The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy - Page 78

Lucian · 7th June 2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by joobz

This is why I read DOC threads. It is for posts like this.
Thank you! It was awesome.

I have a prediction, however:

Or

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Do you think DOC is fooling more than one person?

.
It is a form of literary self-abuse he engages in.

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Why must you assume that, DOC?
Do you really not see that choosing translations of the bible à la carte weakens any assertion that there are, indeed, ANY fulfilled prophecies in it?
...

.
How come it is that this holiest of books is not divinely protected from mis-translations?
Ya'd think Sky Daddy would see to that... He notices sparrows dropping hither and yon after all.

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

Fail. If you want to look at all the evidence, you look at the original. Why don't you put in some effort to learn Koine Greek? It really is not hard to read the NT, certainly compared to, say, Homer or Aeschylos.

.
I wanna see the real original!
It will appear to be unreadable, but due to the guidance of the heavenly process, it will be readable by all in their languages.
A simul-print, as it were.

catsmate1 · 7th June 2012, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/Hos...OCDOLLARS2.jpg

Don't spend it all on muffins.

Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Don't spend it all on muffins.

Nope. Apple turnover. With custard.

Originally Posted by DOC

Then you have to wonder why Iran, a Muslim theocracy, has the world's worse drug addiction problem,<snip>

What has this to do with your inability to show a fufilled babble "prophecy"?
Stop it.

TimCallahan · 7th June 2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
How come it is that this holiest of books is not divinely protected from mis-translations?
Ya'd think Sky Daddy would see to that... He notices sparrows dropping hither and yon after all.

Yes; this is particularly absurd when you consider the Christian apologetic that not only were the inspired authors divinely protected from error, but that the various church councils deciding which books to include in the canon and which to exclude were likewise under divine guidance*. So, God protected the authors of the holy books from error, the church councils from error, but forgot about protecting copyists and translators.

*Of course Protestants assume that Catholics were less divinely guided, and the Catholics return the favor.

ddt · 7th June 2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Yes; this is particularly absurd when you consider the Christian apologetic that not only were the inspired authors divinely protected from error, but that the various church councils deciding which books to include in the canon and which to exclude were likewise under divine guidance*. So, God protected the authors of the holy books from error, the church councils from error, but forgot about protecting copyists and translators.

*Of course Protestants assume that Catholics were less divinely guided, and the Catholics return the favor.

So what is then actually the correct and divinely inspired text of the NT?

The Textus Receptus, on which KJV was based?

Westcott-Hort?
Nestle-Aland?

And why is so much effort needed by so many bright scholars to try and reconstruct the original text? DOC, inquiring minds want to know!

Mojo · 10th June 2012, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled?

ETA: not deleted.

DOC · 10th June 2012, 02:56 AM

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

ETA added bold

Mojo · 10th June 2012, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled?

dafydd · 10th June 2012, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled?

ddt · 10th June 2012, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

Why Young? I thought we were done with this "literal" stuff.

Originally Posted by DOC

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?

So Mark copied those words. Any evidence Jesus actually said them? The three other ~~fairy tale~~ gospel writers had other last words.

Originally Posted by DOC

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

What "prophecy" is in there?

Originally Posted by DOC

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

Piercing a literal translation? Cue laughing dog.

This Hebrew text has כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י which means "to dig". See Strong's concordance, it is mostly used in the combination "digging a pit" or "digging a well". This apart from the fact that many MSS have a different word here meaning "like a lion".

The Septuagint Greek text - which most likely the NT writers knew and consulted - has ώρυξαν which also means "to dig". See again Strong's concordance, this word again is used for digging things into the ground.

So, to read "piercing" into this word is wishful thinking at best.

And then, of course, it cannot refer to the crucifixion: the nails go through the wrists and ankles, not through the hands and feet.

Originally Posted by DOC

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

Let's see that in the Greek version:

Quote:

διεμερίσαντο τα ιμάτιά μου εαυτοίς και επί τον ιματισμόν μου έβαλον κλήρον

And then the Greek of Mark 15:24:

Quote:

καὶ διαμερίζονται τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτου, βάλλοντες κλῆρον ἐπ' αὐτα

It's almost as if Mark used exactly the same verbs and nouns, changed the tense and "my" into "his" and voilà, we have a prophecy fulfilled!

ETA:
Counts of prophecy fulfilled: 0
Counts of blatant copying: 1
Counts of wilfull lying by our resident apologist: 1

Akhenaten · 10th June 2012, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

What makes you think you're entitled to move on to new failures when you haven't addressed your previous ones? To tell the truth, I don't know why you were ever allowed to move forward to Isiah.

Well. not on my watch, you don't.

