The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Wildy

I don't get it, a prophecy that didn't come true came true because of a different interpretation of what was said?

My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.

[Rincewind]

Originally Posted by Wildy

I don't get it, a prophecy that didn't come true came true because of a different interpretation of what was said?

And apparently proves that other prophecies were fulfilled?

[joobz]

Originally Posted by DOC

My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.

That's one interpretation. Another is that it is another failed prophecy in a long list of failed biblical prophecies.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by joobz

That's one interpretation. Another is that it is another failed prophecy in a long list of failed biblical prophecies.

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

[joobz]

Originally Posted by DOC

What about post #10 ?

what about it? Are you suggesting that we haven't discussed that list and found it lacking?

Such an insinuation would be highly dishonest.


ETA:
DOC,
I see you have changed your post.

That is fine. Please note that you are repeating information that has already been discussed. Your revision of your post gives the impression that this is new ground, which is completely not true.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by DOC

What about post #10 ?

What about all the posts since post 10?

[X]

Originally Posted by DOC

What about post #10 ?

Originally Posted by joobz

what about it? Are you suggesting that we haven't discussed that list and found it lacking?

Such an insinuation would be highly dishonest.

Originally Posted by zooterkin

What about all the posts since post 10?

For anyone confused: DOC re-wrote the post after it was quoted. Actually, he re-wrote it at the same time Joobz and zooterkin we quoting it. Post number 10 provides the same link as the re-written post.

So, unlike other occasions where DOC altered the meaning intentionally, this time the revision cannot be held against him because a) the meaning was not changed, and b) he likely didn't see the replies.

Post 10 is quoted below:

Originally Posted by DOC

Here is a site that lists 60 of the prophecies that have been fulfilled:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...61bccbd43f70aa

[carlitos]

It's worth noting that, much like DOC's google books links, the google groups link doesn't work for everyone either.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

You appear to be back to "the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true..."

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by DOC

My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.

I would say "repent or die" is not a free will decision. That would be akin to me robbing you at gunpoint and then saying that you freely decided to give me your valuables.

Besides the prophecy not coming true is by definition the prophecy failing.

Originally Posted by Rincewind

And apparently proves that other prophecies were fulfilled?

Yep. Somehow.

[joobz]

I can say, based upon the evidence, that DOC has failed miserably at convincing anyone that a single biblical prophecy vame true.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by DOC

My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.

A man swallowed by a big fish, and surviving in its belly for three days. An ancient city three days' journey in diameter. Its king commands the people to make their goats and sheep wear sackcloth. Do you really believe any of this?

Evidently you do! And you have cause to think that most Christians also believe it to be factually true. How can such fatuity be so widespread in the mightiest country the world has ever seen, whose military power bestrides the globe, and whose scholars design machines that have explored every planet in the solar system?

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Craig B

How can such fatuity be so widespread in the mightiest country the world has ever seen, whose military power bestrides the globe, and whose scholars design machines that have explored every planet in the solar system?

Thankfully it is on the decline. That's a trend I hope to see continue, hopefully world wide.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

No.

[pakeha]

^^^
Me neither.

Originally Posted by DOC

My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.

So Jesus not fulfilling the 'three days and three nights' prophecy was because...?

[joobz]

Reupdated Our Poll to include DOC's New question.

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 13
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:6
zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo
dafydd

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0


ETA: Added a name....

[carlitos]

So you aren't willing to join Google Lists to read about biblical prophecy?
No.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by pakeha

^^^
Me neither.



So Jesus not fulfilling the 'three days and three nights' prophecy was because...?

God changed his mind again. That's Doc's explanation for all the failed prophecies.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by joobz

Reupdated Our Poll to include DOC's New question.

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 13
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:5
zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0

A resounding no from me.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by dafydd

A resounding no from me.

Added!

[Lucian]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

Absolutely not, no, but I'd like to congratulate you for composing a "So" post that does accurately summarize your interlocutors' views.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

No.

Joobz, please add me to the list.

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by ddt

No.

Joobz, please add me to the list.

Me too please Joobz.

[Agatha]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

Well I suppose I should give you credit for posting a link which is accessible outside the US, it saves me from reminding you that the US is less than 5% of the world's population.

No, I don't believe any of those prophecies "came true" if by "came true" you mean they were prophesied prior to the event, and have extra-biblical proof of occurrence. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that your meaning of "came true" is somewhat different.

