The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy - Page 48

joobz · 11th April 2012, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".

What do you think we have been talking about?
Here's a great answer.

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.

dafydd · 11th April 2012, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

DOC: Why do you even care when the end will come?

This daft Rapture idea?

dafydd · 11th April 2012, 05:11 PM

Doc, why do you take seriously the ramblings of a man who obviously wrote Revelation under the influence of some powerful hallucinogenic? Either that or he was just plain crazy.

Fast Eddie B · 11th April 2012, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".

Prescient that I recently quoted William Jefferson Clinton in this thread!

joobz · 11th April 2012, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Prescient that I recently quoted William Jefferson Clinton in this thread!

As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems.

Fast Eddie B · 11th April 2012, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems.

Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time?

I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"?

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Spooky, eh?

Craig B · 11th April 2012, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.

You haven't read my #1862, have you? Please do so, and tell me why I am mistaken. I have said that a thousand year reign can "come to pass" soon. Refute me if you want to go on saying it can't.

The best treatment of Revelation by any commentator may be found here, along with a similar take on other books of the Bible. http://www.bricktestament.com/

Mudcat · 11th April 2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.

Even if we were to allow this goal post to be shifted unchallenged those things never came to pass for the 7 Churches. However "All these things shall soon come to pass" seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Originally Posted by DOC

Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Sure. Why don't you try sharing the gospel with a hungry gator and report back to us how interested they are in hearing it?

Originally Posted by DOC

There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.

[sarcasm]Oh gee if only someone would invent a magical communications tool that connect billions of living breathing humans together so they could share thoughts and ideas over vast distances even in third world countries like the Internet does.[/sarcasm]

Originally Posted by DOC

And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?

Craig B · 11th April 2012, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?

Eastern Orthodoxy appears to have been reluctant to accept Revelation. It was finally defined as part of the Eastern canon at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. However, it is not present in the Orthodox lectionary, from which passages are read during church services. It is the only NT book omitted in this way.

Craig B · 11th April 2012, 11:35 PM

We don't need to limit ourselves to Revelation 1 to find a soon or a shortly. Here's the NIV version of Chapter 22. What are these words supposed to mean, DOC, if not what they clearly say?

Quote:

6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” 7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.” ... 12 “Look, I am coming soon! ... "

And when you've explained that, please tell us how a prophecy of stars falling out of the sky can be reconciled with current knowledge of the sizes and distances of the stars.

Mojo · 12th April 2012, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.

And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.

The population here in Belgium is increasing, religion is in decline so there are less people to preach the gospel nonsense so yes, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done again Doc, you keep coming up with reasons why no prophecy has been fulfilled or ever will be fulfilled.

Fast Eddie B · 12th April 2012, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.

...and there are billions who have, and have rejected it, either preferring another mythology or none at all.

What do those billions have in store for them in the end times? I assume a benevolent God has something nice planned!

DOC · 12th April 2012, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

DOC · 12th April 2012, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

...and there are billions who have {heard the gospel}, and have rejected it, either preferring another mythology or none at all...

I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.

Fast Eddie B · 12th April 2012, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

...and then the end will come.

The end of what???

I watched an interesting DOCumentary called "Waiting For Armageddon". Available streaming on NetFlix.

Pretty sad the potential that has been squandered over the years by generations sure the end was nigh...

...and was wrong again and again and again...

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.

How many Hindus and Muslims have lived in the past? How many atheists? How many adherents of other religions?

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So we can be sure that the end will never come. The gospel has been preached all over the world. You are so good at shooting yourself in the foot.

joobz · 12th April 2012, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

In other words, the book of revelation contradicts another book of the bible's prophecy.

Lamuella · 12th April 2012, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time?

I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"?

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Spooky, eh?

in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out.

joobz · 12th April 2012, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.

2/3rd of the world are something other than christian. the current world population is somewhere around 6.8 billion people. That means 4.5 billion people are in this world are something other than christian.

In order for your "Doubt" to be validated, you would have to assume that less than 22% of those people (1billion or few) had actually heard the gospels.

Given the wide spread nature of missionaries and christian churches throughout the world, such a claim is laughable.

Fast Eddie B · 12th April 2012, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.

I doubt your doubt.

How about another category in the poll: I have heard the gospel and rejected it?

I'll go first.