Let's have another look at the very first prophocy mentioned in this long-running fiasco, all the way back in post #4 in January, 2008.

Originally Posted by DOC

Well here are 3 out of the 13 he listed. He also said about 2000 out of 2500 have been fulfilled so far.

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ.

<snip>

Now I don't want you to go into any detail in defence of the utter balderdash that this prophecy was fulfilled - you've got the whole of TTTWND in which to fail at that. I just want you to explain what the odds were on this event and how they were calculated. Then we'll move forward logically from there, rather than jump about at random for no other reason than that you've been backed into a corner while trying to explain that a large modern city in Lebanon isn't actually there, or why Jerusalem is full of Muslims.

ETA:

Handwave and Wilbur your way out of ddt's post first, and then we'll head back to the future.

Akhenaten · 10th June 2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

Since we're going to spend a little time on this anyway, I may as well ask.

Why is a smooshed-up version of the first verse of the Psalm tacked on to the beginning of the 12th.

Given that this was your second attempt to post this latest load of fail are we to assume that as well as being unable to use the search function or to follow internal links you're now having trouble with the clipboard?

Maybe there is a God, and maybe he's trying to tell you something.

dafydd · 10th June 2012, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Probably not, since he likes to make a big song and dance about ignoring people, with an announcement about how long the 'punishment' will last and that sort of thing.

He refers to adding people to his ignore list as 'blocking' them and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that he believes he actually has the power to stop people from posting in 'his' threads.

He will do anything except admit that there are no fulfilled prophecies. All he has done in this thread is prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

joobz · 10th June 2012, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53

Yes. We've determined that it represents a failed prophecy.
Let's see how your new one goes.

Originally Posted by DOC

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

ETA added bold

What is it I'm supposed to be seeing?

Mojo · 10th June 2012, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by joobz

Let's see how your new one goes.

Originally Posted by DOC

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

ETA added bold

What is it I'm supposed to be seeing?

Something a bit like a Nostradamus quatrain, but with more lines.

Agatha · 10th June 2012, 08:56 AM

It's okay folks, I've been studying DOCish in my spare time and I believe I can fill in a few stray blanks for you. It's all about the bolded bits.

In Psalm 22, some of the words are similar to the language used in the Gospels to describe the crucifixion and the resurrection; for example the "My God why hast thou forsaken me" mirrors the last words of Jesus as reported by the author of Matthew and Mark (except for the loud cry), and of course this report is contradicted by the authors of Luke* and John.

Then, the next bit bolded mentions being poured out like water, and in the Gospel of John, the author reports that blood and water poured out when the soldier pierced Jesus' side. Of course, that's not mentioned in the other three Gospels.

Piercing my hands and feet is reminiscent of how the crucifixion is portrayed (though not how crucifixion was actually performed by the Romans).

Apportioning garments is a nod to the verses in Luke, Mark and John where the soldiers divide Jesus' clothes amongst themselves. Luke has the soldiers playing dice but John says they divided them equally - perhaps they all threw the same number. The author of Matthew must have forgotten that bit.

And so, Ps22 is seen to be prophetic by reference to the Gospels. It's almost like the authors of the NT had the OT to read, just to ensure they'd make the NT fulfil some OT prophecies.

Once again, it's the bible is true because the bible says it's true, and the bible is true because...

For those of us not in thrall to the Boys Big Book of Campfire Fairy Tales, vol I and II, it's meaningless wordplay.

*That's Luke the talented historian, the one who doesn't have Jesus' last words match Ps 22.

Lucian · 10th June 2012, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

ETA added bold

Does anyone else hear this in the voice of Yoda?

Blue Mountain · 10th June 2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by joobz

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53

Yes. We've determined that it represents a failed prophecy.
Let's see how your new one goes.

Originally Posted by DOC

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

ETA added bold

What is it I'm supposed to be seeing?

What you're supposed to see is that it is self-evident that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

The parts DOC has bolded are re-referenced in the gospels. The first part of verse 14 ("As waters I have been poured out", and usually extended to the phrase "and separated themselves have all my bones") and the last part of verse 16 ("Piercing my hands and my feet") are viewed by Christians as a description of the crucifixion.

As for verse 18 ("They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall."), all four gospel writer have a line that reads, "And the soldiers cast lots for his garments." The writer of John goes further, explaining that one of Jesus' garments was a single woven cloth that the soldiers were reluctant to tear, so they cast lots for it.

Christian like DOC believe that if it was written in the Bible, it must be true. Skeptics start from a default position of "it might be true, but let's take a look at all the available evidence to see if that's the case." And here's where things start to break down. The writers of Matthew, Mark and Luke all appear to have used the same source material; if that source got it wrong about the casting of lots, then all three accounts are suspect. As for John, people have questioned whether Jesus, a tradesman turned itinerant preacher, would have owned a robe that seems to be available only to the priestly class.