The bible is not proof of anything; it's a collection of stories which were written after the fact, and it has been altered and edited several times until it ended up as the 66 books we have today, in several different versions. You cannot point to it as evidence of anything which it contains, this is circular reasoning. You'll have studied circular reasoning in that logic course you claim to have taken.

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by Agatha

Well I suppose I should give you credit for posting a link which is accessible outside the US, it saves me from reminding you that the US is less than 5% of the world's population.

No, I don't believe any of those prophecies "came true" if by "came true" you mean they were prophesied prior to the event, and have extra-biblical proof of occurrence. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that your meaning of "came true" is somewhat different.

The bible is not proof of anything; it's a collection of stories which were written after the fact, and it has been altered and edited several times until it ended up as the 66 books we have today, in several different versions. You cannot point to it as evidence of anything which it contains, this is circular reasoning. You'll have studied circular reasoning in that logic course you claim to have taken.

In all fairness to DOC,
Just one module (that he aced) of a philosophy course he's taken.

[Elizabeth I]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

No.

Originally Posted by pakeha

^^^
Me neither.

I think it's been fairly well established that, except for one person, nobody participating in this thread thinks that "any of these came true."

(Add me to the second list of "no"s)

[TimCallahan]

DOC, if you see the Book of Jonah as being historical, do you accept the following as true?

1) Jonah was swallowed by a great fish, in which he lived for three days.

2) Nineveh was so large it took three days to cross it.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

I think it's been fairly well established that, except for one person, nobody participating in this thread thinks that "any of these came true."

(Add me to the second list of "no"s)

And me too, please.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

Absolutely not.

Quote:

Concerning His birth:
Prophesied---Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman- Gen 3:15, Gal 4:4

Um, what other way is there to go about that business? I have two of my own and have found a woman to be a requisite part of the equation.

Quote:

2. Born of a virgin- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:18-25

Mary got up the duff by means of the holy spook.

Quote:

3. Seed of Abraham- Gen 22:18, Mt 1:1

Yet somehow was born of the line of Abraham.

Quote:

4. Seed of Isaac- Gen 21:12, Lk 3:23+34

And Isaac.

Quote:

5. Seed of Jacob- Num 24:17, Lk 3:34

And Jacob.

Quote:

6. Seed of David- Jer 23:5, Lk 3:31

And David

Quote:

7. Tribe of Judah- Gen 49:10, Rev 5:5

And Judah.

Quote:

8. Family line of Jesse- Isa 11:1, Lk 3:32

And Jesse.

Quote:

9. Born in Bethlehem- Mic 5:2, Mt 2:1-6

Conveniently.

Quote:

10. Herod kills the children- Jer 31:15,

For no particular reason.

See, here's your problem. If you are going to trace your genealogy all the way back through Joseph to David, then Joe boy must be the father.

But if you are going with the Holy Spook, then Joe boy is not the father at all, so you cannot claim the genealogy.

Not to mention the given genealogies don't even match.

So your choice is this, Holy Spook, therefore not descended from David, or born out of wedlock (there is a word for that). Pick one.

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

...

2) Nineveh was so large it took three days to cross it.

I used to have a car like that.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

I used to have a car like that.

Your car was so large it took three days to cross it? Must have been a "full-size" Chrysler.

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by Craig B

Your car was so large it took three days to cross it? Must have been a "full-size" Chrysler.

It's the punchline to an old joke.

Quote:

A potato farmer from Maine was visiting Dallas, and met a Texas rancher. The Texan asked him, "How much land do you have?"

"Well", said the farmer, "I plant about 70 acres every spring."

"That's all?", said the Texan, "On my ranch, I can drive all day and not see the far fence."

"Ayup," replied the farmer, "I used to have a car like that."

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by dafydd

God changed his mind again. That's Doc's explanation for all the failed prophecies.

It's so simple to explain away, once you know how!

[catsmate1]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

No. Have you any evidence that any of them came true? Outside your babble that is.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by pakeha

It's so simple to explain away, once you know how!

I don't know how "simple" it is for an omniscient being to change his mind. Why would he do it? Because he has obtained new information? Because he realises he made a mistake? In fact I can't imagine how an omnipresent, omniscient entity can make any changes of state at all. He can't move from place to place (he's everywhere) or learn anything (he already knows it).

As to an omniscient being deciding to repent ... Well, my far-from-omniscient brain can't handle that concept at all. DOC, can you help me with this one?