Just 999,999,999 to go for the first billion!

Mojo · 12th April 2012, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

You were using "every person alive [not having] had a chance to hear the gospel" as an excuse for the failure of the specific prophecy that a thousand year reign would soon come to pass. If your argument is correct, then the thousand year reign can never come to pass, because more people are always being born, and thus there will always be some who have not yet heard the gospel.

Either your excuse is not valid, or you have yourself demonstrated that the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

carlitos · 12th April 2012, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by joobz

2/3rd of the world are something other than christian. the current world population is somewhere around 6.8 billion people. That means 4.5 billion people are in this world are something other than christian.

In order for your "Doubt" to be validated, you would have to assume that less than 22% of those people (1billion or few) had actually heard the gospels.

Given the wide spread nature of missionaries and christian churches throughout the world, such a claim is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_missionaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...c_Missionaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_China_missions

AdMan · 12th April 2012, 06:47 AM

DOC, why did you go off-topic and bring up a prophecy that even you agree has not been fulfilled?

Have you given up trying to defend ones that you believe actually have been?

I don't blame you.

Rincewind · 12th April 2012, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

OK - so when did this prophecy get fulfilled?

Wildy · 12th April 2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So what you're saying is that the only thing preventing the end of the world is the fact that there are peoples out there, like the Sentinelese, who will never hear the gospel because they'll kill those who attempt to arrive on their land?

carlitos · 12th April 2012, 08:23 AM

Maybe the Christians could do like the Mormons, reading people into the book of the dead so that they can receive the gospel posthumously.

Craig B · 12th April 2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Why stop there? The prophetic words continue in later verses of that chapter, and a time limit is set:

Quote:

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

welshdean · 12th April 2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

So what you're saying is that the only thing preventing the end of the world is the fact that there are peoples out there, like the Sentinelese, who will never hear the gospel because they'll kill those who attempt to arrive on their land?

We often hear many people pop into DOC's train wrecks, and ask why people even bother to participate, but you know what, I love 'em.

Thanks Wildy, I've learnt something new today. Thanks for the link.

I'f DOC's god has revealed herself to the Sentinelese, I'll be a believer. If not and they have a different god, then why is theirs any less important than yours DOC?

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 10:38 AM

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The furthest stars from the Earth are billions of light years away. If the end times are starting soon Doc, it will take them a long time to fall to Earth, even traveling at the speed of light. Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.

RoboTimbo · 12th April 2012, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.

Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?

TheGoldcountry · 12th April 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out.

I've always had sincere admiration for that line. Two huge spheres of steel with a mind and mouth behind them. I didn't like the dishonesty, but admired the chutzpah.

TheGoldcountry · 12th April 2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?

It is similar to the difference between "will" and "shall". "Soon" is conveniently qualitative.

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?

The biblical ''soon'' seems to be anytime between tomorrow and the next 14 billion years.

Craig B · 12th April 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The furthest stars from the Earth are billions of light years away. If the end times are starting soon Doc, it will take them a long time to fall to Earth, even traveling at the speed of light. Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.

And even if they were moving in that direction, it would be like a myriad footballs falling on to a mote of dust.

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

And even if they were moving in that direction, it would be like a myriad footballs falling on to a mote of dust.

Yes, there are stars that are millions of times bigger than the Earth, but drug addled John didn't know that. I wonder why god didn't tell him?

DOC · 12th April 2012, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Even if we were to allow this goal post to be shifted unchallenged those things never came to pass for the 7 Churches. However "All these things shall soon come to pass" seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.

carlitos · 12th April 2012, 12:05 PM

Here DOC - ?

I had an extra.

dafydd · 12th April 2012, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.

When can I expect the stars to fall on me?