Skeptics also see data mining: there's a lot of material in the Old Testament that could be searched and then stretched to fit the events around the life of Jesus as they saw fit. In addition to the mining, there was also a lot of cherry picking; I suspect a lot of material that pertained to the Messiah was simply ignored if it didn't fit their narrative of Jesus.

Craig B · 10th June 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by joobz

Yes. We've determined that it represents a failed prophecy.
Let's see how your new one goes.

What is it I'm supposed to be seeing?

I don't know. But Psalms 22:16 can be made to say "pierce my hands and feet" only by translating the Greek version, the Septuagint, because the

Quote:

Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text

(according to the NIV commentary) give "pierce me, like a lion". The Greek version seems to be garbled here. As to v18, it is an example of poetic parallelism. The apportioning of garments and casting lots for clothing are two statements of the same thing. This very common Hebrew poetic device was not appreciated by the Greek-speaking author of the Gospel According to John. He understands it to refer to two processes, a division, and then a casting of lots. To make sense of this, he invents an indivisible article of clothing, "out of whole cloth" one might say. See John 19 (NIV)

Quote:

23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. 24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,“They divided my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.” So this is what the soldiers did.

Manifestly this is not the fulfilment of a prophecy but the invention of events resembling a prophecy which the author wants to show has been fulfilled. His "fulfilment" included the "fulfilment" of something he misunderstood, that wasn't in the prophecy as written, and also the "fulfillment" of something found only in some Greek versions, but not in the Hebrew.

Other examples abound, of the "fulfillment" of misunderstood or mistranslated Hebrew prophecies. Jesus' "virgin" mother; Matthew's description of Jesus riding into Jerusalem on two donkeys, and so on.

Rincewind · 10th June 2012, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lucian

Does anyone else hear this in the voice of Yoda?

Aha! That explains the Gospel according to Sir Luke Skywalker...

Akhenaten · 10th June 2012, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Rincewind

Aha! That explains the Gospel according to Sir Luke Skywalker...

Mojo · 10th June 2012, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Agatha

It's okay folks, I've been studying DOCish in my spare time and I believe I can fill in a few stray blanks for you. It's all about the bolded bits.

In Psalm 22, some of the words are similar to the language used in the Gospels to describe the crucifixion and the resurrection...

I can't imagine how that could have happened without divine intervention, unless the gospel writers and editors were somehow trying to make their story fit the prophecy.

Mudcat · 11th June 2012, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled?

ETA: not deleted.

"Is this even a prophecy at all?" I think is the more accurate question here.

dafydd · 11th June 2012, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

"Is this even a prophecy at all?" I think is the more accurate question here.

Doc calls it a prophecy, so we will use Docspeak.

ddt · 11th June 2012, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

I don't know. But Psalms 22:16 can be made to say "pierce my hands and feet" only by translating the Greek version, the Septuagint, because the

Originally Posted by NIV

Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text

(according to the NIV commentary) give "pierce me, like a lion".

(nitpick) It's actually the Hebrew word for "pierce" that reads "like a lion" in those versions; the footnote refers to the word "pierce". So it would read: "like a lion, my hands and feet". That footnote is about the word "pierce".

Originally Posted by Craig B

The Greek version seems to be garbled here.

To be fair, most commentators have problems with the "lion" version as well: for one, it lacks a verb.

Fast Eddie B · 11th June 2012, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

(nitpick)

To be fair, most commentators have problems with the "lion" version as well: for one, it lacks a verb.

You're right!

That sentence no verb!

Craig B · 11th June 2012, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

(nitpick) It's actually the Hebrew word for "pierce" that reads "like a lion" in those versions; the footnote refers to the word "pierce". So it would read: "like a lion, my hands and feet". That footnote is about the word "pierce".

To be fair, most commentators have problems with the "lion" version as well: for one, it lacks a verb.

Thanks. I thought it was as you have stated, but I checked with the notes to the NIV in Biblegateway and misidentified the word being referred to. It's been mildly troubling me today, so thanks for the clarification. I should in this case have trusted my own memory.

ddt · 11th June 2012, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Thanks. I thought it was as you have stated, but I checked with the notes to the NIV in Biblegateway and misidentified the word being referred to. It's been mildly troubling me today, so thanks for the clarification. I should in this case have trusted my own memory.

Sorry then that I didn't respond earlier; I spotted it right away. I had already mentioned it in this post.

