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Akhenaten · 19th June 2012, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Since we've already demonstrated that the prophecies touted by DOC as being true are, in fact, false; and since DOc refuses to either acknowledge this, to discuss these prophecies further or to provide any other examples of fulfilled Bible prophecy; why not let this thread die?

1) to give Akhenaten an excuse to photoshop
2) to discuss some tangential issues that come up and might be interesting
3) to exercise in spotting fallacies
4) not to let DOC get away with his false claims

Yep.

Akhenaten · 19th June 2012, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Tyre in the New Testament?

Who the hell did the continuity checking on this story?

Oh my. What sort of apologetic sophistry could explain that?

Since the story was passed on by word of mouth (due to the non-existence of paper in those days) someone might of have misheard a reference to 'Tiber' as 'Tyre'.
The authors might of used a reference to a non-existent place because they might of not wanted to use a real place name in those days when ~~writing~~ talking about your beliefs could get you turned into a candle at one of Sir Nero's parties.
The authors insert anomolies like this into the Bible all the time because such inconsistencies prove that the story isn't fiction, which didn't exist in those days anyway.
Since the references to Tyre don't appear in the writings of the World's Greatest Historian™, Sir Luke, it's obviously a transcription error.
So you don't believe in the story that inspired Sir Thomas Jefferson to create his own book of bible teachings.
Google Translate says that Tyre is actually the Matabele name for Cæsarea.

DOC · 19th June 2012, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

The Ptolomy dynasty DID have power, DOC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

They also pre-date the Roman empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. From your source:

"The Ptolemaic dynasty, (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, sometimes also known as the Lagids or Lagides, Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, from the name of Ptolemy I's father, Lagus) was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period. Their rule lasted for 275 years, from 305 BC to 30 BC. They were the last dynasty of ancient Egypt.

Ptolemy, one of the six somatophylakes (bodyguards) who served as Alexander the Great's generals and deputies, was appointed satrap of Egypt after Alexander's death in 323 BC. In 305 BC, he declared himself King Ptolemy I, later known as "Soter" (saviour). The Egyptians soon accepted the Ptolemies as the successors to the pharaohs of independent Egypt. Ptolemy's family ruled Egypt until the Roman conquest of 30 BC."

____

Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy:

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true."

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

Akhenaten · 19th June 2012, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Originally Posted by pakeha

The Ptolomy dynasty DID have power, DOC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

They also pre-date the Roman empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army.

And is that what the prophecy foretold, DOC?

Let's see . . .

Ezekiel 30:10

Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

So . . .

Mudcat · 19th June 2012, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Since the story was passed on by word of mouth (due to the non-existence of paper in those days) someone might of have misheard a reference to 'Tiber' as 'Tyre'.

While there wasn't such thing as paper until 104 CE, papyrus was already available since the third century BCE well until the twelfth century CE and almost certainly was available to Rome during the supposed time of Jesus.

Of course, biblical literalists like to ignore this little heard thing called history... Not that it does them any good.

Edited to add: just re read the Quoted bit, sorry for the confusion. When was Tyre supposed to cease to exist?

Akhenaten · 19th June 2012, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy:

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)."

<blathersnip>

Apart from its being wrong, the blatant cherry-picking in this quote has already been pointed out to you more than once, DOC. Why do you persist?

This is what Ezekiel 30:13 actually says:

Thus saith the Lord God; I will also destroy the idols, and I will cause their images to cease out of Noph; and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt: and I will put a fear in the land of Egypt.

I was generous before in describing the falsity of only quoting half a verse. The truth is that it's only quarter of a verse.

Fail.

Akhenaten · 19th June 2012, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

While there wasn't such thing as paper until 104 CE, papyrus was already available since the third century BCE well until the twelfth century CE and almost certainly was available to Rome during the supposed time of Jesus.

Yes, I know. Followers of TTTWND will recognise this as a nod to DOC's contention that there was no paper in those days.

I should perhaps have used [sarcasm] tags.

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Of course, biblical literalists like to ignore this little heard thing called history... Not that it does them any good.

Quite.

DOC · 20th June 2012, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

And is that what the prophecy foretold, DOC?

Let's see . . .

Ezekiel 30:10

Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

So . . .

Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says:

Eze 30:10 Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have caused the multitude of Egypt to cease, By the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon,

Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded.

Eze 30:12 And I have made floods a dry place, And I have sold the land into the hand of evil doers, And I have made desolate the land, And its fulness, by the hand of strangers, I, Jehovah, have spoken.
___

Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded.

Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles.

Mudcat · 20th June 2012, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Perhaps I should have used sarcasm tags.

A link to him making that claim would have help me get the reference. Not that I doubt your claim that he made that claim. I seen him make that claim. I called him out making that claim.

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Originally Posted by pakeha

The Ptolomy dynasty DID have power, DOC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

They also pre-date the Roman empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. From your source:

"The Ptolemaic dynasty, (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, sometimes also known as the Lagids or Lagides, Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, from the name of Ptolemy I's father, Lagus) was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period. Their rule lasted for 275 years, from 305 BC to 30 BC. They were the last dynasty of ancient Egypt.

Ptolemy, one of the six somatophylakes (bodyguards) who served as Alexander the Great's generals and deputies, was appointed satrap of Egypt after Alexander's death in 323 BC. In 305 BC, he declared himself King Ptolemy I, later known as "Soter" (saviour). The Egyptians soon accepted the Ptolemies as the successors to the pharaohs of independent Egypt. Ptolemy's family ruled Egypt until the Roman conquest of 30 BC."