11th April 2012, 05:08 PM	#1881
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,505	Originally Posted by DOC You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it". What do you think we have been talking about? Here's a great answer. Originally Posted by TimCallahan Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc. Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation. This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30): Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done. "All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

11th April 2012, 05:09 PM	#1882
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	Originally Posted by TimCallahan DOC: Why do you even care when the end will come? This daft Rapture idea?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

11th April 2012, 05:11 PM	#1883
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	Doc, why do you take seriously the ramblings of a man who obviously wrote Revelation under the influence of some powerful hallucinogenic? Either that or he was just plain crazy.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

11th April 2012, 06:04 PM	#1885
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,505	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Prescient that I recently quoted William Jefferson Clinton in this thread! As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

11th April 2012, 07:07 PM	#1887
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007	Originally Posted by DOC It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about. You haven't read my #1862, have you? Please do so, and tell me why I am mistaken. I have said that a thousand year reign can "come to pass" soon. Refute me if you want to go on saying it can't. The best treatment of Revelation by any commentator may be found here, along with a similar take on other books of the Bible. http://www.bricktestament.com/
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007

11th April 2012, 06:02 PM	#1884
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by DOC You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it". Prescient that I recently quoted William Jefferson Clinton in this thread!

11th April 2012, 06:58 PM	#1886
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by joobz As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems. Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time? I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"? "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." Spooky, eh?

11th April 2012, 08:13 PM	#1888
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,687	Originally Posted by DOC It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about. Even if we were to allow this goal post to be shifted unchallenged those things never came to pass for the 7 Churches. However "All these things shall soon come to pass" seems pretty straight-forward to me. Originally Posted by DOC Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Sure. Why don't you try sharing the gospel with a hungry gator and report back to us how interested they are in hearing it? Originally Posted by DOC There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. [sarcasm]Oh gee if only someone would invent a magical communications tool that connect billions of living breathing humans together so they could share thoughts and ideas over vast distances even in third world countries like the Internet does.[/sarcasm] Originally Posted by DOC And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 11th April 2012 at 08:42 PM.

11th April 2012, 08:35 PM	#1889
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007	Originally Posted by Mudcat Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible? Eastern Orthodoxy appears to have been reluctant to accept Revelation. It was finally defined as part of the Eastern canon at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. However, it is not present in the Orthodox lectionary, from which passages are read during church services. It is the only NT book omitted in this way.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007

11th April 2012, 11:35 PM	#1890
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007	We don't need to limit ourselves to Revelation 1 to find a soon or a shortly. Here's the NIV version of Chapter 22. What are these words supposed to mean, DOC, if not what they clearly say? Quote: 6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” 7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.” ... 12 “Look, I am coming soon! ... " And when you've explained that, please tell us how a prophecy of stars falling out of the sky can be reconciled with current knowledge of the sizes and distances of the stars.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007

12th April 2012, 01:45 AM	#1891
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,107	Originally Posted by DOC Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel. And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

12th April 2012, 03:07 AM	#1892
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	Originally Posted by Mojo And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done. The population here in Belgium is increasing, religion is in decline so there are less people to preach the gospel nonsense so yes, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done again Doc, you keep coming up with reasons why no prophecy has been fulfilled or ever will be fulfilled.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

12th April 2012, 05:03 AM	#1893
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by DOC There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. ...and there are billions who have, and have rejected it, either preferring another mythology or none at all. What do those billions have in store for them in the end times? I assume a benevolent God has something nice planned!

12th April 2012, 05:10 AM	#1894
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,753	Originally Posted by Mojo And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done. Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

12th April 2012, 05:17 AM	#1895
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,753	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B ...and there are billions who have {heard the gospel}, and have rejected it, either preferring another mythology or none at all... I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it.

12th April 2012, 05:19 AM	#1896
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by DOC ...and then the end will come. The end of what??? I watched an interesting DOCumentary called "Waiting For Armageddon". Available streaming on NetFlix. Pretty sad the potential that has been squandered over the years by generations sure the end was nigh... ...and was wrong again and again and again...

12th April 2012, 05:25 AM	#1897
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	Originally Posted by DOC I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it. How many Hindus and Muslims have lived in the past? How many atheists? How many adherents of other religions?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

12th April 2012, 05:26 AM	#1898
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	Originally Posted by DOC Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. So we can be sure that the end will never come. The gospel has been preached all over the world. You are so good at shooting yourself in the foot.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 12th April 2012 at 05:28 AM.