Of course, no answer - not even a single reaction - will be forthcoming from DOC. Not in a day, not in a week, not in a thousand posts. How's that for prophecy?

kmortis · 11th June 2012, 07:14 AM

Keep it civil.
Keep it on topic.
The topic is not the other posters, no matter how tempting they make themsleves.

Posted By:kmortis

I Ratant · 11th June 2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

You're right!

That sentence no verb!

.
A verb!
A Verb!
My unending faithfulness for a verb!

mjt532 · 17th June 2012, 10:14 PM

Just curious what Christians do with v 22

The subject of this psalm asks God to get him out of this predicament he's in in 19-21

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Then in v 22 (it would appear at least) that he's looking forward to a time when God finally rescues him

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.

How does v 22 apply to Jesus on the cross...he's about to die. How will he perform these actions?

mjt532 · 17th June 2012, 10:22 PM

[quote=Agatha;8358803

Piercing my hands and feet is reminiscent of how the crucifixion is portrayed (though not how crucifixion was actually performed by the Romans).

QUOTE]

Do you have a reference for this? My understanding is that there was no set 'formula' for crucifixion...genitals, hands and feet, upside down, with or without a stand....whatever they felt like doing. Of course, we only have one piece of physical evidence, and that's a spike through the heelbone.

Akhenaten · 17th June 2012, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by mjt532

Just curious what Christians do with v 22

The subject of this psalm asks God to get him out of this predicament he's in in 19-21

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Then in v 22 (it would appear at least) that he's looking forward to a time when God finally rescues him

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.

How does v 22 apply to Jesus on the cross...he's about to die. How will he perform these actions?

They partially solved it by inventing ~~The World's Greatest Historian~~ Luke and John, whose Magical Zombie Jesus didn't quote Psalm 22 at all. I think they probably just forgot to edit Mark and Matty and then had to make up a whole heap of nonsense to cover their oversight by coming up with some mumbo jumbo about the seven sayings representing events having come full circle with Jesus repeating the words of King David . . .

Meh.

Wait for DOC's explanation. It'll be much, much funnier than mine.

Welcome to the Forum.

Agatha · 18th June 2012, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by mjt532

Originally Posted by Agatha

Piercing my hands and feet is reminiscent of how the crucifixion is portrayed (though not how crucifixion was actually performed by the Romans).

Do you have a reference for this? My understanding is that there was no set 'formula' for crucifixion...genitals, hands and feet, upside down, with or without a stand....whatever they felt like doing. Of course, we only have one piece of physical evidence, and that's a spike through the heelbone.

I don't offhand, only my own understanding that if nails were used (and iron was in short supply), then the wrist or forearm was pierced rather than the hand. I'm happy to defer to anyone's greater knowledge; the piercing bit is still a mistranslation of the "like a lion, my hands and feet" sentence fragment.

dafydd · 18th June 2012, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22;

A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?
12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

ETA added bold

That is not a prophecy Doc, just some gibberish from the holey babble.

Fast Eddie B · 18th June 2012, 04:14 AM

A bit far afield, but...

...on the DVD of "The Last Temptation Of Christ", I think there's an "extra" that goes into how Scorcese researched the crucifixion scene in order to get the details right.

Pretty interesting, IIRC.

DOC · 18th June 2012, 08:40 PM

Here is an article I came across. For the record Egypt has had a president for many years recently.

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true."

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

Akhenaten · 18th June 2012, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Here is an article I came across. For the record Egypt has had a president for many years recently.

You don't say.

Originally Posted by DOC

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)."

my embiggening

Was there ever another Prince in Egypt after the Prophecy, DOC?

If there was, then the prophecy has failed.

Originally Posted by DOC

Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian!

O rly?

Even if that was true, and it isn't, the prophecy said "there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt". Even if they came from Mars, the prophecy is still broken.

Originally Posted by DOC

This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true.

Except that it's absolutely nothing like that.

Fail.

Again.

7th June 2012, 08:51 AM	#3081
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,550	Originally Posted by joobz This is why I read DOC threads. It is for posts like this. Thank you! It was awesome. I have a prediction, however: DOC will not read it. He will, however, claim that it is wrong because it took you too many words to make your argument or He will simply say that he hopes others aren't convinced by your post simply because it sounds impressive..... DOC doesn't like to learn and resents education. Or He will say, "Well, that's your opinion, but Young's Literal translation says 'may.' I'm just putting the information out there for people to see." He will fail to realize that people actually study languages and the way they work (and that not all languages work like modern English). Inexperienced translators often toss in a "may" whenever they encounter the subjunctive in another language. Sometimes that is the closest you can come to expressing the subjunctive in English. In other instances, as ddt has shown, it's both awkward and completely inappropriate. But, hey, that's just my opinion.
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,550	__________________ skepticalhumanities.com virtualskeptics.com