____

Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy:

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true."

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

I know you can spot the obvious problem, DOC, but you can't admit it, can you?

And don't bring up the garbage about "in" or "of" meaning "born in". It's childish, it's wrong and it's irrelevant. As has been pointed out, all of the Ptolemies but Ptolemy I were born in Egypt.

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

A link to him making that claim would have help me get the reference. Not that I doubt your claim that he made that claim. I seen him make that claim. I called him out making that claim.

Originally Posted by DOC

Originally Posted by Fiona

One example: you said there was no paper
A second: you said there was no fiction

Both have been comprehensively shown to be wrong.

There was no paper during biblical times in Palestine, if you think there was what is your source. The paper industry really didn't get big until around the 8th century in Bagdad according to the World Book Ency. And the 1st paper in China around 2000 years ago wasn't even used for writing because it was too rough, also from the World Book.

And name one novel in Palestine during that time that was specifically written as a fictional novel and what is your source that it was specifically written as a fictional novel.

my bolding

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

And is that what the prophecy foretold, DOC?

Let's see . . .

Ezekiel 30:10

Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

So . . .

Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says:

Eze 30:10 Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have caused the multitude of Egypt to cease, By the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon,

<drivel>

Are you unable to see, despite my big red letters and your own quoting of this redundant translation, that the prophecy of Ezekiel names Nebuchadrazzer as the conqueror of Egypt and that the takeover by the Greeks some 250 years later does not in any way shape or form constitute fulfillment of that prophecy?

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says:

<snip>

Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded.

<snip>

Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded.

DOC, it boots you nothing to provide as many translations of the prophecy as you like. We know it was made, and we know what it says. There is no dispute involved in that part.

And your own baseless speculations about what is "certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar" are completely irrelevant.

What you have utterly failed to do, and what you are now apparently trying to completely ignore as being an issue, is provide evidence that Nebuchadnezzar actually invaded Egypt.

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

<drivel>

Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles.

O rly?

OMG, it's a dustbowl!

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

<drivel>

Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles.

So . . .

You simultaneously claim that the prophecy actually says that there will be "floods in a dry place" and that the alleged drying up of the Nile would be a fulfillment of this prophecy.

'Fail' is far too short a word to describe your efforts here.

Mudcat · 20th June 2012, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

my bolding

I remember reading that spectacular fail.

DOC's claims are no different then autonomic writing at this point.

Craig B · 20th June 2012, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army.

Their ancestors came from Greece, but they were princes of Egypt. That country had princes, and they ruled Egypt, while other princes, also descended from people of Greek origin, ruled, for example, Syria and Persia. following Alexander's conquests this was the situation all over the Near East. Egypt was in no way unusual in this regard.

Address the point I have made: the present British royal family is of German origin, three hundred years ago. Does that mean there are no princes of Britain? There are too many, even!

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

I remember reading that spectacular fail.

DOC's claims are no different then autonomic writing at this point.

Yep.

Also, I just noticed another question you asked earlier:

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Edited to add: just re read the Quoted bit, sorry for the confusion. When was Tyre supposed to cease to exist?

Well, Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to the place for 13 years from 585–572 BCE, so I suppose Sir Zeke assumed it would be around then.

In reality, the siege ended when the Tyreans got sick of the whole thing and just asked Nebuchadnezzar what it would take to make him go away.

Egypt was supposed (by DOC and Sir Zeke) to have been destroyed some years after that, with the chief piece of evidence for the timing of the trip being a clay tablet now in the British Museum which states that: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim*"

I assume that's a reference to his 37th reignal year and that would date the campaign to about 568 BCE. His 37th being alive year was 597 BCE, which is before the Tyre business and although it's true that he had an unsuccessful attempt against Egypt in 601 BCE that obviously didn't end in the destruction that Sir Zeke was hoping for, otherwise the second attempt wouldn't have been made at all.

* Mitzraim was the reedcutters' name for Egypt.

ddt · 20th June 2012, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. From your source:

"The Ptolemaic dynasty, (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, sometimes also known as the Lagids or Lagides, Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, from the name of Ptolemy I's father, Lagus) was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period. Their rule lasted for 275 years, from 305 BC to 30 BC. They were the last dynasty of ancient Egypt.

Ptolemy, one of the six somatophylakes (bodyguards) who served as Alexander the Great's generals and deputies, was appointed satrap of Egypt after Alexander's death in 323 BC. In 305 BC, he declared himself King Ptolemy I, later known as "Soter" (saviour). The Egyptians soon accepted the Ptolemies as the successors to the pharaohs of independent Egypt. Ptolemy's family ruled Egypt until the Roman conquest of 30 BC."

____

Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy:

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true."

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

DOC, your "source" lies as has been pointed out repeatedly, and you happily lie with it. If you argue that the Ptolemies were not Egyptian, then the British monarchs are not British and no American president is American because ultimately, all inhabitants from America came from other countries; then we're all African.

Oh and look at my post #3179. Your source and you also forgot about Fuad and Farouk between 1922 and 1956.

dafydd · 20th June 2012, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

DOC, your "source" lies as has been pointed out repeatedly, and you happily lie with it. If you argue that the Ptolemies were not Egyptian, then the British monarchs are not British and no American president is American because ultimately, all inhabitants from America came from other countries; then we're all African.

