Son taken in

surbahar · 21st September 2003, 09:41 AM

My son, age 14, has spent some years listening to Art Bell. I thought it harmless fun. I sometimes listen and consider it like ghost stories told around the campfire when I was a boyschout. I was wrong. He now has some pretty goofy ideas. He claims he doesn't believe 85% of what the show talks of, but still believes in Jupiter blowing up, the power of George Nori(SP?) to change the path of hurricanes, and has a beyond healthy distrust of our government and all they are hiding from us.

I have printed out some pages debunking some of his beliefs, but to him it is one scientist's word against the other.

At his age banning him from listening seems odd, but last year a teacher told us the other kids consider him pretty odd when he shares his beliefs in class. He doesn't seem to care.

Any thoughts or recommendations?

Bryan
Seattle

arcticpenguin · 21st September 2003, 09:59 AM

Actually right now is a good time not to trust the government, but let's not get into that...

My first question would be whether he really believes that carp or is just posturing to make himself seem interesting. He's at that age where kids will dress as goths, listen to rude music, etc. as a form of rebellion.

There are some good books out there, such as Fads & Fallacies by Martin Gardner and Flim Flam by James Randi which treat various topics from a skeptical perspective. The hope is that they would go beyond the specifics of the cases treated, and instill a healthy skeptical viewpoint in the reader.

You could search the forum for threads on the specific topis you mention, e.g Jupiter blowing up, George Nori. If there are no threads, you could start some, and then steer your son to them. Quite frankly I'm not familiar with either of those examples.

Chris Haynes · 21st September 2003, 11:21 AM

Hi Bryan! It is me, Pat's mom (by the way your son did not call back yesterday... we did a bit of soccer driving around, so we could have dropped Pat off at your house --- I'll see you Tuesday, they are in the same math class).

We don't even listen to Art Bell around here, and we have a similar problem with Pat. He wants to believe in aliens, that Star Trek is true... etc. One saving grace is that he insists on watching NOVA every Tuesday.

All that I have been able to do is explain to him why it does not work. Dear hubby and I have spent quite a time trying to convince the 13 year old why horoscopes have no basis in reality. I figure coming back with some forms of logic is usually best.

I just returned Phil Plait's book Bad Astronomy to the library. You might try getting for your son this Christmas (or sooner). It is a great read. Here is his website:
http://www.badastronomy.com

I'll see you around

Chris Haynes · 21st September 2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by surbahar
...believes in Jupiter blowing up,...

Might check to see if Jupiter is still here:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...r_galileo.html

I believe it still intact. By the way, Pat's combo birthday/Christmas present was a new telescope. We found Mars... if Jupiter has blown up, the we would definitely see it.

Chaos · 21st September 2003, 01:00 PM

Dear surbahar,

if you´re considering some book as a present for your son, I have two other titles to propose. They´re books by Carl Sagan (don´t know if you´ve heard of him; an astronomer, used to be in TV a lot while he was still alive).

The first, and definitely more worthwhile in this case, is "Demon-Haunted World" - I´m not so sure about the English title, I read the German translation a long time ago. It is written in a very entertaining way, and deals with science as a whole, and how to tell science from pseudo-science; it also has several chapters on politics and how a basic understanding of science can help people not be fooled by politicians.
The second book is "Billions and Billions"; yet more about science and politics, the same entertaining style. Sagan was one of the few sciencists I ever knew who could teach without being boring.

And, by the way, I agree that this might be a way of rebelling for your son - one of these "phases" teenagers tend to have. I know that. I had mine from 13 or 14 to about 20. Then "Demon-Haunted World" cured me - so you should really give this book a try.

reprise · 21st September 2003, 01:32 PM

First of all, your son is perfectly normal.

If you surveyed the students at the school you'd find a large number of them are currently into astrology, numerology, "natural healing", witchcraft, and "the evil gummint" conspiracy theories.

The only thing I'd do is make sure your son has available a wide range of entertaining resources which outline the skeptical viewpoint.

Look for radio stations who have regular guests presenting spots on science, religion and philosophy and health issues. We are very fortunate here in having a youth oriented publicly owned radio station (Triple J rocks) which sandwiches a great many informative and entertaining guests in between its music.

Has your son seen the documentary A Brief History of Time? The possibilities of real science are far more entertaining than anything Art Bell ever dreamed of. The British, in particularly, make extremely high quality, entertaining programmes addressing scientific issues. I often see people referring to these programmes, so I assume that they must be available on pay TV in the US.

If you can overlook Karl Kruszelnicki's obsession with farts, his website and messageboard are worth a look.

Yahweh · 21st September 2003, 01:40 PM

Plenty of kids go through their "Psychic" phase. Hasnt everyone at one time or another entertained their fantasies by believing they can predict the future, or have telekenisis, or believed in God *evil grin*...

Your son will grow out of it, just make sure he doesnt go diluted. Hey, maybe you could get an advanced copy of Lucianarchy's "What Science Can't Explain" book...

reprise · 21st September 2003, 02:28 PM

I should probably warn you that the website and messageboard I linked to above is hosted on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation servers and that there are links provided to other forums hosted on the same servers - such as the Doing Drugs with Paul Dillon forum.