7th June 2012, 10:35 AM	#3086
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,133	Originally Posted by I Ratant . How come it is that this holiest of books is not divinely protected from mis-translations? Ya'd think Sky Daddy would see to that... He notices sparrows dropping hither and yon after all. Yes; this is particularly absurd when you consider the Christian apologetic that not only were the inspired authors divinely protected from error, but that the various church councils deciding which books to include in the canon and which to exclude were likewise under divine guidance. So, God protected the authors of the holy books from error, the church councils from error, but forgot about protecting copyists and translators. Of course Protestants assume that Catholics were less divinely guided, and the Catholics return the favor.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,133

7th June 2012, 11:18 AM	#3087
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,327	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Yes; this is particularly absurd when you consider the Christian apologetic that not only were the inspired authors divinely protected from error, but that the various church councils deciding which books to include in the canon and which to exclude were likewise under divine guidance. So, God protected the authors of the holy books from error, the church councils from error, but forgot about protecting copyists and translators. Of course Protestants assume that Catholics were less divinely guided, and the Catholics return the favor. So what is then actually the correct and divinely inspired text of the NT? The Textus Receptus, on which KJV was based? Yeah right, with Erasmus back-translating verses in Revelations from the Vulgate. Westcott-Hort? Nestle-Aland? And why is so much effort needed by so many bright scholars to try and reconstruct the original text? DOC, inquiring minds want to know!
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

10th June 2012, 02:46 AM	#3088
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,097	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled? ETA: not deleted.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 10th June 2012 at 03:02 AM.

10th June 2012, 02:56 AM	#3089
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,752	I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. ETA added bold
	Last edited by DOC; 10th June 2012 at 04:55 AM.

7th June 2012, 09:45 AM	#3082
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by zooterkin Do you think DOC is fooling more than one person? . It is a form of literary self-abuse he engages in.

7th June 2012, 09:47 AM	#3083
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by pakeha Why must you assume that, DOC? Do you really not see that choosing translations of the bible à la carte weakens any assertion that there are, indeed, ANY fulfilled prophecies in it? ... . How come it is that this holiest of books is not divinely protected from mis-translations? Ya'd think Sky Daddy would see to that... He notices sparrows dropping hither and yon after all.

7th June 2012, 09:50 AM	#3084
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by ddt Fail. If you want to look at all the evidence, you look at the original. Why don't you put in some effort to learn Koine Greek? It really is not hard to read the NT, certainly compared to, say, Homer or Aeschylos. . I wanna see the real original! It will appear to be unreadable, but due to the guidance of the heavenly process, it will be readable by all in their languages. A simul-print, as it were.

7th June 2012, 10:06 AM	#3085
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,135	Originally Posted by Akhenaten http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/Hos...OCDOLLARS2.jpg Don't spend it all on muffins. Thanks!! Originally Posted by Akhenaten Don't spend it all on muffins. Nope. Apple turnover. With custard. Originally Posted by DOC Then you have to wonder why Iran, a Muslim theocracy, has the world's worse drug addiction problem,<snip> What has this to do with your inability to show a fufilled babble "prophecy"? Stop it.

10th June 2012, 03:01 AM	#3090
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,097	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th June 2012, 03:01 AM	#3091
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

10th June 2012, 04:20 AM	#3092
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,327	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; Why Young? I thought we were done with this "literal" stuff. Originally Posted by DOC A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? So Mark copied those words. Any evidence Jesus actually said them? The three other ~~fairy tale~~ gospel writers had other last words. Originally Posted by DOC 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. What "prophecy" is in there? Originally Posted by DOC 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. Piercing a literal translation? Cue laughing dog. This Hebrew text has כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י which means "to dig". See Strong's concordance, it is mostly used in the combination "digging a pit" or "digging a well". This apart from the fact that many MSS have a different word here meaning "like a lion". The Septuagint Greek text - which most likely the NT writers knew and consulted - has ώρυξαν which also means "to dig". See again Strong's concordance, this word again is used for digging things into the ground. So, to read "piercing" into this word is wishful thinking at best. And then, of course, it cannot refer to the crucifixion: the nails go through the wrists and ankles, not through the hands and feet. Originally Posted by DOC 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. Let's see that in the Greek version: Quote: διεμερίσαντο τα ιμάτιά μου εαυτοίς και επί τον ιματισμόν μου έβαλον κλήρον And then the Greek of Mark 15:24: Quote: καὶ διαμερίζονται τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτου, βάλλοντες κλῆρον ἐπ' αὐτα It's almost as if Mark used exactly the same verbs and nouns, changed the tense and "my" into "his" and voilà, we have a prophecy fulfilled! ETA: Counts of prophecy fulfilled: 0 Counts of blatant copying: 1 Counts of wilfull lying by our resident apologist: 1
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group Last edited by ddt; 10th June 2012 at 04:23 AM.