Oh and look at my post #3179. Your source and you also forgot about Fuad and Farouk between 1922 and 1956.

That reminds me of a pub quiz that I once attended. One team answered the question ''Who was the last king of Egypt?'' with ''Tutankhamen.''

Mudcat · 20th June 2012, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Well, Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to the place for 13 years from 585–572 BCE, so I suppose Sir Zeke assumed it would be around then.

In reality, the siege ended when the Tyreans got sick of the whole thing and just asked Nebuchadnezzar what it would take to make him go away.

Egypt was supposed (by DOC and Sir Zeke) to have been destroyed some years after that, with the chief piece of evidence for the timing of the trip being a clay tablet now in the British Museum which states that: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim*"

I assume that's a reference to his 37th reignal year and that would date the campaign to about 568 BCE. His 37th being alive year was 597 BCE, which is before the Tyre business and although it's true that he had an unsuccessful attempt against Egypt in 601 BCE that obviously didn't end in the destruction that Sir Zeke was hoping for, otherwise the second attempt wouldn't have been made at all.

* Mitzraim was the reedcutters' name for Egypt.

Thank you, for sharing.

For anyone interested, I did a little digging and found that the people of that region and time would still have been using animal skins to keep records. A practice going back a full two thousand years earlier than either event.

Elizabeth I · 20th June 2012, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

Oh and look at my post #3179. Your source and you also forgot about Fuad and Farouk between 1922 and 1956.

[doc mode]Yes, but they were kings, not princes.[/doc mode]

Rincewind · 20th June 2012, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Egypt was supposed (by DOC and Sir Zeke) to have been destroyed some years after that, with the chief piece of evidence for the timing of the trip being a clay tablet now in the British Museum which states that: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim*"

* Mitzraim was the reedcutters' name for Egypt.

Sounds like he was going on his holidays....

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Rincewind

Sounds like he was going on his holidays....

He'd probably heard about the spectacular new floor show at The Sands . . .

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

When or where could you compare
High life
To the life you find here?

Not since Nineveh, not since Tyre,
Not since Babylon turned to mire
For a sin of a kind we never mind here!

Where or when ever again
Low life
Like the life well known here?

Not since Nineveh, not since Sidon,
Not since Jericho started slidin'
From the din of a horn that's never blown here!

Our palaces are gaudier,
Our alley ways are bawdier,
Our princes more autocratic here,
Our beggars more distinctly aromatic here!

Where could you ever pursue
Your life
With the zeal we feel here?

Not since Babylon read that writing,
Not since Jericho heard that trumpet,
Not since Nebuchadnezzar's hanging garden went to pot,
Not since that village near Gomorrah got
Too hot
For Lot!
No, not since Nineveh,
Not since Ninevaheh-eh, eh-eh!

Nineveh!

zooterkin · 20th June 2012, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

He'd probably heard about the spectacular new floor show at The Sands . . .

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

When or where could you compare
High life
To the life you find here?

Not since Nineveh, not since Tyre,
Not since Babylon turned to mire
For a sin of a kind we never mind here!

Where or when ever again
Low life
Like the life well known here?

Not since Jericho started slidin'
From the din of a horn that's never blown here!

Our palaces are gaudier,
Our alley ways are bawdier,
Our princes more autocratic here,
Our beggars more distinctly aromatic here!

Where could you ever pursue
Your life
With the zeal we feel here?

Not since Babylon read that writing,
Not since Jericho heard that trumpet,
Not since Nebuchadnezzar's hanging garden went to pot,
Not since that village near Gomorrah got
Too hot
For Lot!
No, not since Nineveh,
Not since Ninevaheh-eh, eh-eh!

Nineveh!

Hey, it's like magic, I quote the post, and the lyrics appear...

Without those, I was half expecting this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 05:32 AM

That was probably a more obvious choice, but . . . Barbara Eden.

zooterkin · 20th June 2012, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

That was probably a more obvious choice, but . . . Barbara Eden.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...6f980c282e.gif

Oh, indeed. Yet another thing I've gained from this thread.

joobz · 20th June 2012, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded.
....

Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded,

No it doesn't.

It says "filled the land [with] the wounded."
That means [with] is an insertion by the author.
The literal translation according to Young's is

"Filled the land the wounded."

Originally Posted by DOC

which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded.

it is also certain to happen in any war.
regardless of who wins or loses.

Originally Posted by DOC

Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile.

Yup. It is more ambiguous and open to interpretation. I can see why you like it.

Originally Posted by DOC

On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles.

I see.
So the text refers to the Nile and it doesn't refer to the nile.
What ever makes it work for you?
that sounds like a concrete prophecy and not simply post hoc retrofitting of events to the ramblings on some page.

TimCallahan · 20th June 2012, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

. . . (major snip) . . .

Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy:

From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy"

"Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true."