[Blue Mountain]

With regard to taking three days to go from one end of Ninevah to the other, I always read that as Jonah taking three days to go into every neighbourhood in the city and preach his message. Does anyone else here see that as a legitimate interpretation?

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

With regard to taking three days to go from one end of Ninevah to the other, I always read that as Jonah taking three days to go into every neighbourhood in the city and preach his message. Does anyone else here see that as a legitimate interpretation?

Jonah 3

Quote:

3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey ...

Make of that what you will, but it looks as though the city is 3 days' journey across.

[Craig B]

See also The Skeptical Review at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2city92.html

Quote:

Jonah obeyed at once and went to Nineveh. He began by going a day's journey into the city, a vast city, three days' journey across... (The New English Bible).

So Jonah arose and went to Nin'eveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nin'eveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey (The New Oxford Annotated Bible).

Jonah set out and went to Nineveh in obedience to the word of Yahweh. Now Nineveh was a city great beyond compare; to cross it took three days. Jonah began by going a day's journey into the city and then proclaimed, "Only forty days more and Nineveh will be overthrown" (The New Jerusalem Bible).

[catsmate1]

Here is a good reference for the multitude of failed biblical prophecies.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by DOC

So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

The tl;dr version is basically that some of the stuff in this list one could believe is true simply because it's blatantly obvious, like the Messiah being a Jew. Others like the massacre of the children are examples of a misreading or misunderstanding of existing "prophetic" works and others, like item 1 on this list, are examples of non-prophecies being turned into prophecies.

Well let's take a look at these prophecies:

Originally Posted by Some list, most likely DOC back in 2008

1. Born of the seed of woman- Gen 3:15, Gal 4:4

Quite frankly this one is a given. Unless you happen to live in some parallel universe where men get pregnant like in that episode of Red Dwarf.

Originally Posted by That list again

2. Born of a virgin- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:18-25

Ah yes, this one. This one depends on whether you accept that the translation of that verse is indeed "virgin" and not "young woman". And if it is indeed a "young woman" then this falls under "blatantly obvious" considering the time period we're talking about.

Originally Posted by Even more list

3. Seed of Abraham- Gen 22:18, Mt 1:1

Well first, I don't know how you can consider the Genesis verse to be a "prophecy". Unless you are saying that no other descendent of Abraham did anything, which if you believe the Bible is blatantly wrong, or are reading far more into what is written there. I'm guessing you've got a way to handwave away the contradiction between Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:16 because if Jesus is not the son of Joseph then he also can't be a descendent of Abraham. As it stands so far 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive, so which one is correct?

Originally Posted by A bunch of points from that list

4. Seed of Isaac- Gen 21:12, Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob- Num 24:17, Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David- Jer 23:5, Lk 3:31

Ah yes, the other contradictory genealogy of Jesus. And don't bother trying to claim that one is Mary's and the other is Joseph's since both Matthew and Luke make it clear that their genealogies are of Joseph despite being contradictory.

I don't see how the Genesis verse is a "prophecy".
I would consider the Numbers verse to be an example of a failed prophecy especially when read in context since it is prophesying things that didn't happen. Perhaps the part where Jesus crushed the foreheads of Moab and the Shethite skulls was supposed to be in the sequel.
I would consider the Jeremiah prophecy to be another failed one since it's rather apparent that Jesus didn't reign as king.

Originally Posted by Yet more list

7. Tribe of Judah- Gen 49:10, Rev 5:5

Jesus? A Jew? Well I never. I mean who would have thought that the messiah to the Jews would come from within the community? I sure as hell didn't. /sarcasm

Originally Posted by Why couldn't this part of the list be point 7 so I could more easily group the genealogy bits?

8. Family line of Jesse- Isa 11:1, Lk 3:32

Oh look, another reference to Luke. Why is it that Luke is the authoritative genealogy while Matthew isn't?

And if Isaiah 11:1 was fulfilled then why didn't the stuff in 11:4-10 happen?

I would just like to point out that the mutual exclusivity of prophecies 2 and 3 also applies to prophecies 4-6 and 8. Either 2 is correct and by default prophecies 3-6, 8 are wrong, or 3-6, 8 are correct and 2 is wrong.

Originally Posted by The list 2, the shoehorning

9. Born in Bethlehem- Mic 5:2, Mt 2:1-6

So we have the Matthew story of the plot point census that was required to get Joseph to go to Bethlehem for some strange reason. And a Micah verse that read in context makes me wonder why the other stuff didn't happen in that chapter. Is it because by the time of Jesus the Assyrians were long gone and that made it irrelevant?

