JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 4th April 2012, 04:18 AM   #1721
DOC
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I don't get it, a prophecy that didn't come true came true because of a different interpretation of what was said?
My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.
DOC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 04:18 AM   #1722
Rincewind
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,521
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I don't get it, a prophecy that didn't come true came true because of a different interpretation of what was said?
And apparently proves that other prophecies were fulfilled?
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 04:32 AM   #1723
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: That's how you get ants
Posts: 18,001
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.
That's one interpretation. Another is that it is another failed prophecy in a long list of failed biblical prophecies.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 04:39 AM   #1724
DOC
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
That's one interpretation. Another is that it is another failed prophecy in a long list of failed biblical prophecies.
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

Last edited by DOC; 4th April 2012 at 04:44 AM.
DOC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 04:44 AM   #1725
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: That's how you get ants
Posts: 18,001
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
What about post #10 ?
what about it? Are you suggesting that we haven't discussed that list and found it lacking?

Such an insinuation would be highly dishonest.


ETA:
DOC,
I see you have changed your post.

That is fine. Please note that you are repeating information that has already been discussed. Your revision of your post gives the impression that this is new ground, which is completely not true.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

Last edited by joobz; 4th April 2012 at 05:27 AM.
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 04:45 AM   #1726
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Moderator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 27,470
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
What about post #10 ?
What about all the posts since post 10?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 05:12 AM   #1727
X
Slide Rulez 4 Life
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...)
Posts: 4,111
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
What about post #10 ?
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
what about it? Are you suggesting that we haven't discussed that list and found it lacking?

Such an insinuation would be highly dishonest.
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What about all the posts since post 10?

For anyone confused: DOC re-wrote the post after it was quoted. Actually, he re-wrote it at the same time Joobz and zooterkin we quoting it. Post number 10 provides the same link as the re-written post.

So, unlike other occasions where DOC altered the meaning intentionally, this time the revision cannot be held against him because a) the meaning was not changed, and b) he likely didn't see the replies.

Post 10 is quoted below:

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is a site that lists 60 of the prophecies that have been fulfilled:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...61bccbd43f70aa
__________________
It is sad that this is necessary:
Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly."
Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly."

[X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis
X is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 06:02 AM   #1728
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 13,310
It's worth noting that, much like DOC's google books links, the google groups link doesn't work for everyone either.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 07:16 AM   #1729
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 24,982
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

You appear to be back to "the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true..."
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 07:48 AM   #1730
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field.
Posts: 10,230
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.
I would say "repent or die" is not a free will decision. That would be akin to me robbing you at gunpoint and then saying that you freely decided to give me your valuables.

Besides the prophecy not coming true is by definition the prophecy failing.

Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
And apparently proves that other prophecies were fulfilled?
Yep. Somehow.
__________________
Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+
More Atheism+ stuff

Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 08:25 AM   #1731
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: That's how you get ants
Posts: 18,001
I can say, based upon the evidence, that DOC has failed miserably at convincing anyone that a single biblical prophecy vame true.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 08:49 AM   #1732
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,112
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.
A man swallowed by a big fish, and surviving in its belly for three days. An ancient city three days' journey in diameter. Its king commands the people to make their goats and sheep wear sackcloth. Do you really believe any of this?

Evidently you do! And you have cause to think that most Christians also believe it to be factually true. How can such fatuity be so widespread in the mightiest country the world has ever seen, whose military power bestrides the globe, and whose scholars design machines that have explored every planet in the solar system?
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 09:50 AM   #1733
Mudcat
Man of a Thousand Memes
 
Mudcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,828
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
How can such fatuity be so widespread in the mightiest country the world has ever seen, whose military power bestrides the globe, and whose scholars design machines that have explored every planet in the solar system?
Thankfully it is on the decline. That's a trend I hope to see continue, hopefully world wide.
__________________
The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one.


Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.
Mudcat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 11:45 AM   #1734
kerikiwi
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bay of Islands NZ
Posts: 6,114
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
No.
kerikiwi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 12:39 PM   #1735
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 11,351
^^^
Me neither.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.
So Jesus not fulfilling the 'three days and three nights' prophecy was because...?
__________________
It took us 100 years to find the Titanic, it took us 2,000 years to find Noah’s Ark.
Bill Hemmer of Fox News, commenting on the search for MH370
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 12:46 PM   #1736
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: That's how you get ants
Posts: 18,001
Reupdated Our Poll to include DOC's New question.