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

Nonsense. As many of us have pointed out to you, Pharaoh Amasis survived Nebuchadnezzars attempt to invade Egypt. Not only that, after the Persian conquest of Egypt, the Egyptians revolted, successfully drove out the Persians and instituted a new native dynasty. Here are the native Egyptian pharaohs of the 30th. dynasty who ruled at that time (source: Peter A. Clayton Chronicle of the Pharaohs 1994 Thames and Hudson, p. 201):

Amyrtaeus 404 - 399 BCE
Nepherites 399 - 393
Hakor 393 - 380
Nectanebo I 380 - 362
Teos 362 - 360
Nectanebo II 362 - 343

In 343 the Persians reconquered Egypt and held it until 332, a period of 11 years, until Alexander the Great took it. You have arbitrarily excluded the Ptolemies because of their Greek origins, even though they ruled from Egypt. Tell me, are you willing also to exclude the 22nd. and 23d. dynasties of Egypt (945 - 757 BCE) because they were founded by Libyan invaders? If so, perhaps we should also exclude the 25th. dynasty (747 - 656), since its founders were Nubians. Of course, these dynasties preceded Ezekiel's prophecy, just as the native 30th. dynasty post-dated it.

TimCallahan · 20th June 2012, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says:

Eze 30:10 Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have caused the multitude of Egypt to cease, By the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon,

Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded.

Eze 30:12 And I have made floods a dry place, And I have sold the land into the hand of evil doers, And I have made desolate the land, And its fulness, by the hand of strangers, I, Jehovah, have spoken.
___

Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded.

Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles.

Note that, in the hilited area, it says that Nebuchadrezzar would destroy the land of Egypt. Again, as we have pointed out to you, there's no archaeological support for this. As to translating a certain word as either "killed" or "wounded", according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible ( hereafter referred to a Strong's) the word, which the KJV translates as "slain" is, in the original Hebrew, chalal, a root that means to pierce, wound, kill, pollute or profane. Such is the imprecision of Hebrew that one can play fast and loose with the translation, so long as one ignores context. In the context of Ezekiel's prophecy of Nebuchadrezzar destroying Egypt, filling the land with the slain is the more likely translation. It is no more or less "literal" than Young's version. Young's version does, however, allow you to split hairs.

I Ratant · 20th June 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

O rly?

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Cairo.jpg
OMG, it's a dustbowl!

.
That's hydrated dust.

zooterkin · 20th June 2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

That was probably a more obvious choice, but . . . Barbara Eden.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...6f980c282e.gif

... and now I'm at home and have had a chance to watch all of it, I can't help wondering if MC Hammer has seen that routine.

Belz... · 20th June 2012, 11:17 AM

Okay so... did I miss something ? Did DOC finally give us some fulfilled prophecies ?

I Ratant · 20th June 2012, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Okay so... did I miss something ? Did DOC finally give us some fulfilled prophecies ?

.
That's not the way you spell what he's given us... too many letters...
"more ....", the same'ol, same'ol.

dafydd · 20th June 2012, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Okay so... did I miss something ? Did DOC finally give us some fulfilled prophecies ?

Nope. Come back next year when the long service medals for devotion above and beyond the call of duty and valiant participation in this endless thread will be handed out by the Pharaoh.

pakeha · 20th June 2012, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. ...Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian!

Nice try, DOC.
I'll give you that.
Yes, changes of dynasty often involve armies, I'll grant you.
But tell me, don't you find it odd that after Nebu 'filled' the lad with wounded and so on, the dynasties continued?

As Tim Callahan pointed out:

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

...Pharaoh Amasis survived Nebuchadnezzars attempt to invade Egypt. Not only that, after the Persian conquest of Egypt, the Egyptians revolted, successfully drove out the Persians and instituted a new native dynasty. Here are the native Egyptian pharaohs of the 30th. dynasty who ruled at that time (source: Peter A. Clayton Chronicle of the Pharaohs 1994 Thames and Hudson, p. 201):

Amyrtaeus 404 - 399 BCE
Nepherites 399 - 393
Hakor 393 - 380
Nectanebo I 380 - 362
Teos 362 - 360
Nectanebo II 362 - 343

In 343 the Persians reconquered Egypt and held it until 332, a period of 11 years, until Alexander the Great took it. You have arbitrarily excluded the Ptolemies because of their Greek origins, even though they ruled from Egypt. Tell me, are you willing also to exclude the 22nd. and 23d. dynasties of Egypt (945 - 757 BCE) because they were founded by Libyan invaders? If so, perhaps we should also exclude the 25th. dynasty (747 - 656), since its founders were Nubians. Of course, these dynasties preceded Ezekiel's prophecy, just as the native 30th. dynasty post-dated it.

We all know what to think when a 'psychic' performer tries to back-pedal and retro-fit failed prophecies and 'messages' from the dead.
Do you really think it is becoming to do much the same here?

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel to create the illusion there are fulfilled prophecies in the bible.

Akhenaten · 20th June 2012, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

... and now I'm at home and have had a chance to watch all of it, I can't help wondering if MC Hammer has seen that routine.

Michael Jackson did . . .

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Multivac · 21st June 2012, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Nope. Come back next year when the long service medals for devotion above and beyond the call of duty and valiant participation in this endless thread will be handed out by the Pharaoh.

Cool. Will the ceremony be televised?

Mojo · 21st June 2012, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Tell me, are you willing also to exclude the 22nd. and 23d. dynasties

[Bloodnok]23rd Dynasties? My old regiment! [/Bloodnok]

dafydd · 21st June 2012, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Multivac

Cool. Will the ceremony be televised?

Of course.