12th April 2012, 05:44 AM	#1899
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,505	Originally Posted by DOC Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. In other words, the book of revelation contradicts another book of the bible's prophecy.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

12th April 2012, 05:50 AM	#1900
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time? I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"? "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." Spooky, eh? in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

12th April 2012, 05:53 AM	#1901
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,505	Originally Posted by DOC I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it. 2/3rd of the world are something other than christian. the current world population is somewhere around 6.8 billion people. That means 4.5 billion people are in this world are something other than christian. In order for your "Doubt" to be validated, you would have to assume that less than 22% of those people (1billion or few) had actually heard the gospels. Given the wide spread nature of missionaries and christian churches throughout the world, such a claim is laughable.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

12th April 2012, 05:53 AM	#1902
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by DOC I doubt billions have heard the gospel and rejected it. I doubt your doubt. How about another category in the poll: I have heard the gospel and rejected it? I'll go first. Just 999,999,999 to go for the first billion!

12th April 2012, 06:02 AM	#1903
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,107	Originally Posted by DOC Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. You were using "every person alive [not having] had a chance to hear the gospel" as an excuse for the failure of the specific prophecy that a thousand year reign would soon come to pass. If your argument is correct, then the thousand year reign can never come to pass, because more people are always being born, and thus there will always be some who have not yet heard the gospel. Either your excuse is not valid, or you have yourself demonstrated that the prophecy can never be fulfilled.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

12th April 2012, 06:05 AM	#1904
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,549	Originally Posted by joobz 2/3rd of the world are something other than christian. the current world population is somewhere around 6.8 billion people. That means 4.5 billion people are in this world are something other than christian. In order for your "Doubt" to be validated, you would have to assume that less than 22% of those people (1billion or few) had actually heard the gospels. Given the wide spread nature of missionaries and christian churches throughout the world, such a claim is laughable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_missionaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...c_Missionaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aries_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_China_missions

12th April 2012, 06:47 AM	#1905
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,197	DOC, why did you go off-topic and bring up a prophecy that even you agree has not been fulfilled? Have you given up trying to defend ones that you believe actually have been? I don't blame you.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,197	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

12th April 2012, 07:37 AM	#1906
Rincewind Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,162	Originally Posted by DOC Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. OK - so when did this prophecy get fulfilled?

12th April 2012, 08:09 AM	#1907
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,924	Originally Posted by DOC Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. So what you're saying is that the only thing preventing the end of the world is the fact that there are peoples out there, like the Sentinelese, who will never hear the gospel because they'll kill those who attempt to arrive on their land?
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

12th April 2012, 08:23 AM	#1908
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,549	Maybe the Christians could do like the Mormons, reading people into the book of the dead so that they can receive the gospel posthumously.

12th April 2012, 09:27 AM	#1909
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007	Originally Posted by DOC Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Why stop there? The prophetic words continue in later verses of that chapter, and a time limit is set: Quote: 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007

12th April 2012, 10:00 AM	#1910
welshdean 2012 6Nations Grand Slam -------CHAMPIONS------- Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye Posts: 1,398	Originally Posted by Wildy So what you're saying is that the only thing preventing the end of the world is the fact that there are peoples out there, like the Sentinelese, who will never hear the gospel because they'll kill those who attempt to arrive on their land? We often hear many people pop into DOC's train wrecks, and ask why people even bother to participate, but you know what, I love 'em. Thanks Wildy, I've learnt something new today. Thanks for the link. I'f DOC's god has revealed herself to the Sentinelese, I'll be a believer. If not and they have a different god, then why is theirs any less important than yours DOC?
	__________________ Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author) Last edited by welshdean; 12th April 2012 at 10:01 AM. Reason: tablet! 'nuff said

12th April 2012, 10:38 AM	#1911
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. The furthest stars from the Earth are billions of light years away. If the end times are starting soon Doc, it will take them a long time to fall to Earth, even traveling at the speed of light. Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

12th April 2012, 10:40 AM	#1912
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 21,888	Originally Posted by dafydd Observation tells us that no stars are moving en masse towards the Earth so the end time will not be coming anytime soon. Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it?

12th April 2012, 10:42 AM	#1913
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,539	Originally Posted by Lamuella in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out. I've always had sincere admiration for that line. Two huge spheres of steel with a mind and mouth behind them. I didn't like the dishonesty, but admired the chutzpah.
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

12th April 2012, 10:45 AM	#1914
TheGoldcountry Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,539	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it? It is similar to the difference between "will" and "shall". "Soon" is conveniently qualitative.
	__________________ Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten

12th April 2012, 10:51 AM	#1915
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,484	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Depends on your definition of "soon", doesn't it? The biblical ''soon'' seems to be anytime between tomorrow and the next 14 billion years.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.