American · 21st September 2003, 05:21 PM

I think Art Bell is only a ringmaster; he ain't a freak, he just exhibits them.

And why not.

surbahar · 21st September 2003, 10:36 PM

Thanks to all for the thoughts.. and good ones they are. I will look at those books.. and more importantly.. breath deeply and count to ten.

Nice also to see that Jupiter didn't blow up. ;-)

And hi to Pat's mom.... what a small world.

Bryan

Eos of the Eons · 23rd September 2003, 05:55 PM

Jupitor blowing up

And how? WTH?

RCNelson · 23rd September 2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Eos of the Eons:
Jupitor blowing up And how? WTH?

The woowoos were saying that the Galileo spacecraft would cause Jupiter to explode when it plunged into Jupiter's atmosphere.

See http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...r_galileo.html

Eos of the Eons · 23rd September 2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RCNelson

The woowoos were saying that the Galileo spacecraft would cause Jupiter to explode when it plunged into Jupiter's atmosphere.

See http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...r_galileo.html

Thanks

Quote:

Like a meteor, it'll burn up in the dense atmosphere, and become a part of the solar system's largest planet.

Why can't people understand that? It's not like Galileo is a nuclear bomb the size of the sun for &$&#$^

Quote:

However, this radiation has to be charged particles. Only charged particles are accelerated by magnetic fields. In other words, neutrons, which are neutral, need not apply. So the basis of the claim that somehow Pu 238 will go to Pu 239 is already wrong because there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for it to happen, but it's also wrong because there aren't any neutrons out there to do it. So there is no way that the RTGs onboard Galileo have Pu239 on them, and no way to explode.

Oh, one more thing before moving on. In the quote above, Goliathan calls the RTGs "reactors". They are not reactors. They are simply containers holding a radioactive material, which is slowly decaying and producing heat. Calling the RTGs reactors is like calling your fireplace a reactor. It's a word meant to push buttons. It's also sleight of hand: he says that Pu 239 can be created in reactors, so he uses that word to describe RTGs. That's more than misleading. It looks more like lying to me.

.

Kilted_Canuck · 24th September 2003, 09:15 PM

Yep, I went through that phase a few years ago(and still have the woowoo children's books to prove it). Show him www.csicop.org , www.skepdic.com, www.skeptic.com, or any of the other good skeptical resources on the internet.

21st September 2003, 09:41 AM	#1
surbahar New Blood Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2	Son taken in My son, age 14, has spent some years listening to Art Bell. I thought it harmless fun. I sometimes listen and consider it like ghost stories told around the campfire when I was a boyschout. I was wrong. He now has some pretty goofy ideas. He claims he doesn't believe 85% of what the show talks of, but still believes in Jupiter blowing up, the power of George Nori(SP?) to change the path of hurricanes, and has a beyond healthy distrust of our government and all they are hiding from us. I have printed out some pages debunking some of his beliefs, but to him it is one scientist's word against the other. At his age banning him from listening seems odd, but last year a teacher told us the other kids consider him pretty odd when he shares his beliefs in class. He doesn't seem to care. Any thoughts or recommendations? Bryan Seattle
surbahar New Blood Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2

21st September 2003, 09:59 AM	#2
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Actually right now is a good time not to trust the government, but let's not get into that... My first question would be whether he really believes that carp or is just posturing to make himself seem interesting. He's at that age where kids will dress as goths, listen to rude music, etc. as a form of rebellion. There are some good books out there, such as Fads & Fallacies by Martin Gardner and Flim Flam by James Randi which treat various topics from a skeptical perspective. The hope is that they would go beyond the specifics of the cases treated, and instill a healthy skeptical viewpoint in the reader. You could search the forum for threads on the specific topis you mention, e.g Jupiter blowing up, George Nori. If there are no threads, you could start some, and then steer your son to them. Quite frankly I'm not familiar with either of those examples.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

21st September 2003, 11:21 AM	#3
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,204	Hi Bryan! It is me, Pat's mom (by the way your son did not call back yesterday... we did a bit of soccer driving around, so we could have dropped Pat off at your house --- I'll see you Tuesday, they are in the same math class). We don't even listen to Art Bell around here, and we have a similar problem with Pat. He wants to believe in aliens, that Star Trek is true... etc. One saving grace is that he insists on watching NOVA every Tuesday. All that I have been able to do is explain to him why it does not work. Dear hubby and I have spent quite a time trying to convince the 13 year old why horoscopes have no basis in reality. I figure coming back with some forms of logic is usually best. I just returned Phil Plait's book Bad Astronomy to the library. You might try getting for your son this Christmas (or sooner). It is a great read. Here is his website: http://www.badastronomy.com I'll see you around
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

21st September 2003, 11:29 AM	#4
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,204	Re: Son taken in Quote: Originally posted by surbahar ...believes in Jupiter blowing up,... Might check to see if Jupiter is still here: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...r_galileo.html I believe it still intact. By the way, Pat's combo birthday/Christmas present was a new telescope. We found Mars... if Jupiter has blown up, the we would definitely see it.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