19th June 2012, 08:23 PM	#3201
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by ddt Originally Posted by TimCallahan Since we've already demonstrated that the prophecies touted by DOC as being true are, in fact, false; and since DOc refuses to either acknowledge this, to discuss these prophecies further or to provide any other examples of fulfilled Bible prophecy; why not let this thread die? 1) to give Akhenaten an excuse to photoshop 2) to discuss some tangential issues that come up and might be interesting 3) to exercise in spotting fallacies 4) not to let DOC get away with his false claims Yep.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

19th June 2012, 08:53 PM	#3202
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by carlitos Originally Posted by Akhenaten Tyre in the New Testament? Who the hell did the continuity checking on this story? Oh my. What sort of apologetic sophistry could explain that? Since the story was passed on by word of mouth (due to the non-existence of paper in those days) someone might of have misheard a reference to 'Tiber' as 'Tyre'. The authors might of used a reference to a non-existent place because they might of not wanted to use a real place name in those days when ~~writing~~ talking about your beliefs could get you turned into a candle at one of Sir Nero's parties. The authors insert anomolies like this into the Bible all the time because such inconsistencies prove that the story isn't fiction, which didn't exist in those days anyway. Since the references to Tyre don't appear in the writings of the World's Greatest Historian™, Sir Luke, it's obviously a transcription error. So you don't believe in the story that inspired Sir Thomas Jefferson to create his own book of bible teachings. Google Translate says that Tyre is actually the Matabele name for Cæsarea.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 19th June 2012 at 08:58 PM.

19th June 2012, 11:41 PM	#3203
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,784	Originally Posted by pakeha The Ptolomy dynasty DID have power, DOC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty They also pre-date the Roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. From your source: "The Ptolemaic dynasty, (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, sometimes also known as the Lagids or Lagides, Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, from the name of Ptolemy I's father, Lagus) was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period. Their rule lasted for 275 years, from 305 BC to 30 BC. They were the last dynasty of ancient Egypt. Ptolemy, one of the six somatophylakes (bodyguards) who served as Alexander the Great's generals and deputies, was appointed satrap of Egypt after Alexander's death in 323 BC. In 305 BC, he declared himself King Ptolemy I, later known as "Soter" (saviour). The Egyptians soon accepted the Ptolemies as the successors to the pharaohs of independent Egypt. Ptolemy's family ruled Egypt until the Roman conquest of 30 BC." ____ Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy: From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy" "Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true." http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm
	Last edited by DOC; 19th June 2012 at 11:45 PM.

19th June 2012, 11:49 PM	#3204
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC Originally Posted by pakeha The Ptolomy dynasty DID have power, DOC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty They also pre-date the Roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. And is that what the prophecy foretold, DOC? Let's see . . . Ezekiel 30:10 Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. So . . .
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

19th June 2012, 11:51 PM	#3205
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,768	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Since the story was passed on by word of mouth (due to the non-existence of paper in those days) someone might of have misheard a reference to 'Tiber' as 'Tyre'. While there wasn't such thing as paper until 104 CE, papyrus was already available since the third century BCE well until the twelfth century CE and almost certainly was available to Rome during the supposed time of Jesus. Of course, biblical literalists like to ignore this little heard thing called history... Not that it does them any good. Edited to add: just re read the Quoted bit, sorry for the confusion. When was Tyre supposed to cease to exist?
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 19th June 2012 at 11:55 PM.

19th June 2012, 11:54 PM	#3206
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy: From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy" "Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." <blathersnip> Apart from its being wrong, the blatant cherry-picking in this quote has already been pointed out to you more than once, DOC. Why do you persist? This is what Ezekiel 30:13 actually says: Thus saith the Lord God; I will also destroy the idols, and I will cause their images to cease out of Noph; and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt: and I will put a fear in the land of Egypt. I was generous before in describing the falsity of only quoting half a verse. The truth is that it's only quarter of a verse. Fail.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 19th June 2012 at 11:59 PM.

19th June 2012, 11:58 PM	#3207
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by Mudcat While there wasn't such thing as paper until 104 CE, papyrus was already available since the third century BCE well until the twelfth century CE and almost certainly was available to Rome during the supposed time of Jesus. Yes, I know. Followers of TTTWND will recognise this as a nod to DOC's contention that there was no paper in those days. I should perhaps have used [sarcasm] tags. Originally Posted by Mudcat Of course, biblical literalists like to ignore this little heard thing called history... Not that it does them any good. Quite.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th June 2012, 12:06 AM	#3208
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 7,784	Originally Posted by Akhenaten And is that what the prophecy foretold, DOC? Let's see . . . Ezekiel 30:10 Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. So . . . Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says: Eze 30:10 Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have caused the multitude of Egypt to cease, By the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded. Eze 30:12 And I have made floods a dry place, And I have sold the land into the hand of evil doers, And I have made desolate the land, And its fulness, by the hand of strangers, I, Jehovah, have spoken. ___ Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded. Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles.
	Last edited by DOC; 20th June 2012 at 12:12 AM.