10th June 2012, 04:23 AM	#3093
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Pither Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,682	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; What makes you think you're entitled to move on to new failures when you haven't addressed your previous ones? To tell the truth, I don't know why you were ever allowed to move forward to Isiah. Well. not on my watch, you don't. Let's have another look at the very first prophocy mentioned in this long-running fiasco, all the way back in post #4 in January, 2008. Originally Posted by DOC Well here are 3 out of the 13 he listed. He also said about 2000 out of 2500 have been fulfilled so far. (1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. <snip> Now I don't want you to go into any detail in defence of the utter balderdash that this prophecy was fulfilled - you've got the whole of TTTWND in which to fail at that. I just want you to explain what the odds were on this event and how they were calculated. Then we'll move forward logically from there, rather than jump about at random for no other reason than that you've been backed into a corner while trying to explain that a large modern city in Lebanon isn't actually there, or why Jerusalem is full of Muslims. ETA: Handwave and Wilbur your way out of ddt's post first, and then we'll head back to the future.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 10th June 2012 at 04:26 AM.

10th June 2012, 04:35 AM	#3094
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Pither Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,682	Originally Posted by DOC A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, Since we're going to spend a little time on this anyway, I may as well ask. Why is a smooshed-up version of the first verse of the Psalm tacked on to the beginning of the 12th. Given that this was your second attempt to post this latest load of fail are we to assume that as well as being unable to use the search function or to follow internal links you're now having trouble with the clipboard? Maybe there is a God, and maybe he's trying to tell you something.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

10th June 2012, 05:09 AM	#3095
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Probably not, since he likes to make a big song and dance about ignoring people, with an announcement about how long the 'punishment' will last and that sort of thing. He refers to adding people to his ignore list as 'blocking' them and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that he believes he actually has the power to stop people from posting in 'his' threads. He will do anything except admit that there are no fulfilled prophecies. All he has done in this thread is prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

10th June 2012, 06:46 AM	#3096
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,503	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 Yes. We've determined that it represents a failed prophecy. Let's see how your new one goes. Originally Posted by DOC A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. ETA added bold What is it I'm supposed to be seeing?
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

10th June 2012, 07:41 AM	#3097
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,097	Originally Posted by joobz Let's see how your new one goes. Originally Posted by DOC A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. ETA added bold What is it I'm supposed to be seeing? Something a bit like a Nostradamus quatrain, but with more lines.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 10th June 2012 at 07:43 AM.

10th June 2012, 08:56 AM	#3098
Agatha Winking at the Moon Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: UK Posts: 4,225	It's okay folks, I've been studying DOCish in my spare time and I believe I can fill in a few stray blanks for you. It's all about the bolded bits. In Psalm 22, some of the words are similar to the language used in the Gospels to describe the crucifixion and the resurrection; for example the "My God why hast thou forsaken me" mirrors the last words of Jesus as reported by the author of Matthew and Mark (except for the loud cry), and of course this report is contradicted by the authors of Luke* and John. Then, the next bit bolded mentions being poured out like water, and in the Gospel of John, the author reports that blood and water poured out when the soldier pierced Jesus' side. Of course, that's not mentioned in the other three Gospels. Piercing my hands and feet is reminiscent of how the crucifixion is portrayed (though not how crucifixion was actually performed by the Romans). Apportioning garments is a nod to the verses in Luke, Mark and John where the soldiers divide Jesus' clothes amongst themselves. Luke has the soldiers playing dice but John says they divided them equally - perhaps they all threw the same number. The author of Matthew must have forgotten that bit. And so, Ps22 is seen to be prophetic by reference to the Gospels. It's almost like the authors of the NT had the OT to read, just to ensure they'd make the NT fulfil some OT prophecies. Once again, it's the bible is true because the bible says it's true, and the bible is true because... For those of us not in thrall to the Boys Big Book of Campfire Fairy Tales, vol I and II, it's meaningless wordplay. *That's Luke the talented historian, the one who doesn't have Jesus' last words match Ps 22.
	__________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff. Last edited by Agatha; 10th June 2012 at 09:06 AM.