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 13
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:6

zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo
dafydd

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0



ETA: Added a name....
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

Last edited by joobz; 4th April 2012 at 01:20 PM.
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 12:48 PM   #1737
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 13,310
So you aren't willing to join Google Lists to read about biblical prophecy?
No.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 01:13 PM   #1738
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
^^^
Me neither.



So Jesus not fulfilling the 'three days and three nights' prophecy was because...?
God changed his mind again. That's Doc's explanation for all the failed prophecies.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 01:14 PM   #1739
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Reupdated Our Poll to include DOC's New question.

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 13
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:5

zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0
A resounding no from me.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 01:20 PM   #1740
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: That's how you get ants
Posts: 18,001
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
A resounding no from me.
Added!
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 02:38 PM   #1741
Lucian
Master Poster
 
Lucian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,728
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
Absolutely not, no, but I'd like to congratulate you for composing a "So" post that does accurately summarize your interlocutors' views.
Lucian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 02:59 PM   #1742
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 11,638
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
No.

Joobz, please add me to the list.
__________________
Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 03:55 PM   #1743
welshdean
2012 6Nations Grand Slam
-------CHAMPIONS-------
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye
Posts: 1,559
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No.

Joobz, please add me to the list.
Me too please Joobz.
__________________
Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author)
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 03:57 PM   #1744
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5,272
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
Well I suppose I should give you credit for posting a link which is accessible outside the US, it saves me from reminding you that the US is less than 5% of the world's population.

No, I don't believe any of those prophecies "came true" if by "came true" you mean they were prophesied prior to the event, and have extra-biblical proof of occurrence. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that your meaning of "came true" is somewhat different.

The bible is not proof of anything; it's a collection of stories which were written after the fact, and it has been altered and edited several times until it ended up as the 66 books we have today, in several different versions. You cannot point to it as evidence of anything which it contains, this is circular reasoning. You'll have studied circular reasoning in that logic course you claim to have taken.
__________________
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 04:10 PM   #1745
welshdean
2012 6Nations Grand Slam
-------CHAMPIONS-------
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye
Posts: 1,559
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Well I suppose I should give you credit for posting a link which is accessible outside the US, it saves me from reminding you that the US is less than 5% of the world's population.

No, I don't believe any of those prophecies "came true" if by "came true" you mean they were prophesied prior to the event, and have extra-biblical proof of occurrence. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that your meaning of "came true" is somewhat different.

The bible is not proof of anything; it's a collection of stories which were written after the fact, and it has been altered and edited several times until it ended up as the 66 books we have today, in several different versions. You cannot point to it as evidence of anything which it contains, this is circular reasoning. You'll have studied circular reasoning in that logic course you claim to have taken.



In all fairness to DOC,
Just one module (that he aced) of a philosophy course he's taken.
__________________
Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author)
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 07:05 PM   #1746
Elizabeth I
Olympic Equestrian Wannabe
 
Elizabeth I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,851
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
No.
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
^^^
Me neither.
I think it's been fairly well established that, except for one person, nobody participating in this thread thinks that "any of these came true."

(Add me to the second list of "no"s)
__________________

• There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill
• Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
• My blog: Pardon me, may I ask...
Elizabeth I is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 07:32 PM   #1747
TimCallahan
Philosopher
 
TimCallahan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,108
DOC, if you see the Book of Jonah as being historical, do you accept the following as true?

1) Jonah was swallowed by a great fish, in which he lived for three days.

2) Nineveh was so large it took three days to cross it.
TimCallahan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 07:36 PM   #1748
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,112
Originally Posted by Elizabeth I View Post
I think it's been fairly well established that, except for one person, nobody participating in this thread thinks that "any of these came true."

(Add me to the second list of "no"s)
And me too, please.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 07:44 PM   #1749
abaddon
Philosopher
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,405
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
Absolutely not.


Quote:
Concerning His birth:
Prophesied---Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman- Gen 3:15, Gal 4:4
Um, what other way is there to go about that business? I have two of my own and have found a woman to be a requisite part of the equation.