20th June 2012, 12:12 AM	#3209
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,768	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Perhaps I should have used sarcasm tags. A link to him making that claim would have help me get the reference. Not that I doubt your claim that he made that claim. I seen him make that claim. I called him out making that claim.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

20th June 2012, 12:12 AM	#3210
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC Originally Posted by pakeha The Ptolomy dynasty DID have power, DOC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty They also pre-date the Roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. From your source: "The Ptolemaic dynasty, (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, sometimes also known as the Lagids or Lagides, Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, from the name of Ptolemy I's father, Lagus) was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period. Their rule lasted for 275 years, from 305 BC to 30 BC. They were the last dynasty of ancient Egypt. Ptolemy, one of the six somatophylakes (bodyguards) who served as Alexander the Great's generals and deputies, was appointed satrap of Egypt after Alexander's death in 323 BC. In 305 BC, he declared himself King Ptolemy I, later known as "Soter" (saviour). The Egyptians soon accepted the Ptolemies as the successors to the pharaohs of independent Egypt. Ptolemy's family ruled Egypt until the Roman conquest of 30 BC." ____ Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy: From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy" "Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true." http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm I know you can spot the obvious problem, DOC, but you can't admit it, can you? And don't bring up the garbage about "in" or "of" meaning "born in". It's childish, it's wrong and it's irrelevant. As has been pointed out, all of the Ptolemies but Ptolemy I were born in Egypt.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 20th June 2012 at 01:32 AM.

20th June 2012, 12:18 AM	#3211
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by Mudcat A link to him making that claim would have help me get the reference. Not that I doubt your claim that he made that claim. I seen him make that claim. I called him out making that claim. Originally Posted by DOC Originally Posted by Fiona One example: you said there was no paper A second: you said there was no fiction Both have been comprehensively shown to be wrong. There was no paper during biblical times in Palestine, if you think there was what is your source. The paper industry really didn't get big until around the 8th century in Bagdad according to the World Book Ency. And the 1st paper in China around 2000 years ago wasn't even used for writing because it was too rough, also from the World Book. And name one novel in Palestine during that time that was specifically written as a fictional novel and what is your source that it was specifically written as a fictional novel. my bolding
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th June 2012, 12:25 AM	#3212
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC Originally Posted by Akhenaten And is that what the prophecy foretold, DOC? Let's see . . . Ezekiel 30:10 Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. So . . . Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says: Eze 30:10 Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have caused the multitude of Egypt to cease, By the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, <drivel> Are you unable to see, despite my big red letters and your own quoting of this redundant translation, that the prophecy of Ezekiel names Nebuchadrazzer as the conqueror of Egypt and that the takeover by the Greeks some 250 years later does not in any way shape or form constitute fulfillment of that prophecy?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th June 2012, 12:34 AM	#3213
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says: <snip> Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded. <snip> Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded. DOC, it boots you nothing to provide as many translations of the prophecy as you like. We know it was made, and we know what it says. There is no dispute involved in that part. And your own baseless speculations about what is "certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar" are completely irrelevant. What you have utterly failed to do, and what you are now apparently trying to completely ignore as being an issue, is provide evidence that Nebuchadnezzar actually invaded Egypt.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th June 2012, 12:38 AM	#3214
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC <drivel> Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles. O rly? OMG, it's a dustbowl!
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th June 2012, 12:44 AM	#3215
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by DOC <drivel> Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles. So . . . You simultaneously claim that the prophecy actually says that there will be "floods in a dry place" and that the alleged drying up of the Nile would be a fulfillment of this prophecy. 'Fail' is far too short a word to describe your efforts here.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th June 2012, 12:53 AM	#3216
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,768	Originally Posted by Akhenaten my bolding I remember reading that spectacular fail. DOC's claims are no different then autonomic writing at this point.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

20th June 2012, 01:00 AM	#3217
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,331	Originally Posted by DOC Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. Their ancestors came from Greece, but they were princes of Egypt. That country had princes, and they ruled Egypt, while other princes, also descended from people of Greek origin, ruled, for example, Syria and Persia. following Alexander's conquests this was the situation all over the Near East. Egypt was in no way unusual in this regard. Address the point I have made: the present British royal family is of German origin, three hundred years ago. Does that mean there are no princes of Britain? There are too many, even!
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,331

20th June 2012, 01:19 AM	#3218
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	Originally Posted by Mudcat I remember reading that spectacular fail. DOC's claims are no different then autonomic writing at this point. Yep. Also, I just noticed another question you asked earlier: Originally Posted by Mudcat Edited to add: just re read the Quoted bit, sorry for the confusion. When was Tyre supposed to cease to exist? Well, Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to the place for 13 years from 585–572 BCE, so I suppose Sir Zeke assumed it would be around then. In reality, the siege ended when the Tyreans got sick of the whole thing and just asked Nebuchadnezzar what it would take to make him go away. Egypt was supposed (by DOC and Sir Zeke) to have been destroyed some years after that, with the chief piece of evidence for the timing of the trip being a clay tablet now in the British Museum which states that: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim" I assume that's a reference to his 37th reignal year and that would date the campaign to about 568 BCE. His 37th being alive year was 597 BCE, which is before the Tyre business and although it's true that he had an unsuccessful attempt against Egypt in 601 BCE that obviously didn't end in the destruction that Sir Zeke was hoping for, otherwise the second attempt wouldn't have been made at all. Mitzraim was the reedcutters' name for Egypt.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 20th June 2012 at 01:28 AM.