10th June 2012, 09:05 AM	#3099
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,550	Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 but I don't think we talked much of Psalm 22 in here. Here are some of the verses using Young's literal translation of Psalm 22; A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. ETA added bold Does anyone else hear this in the voice of Yoda?
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,550	__________________ skepticalhumanities.com virtualskeptics.com

10th June 2012, 09:09 AM	#3100
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 3,642	Originally Posted by joobz Originally Posted by DOC I know we talked of Isaiah 53 Yes. We've determined that it represents a failed prophecy. Let's see how your new one goes. Originally Posted by DOC A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring? 12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me, 13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring. 14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet. 17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me, 18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall. ETA added bold What is it I'm supposed to be seeing? What you're supposed to see is that it is self-evident that the prophecy has been fulfilled. The parts DOC has bolded are re-referenced in the gospels. The first part of verse 14 ("As waters I have been poured out", and usually extended to the phrase "and separated themselves have all my bones") and the last part of verse 16 ("Piercing my hands and my feet") are viewed by Christians as a description of the crucifixion. As for verse 18 ("They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall."), all four gospel writer have a line that reads, "And the soldiers cast lots for his garments." The writer of John goes further, explaining that one of Jesus' garments was a single woven cloth that the soldiers were reluctant to tear, so they cast lots for it. Christian like DOC believe that if it was written in the Bible, it must be true. Skeptics start from a default position of "it might be true, but let's take a look at all the available evidence to see if that's the case." And here's where things start to break down. The writers of Matthew, Mark and Luke all appear to have used the same source material; if that source got it wrong about the casting of lots, then all three accounts are suspect. As for John, people have questioned whether Jesus, a tradesman turned itinerant preacher, would have owned a robe that seems to be available only to the priestly class. Skeptics also see data mining: there's a lot of material in the Old Testament that could be searched and then stretched to fit the events around the life of Jesus as they saw fit. In addition to the mining, there was also a lot of cherry picking; I suspect a lot of material that pertained to the Messiah was simply ignored if it didn't fit their narrative of Jesus.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

10th June 2012, 09:16 AM	#3101
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,982	Originally Posted by joobz Yes. We've determined that it represents a failed prophecy. Let's see how your new one goes. What is it I'm supposed to be seeing? I don't know. But Psalms 22:16 can be made to say "pierce my hands and feet" only by translating the Greek version, the Septuagint, because the Quote: Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text (according to the NIV commentary) give "pierce me, like a lion". The Greek version seems to be garbled here. As to v18, it is an example of poetic parallelism. The apportioning of garments and casting lots for clothing are two statements of the same thing. This very common Hebrew poetic device was not appreciated by the Greek-speaking author of the Gospel According to John. He understands it to refer to two processes, a division, and then a casting of lots. To make sense of this, he invents an indivisible article of clothing, "out of whole cloth" one might say. See John 19 (NIV) Quote: 23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. 24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,“They divided my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.” So this is what the soldiers did. Manifestly this is not the fulfilment of a prophecy but the invention of events resembling a prophecy which the author wants to show has been fulfilled. His "fulfilment" included the "fulfilment" of something he misunderstood, that wasn't in the prophecy as written, and also the "fulfillment" of something found only in some Greek versions, but not in the Hebrew. Other examples abound, of the "fulfillment" of misunderstood or mistranslated Hebrew prophecies. Jesus' "virgin" mother; Matthew's description of Jesus riding into Jerusalem on two donkeys, and so on.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,982	Last edited by Craig B; 10th June 2012 at 09:19 AM.

10th June 2012, 01:46 PM	#3102
Rincewind Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,162	Originally Posted by Lucian Does anyone else hear this in the voice of Yoda? Aha! That explains the Gospel according to Sir Luke Skywalker...

10th June 2012, 02:10 PM	#3103
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Pither Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,682	Originally Posted by Rincewind Aha! That explains the Gospel according to Sir Luke Skywalker...
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

10th June 2012, 05:38 PM	#3104
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,097	Originally Posted by Agatha It's okay folks, I've been studying DOCish in my spare time and I believe I can fill in a few stray blanks for you. It's all about the bolded bits. In Psalm 22, some of the words are similar to the language used in the Gospels to describe the crucifixion and the resurrection... I can't imagine how that could have happened without divine intervention, unless the gospel writers and editors were somehow trying to make their story fit the prophecy.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

11th June 2012, 12:13 AM	#3105
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by Mojo Do you have any evidence that this 'prophecy' has been fulfilled? ETA: not deleted. "Is this even a prophecy at all?" I think is the more accurate question here.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

11th June 2012, 03:50 AM	#3106
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Mudcat "Is this even a prophecy at all?" I think is the more accurate question here. Doc calls it a prophecy, so we will use Docspeak.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

11th June 2012, 04:02 AM	#3107
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,327	Originally Posted by Craig B I don't know. But Psalms 22:16 can be made to say "pierce my hands and feet" only by translating the Greek version, the Septuagint, because the Originally Posted by NIV Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text (according to the NIV commentary) give "pierce me, like a lion". (nitpick) It's actually the Hebrew word for "pierce" that reads "like a lion" in those versions; the footnote refers to the word "pierce". So it would read: "like a lion, my hands and feet". That footnote is about the word "pierce". Originally Posted by Craig B The Greek version seems to be garbled here. To be fair, most commentators have problems with the "lion" version as well: for one, it lacks a verb.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group Last edited by ddt; 11th June 2012 at 04:11 AM.