Originally Posted by More shoehorning from the list

10. Herod kills the children- Jer 31:15,
Mt 2:16-18

Let's just ignore the fact that there's no evidence that the Matthew part actually happened, reading the Jeremiah verse in context suggests that it's not literally about children but the dispersion of the Jews after the Babylonians conquered Judah. I say this specifically because Jer 31:21 speaks of the people retuning to the lands that they were taken from.

Summary so far

So far we have at least two "prophecies" that are stupidly obvious, and one more that can be added depending on your interpretation. (1, 7; 2)

Six "prophecies" that are exclusive in a way that either one or five of them are wrong. (2-6, 8)

Two "prophecies" where the initial "prophecy" don't count as prophecies. (1, 4)

Four "prophecies" which predict things that didn't end up happening (5, 6, 8, 9)

One "prophecy" which when read in context has nothing to do with Jesus (10)

But there are still more "prophecies" to go:

Originally Posted by The list, where imaginary verses are presented as "evidence"

11. He pre-existed creation- Mic 5:21, Pet 1:20

I'd like to check the accuracy of this claim, I really would, unfortunately the Micah verse does not seem to exist in my Bible, or any of the online ones either.

Originally Posted by Wherein psalms are quoted

12. He shall be called Lord- Ps 110:1, Acts 2:36

How do we know that this psalm is referring to Jesus? This "prophecy" is a perfect example of using the Bible to prove the Bible, the only evidence we actually have that this is true is because the cited Acts passage says so.

Originally Posted by Where we learn "Jesus" means "Immanuel" even though it doesn't

13. Called Immanuel (God with us)- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:22-23

It's Isaiah 7:14 again. What fun. This one really relies on Matthew though. Somehow, according to Matthew, Jesus, is somehow equivalent to "Immanuel" despite the fact that he's never called "Immanuel" after that passage.

Originally Posted by Prophety list

14. Prophet- Deut 18:18-19, Acts 3:18-25

Oh wow, a passage from Deuteronomy that is fulfilled by nearly everyone who has a book named after them in the Old Testament and even more among the characters within. If anything all this says is that a holy book will contain a greater number of prophets within compared to any given book that isn't about prophets.

Originally Posted by Priestly list

15. Priest- Ps 110:4, Heb 5:5-6

It's Psalm 110 again, only slightly later in the psalm. And it's the one about Melchizedek. The thing that confuses me is how exactly the Hebrews verse shows that the psalms verse is fulfilled. Hell logically verse 6 doesn't follow from verse 5.

Originally Posted by Judgedly list

16. Judge- Isa 33:22, Jn 5:22-23

Isaiah is referring to God in this passage. And what's even stranger is that the John passage actually contradicts the Isaiah passage by saying that God isn't a judge but his son, who is also God, is a judge which comes across as a paradox that kind of explains why Arianism was a popular theological school of thought for several centuries.

Originally Posted by Kingly list

17. King- Ps 2:6, Jn 18:33-37

Jesus pretty much denies that he's a King in John. How exactly can you say that this is a fulfilled prophecy?

Originally Posted by Spiritually annointed list

18. Anointed by the Spirit- Isa 11:2, Mt 3:16-17

The only evidence that we have that this happened is the Bible. We have no way of proving either way that the events in Matthew, Mark and Luke actually happened so you can't say that it was fulfilled as much as I can say that it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Zealous list

19. His zeal for God- Ps 69:9, Jn 2:15-17

The cite from Psalms is from a larger piece about being delivered from persecution but the way it's worded suggests that this "prophecy" could be fulfilled by pretty much any person that's zealous towards God in the history of people being zealous towards God. The John passage suggests that the disciples didn't know their psalms very well.

Summary for this section

You may have noticed that I didn't really talk about the "prophecies" in this section. That's because of the nine prophecies in this section, only one, number 18 comes anything close to a "prophecy" and is one that nobody except Jesus can prove true. Every other "prophecy" in this section are just verses that have been turned into "prophecies" after the fact, either by the gospel authors themselves or by others later on trying to show the "prophetic nature" of Jesus' appearance. The fact that what we're seeing here is a bunch of out of context verses being pushed as "prophecies" really suggests that a lot of barrel scraping had to happen in order to show that "prophecies" have been fulfilled.

I might go through the rest of the list but I'm bored now.