world population.

-----------------------------

2. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed governer of Syria in 6 AD and performed a census of the new Roman provinces of Syria and Iudaea for the purpose of taxation in 6/7 AD. Iudaea province was formed in 6 AD by combining Judea with Samaria and Idumea. It did not include the surrounding separate provinces of Galilee, Gaulanitis (the Golan), Peraea or the Decapolis. The capital was at Caesarea.

So now we see some more problems. Though the bible is correct in naming Quirinius as governor of Syria. He did perform a census it was not covering the entire Roman Empire as the bible claims. It covered only the provinces of Syria and Iudaea. It did NOT include the province of Galilee where Joseph and Mary came from and so not only were they exempt from taking part in the census they would not have been permitted to take part even if they wanted to (that would be like me as a Canadian trying to take part in a New York city Census).

2a. This claim comes with a bonus debunking as well! We know that Quirinius became governor in 6 AD. Well remember Herod the Great? He is the one who killed all the babies after Jesus was born (which was during the census)

Quote:

Mathew 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Well… He died in 4 BC. A full 10 years BEFORE the census during which Jesus was supposed to be born. Isn’t history great?

--------------------------------

3. It states that “And everyone went to his own town to register”. And that Joseph had to go to Bethlehem as he was from the House of David (notice it does NOT say it was his home town or his father’s home town). As stated above this indicates the census was conducted based on Jewish tribal affiliation. Roman Census’ were not conducted based on local custom but the entire local taxable population. The census was actually conducted for the purpose of properly levying and enforcing taxes.

Also there are 12 tribes of Israel. That means if everyone had to return to the town his tribe originated from then the ENTIRE population of Israel would abandon most of the towns and return en masse to a total of 12 locations. This would not only be ruinous to the abandoned towns but also to the ones where everyone went. No census could possibly be conducted in such a fashion.

--------------------------------

4. Was Joseph from Galilee? There is no extrabiblical evidence for it but ALL of the gospels agree that is where he was from. As already stated above Galilee was not included in the census. Joseph would not have taken part.

---------------------------------

So not only is no prophecy fulfilled, your book is shown to be very inaccurate historically and impossible from a social/economic stand point. I look forward to your rebuttal and hope that you provide some compelling information rather than made up numbers and a made up book. Everyone please feel free to comment, let me know if I have missed anything or left anything else out.

Source Links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iudaea_Province
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Ceasar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
http://www.unrv.com/empire/roman-population.php
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4;&version=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6;&version=31;

[zooterkin]

Oops; since DOC's link says the following, you've just destroyed the credibility of the whole bible:

Quote:

The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.

[SomeGuy]

Originally Posted by DOC

Remember he said the above about 1840 when there were hardly any atheists. I'm not sure he took the time to write it out. Remember he was extremely busy writing the 3 volume "History of Rome" which he never did finish because he died of a heart attack. He was a historian not an apologist.

Its kind of like when Einstein said "without Isaac Newton's work my work would have been impossible" I'm not sure Einstein ever actually gave a concise list of what Newton's work he was talking about.

Dear Doc:

Here is the analytical proof for Newton's laws of force:

http://www.iit.edu/~smile/guests/Newton98B3.pdf

Could you now please provide the evidence that Thomas Arnold supposedly had.

[Abe_the_Man]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Oops; since DOC's link says the following, you've just destroyed the credibility of the whole bible:

Really? Well shucks.... Sorry about that.

[Abe_the_Man]

Originally Posted by SomeGuy

Dear Doc:

Here is the analytical proof for Newton's laws of force:

http://www.iit.edu/~smile/guests/Newton98B3.pdf

Could you now please provide the evidence that Thomas Arnold supposedly had.

I'll get this one Doc;

www.biblegateway.com

mmmmmmmmmmmmm that's good scripture!