Quote:
2. Born of a virgin- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:18-25
Mary got up the duff by means of the holy spook.
Quote:
3. Seed of Abraham- Gen 22:18, Mt 1:1
Yet somehow was born of the line of Abraham.
Quote:
4. Seed of Isaac- Gen 21:12, Lk 3:23+34
And Isaac.
Quote:
5. Seed of Jacob- Num 24:17, Lk 3:34
And Jacob.
Quote:
6. Seed of David- Jer 23:5, Lk 3:31
And David
Quote:
7. Tribe of Judah- Gen 49:10, Rev 5:5
And Judah.
Quote:
8. Family line of Jesse- Isa 11:1, Lk 3:32
And Jesse.
Quote:
9. Born in Bethlehem- Mic 5:2, Mt 2:1-6
Conveniently.
Quote:
10. Herod kills the children- Jer 31:15,
For no particular reason.

See, here's your problem. If you are going to trace your genealogy all the way back through Joseph to David, then Joe boy must be the father.

But if you are going with the Holy Spook, then Joe boy is not the father at all, so you cannot claim the genealogy.

Not to mention the given genealogies don't even match.

So your choice is this, Holy Spook, therefore not descended from David, or born out of wedlock (there is a word for that). Pick one.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 08:18 PM   #1750
Hokulele
Official Nemesis
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats.
Posts: 27,893
Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
...

2) Nineveh was so large it took three days to cross it.

I used to have a car like that.
__________________
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"
Some person: "Why did you shoot that?"
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"

- Tragic Monkey
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 08:26 PM   #1751
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,112
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I used to have a car like that.
Your car was so large it took three days to cross it? Must have been a "full-size" Chrysler.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 08:41 PM   #1752
Hokulele
Official Nemesis
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats.
Posts: 27,893
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Your car was so large it took three days to cross it? Must have been a "full-size" Chrysler.

It's the punchline to an old joke.

Quote:
A potato farmer from Maine was visiting Dallas, and met a Texas rancher. The Texan asked him, "How much land do you have?"

"Well", said the farmer, "I plant about 70 acres every spring."

"That's all?", said the Texan, "On my ranch, I can drive all day and not see the far fence."

"Ayup," replied the farmer, "I used to have a car like that."
__________________
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"
Some person: "Why did you shoot that?"
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"

- Tragic Monkey
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th April 2012, 11:13 PM   #1753
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 11,351
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
God changed his mind again. That's Doc's explanation for all the failed prophecies.
It's so simple to explain away, once you know how!
__________________
It took us 100 years to find the Titanic, it took us 2,000 years to find Noah’s Ark.
Bill Hemmer of Fox News, commenting on the search for MH370
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 01:43 AM   #1754
catsmate1
Penultimate Amazing
 
catsmate1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland)
Posts: 10,288
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
No. Have you any evidence that any of them came true? Outside your babble that is.
catsmate1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 02:00 AM   #1755
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,112
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
It's so simple to explain away, once you know how!
I don't know how "simple" it is for an omniscient being to change his mind. Why would he do it? Because he has obtained new information? Because he realises he made a mistake? In fact I can't imagine how an omnipresent, omniscient entity can make any changes of state at all. He can't move from place to place (he's everywhere) or learn anything (he already knows it).

As to an omniscient being deciding to repent ... Well, my far-from-omniscient brain can't handle that concept at all. DOC, can you help me with this one?
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 05:48 AM   #1756
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 3,925
With regard to taking three days to go from one end of Ninevah to the other, I always read that as Jonah taking three days to go into every neighbourhood in the city and preach his message. Does anyone else here see that as a legitimate interpretation?
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 06:08 AM   #1757
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,112
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
With regard to taking three days to go from one end of Ninevah to the other, I always read that as Jonah taking three days to go into every neighbourhood in the city and preach his message. Does anyone else here see that as a legitimate interpretation?
Jonah 3
Quote:
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey ...
Make of that what you will, but it looks as though the city is 3 days' journey across.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 06:25 AM   #1758
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,112
See also The Skeptical Review at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2city92.html
Quote:
Jonah obeyed at once and went to Nineveh. He began by going a day's journey into the city, a vast city, three days' journey across... (The New English Bible).