21st September 2003, 01:00 PM	#5
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Dear surbahar, if you´re considering some book as a present for your son, I have two other titles to propose. They´re books by Carl Sagan (don´t know if you´ve heard of him; an astronomer, used to be in TV a lot while he was still alive). The first, and definitely more worthwhile in this case, is "Demon-Haunted World" - I´m not so sure about the English title, I read the German translation a long time ago. It is written in a very entertaining way, and deals with science as a whole, and how to tell science from pseudo-science; it also has several chapters on politics and how a basic understanding of science can help people not be fooled by politicians. The second book is "Billions and Billions"; yet more about science and politics, the same entertaining style. Sagan was one of the few sciencists I ever knew who could teach without being boring. And, by the way, I agree that this might be a way of rebelling for your son - one of these "phases" teenagers tend to have. I know that. I had mine from 13 or 14 to about 20. Then "Demon-Haunted World" cured me - so you should really give this book a try.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

21st September 2003, 01:32 PM	#6
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	First of all, your son is perfectly normal. If you surveyed the students at the school you'd find a large number of them are currently into astrology, numerology, "natural healing", witchcraft, and "the evil gummint" conspiracy theories. The only thing I'd do is make sure your son has available a wide range of entertaining resources which outline the skeptical viewpoint. Look for radio stations who have regular guests presenting spots on science, religion and philosophy and health issues. We are very fortunate here in having a youth oriented publicly owned radio station (Triple J rocks) which sandwiches a great many informative and entertaining guests in between its music. Has your son seen the documentary A Brief History of Time? The possibilities of real science are far more entertaining than anything Art Bell ever dreamed of. The British, in particularly, make extremely high quality, entertaining programmes addressing scientific issues. I often see people referring to these programmes, so I assume that they must be available on pay TV in the US. If you can overlook Karl Kruszelnicki's obsession with farts, his website and messageboard are worth a look.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

21st September 2003, 01:40 PM	#7
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Plenty of kids go through their "Psychic" phase. Hasnt everyone at one time or another entertained their fantasies by believing they can predict the future, or have telekenisis, or believed in God evil grin... Your son will grow out of it, just make sure he doesnt go diluted. Hey, maybe you could get an advanced copy of Lucianarchy's "What Science Can't Explain" book...
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

21st September 2003, 02:28 PM	#8
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	I should probably warn you that the website and messageboard I linked to above is hosted on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation servers and that there are links provided to other forums hosted on the same servers - such as the Doing Drugs with Paul Dillon forum.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

21st September 2003, 05:21 PM	#9
American Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: CA Posts: 3,842	I think Art Bell is only a ringmaster; he ain't a freak, he just exhibits them. And why not.

21st September 2003, 10:36 PM	#10
surbahar New Blood Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2	Thanks to all for the thoughts.. and good ones they are. I will look at those books.. and more importantly.. breath deeply and count to ten. Nice also to see that Jupiter didn't blow up. ;-) And hi to Pat's mom.... what a small world. Bryan
surbahar New Blood Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2	__________________ Bryan Seattke

23rd September 2003, 05:55 PM	#11
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Jupitor blowing up And how? WTH?
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

23rd September 2003, 06:34 PM	#12
RCNelson Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 397	Quote: Eos of the Eons: Jupitor blowing up And how? WTH? The woowoos were saying that the Galileo spacecraft would cause Jupiter to explode when it plunged into Jupiter's atmosphere. See http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...r_galileo.html
RCNelson Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 397	__________________ A point in every direction is the same as no point at all

23rd September 2003, 06:37 PM	#13
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Quote: Originally posted by RCNelson The woowoos were saying that the Galileo spacecraft would cause Jupiter to explode when it plunged into Jupiter's atmosphere. See http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...r_galileo.html Thanks Quote: Like a meteor, it'll burn up in the dense atmosphere, and become a part of the solar system's largest planet. Why can't people understand that? It's not like Galileo is a nuclear bomb the size of the sun for &$&#$^ Quote: However, this radiation has to be charged particles. Only charged particles are accelerated by magnetic fields. In other words, neutrons, which are neutral, need not apply. So the basis of the claim that somehow Pu 238 will go to Pu 239 is already wrong because there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for it to happen, but it's also wrong because there aren't any neutrons out there to do it. So there is no way that the RTGs onboard Galileo have Pu239 on them, and no way to explode. Oh, one more thing before moving on. In the quote above, Goliathan calls the RTGs "reactors". They are not reactors. They are simply containers holding a radioactive material, which is slowly decaying and producing heat. Calling the RTGs reactors is like calling your fireplace a reactor. It's a word meant to push buttons. It's also sleight of hand: he says that Pu 239 can be created in reactors, so he uses that word to describe RTGs. That's more than misleading. It looks more like lying to me. .
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

24th September 2003, 09:15 PM	#14
Kilted_Canuck MaterialistPatriotic AgnosticSocialistNaieve Saskatchewanian RadicalCanuckistani Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 1,377	Yep, I went through that phase a few years ago(and still have the woowoo children's books to prove it). Show him www.csicop.org , www.skepdic.com, www.skeptic.com, or any of the other good skeptical resources on the internet.