11th June 2012, 04:20 AM	#3108
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by ddt (nitpick) To be fair, most commentators have problems with the "lion" version as well: for one, it lacks a verb. You're right! That sentence no verb!

11th June 2012, 05:43 AM	#3109
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,982	Originally Posted by ddt (nitpick) It's actually the Hebrew word for "pierce" that reads "like a lion" in those versions; the footnote refers to the word "pierce". So it would read: "like a lion, my hands and feet". That footnote is about the word "pierce". To be fair, most commentators have problems with the "lion" version as well: for one, it lacks a verb. Thanks. I thought it was as you have stated, but I checked with the notes to the NIV in Biblegateway and misidentified the word being referred to. It's been mildly troubling me today, so thanks for the clarification. I should in this case have trusted my own memory.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,982

11th June 2012, 05:59 AM	#3110
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,327	Originally Posted by Craig B Thanks. I thought it was as you have stated, but I checked with the notes to the NIV in Biblegateway and misidentified the word being referred to. It's been mildly troubling me today, so thanks for the clarification. I should in this case have trusted my own memory. Sorry then that I didn't respond earlier; I spotted it right away. I had already mentioned it in this post. Of course, no answer - not even a single reaction - will be forthcoming from DOC. Not in a day, not in a week, not in a thousand posts. How's that for prophecy?
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11th June 2012, 09:45 AM	#3112
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B You're right! That sentence no verb! . A verb! A Verb! My unending faithfulness for a verb!

17th June 2012, 10:14 PM	#3113
mjt532 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 13	Psalm 22 Just curious what Christians do with v 22 The subject of this psalm asks God to get him out of this predicament he's in in 19-21 19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. Then in v 22 (it would appear at least) that he's looking forward to a time when God finally rescues him 22 I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you. How does v 22 apply to Jesus on the cross...he's about to die. How will he perform these actions?
mjt532 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 13

17th June 2012, 10:22 PM	#3114
mjt532 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 13	[quote=Agatha;8358803 Piercing my hands and feet is reminiscent of how the crucifixion is portrayed (though not how crucifixion was actually performed by the Romans). QUOTE] Do you have a reference for this? My understanding is that there was no set 'formula' for crucifixion...genitals, hands and feet, upside down, with or without a stand....whatever they felt like doing. Of course, we only have one piece of physical evidence, and that's a spike through the heelbone.
mjt532 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 13

17th June 2012, 10:33 PM	#3115
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Pither Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,682	Originally Posted by mjt532 Just curious what Christians do with v 22 The subject of this psalm asks God to get him out of this predicament he's in in 19-21 19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. Then in v 22 (it would appear at least) that he's looking forward to a time when God finally rescues him 22 I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you. How does v 22 apply to Jesus on the cross...he's about to die. How will he perform these actions? They partially solved it by inventing ~~The World's Greatest Historian~~ Luke and John, whose Magical Zombie Jesus didn't quote Psalm 22 at all. I think they probably just forgot to edit Mark and Matty and then had to make up a whole heap of nonsense to cover their oversight by coming up with some mumbo jumbo about the seven sayings representing events having come full circle with Jesus repeating the words of King David . . . Meh. Wait for DOC's explanation. It'll be much, much funnier than mine. Welcome to the Forum.
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18th June 2012, 03:17 AM	#3116
Agatha Winking at the Moon Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: UK Posts: 4,225	Originally Posted by mjt532 Originally Posted by Agatha Piercing my hands and feet is reminiscent of how the crucifixion is portrayed (though not how crucifixion was actually performed by the Romans). Do you have a reference for this? My understanding is that there was no set 'formula' for crucifixion...genitals, hands and feet, upside down, with or without a stand....whatever they felt like doing. Of course, we only have one piece of physical evidence, and that's a spike through the heelbone. I don't offhand, only my own understanding that if nails were used (and iron was in short supply), then the wrist or forearm was pierced rather than the hand. I'm happy to defer to anyone's greater knowledge; the piercing bit is still a mistranslation of the "like a lion, my hands and feet" sentence fragment.
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