So Jonah arose and went to Nin'eveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nin'eveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey (The New Oxford Annotated Bible).

Jonah set out and went to Nineveh in obedience to the word of Yahweh. Now Nineveh was a city great beyond compare; to cross it took three days. Jonah began by going a day's journey into the city and then proclaimed, "Only forty days more and Nineveh will be overthrown" (The New Jerusalem Bible).
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 07:03 AM   #1759
catsmate1
Penultimate Amazing
 
catsmate1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland)
Posts: 10,288
Here is a good reference for the multitude of failed biblical prophecies.
catsmate1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th April 2012, 11:16 AM   #1760
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field.
Posts: 10,230
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So you don't believe any of these came true?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1
The tl;dr version is basically that some of the stuff in this list one could believe is true simply because it's blatantly obvious, like the Messiah being a Jew. Others like the massacre of the children are examples of a misreading or misunderstanding of existing "prophetic" works and others, like item 1 on this list, are examples of non-prophecies being turned into prophecies.

Well let's take a look at these prophecies:

Originally Posted by Some list, most likely DOC back in 2008
1. Born of the seed of woman- Gen 3:15, Gal 4:4
Quite frankly this one is a given. Unless you happen to live in some parallel universe where men get pregnant like in that episode of Red Dwarf.

Originally Posted by That list again
2. Born of a virgin- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:18-25
Ah yes, this one. This one depends on whether you accept that the translation of that verse is indeed "virgin" and not "young woman". And if it is indeed a "young woman" then this falls under "blatantly obvious" considering the time period we're talking about.

Originally Posted by Even more list
3. Seed of Abraham- Gen 22:18, Mt 1:1
Well first, I don't know how you can consider the Genesis verse to be a "prophecy". Unless you are saying that no other descendent of Abraham did anything, which if you believe the Bible is blatantly wrong, or are reading far more into what is written there. I'm guessing you've got a way to handwave away the contradiction between Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:16 because if Jesus is not the son of Joseph then he also can't be a descendent of Abraham. As it stands so far 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive, so which one is correct?

Originally Posted by A bunch of points from that list
4. Seed of Isaac- Gen 21:12, Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob- Num 24:17, Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David- Jer 23:5, Lk 3:31
Ah yes, the other contradictory genealogy of Jesus. And don't bother trying to claim that one is Mary's and the other is Joseph's since both Matthew and Luke make it clear that their genealogies are of Joseph despite being contradictory.

I don't see how the Genesis verse is a "prophecy".
I would consider the Numbers verse to be an example of a failed prophecy especially when read in context since it is prophesying things that didn't happen. Perhaps the part where Jesus crushed the foreheads of Moab and the Shethite skulls was supposed to be in the sequel.
I would consider the Jeremiah prophecy to be another failed one since it's rather apparent that Jesus didn't reign as king.

Originally Posted by Yet more list
7. Tribe of Judah- Gen 49:10, Rev 5:5
Jesus? A Jew? Well I never. I mean who would have thought that the messiah to the Jews would come from within the community? I sure as hell didn't. /sarcasm

Originally Posted by Why couldn't this part of the list be point 7 so I could more easily group the genealogy bits?
8. Family line of Jesse- Isa 11:1, Lk 3:32
Oh look, another reference to Luke. Why is it that Luke is the authoritative genealogy while Matthew isn't?

And if Isaiah 11:1 was fulfilled then why didn't the stuff in 11:4-10 happen?

I would just like to point out that the mutual exclusivity of prophecies 2 and 3 also applies to prophecies 4-6 and 8. Either 2 is correct and by default prophecies 3-6, 8 are wrong, or 3-6, 8 are correct and 2 is wrong.

Originally Posted by The list 2, the shoehorning
9. Born in Bethlehem- Mic 5:2, Mt 2:1-6
So we have the Matthew story of the plot point census that was required to get Joseph to go to Bethlehem for some strange reason. And a Micah verse that read in context makes me wonder why the other stuff didn't happen in that chapter. Is it because by the time of Jesus the Assyrians were long gone and that made it irrelevant?