20th June 2012, 01:28 AM	#3219
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by DOC Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. From your source: "The Ptolemaic dynasty, (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, sometimes also known as the Lagids or Lagides, Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, from the name of Ptolemy I's father, Lagus) was a Macedonian Greek royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt during the Hellenistic period. Their rule lasted for 275 years, from 305 BC to 30 BC. They were the last dynasty of ancient Egypt. Ptolemy, one of the six somatophylakes (bodyguards) who served as Alexander the Great's generals and deputies, was appointed satrap of Egypt after Alexander's death in 323 BC. In 305 BC, he declared himself King Ptolemy I, later known as "Soter" (saviour). The Egyptians soon accepted the Ptolemies as the successors to the pharaohs of independent Egypt. Ptolemy's family ruled Egypt until the Roman conquest of 30 BC." ____ Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy: From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy" "Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true." http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm DOC, your "source" lies as has been pointed out repeatedly, and you happily lie with it. If you argue that the Ptolemies were not Egyptian, then the British monarchs are not British and no American president is American because ultimately, all inhabitants from America came from other countries; then we're all African. Oh and look at my post #3179. Your source and you also forgot about Fuad and Farouk between 1922 and 1956.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

20th June 2012, 01:32 AM	#3220
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by ddt DOC, your "source" lies as has been pointed out repeatedly, and you happily lie with it. If you argue that the Ptolemies were not Egyptian, then the British monarchs are not British and no American president is American because ultimately, all inhabitants from America came from other countries; then we're all African. Oh and look at my post #3179. Your source and you also forgot about Fuad and Farouk between 1922 and 1956. That reminds me of a pub quiz that I once attended. One team answered the question ''Who was the last king of Egypt?'' with ''Tutankhamen.''
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

20th June 2012, 01:54 AM	#3221
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,768	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Well, Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to the place for 13 years from 585–572 BCE, so I suppose Sir Zeke assumed it would be around then. In reality, the siege ended when the Tyreans got sick of the whole thing and just asked Nebuchadnezzar what it would take to make him go away. Egypt was supposed (by DOC and Sir Zeke) to have been destroyed some years after that, with the chief piece of evidence for the timing of the trip being a clay tablet now in the British Museum which states that: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim" I assume that's a reference to his 37th reignal year and that would date the campaign to about 568 BCE. His 37th being alive year was 597 BCE, which is before the Tyre business and although it's true that he had an unsuccessful attempt against Egypt in 601 BCE that obviously didn't end in the destruction that Sir Zeke was hoping for, otherwise the second attempt wouldn't have been made at all. Mitzraim was the reedcutters' name for Egypt. Thank you, for sharing. For anyone interested, I did a little digging and found that the people of that region and time would still have been using animal skins to keep records. A practice going back a full two thousand years earlier than either event.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

20th June 2012, 04:47 AM	#3222
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,356	Originally Posted by ddt Oh and look at my post #3179. Your source and you also forgot about Fuad and Farouk between 1922 and 1956. [doc mode]Yes, but they were kings, not princes.[/doc mode]
	__________________ • There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill • Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. • My blog: Pardon me, may I ask...

20th June 2012, 04:48 AM	#3223
Rincewind Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,182	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Egypt was supposed (by DOC and Sir Zeke) to have been destroyed some years after that, with the chief piece of evidence for the timing of the trip being a clay tablet now in the British Museum which states that: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim" Mitzraim was the reedcutters' name for Egypt. Sounds like he was going on his holidays....

20th June 2012, 05:32 AM	#3226
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,749	That was probably a more obvious choice, but . . . Barbara Eden.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 20th June 2012 at 05:46 AM.

20th June 2012, 06:00 AM	#3227
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,035	Originally Posted by Akhenaten That was probably a more obvious choice, but . . . Barbara Eden. http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...6f980c282e.gif Oh, indeed. Yet another thing I've gained from this thread.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

20th June 2012, 06:59 AM	#3228
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,586	Originally Posted by DOC Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded. .... Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, No it doesn't. It says "filled the land [with] the wounded." That means [with] is an insertion by the author. The literal translation according to Young's is "Filled the land the wounded." Originally Posted by DOC which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded. it is also certain to happen in any war. regardless of who wins or loses. Originally Posted by DOC Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. Yup. It is more ambiguous and open to interpretation. I can see why you like it. Originally Posted by DOC On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles. I see. So the text refers to the Nile and it doesn't refer to the nile. What ever makes it work for you? that sounds like a concrete prophecy and not simply post hoc retrofitting of events to the ramblings on some page.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

20th June 2012, 08:03 AM	#3229
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,211	Originally Posted by DOC . . . (major snip) . . . Here is what my post #3119 said regarding the prophecy: From the article "Accuracy of Prophecy" "Speaking of Egypt, there is another prophecy also recorded in Ezekiel that I would like to share with you: "and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt (Ezek 30:13, KJV)." Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! This would be similar to my predicting that their would never again be an American elected President of the United States, and having it actually come true." http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm Nonsense. As many of us have pointed out to you, Pharaoh Amasis survived Nebuchadnezzars attempt to invade Egypt. Not only that, after the Persian conquest of Egypt, the Egyptians revolted, successfully drove out the Persians and instituted a new native dynasty. Here are the native Egyptian pharaohs of the 30th. dynasty who ruled at that time (source: Peter A. Clayton Chronicle of the Pharaohs 1994 Thames and Hudson, p. 201): Amyrtaeus 404 - 399 BCE Nepherites 399 - 393 Hakor 393 - 380 Nectanebo I 380 - 362 Teos 362 - 360 Nectanebo II 362 - 343 In 343 the Persians reconquered Egypt and held it until 332, a period of 11 years, until Alexander the Great took it. You have arbitrarily excluded the Ptolemies because of their Greek origins, even though they ruled from Egypt. Tell me, are you willing also to exclude the 22nd. and 23d. dynasties of Egypt (945 - 757 BCE) because they were founded by Libyan invaders? If so, perhaps we should also exclude the 25th. dynasty (747 - 656), since its founders were Nubians. Of course, these dynasties preceded Ezekiel's prophecy, just as the native 30th. dynasty post-dated it.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,211	Last edited by TimCallahan; 20th June 2012 at 08:28 AM.

20th June 2012, 08:27 AM	#3230
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,211	Originally Posted by DOC Here is what Young's Literal translation of the Hebrew text says: Eze 30:10 Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have caused the multitude of Egypt to cease, By the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, Eze 30:11 He and his people with him -- the terrible of nations, Are brought in to destroy the land, And they have drawn their swords against Egypt, And have filled the land [with] the wounded. Eze 30:12 And I have made floods a dry place, And I have sold the land into the hand of evil doers, And I have made desolate the land, And its fulness, by the hand of strangers, I, Jehovah, have spoken. ___ Notice verse 30:11 just says the nations filled the land with wounded, which is certainly likely with a guy like Nebuchadnezzar invading the land. And cease could mean stop their normal life, especially when the next verse only talks of wounded. Also notice where it says "I have made floods a dry place". That is different from drying up the Nile. On the other hand even today the Nile is drying up according to various articles. Note that, in the hilited area, it says that Nebuchadrezzar would destroy the land of Egypt. Again, as we have pointed out to you, there's no archaeological support for this. As to translating a certain word as either "killed" or "wounded", according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible ( hereafter referred to a Strong's) the word, which the KJV translates as "slain" is, in the original Hebrew, chalal, a root that means to pierce, wound, kill, pollute or profane. Such is the imprecision of Hebrew that one can play fast and loose with the translation, so long as one ignores context. In the context of Ezekiel's prophecy of Nebuchadrezzar destroying Egypt, filling the land with the slain is the more likely translation. It is no more or less "literal" than Young's version. Young's version does, however, allow you to split hairs.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,211

20th June 2012, 09:02 AM	#3231
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Akhenaten O rly? http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Cairo.jpg OMG, it's a dustbowl! . That's hydrated dust.

20th June 2012, 10:35 AM	#3232
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,035	Originally Posted by Akhenaten That was probably a more obvious choice, but . . . Barbara Eden. http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...6f980c282e.gif ... and now I'm at home and have had a chance to watch all of it, I can't help wondering if MC Hammer has seen that routine.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

20th June 2012, 11:17 AM	#3233
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,978	Okay so... did I miss something ? Did DOC finally give us some fulfilled prophecies ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za. "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey

20th June 2012, 11:24 AM	#3234
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Belz... Okay so... did I miss something ? Did DOC finally give us some fulfilled prophecies ? . That's not the way you spell what he's given us... too many letters... "more ....", the same'ol, same'ol.

20th June 2012, 11:26 AM	#3235
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Belz... Okay so... did I miss something ? Did DOC finally give us some fulfilled prophecies ? Nope. Come back next year when the long service medals for devotion above and beyond the call of duty and valiant participation in this endless thread will be handed out by the Pharaoh.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 20th June 2012 at 11:27 AM.

20th June 2012, 10:34 PM	#3236
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by DOC Yea, but they were from Greece, and were ruling over Egypt because of the victories of the Greek army. ...Twenty-five hundred years have passed since this prophecy, and during this period of time not one of its numerous ruling princes were Egyptian! Nice try, DOC. I'll give you that. Yes, changes of dynasty often involve armies, I'll grant you. But tell me, don't you find it odd that after Nebu 'filled' the lad with wounded and so on, the dynasties continued? As Tim Callahan pointed out: Originally Posted by TimCallahan ...Pharaoh Amasis survived Nebuchadnezzars attempt to invade Egypt. Not only that, after the Persian conquest of Egypt, the Egyptians revolted, successfully drove out the Persians and instituted a new native dynasty. Here are the native Egyptian pharaohs of the 30th. dynasty who ruled at that time (source: Peter A. Clayton Chronicle of the Pharaohs 1994 Thames and Hudson, p. 201): Amyrtaeus 404 - 399 BCE Nepherites 399 - 393 Hakor 393 - 380 Nectanebo I 380 - 362 Teos 362 - 360 Nectanebo II 362 - 343 In 343 the Persians reconquered Egypt and held it until 332, a period of 11 years, until Alexander the Great took it. You have arbitrarily excluded the Ptolemies because of their Greek origins, even though they ruled from Egypt. Tell me, are you willing also to exclude the 22nd. and 23d. dynasties of Egypt (945 - 757 BCE) because they were founded by Libyan invaders? If so, perhaps we should also exclude the 25th. dynasty (747 - 656), since its founders were Nubians. Of course, these dynasties preceded Ezekiel's prophecy, just as the native 30th. dynasty post-dated it. We all know what to think when a 'psychic' performer tries to back-pedal and retro-fit failed prophecies and 'messages' from the dead. Do you really think it is becoming to do much the same here? You are scraping the bottom of the barrel to create the illusion there are fulfilled prophecies in the bible.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

21st June 2012, 03:43 AM	#3238
Multivac Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,003	Originally Posted by dafydd Nope. Come back next year when the long service medals for devotion above and beyond the call of duty and valiant participation in this endless thread will be handed out by the Pharaoh. Cool. Will the ceremony be televised?
Multivac Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,003