Originally Posted by More shoehorning from the list
10. Herod kills the children- Jer 31:15,
Mt 2:16-18
Let's just ignore the fact that there's no evidence that the Matthew part actually happened, reading the Jeremiah verse in context suggests that it's not literally about children but the dispersion of the Jews after the Babylonians conquered Judah. I say this specifically because Jer 31:21 speaks of the people retuning to the lands that they were taken from.

Summary so far

So far we have at least two "prophecies" that are stupidly obvious, and one more that can be added depending on your interpretation. (1, 7; 2)

Six "prophecies" that are exclusive in a way that either one or five of them are wrong. (2-6, 8)

Two "prophecies" where the initial "prophecy" don't count as prophecies. (1, 4)

Four "prophecies" which predict things that didn't end up happening (5, 6, 8, 9)

One "prophecy" which when read in context has nothing to do with Jesus (10)

But there are still more "prophecies" to go:

Originally Posted by The list, where imaginary verses are presented as "evidence"
11. He pre-existed creation- Mic 5:21, Pet 1:20
I'd like to check the accuracy of this claim, I really would, unfortunately the Micah verse does not seem to exist in my Bible, or any of the online ones either.

Originally Posted by Wherein psalms are quoted
12. He shall be called Lord- Ps 110:1, Acts 2:36
How do we know that this psalm is referring to Jesus? This "prophecy" is a perfect example of using the Bible to prove the Bible, the only evidence we actually have that this is true is because the cited Acts passage says so.

Originally Posted by Where we learn "Jesus" means "Immanuel" even though it doesn't
13. Called Immanuel (God with us)- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:22-23
It's Isaiah 7:14 again. What fun. This one really relies on Matthew though. Somehow, according to Matthew, Jesus, is somehow equivalent to "Immanuel" despite the fact that he's never called "Immanuel" after that passage.

Originally Posted by Prophety list
14. Prophet- Deut 18:18-19, Acts 3:18-25
Oh wow, a passage from Deuteronomy that is fulfilled by nearly everyone who has a book named after them in the Old Testament and even more among the characters within. If anything all this says is that a holy book will contain a greater number of prophets within compared to any given book that isn't about prophets.

Originally Posted by Priestly list
15. Priest- Ps 110:4, Heb 5:5-6
It's Psalm 110 again, only slightly later in the psalm. And it's the one about Melchizedek. The thing that confuses me is how exactly the Hebrews verse shows that the psalms verse is fulfilled. Hell logically verse 6 doesn't follow from verse 5.

Originally Posted by Judgedly list
16. Judge- Isa 33:22, Jn 5:22-23
Isaiah is referring to God in this passage. And what's even stranger is that the John passage actually contradicts the Isaiah passage by saying that God isn't a judge but his son, who is also God, is a judge which comes across as a paradox that kind of explains why Arianism was a popular theological school of thought for several centuries.

Originally Posted by Kingly list
17. King- Ps 2:6, Jn 18:33-37
Jesus pretty much denies that he's a King in John. How exactly can you say that this is a fulfilled prophecy?

Originally Posted by Spiritually annointed list
18. Anointed by the Spirit- Isa 11:2, Mt 3:16-17
The only evidence that we have that this happened is the Bible. We have no way of proving either way that the events in Matthew, Mark and Luke actually happened so you can't say that it was fulfilled as much as I can say that it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Zealous list
19. His zeal for God- Ps 69:9, Jn 2:15-17
The cite from Psalms is from a larger piece about being delivered from persecution but the way it's worded suggests that this "prophecy" could be fulfilled by pretty much any person that's zealous towards God in the history of people being zealous towards God. The John passage suggests that the disciples didn't know their psalms very well.

Summary for this section

You may have noticed that I didn't really talk about the "prophecies" in this section. That's because of the nine prophecies in this section, only one, number 18 comes anything close to a "prophecy" and is one that nobody except Jesus can prove true. Every other "prophecy" in this section are just verses that have been turned into "prophecies" after the fact, either by the gospel authors themselves or by others later on trying to show the "prophetic nature" of Jesus' appearance. The fact that what we're seeing here is a bunch of out of context verses being pushed as "prophecies" really suggests that a lot of barrel scraping had to happen in order to show that "prophecies" have been fulfilled.

I might go through the rest of the list but I'm bored now.
__________________
Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+
More Atheism+ stuff

Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:21 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.